Oh boy Grimal surely made the usual suspects very angry.
*Hands Grimal a shield*
Not my intention at all. I am just giving my opinion. Any are free to disagree with me.
But that is the problem here. They won't simply diagree with you but make back handed insults and personal remarks to undermine your opinion. it is bound to happen when you see these two or three names startign to post.
It deserves accolades for being a great game (I firmly believe that).
But being a long-time MMORPG player, this game is not an MMORPG. So to give it any praise as that is simply underserving.
It's like saying "Pulp Fiction" is a brilliant comedy. Brilliant film, yes. Comedy? May have some elements but that hardly makes it one.
It's much more of a mmo than, say, SWTOR. I wonder what exactly defines a mmo in some people's minds, monthly subscription, lol? It's at least as much a mmo as a WoW is, and if you don't consider WoW a mmo, then...
I do consider WoW an MMORPG. GW2 I do not. For me it lacks too many RPG elements to be considered one. Hence, I would call it an MMO but not an MMORPG.
It is an MMORPG, no matter what your opinion is. That is fact.
No, it is not a Sandbox and if yo only call those MMORPG's, then you are missing a huge amount of games.
WoW and GW2 have many traits that are similar, so calling one an MMORPG and the other not, is just your bias and not reality.
It's not a fact that it's an MMORPG. If it is, what scientific law has declared it as such? Just because ANET wants to call it that doesn't mean it's true.
I do not consider it an MMORPG. If I did, I'd probably have to consider Diablo 3 an MMORPG as well since they both share a great deal of similarities.
I've been playing RPGs, starting with table top ones, for over 30 years now (I was like 12 or 13 when I played my first pen and paper session), and character progression (aka "spreadsheet gaming") has NEVER been the main or even a major part of a RPG. A RPG is a Role Playing Game, not Microsoft Excel made into a game. Some of the PnP RPGs I've played didn't even have character stats.
Computer gamers have been made to believe that raising numbers in an infinite hamster wheel driven carrot chase is the main element of a RPG. That has not always been true, and several MMORPGs like UO and AC1 have never been about that. It's EQ, WoW and clones which brainwashed "us" into thinking that was the only way to play a MMORPG.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
It deserves accolades for being a great game (I firmly believe that).
But being a long-time MMORPG player, this game is not an MMORPG. So to give it any praise as that is simply underserving.
It's like saying "Pulp Fiction" is a brilliant comedy. Brilliant film, yes. Comedy? May have some elements but that hardly makes it one.
It's much more of a mmo than, say, SWTOR. I wonder what exactly defines a mmo in some people's minds, monthly subscription, lol? It's at least as much a mmo as a WoW is, and if you don't consider WoW a mmo, then...
I do consider WoW an MMORPG. GW2 I do not. For me it lacks too many RPG elements to be considered one. Hence, I would call it an MMO but not an MMORPG.
It is an MMORPG, no matter what your opinion is. That is fact.
No, it is not a Sandbox and if yo only call those MMORPG's, then you are missing a huge amount of games.
WoW and GW2 have many traits that are similar, so calling one an MMORPG and the other not, is just your bias and not reality.
It's not a fact that it's an MMORPG. If it is, what scientific law has declared it as such? Just because ANET wants to call it that doesn't mean it's true.
I do not consider it an MMORPG. If I did, I'd probably have to consider Diablo 3 an MMORPG as well since they both share a great deal of similarities.
diablo 3 is a gear grinding single/co-op rpg..how does it have similarities with guild wars 2? Do you even read what you type? Yes it is a fact that guild wars 2 is an MMOPRG.
Oh boy Grimal surely made the usual suspects very angry.
*Hands Grimal a shield*
Not my intention at all. I am just giving my opinion. Any are free to disagree with me.
You're opinion is wrong, guild wars 2 might not be to your taste but like it or not it is still an MMORPG.
And I think you're wrong. So where does that leave us?
RPGs have traditioneally always been about character progression and advancement. GW2 has streamlined this feature so much that it is virtually nonexistent.
Let me put it this way: if I remove the cheese from a cheese dish, is it still a cheese dish? I'd argue not. That's the point I am trying to make. GW2 has removed the very cheese from it's dish. Hence, I don't consider it one any more.
It deserves accolades for being a great game (I firmly believe that).
But being a long-time MMORPG player, this game is not an MMORPG. So to give it any praise as that is simply underserving.
It's like saying "Pulp Fiction" is a brilliant comedy. Brilliant film, yes. Comedy? May have some elements but that hardly makes it one.
It's much more of a mmo than, say, SWTOR. I wonder what exactly defines a mmo in some people's minds, monthly subscription, lol? It's at least as much a mmo as a WoW is, and if you don't consider WoW a mmo, then...
I do consider WoW an MMORPG. GW2 I do not. For me it lacks too many RPG elements to be considered one. Hence, I would call it an MMO but not an MMORPG.
It is an MMORPG, no matter what your opinion is. That is fact.
No, it is not a Sandbox and if yo only call those MMORPG's, then you are missing a huge amount of games.
WoW and GW2 have many traits that are similar, so calling one an MMORPG and the other not, is just your bias and not reality.
It's not a fact that it's an MMORPG. If it is, what scientific law has declared it as such? Just because ANET wants to call it that doesn't mean it's true.
I do not consider it an MMORPG. If I did, I'd probably have to consider Diablo 3 an MMORPG as well since they both share a great deal of similarities.
diablo 3 is a gear grinding single/co-op rpg..how does it have similarities with guild wars 2? Do you even read what you type? Yes it is a fact that guild wars 2 is an MMOPRG.
How are they so different?
Aside from the isometric perspective of the first and the limitation of 4 characters working together, I believe they are more similar than you are apt to admit.
GW2 is an evolution of GW1. GW1 is basically, for all intensive purposes, a more story-driven Diablo-type game (I am only talking the PVE side here). So by simply expanding the population of areas and changing the persepective, does it suddenly become a different genre altogether? No.
And Diablo 3 is an online-only game (as far as I played it last).
Oh boy Grimal surely made the usual suspects very angry.
*Hands Grimal a shield*
Not my intention at all. I am just giving my opinion. Any are free to disagree with me.
You're opinion is wrong, guild wars 2 might not be to your taste but like it or not it is still an MMORPG.
And I think you're wrong. So where does that leave us?
RPGs have traditioneally always been about character progression and advancement. GW2 has streamlined this feature so much that it is virtually nonexistent.
Let me put it this way: if I remove the cheese from a cheese dish, is it still a cheese dish? I'd argue not. That's the point I am trying to make. GW2 has removed the very cheese from it's dish. Hence, I don't consider it one any more.
So leveling a character is not progression? getting traits and skill points to improve your character is not progression? getting exotic and legendary armour is not progression? doing dungeons and getting rewards is not progression? exploring and unlocking the maps is not progression? getting pvp gear and ranks is not progression? So then tell me what is progression? you just compared guild wars 2 to diablo 3, are you saying diablo 3 is not an rpg either?
Originally posted by Piiritus Well, in my very own very personal opinion GW2 is extremely shallow and mediocre game. Most Western MMOs are better than GW2 imo, even the old ones.
Shallow and mediocre compared to what MMO?
Compared to most Western MMOs as I said. GW2 story is so generic and bad that it feels like written by 12 yo for his/her classmates. As a PvEr I don't care much about PvP but still like to do it occasionally but this zergfest GW2 style isn't even PvP, it's just...zergfest. Honestly after the first area I had seen almost everything. Got my skills by level 5 and that was it. Every zone afterwards was copypaste from previous with an exception of killing bandits in one and washing or feeding cows in another. This is my opinon of course but for me personally GW2 is The Mediocricy.
Oh boy Grimal surely made the usual suspects very angry.
*Hands Grimal a shield*
Not my intention at all. I am just giving my opinion. Any are free to disagree with me.
You're opinion is wrong, guild wars 2 might not be to your taste but like it or not it is still an MMORPG.
And I think you're wrong. So where does that leave us?
RPGs have traditioneally always been about character progression and advancement. GW2 has streamlined this feature so much that it is virtually nonexistent.
Let me put it this way: if I remove the cheese from a cheese dish, is it still a cheese dish? I'd argue not. That's the point I am trying to make. GW2 has removed the very cheese from it's dish. Hence, I don't consider it one any more.
So leveling a character is not progression? getting traits and skill points to improve your character is not progression? getting exotic and legendary armour is not progression? doing dungeons and getting rewards is not progression? exploring and unlocking the maps is not progression? So then tell me what is progression? you just compared guild wars 2 to diablo 3, are you saying diablo 3 is not an rpg either?
When the ingredients of this "progression" become almost meaningless, then the progression itself becomes meaningless. Hence, there really is none.
Edit: No, I don't consider Diablo 3 an RPG. I'd call it a coop dungeon crawler type game. If someone were to come to me and say, "hey, I'm looking for a good RPG. Can you recommend one?", Diablo 3 would not come to mind.
Originally posted by Piiritus Well, in my very own very personal opinion GW2 is extremely shallow and mediocre game. Most Western MMOs are better than GW2 imo, even the old ones.
Shallow and mediocre compared to what MMO?
Compared to most Western MMOs as I said. GW2 story is so generic and bad that it feels like written by 12 yo for his/her classmates. As a PvEr I don't care much about PvP but still like to do it occasionally but this zergfest GW2 style isn't even PvP, it's just...zergfest. Honestly after the first area I had seen almost everything. Got my skills by level 5 and that was it. Every zone afterwards was copypaste from previous with an exception of killing bandits in one and washing or feeding cows in another. This is my opinon of course but for me personally GW2 is The Mediocricy.
Oh boy Grimal surely made the usual suspects very angry.
*Hands Grimal a shield*
Not my intention at all. I am just giving my opinion. Any are free to disagree with me.
You're opinion is wrong, guild wars 2 might not be to your taste but like it or not it is still an MMORPG.
And I think you're wrong. So where does that leave us?
RPGs have traditioneally always been about character progression and advancement. GW2 has streamlined this feature so much that it is virtually nonexistent.
Let me put it this way: if I remove the cheese from a cheese dish, is it still a cheese dish? I'd argue not. That's the point I am trying to make. GW2 has removed the very cheese from it's dish. Hence, I don't consider it one any more.
So leveling a character is not progression? getting traits and skill points to improve your character is not progression? getting exotic and legendary armour is not progression? doing dungeons and getting rewards is not progression? exploring and unlocking the maps is not progression? So then tell me what is progression? you just compared guild wars 2 to diablo 3, are you saying diablo 3 is not an rpg either?
When the ingredients of this "progression" become almost meaningless, then the progression itself becomes meaningless. Hence, there really is none.
at the end of the day anything you do in an mmo is meaningless.
Oh boy Grimal surely made the usual suspects very angry.
*Hands Grimal a shield*
Not my intention at all. I am just giving my opinion. Any are free to disagree with me.
You're opinion is wrong, guild wars 2 might not be to your taste but like it or not it is still an MMORPG.
And I think you're wrong. So where does that leave us?
RPGs have traditioneally always been about character progression and advancement. GW2 has streamlined this feature so much that it is virtually nonexistent.
Let me put it this way: if I remove the cheese from a cheese dish, is it still a cheese dish? I'd argue not. That's the point I am trying to make. GW2 has removed the very cheese from it's dish. Hence, I don't consider it one any more.
So leveling a character is not progression? getting traits and skill points to improve your character is not progression? getting exotic and legendary armour is not progression? doing dungeons and getting rewards is not progression? exploring and unlocking the maps is not progression? So then tell me what is progression? you just compared guild wars 2 to diablo 3, are you saying diablo 3 is not an rpg either?
When the ingredients of this "progression" become almost meaningless, then the progression itself becomes meaningless. Hence, there really is none.
at the end of the day anything you do in an mmo is meaningless.
Yes, true. But we are not talking about the grand scheme of things. We are discussing within the confines of the game.
Originally posted by Piiritus Well, in my very own very personal opinion GW2 is extremely shallow and mediocre game. Most Western MMOs are better than GW2 imo, even the old ones.
Shallow and mediocre compared to what MMO?
Compared to most Western MMOs as I said. GW2 story is so generic and bad that it feels like written by 12 yo for his/her classmates. As a PvEr I don't care much about PvP but still like to do it occasionally but this zergfest GW2 style isn't even PvP, it's just...zergfest. Honestly after the first area I had seen almost everything. Got my skills by level 5 and that was it. Every zone afterwards was copypaste from previous with an exception of killing bandits in one and washing or feeding cows in another. This is my opinon of course but for me personally GW2 is The Mediocricy.
So what mmo do you currently play then?
I play TSW for it's atmosphere and story behind the quests and what my character does there. Also have GW2 on my HDD but skipping every single dialogue and story element there not to torture myself with that. Mind, I'm not saying that TSW is something everyone should like and most don't anyway, I'm saying that in my opinion GW2 is a very shallow and mediocre game.
Originally posted by Piiritus Well, in my very own very personal opinion GW2 is extremely shallow and mediocre game. Most Western MMOs are better than GW2 imo, even the old ones.
Shallow and mediocre compared to what MMO?
Compared to most Western MMOs as I said. GW2 story is so generic and bad that it feels like written by 12 yo for his/her classmates. As a PvEr I don't care much about PvP but still like to do it occasionally but this zergfest GW2 style isn't even PvP, it's just...zergfest. Honestly after the first area I had seen almost everything. Got my skills by level 5 and that was it. Every zone afterwards was copypaste from previous with an exception of killing bandits in one and washing or feeding cows in another. This is my opinon of course but for me personally GW2 is The Mediocricy.
No, you didnt. You may have had your weapon skills, but you did not have your utilities, elites, or traits, and most likely only had 1 of several heal skills available to your class.
Saying you had all your skills at 5 is like playing EQ2 and only getting your normal skills, completely ignoring the AA system and never spending any points and then claiming "I have all the skills in EQ2".
It still amazes me that this concept is so hard to grasp for some people. You have only completed gaining 1 TYPE of skill. Not EVERY skill. This shit isnt rocket science people.
GW2 has been out long enough for the fans to form a solid opinion on the game. How do you feel about the critcal aclaim that the game has gotten from many reviews & game sites? Were they right on the money, or hyped up dramatically? Few examples below, but the list goes on.
G4 - Best MMO Game of 2012
JeuxVideo - Guild Wars 2 isn't a simple sequel, this MMO is a revolution!
PC Gamer #207 - groundbreaking world events and mind-blowing class design
VG247 UK - Ridiculous attention to details... shockingly good
Quarter to Three - This isn't just a great example of the genre and arguably the Second Coming of MMOs.
Gamer.nl - After years of EverQuest clones the genre finally makes a great leap forward.
I think the Overhype Train has been chugging along for far too long.
However, the game has been out for almost 2 months now, so we have the benefit of reading un-biased player experiences to counter the fanaticism. There is also much to be said for wading in and seeing if YOU like the game. At the end of the day, I don't give a rat's butt how many reviewer's liked or disliked GW2; for myself, its definitly not living up the overhype and I've gone back to my other MMO.
Oh boy Grimal surely made the usual suspects very angry.
*Hands Grimal a shield*
Not my intention at all. I am just giving my opinion. Any are free to disagree with me.
You're opinion is wrong, guild wars 2 might not be to your taste but like it or not it is still an MMORPG.
And I think you're wrong. So where does that leave us?
RPGs have traditioneally always been about character progression and advancement. GW2 has streamlined this feature so much that it is virtually nonexistent.
Let me put it this way: if I remove the cheese from a cheese dish, is it still a cheese dish? I'd argue not. That's the point I am trying to make. GW2 has removed the very cheese from it's dish. Hence, I don't consider it one any more.
So leveling a character is not progression? getting traits and skill points to improve your character is not progression? getting exotic and legendary armour is not progression? doing dungeons and getting rewards is not progression? exploring and unlocking the maps is not progression? getting pvp gear and ranks is not progression? So then tell me what is progression? you just compared guild wars 2 to diablo 3, are you saying diablo 3 is not an rpg either?
Just block grimal. They don't know anything about the game and it's likely they will never have anything of value to say about anything.
I'm explaining my argument and my way of thinking. If you do not want to partake in discussions that challenge a belief of yours and find the only solution is to "block" that person, then what are you doing on discussion forums?
Originally posted by grimal For me, an MMORPG must have RPG elements. Namely, a character that I assume in a greater story which progresses throughout. Raiding has nothing to do with it.
How does GW2 not do this? You have a story, and your character progresses through that story. You might not like the story, or choose to not play that story, but that doesn't mean the story doesn't exist. There's a bunch of little stories in the pseudo-open world and an overall world story involving keeping the stereotypical dragon from eating the world or something.
I don't see the huge draw of GW2 and it honestly surprises me. I played in the beta and thought, "Meh, I can live without this". I can still see the progression elements in the game though. You progress through the world, through your character's level, the personal story and the ridiculous grind for legendary weapons. I think it's all there. It's an RPG and it's an MMO.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Piiritus Well, in my very own very personal opinion GW2 is extremely shallow and mediocre game. Most Western MMOs are better than GW2 imo, even the old ones.
Shallow and mediocre compared to what MMO?
Compared to most Western MMOs as I said. GW2 story is so generic and bad that it feels like written by 12 yo for his/her classmates. As a PvEr I don't care much about PvP but still like to do it occasionally but this zergfest GW2 style isn't even PvP, it's just...zergfest. Honestly after the first area I had seen almost everything. Got my skills by level 5 and that was it. Every zone afterwards was copypaste from previous with an exception of killing bandits in one and washing or feeding cows in another. This is my opinon of course but for me personally GW2 is The Mediocricy.
So what mmo do you currently play then?
I play TSW for it's atmosphere and story behind the quests and what my character does there. Also have GW2 on my HDD but skipping every single dialogue and story element there not to torture myself with that. Mind, I'm not saying that TSW is something everyone should like and most don't anyway, I'm saying that in my opinion GW2 is a very shallow and mediocre game.
Well i found TSW to be very mediocre with terrible animations, really boring pvp and im not of fan of end game raiding mmo's. so each to their own.
It deserves accolades for being a great game (I firmly believe that).
But being a long-time MMORPG player, this game is not an MMORPG. So to give it any praise as that is simply underserving.
It's like saying "Pulp Fiction" is a brilliant comedy. Brilliant film, yes. Comedy? May have some elements but that hardly makes it one.
It's much more of a mmo than, say, SWTOR. I wonder what exactly defines a mmo in some people's minds, monthly subscription, lol? It's at least as much a mmo as a WoW is, and if you don't consider WoW a mmo, then...
I do consider WoW an MMORPG. GW2 I do not. For me it lacks too many RPG elements to be considered one. Hence, I would call it an MMO but not an MMORPG.
It is an MMORPG, no matter what your opinion is. That is fact.
No, it is not a Sandbox and if yo only call those MMORPG's, then you are missing a huge amount of games.
WoW and GW2 have many traits that are similar, so calling one an MMORPG and the other not, is just your bias and not reality.
It's not a fact that it's an MMORPG. If it is, what scientific law has declared it as such? Just because ANET wants to call it that doesn't mean it's true.
I do not consider it an MMORPG. If I did, I'd probably have to consider Diablo 3 an MMORPG as well since they both share a great deal of similarities.
Let's see if my two cents can help you out Grimal:
In an rpg, I expect to be the role's creator. I think of the backstory, if I'm good, I get it tied in with the game's lore. I choose the words which come out of my character's mouth. I create a persona. It is a role I created.
In GW2, you are the driver of someone elses character. Sure you get to decide whether you are charming or aggressive or whatever, but you don't get to choose there words. Therefore my aggressive norn warrior constantly says aggressive junk I would never say. It is cheesy and cliche and in fact, not very aggressive. This isn't my character - this isn't the role I wanted to play.......I'm driving some developers toon around and I think I'd be better at it.
The concept of mmorpg was brought to me in 1999. EQ gave me a world and I had to create a character which fit into that world. It was my creative energy which was driving my character, not a story line given to me by a dev. Even the presence of a storyline doesn't preclude and rpg - as long as the tools are in place to be the character you want to be in that story. But in GW2 that is not my dude talking in those cut scenes. I wouldn 't say that.
The central difference for a lot of us is this:
An mmorpg: you write the story.
An mmo: you read the story.
No, it is not the standard definition. GW2, in common vernacular is an mmorpg. But to some of us, mmorpgs did not turn out like they were sold to us at the turn of the century. Back then we were promised the worlds would become more our own, more immersive, more tools for unique-ifying our toon; more tools to write our role the way we see fit.
But more and more, we are being given Generic Warrior #1 who is to battle through a story we have written for him.
That technically may be playing a role, but if you are a creative personality, the role isn't your creation.
Simply stated, GW2 does not give you a world in which to write your own character and story. GW2 gives you a world where you can choose one of their characters to read throuogh their stories.
GW2 may be an mmorpg technically - but it is anything but an mmorpg philosophically.
Get used to my segment of the population. We were there when it all began, and I can tell you honestly, what the genre has become is the exact opposite of where the players and developers thought it would go at the beginning. We stood on the earth and thought the moon was in our future. They took us to the bottom of the ocean instead.
Oh boy Grimal surely made the usual suspects very angry.
*Hands Grimal a shield*
Not my intention at all. I am just giving my opinion. Any are free to disagree with me.
You're opinion is wrong, guild wars 2 might not be to your taste but like it or not it is still an MMORPG.
And I think you're wrong. So where does that leave us?
RPGs have traditioneally always been about character progression and advancement. GW2 has streamlined this feature so much that it is virtually nonexistent.
Let me put it this way: if I remove the cheese from a cheese dish, is it still a cheese dish? I'd argue not. That's the point I am trying to make. GW2 has removed the very cheese from it's dish. Hence, I don't consider it one any more.
So leveling a character is not progression? getting traits and skill points to improve your character is not progression? getting exotic and legendary armour is not progression? doing dungeons and getting rewards is not progression? exploring and unlocking the maps is not progression? getting pvp gear and ranks is not progression? So then tell me what is progression? you just compared guild wars 2 to diablo 3, are you saying diablo 3 is not an rpg either?
Just block grimal. They don't know anything about the game and it's likely they will never have anything of value to say about anything.
Yeah lets block everyone who doen't share same opinions...thanks for the nice idea. How come i never thought about this?
You have been critical of the game and I have not blocked you. There is a difference between being critical and saying an mmorpg is not an mmorpg.
It deserves accolades for being a great game (I firmly believe that).
But being a long-time MMORPG player, this game is not an MMORPG. So to give it any praise as that is simply underserving.
It's like saying "Pulp Fiction" is a brilliant comedy. Brilliant film, yes. Comedy? May have some elements but that hardly makes it one.
It's much more of a mmo than, say, SWTOR. I wonder what exactly defines a mmo in some people's minds, monthly subscription, lol? It's at least as much a mmo as a WoW is, and if you don't consider WoW a mmo, then...
I do consider WoW an MMORPG. GW2 I do not. For me it lacks too many RPG elements to be considered one. Hence, I would call it an MMO but not an MMORPG.
It is an MMORPG, no matter what your opinion is. That is fact.
No, it is not a Sandbox and if yo only call those MMORPG's, then you are missing a huge amount of games.
WoW and GW2 have many traits that are similar, so calling one an MMORPG and the other not, is just your bias and not reality.
It's not a fact that it's an MMORPG. If it is, what scientific law has declared it as such? Just because ANET wants to call it that doesn't mean it's true.
I do not consider it an MMORPG. If I did, I'd probably have to consider Diablo 3 an MMORPG as well since they both share a great deal of similarities.
It is a massively multiplayer role playing game which takes place in a persistent world to boot. So you might not "consider" it a mmo just like you might not "consider" an orange a fruit because.. you don't "feel" it to be a fruit. It's simply ridiculous to say that GW2 is not a mmo because it has all the objective features of a mmo.
Please, what you "feel" about a game is simply no yardstick on which genre it belongs to. You say that it lacks "character development" and "focus". I find that it does not. a) It has oodles of character development and customization, much more than is the norm nowadays (SWTOR, bleh) and b) I have no idea what "focus" means. Please elaborate, I'm really curious to learn what this "focus" thing is which defines mmos as a genre.
Again, criticize the game as much as you want, but please when you state authoritatively that it is "not an mmorpg" all your credibility goes right out of the window.
Grimal is spot on. I had to come out of lurking to say so.
Guild Wars 2 is to RPG what Nickleback is to rock music. And I bought VIP tickets and am now covered in gross Chad sweat, having a blast.
Edit: To elaborate, I feel like I'm picking a character in a fighting or beat-em-up game, rather than a character I created to live out adventures in a world. It's just the way the presentation hits me.
Comments
Not my intention at all. I am just giving my opinion. Any are free to disagree with me.
You're opinion is wrong, guild wars 2 might not be to your taste but like it or not it is still an MMORPG.
But that is the problem here. They won't simply diagree with you but make back handed insults and personal remarks to undermine your opinion. it is bound to happen when you see these two or three names startign to post.
It's not a fact that it's an MMORPG. If it is, what scientific law has declared it as such? Just because ANET wants to call it that doesn't mean it's true.
I do not consider it an MMORPG. If I did, I'd probably have to consider Diablo 3 an MMORPG as well since they both share a great deal of similarities.
I've been playing RPGs, starting with table top ones, for over 30 years now (I was like 12 or 13 when I played my first pen and paper session), and character progression (aka "spreadsheet gaming") has NEVER been the main or even a major part of a RPG. A RPG is a Role Playing Game, not Microsoft Excel made into a game. Some of the PnP RPGs I've played didn't even have character stats.
Computer gamers have been made to believe that raising numbers in an infinite hamster wheel driven carrot chase is the main element of a RPG. That has not always been true, and several MMORPGs like UO and AC1 have never been about that. It's EQ, WoW and clones which brainwashed "us" into thinking that was the only way to play a MMORPG.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
diablo 3 is a gear grinding single/co-op rpg..how does it have similarities with guild wars 2? Do you even read what you type? Yes it is a fact that guild wars 2 is an MMOPRG.
And I think you're wrong. So where does that leave us?
RPGs have traditioneally always been about character progression and advancement. GW2 has streamlined this feature so much that it is virtually nonexistent.
Let me put it this way: if I remove the cheese from a cheese dish, is it still a cheese dish? I'd argue not. That's the point I am trying to make. GW2 has removed the very cheese from it's dish. Hence, I don't consider it one any more.
How are they so different?
Aside from the isometric perspective of the first and the limitation of 4 characters working together, I believe they are more similar than you are apt to admit.
GW2 is an evolution of GW1. GW1 is basically, for all intensive purposes, a more story-driven Diablo-type game (I am only talking the PVE side here). So by simply expanding the population of areas and changing the persepective, does it suddenly become a different genre altogether? No.
And Diablo 3 is an online-only game (as far as I played it last).
So leveling a character is not progression? getting traits and skill points to improve your character is not progression? getting exotic and legendary armour is not progression? doing dungeons and getting rewards is not progression? exploring and unlocking the maps is not progression? getting pvp gear and ranks is not progression? So then tell me what is progression? you just compared guild wars 2 to diablo 3, are you saying diablo 3 is not an rpg either?
Compared to most Western MMOs as I said. GW2 story is so generic and bad that it feels like written by 12 yo for his/her classmates. As a PvEr I don't care much about PvP but still like to do it occasionally but this zergfest GW2 style isn't even PvP, it's just...zergfest. Honestly after the first area I had seen almost everything. Got my skills by level 5 and that was it. Every zone afterwards was copypaste from previous with an exception of killing bandits in one and washing or feeding cows in another. This is my opinon of course but for me personally GW2 is The Mediocricy.
When the ingredients of this "progression" become almost meaningless, then the progression itself becomes meaningless. Hence, there really is none.
Edit: No, I don't consider Diablo 3 an RPG. I'd call it a coop dungeon crawler type game. If someone were to come to me and say, "hey, I'm looking for a good RPG. Can you recommend one?", Diablo 3 would not come to mind.
So what mmo do you currently play then?
at the end of the day anything you do in an mmo is meaningless.
Yes, true. But we are not talking about the grand scheme of things. We are discussing within the confines of the game.
I play TSW for it's atmosphere and story behind the quests and what my character does there. Also have GW2 on my HDD but skipping every single dialogue and story element there not to torture myself with that. Mind, I'm not saying that TSW is something everyone should like and most don't anyway, I'm saying that in my opinion GW2 is a very shallow and mediocre game.
No, you didnt. You may have had your weapon skills, but you did not have your utilities, elites, or traits, and most likely only had 1 of several heal skills available to your class.
Saying you had all your skills at 5 is like playing EQ2 and only getting your normal skills, completely ignoring the AA system and never spending any points and then claiming "I have all the skills in EQ2".
It still amazes me that this concept is so hard to grasp for some people. You have only completed gaining 1 TYPE of skill. Not EVERY skill. This shit isnt rocket science people.
I think the Overhype Train has been chugging along for far too long.
However, the game has been out for almost 2 months now, so we have the benefit of reading un-biased player experiences to counter the fanaticism. There is also much to be said for wading in and seeing if YOU like the game. At the end of the day, I don't give a rat's butt how many reviewer's liked or disliked GW2; for myself, its definitly not living up the overhype and I've gone back to my other MMO.
Yeah lets block everyone who doen't share same opinions...thanks for the nice idea. How come i never thought about this?
I mean it is an open discussion forum after alll.
I'm explaining my argument and my way of thinking. If you do not want to partake in discussions that challenge a belief of yours and find the only solution is to "block" that person, then what are you doing on discussion forums?
How does GW2 not do this? You have a story, and your character progresses through that story. You might not like the story, or choose to not play that story, but that doesn't mean the story doesn't exist. There's a bunch of little stories in the pseudo-open world and an overall world story involving keeping the stereotypical dragon from eating the world or something.
I don't see the huge draw of GW2 and it honestly surprises me. I played in the beta and thought, "Meh, I can live without this". I can still see the progression elements in the game though. You progress through the world, through your character's level, the personal story and the ridiculous grind for legendary weapons. I think it's all there. It's an RPG and it's an MMO.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well i found TSW to be very mediocre with terrible animations, really boring pvp and im not of fan of end game raiding mmo's. so each to their own.
Let's see if my two cents can help you out Grimal:
In an rpg, I expect to be the role's creator. I think of the backstory, if I'm good, I get it tied in with the game's lore. I choose the words which come out of my character's mouth. I create a persona. It is a role I created.
In GW2, you are the driver of someone elses character. Sure you get to decide whether you are charming or aggressive or whatever, but you don't get to choose there words. Therefore my aggressive norn warrior constantly says aggressive junk I would never say. It is cheesy and cliche and in fact, not very aggressive. This isn't my character - this isn't the role I wanted to play.......I'm driving some developers toon around and I think I'd be better at it.
The concept of mmorpg was brought to me in 1999. EQ gave me a world and I had to create a character which fit into that world. It was my creative energy which was driving my character, not a story line given to me by a dev. Even the presence of a storyline doesn't preclude and rpg - as long as the tools are in place to be the character you want to be in that story. But in GW2 that is not my dude talking in those cut scenes. I wouldn 't say that.
The central difference for a lot of us is this:
An mmorpg: you write the story.
An mmo: you read the story.
No, it is not the standard definition. GW2, in common vernacular is an mmorpg. But to some of us, mmorpgs did not turn out like they were sold to us at the turn of the century. Back then we were promised the worlds would become more our own, more immersive, more tools for unique-ifying our toon; more tools to write our role the way we see fit.
But more and more, we are being given Generic Warrior #1 who is to battle through a story we have written for him.
That technically may be playing a role, but if you are a creative personality, the role isn't your creation.
Simply stated, GW2 does not give you a world in which to write your own character and story. GW2 gives you a world where you can choose one of their characters to read throuogh their stories.
GW2 may be an mmorpg technically - but it is anything but an mmorpg philosophically.
Get used to my segment of the population. We were there when it all began, and I can tell you honestly, what the genre has become is the exact opposite of where the players and developers thought it would go at the beginning. We stood on the earth and thought the moon was in our future. They took us to the bottom of the ocean instead.
You have been critical of the game and I have not blocked you. There is a difference between being critical and saying an mmorpg is not an mmorpg.
My theme song.
It is a massively multiplayer role playing game which takes place in a persistent world to boot. So you might not "consider" it a mmo just like you might not "consider" an orange a fruit because.. you don't "feel" it to be a fruit. It's simply ridiculous to say that GW2 is not a mmo because it has all the objective features of a mmo.
Please, what you "feel" about a game is simply no yardstick on which genre it belongs to. You say that it lacks "character development" and "focus". I find that it does not. a) It has oodles of character development and customization, much more than is the norm nowadays (SWTOR, bleh) and b) I have no idea what "focus" means. Please elaborate, I'm really curious to learn what this "focus" thing is which defines mmos as a genre.
Again, criticize the game as much as you want, but please when you state authoritatively that it is "not an mmorpg" all your credibility goes right out of the window.
Grimal is spot on. I had to come out of lurking to say so.
Guild Wars 2 is to RPG what Nickleback is to rock music. And I bought VIP tickets and am now covered in gross Chad sweat, having a blast.
Edit: To elaborate, I feel like I'm picking a character in a fighting or beat-em-up game, rather than a character I created to live out adventures in a world. It's just the way the presentation hits me.
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms