Its the players fault for going out and pre ordering games that they know deep down are the same clones they have been pre ordering for years.
companys woudnt keep makeing all of these crap games if people didnt buy into the hype and dish out their hard earned money for these fail games.
take star wars for example, they had a open beta and any sane person could of tried that open beta and realized the game was just like wow. but yet millions of people buy into the hype and pre order the game only to get upset later that it sucks. whos fault is that?
company B sees company A make millions off a broken half made game just because its the " new best thing ". what do you think company B is going to do ? you guessed it, they are going to do the exact same thing because who cares the sheep will buy it and they will make their money.
Its the players fault for going out and pre ordering games that they know deep down are the same clones they have been pre ordering for years.
companys woudnt keep makeing all of these crap games if people didnt buy into the hype and dish out their hard earned money for these fail games.
take star wars for example, they had a open beta and any sane person could of tried that open beta and realized the game was just like wow. but yet millions of people buy into the hype and pre order the game only to get upset later that it sucks. whos fault is that?
company B sees company A make millions off a broken half made game just because its the " new best thing ". what do you think company B is going to do ? you guessed it, they are going to do the exact same thing because who cares the sheep will buy it and they will make their money.
want to stop with the garbage games?
stop buying them.
Possibly millions of people had fun with the game. I know I did. I tried my brothers account for a week. LIked it, bought the game, played for about 1.5 months and then put it down.
It wasn't a bad game, was well worth the 60 bucks or so I put down. It just didn't have enough to keep me wanting to go longer. I imagine most felt the same way. Was worht the money to them for the month or 3 of play, but didn't have anything more.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
It's terrible. When big money gets involved things change. From jazz to hip-hop to mmos, once big money is made the rest follow suit. Copy after copy until you end up with GW2! eer something you don't recongnize
Its the players fault for going out and pre ordering games that they know deep down are the same clones they have been pre ordering for years.
companys woudnt keep makeing all of these crap games if people didnt buy into the hype and dish out their hard earned money for these fail games.
take star wars for example, they had a open beta and any sane person could of tried that open beta and realized the game was just like wow. but yet millions of people buy into the hype and pre order the game only to get upset later that it sucks. whos fault is that?
company B sees company A make millions off a broken half made game just because its the " new best thing ". what do you think company B is going to do ? you guessed it, they are going to do the exact same thing because who cares the sheep will buy it and they will make their money.
want to stop with the garbage games?
stop buying them.
Possibly millions of people had fun with the game. I know I did. I tried my brothers account for a week. LIked it, bought the game, played for about 1.5 months and then put it down.
It wasn't a bad game, was well worth the 60 bucks or so I put down. It just didn't have enough to keep me wanting to go longer.
isnt that the problem? when i buy a MMO i want to play it for years not a month. i can get that out of a consol RPG game, these are sappose to be MMOs actual worlds to enjoy.
Originally posted by bcbully It's terrible. When big money gets involved things change. From jazz to hip-hop to mmos, once big money is made the rest follow suit. Copy after copy until you end up with GW2! eer something you don't recongnize
Originally posted by bcbully It's terrible. When big money gets involved things change. From jazz to hip-hop to mmos, once big money is made the rest follow suit. Copy after copy until you end up with GW2! eer something you don't recongnize
But big money was in it from the beginning.
I think he is trying to point towards something that doesn't exist. Poking and prodding if someone would retaliate. I don't know what he means either.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Its the players fault for going out and pre ordering games that they know deep down are the same clones they have been pre ordering for years.
companys woudnt keep makeing all of these crap games if people didnt buy into the hype and dish out their hard earned money for these fail games.
take star wars for example, they had a open beta and any sane person could of tried that open beta and realized the game was just like wow. but yet millions of people buy into the hype and pre order the game only to get upset later that it sucks. whos fault is that?
company B sees company A make millions off a broken half made game just because its the " new best thing ". what do you think company B is going to do ? you guessed it, they are going to do the exact same thing because who cares the sheep will buy it and they will make their money.
want to stop with the garbage games?
stop buying them.
Possibly millions of people had fun with the game. I know I did. I tried my brothers account for a week. LIked it, bought the game, played for about 1.5 months and then put it down.
It wasn't a bad game, was well worth the 60 bucks or so I put down. It just didn't have enough to keep me wanting to go longer.
isnt that the problem? when i buy a MMO i want to play it for years not a month. i can get that out of a consol RPG game, these are sappose to be MMOs actual worlds to enjoy.
I just expect to enjoy a game, thats it. Any game I play for a month and only pay 50-70 bucks for is worth the price MMO or not. I played SwTor enough that the price I paid is just fine.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Its the players fault for going out and pre ordering games that they know deep down are the same clones they have been pre ordering for years.
companys woudnt keep makeing all of these crap games if people didnt buy into the hype and dish out their hard earned money for these fail games.
take star wars for example, they had a open beta and any sane person could of tried that open beta and realized the game was just like wow. but yet millions of people buy into the hype and pre order the game only to get upset later that it sucks. whos fault is that?
company B sees company A make millions off a broken half made game just because its the " new best thing ". what do you think company B is going to do ? you guessed it, they are going to do the exact same thing because who cares the sheep will buy it and they will make their money.
want to stop with the garbage games?
stop buying them.
Possibly millions of people had fun with the game. I know I did. I tried my brothers account for a week. LIked it, bought the game, played for about 1.5 months and then put it down.
It wasn't a bad game, was well worth the 60 bucks or so I put down. It just didn't have enough to keep me wanting to go longer.
isnt that the problem? when i buy a MMO i want to play it for years not a month. i can get that out of a consol RPG game, these are sappose to be MMOs actual worlds to enjoy.
I just expect to enjoy a game, thats it. Any game I play for a month and only pay 50-70 bucks for is worth the price MMO or not. I played SwTor enough that the price I paid is just fine.
I agree. Even WAR was good for the money I paid for it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I know i say it a lot but i am not making it up,FFXI has delivered easily more content and innovation thsat ANY mmorpg on the market.
All the other devs are banking on tons of linear questing,instancing,end game,Raids,PVP.The newest trends revolve around Free to play and cash shops.As you can see through everything i just covered,NOTHING revolves around the genre which is SUPPOSE to be ROLE PLAY GAMING.
So ya many have sort of hit it on the nose,it is all about finding ways to deliver a cheaper product but entice a large crowd.
We already have the technology to deliver innovation AND FUN/excitement but NONE of the developers are willing to deliver and put out the effort.
I will name the new tech that woudl allow us the gaming we SHOULD be getting>>>>PhysX/Destructive surfaces/player added content and one idea that is of course too early and a little tough to pull off is the virtual reality software.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The biggest problem is, that actually many more major corporations started its race against Blizzard and only because each one of them wanted its piece of MMORPG cake. And the result is 10 time worse. Actually, you get the thousand clones of game constantly dumbed down, and exact copies of some features proposed by former E-sport community, best left forgotten. Innovations and improvements of genre were minor, next to none. Even if one did something different, its game actually ended up with negative influence/constant bashing/being dead. Why? Because community and developers alike became plagued and everyone were expecting "WoW" standards or "standards that defines an MMORPG" which, obviously changed during the course of years. It came even to the point where, now called SoE, started to dumb-down its own games just to stay in race (not blaming them entirelly but whatever...).
absolutely agree
Now, i dont want that people get me wrong, i played WoW long enough to see where its issues exist and to realise that listening to players' bad feedback for the sake of profit is actually awfull idea.
I did too, unfortunately. Here lately i've been regreting not listening to the people who warned me when ghostcrawler took charge.
In the end, no matter how i like or not some of these games, my hat off to developers of games like EvE, Darkfall, Mortal Online, The Secret World, Guild Wars 1 and 2 and handfull of others. Why? During these unfortunate years, they actually decided to do something different and not to follow... sigh... "MMORPG standards". Only sad thing is that difference is no longer welcomed by majority of "MMORPG gamers". My only hope is that, a long forecasted, second crash of Video Game market is about to happen soon and that we will again see more new and creative stuff from indie developers.
Absolutely agree about your list. TSW is probably not one I'd add to the list because of quality control and animation issues but you're right in that they did do something different with their title then WoW. The new stuff will most definitely have to keep up with the times if they want any success at all. People keep talking about initial sales by the subscription models but the real test is how long they can maintain subs. IP's have alot to do with this and people often forget that. So when a game like SWTOR has such huge sales, trust me it wasn't because EA's name at the time it was due to StarWars, and when people entered that game and saw how bad it was, that should have been the hint. People still feel however that EA wasn't to blame however, one cannot ignore their DLC moves on other titles since so it's not just corporatology at work.
now back to my regularly scheduled GW2 gaming session. LOL
Its the players fault for going out and pre ordering games that they know deep down are the same clones they have been pre ordering for years.
companys woudnt keep makeing all of these crap games if people didnt buy into the hype and dish out their hard earned money for these fail games.
take star wars for example, they had a open beta and any sane person could of tried that open beta and realized the game was just like wow. but yet millions of people buy into the hype and pre order the game only to get upset later that it sucks. whos fault is that?
company B sees company A make millions off a broken half made game just because its the " new best thing ". what do you think company B is going to do ? you guessed it, they are going to do the exact same thing because who cares the sheep will buy it and they will make their money.
want to stop with the garbage games?
stop buying them.
Possibly millions of people had fun with the game. I know I did. I tried my brothers account for a week. LIked it, bought the game, played for about 1.5 months and then put it down.
It wasn't a bad game, was well worth the 60 bucks or so I put down. It just didn't have enough to keep me wanting to go longer.
isnt that the problem? when i buy a MMO i want to play it for years not a month. i can get that out of a consol RPG game, these are sappose to be MMOs actual worlds to enjoy.
I just expect to enjoy a game, thats it. Any game I play for a month and only pay 50-70 bucks for is worth the price MMO or not. I played SwTor enough that the price I paid is just fine.
I agree. Even WAR was good for the money I paid for it.
thats were we differ, im not saying your wrong its just opinions. but when i buy a MMO i want alot more than a month. I use to play Asherons Call and i played it for many years so i allways thought when playing another MMO it would be like that.
maybe its alot to do with themepark MMOs not holding my interest because the game is pretty much done in a month anyways. max level and most content done. i was use to playing for years before you hit max level and allways had stuff to do.
thats were we differ, im not saying your wrong its just opinions. but when i buy a MMO i want alot more than a month. I use to play Asherons Call and i played it for many years so i allways thought when playing another MMO it would be like that.
maybe its alot to do with themepark MMOs not holding my interest because the game is pretty much done in a month anyways. max level and most content done. i was use to playing for years before you hit max level and allways had stuff to do.
You have to ask yourself, were these games planned to be played for years? If no, then they are doing exactly what they're supposed to do.
For me, I see no correlation in the type of a game and the time I've spent playing it. There's been FPSs I've played for years, RTSs, MMORPGs both sandbox and themepark etc.
One thing is for sure, old MMOs took a lot of time to do anything. So perhaps that explains it in part.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
It would be nice to have a game to play for years but I don't expect it. Why?
I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago. I'm learned more, experienced more, done more.
Going form console/spg games to MMO's was a drastic change, being in a world with thousands of others, whether I did anything with them or not was hugely different. There was lots to learn, see and do.
Today though I know how to do it, I know what to expect and know what to do. So now I just look for games that I enjoy and don't expect anything on lengths of time.
It will take something truely epic to get that new wonder feeling again. Something akin to leaving a keyboard and mouse behind. A new way of interacting and experiencing games. Thats not going to happen for awhile.
Although I would settle for a combination of EQ2emote system, combined with a voice over system where you could select what you sound like (e.g, orc, dwarf...) that would at least give someone newness on how I intereact. Could be kinda fun., and could happen soon.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by bcbully It's terrible. When big money gets involved things change. From jazz to hip-hop to mmos, once big money is made the rest follow suit. Copy after copy until you end up with GW2! eer something you don't recongnize
But big money was in it from the beginning.
It's just not the same, even with inflation. EQ cost 2 million to develope. Ultima was said to be developed by one guy. I bet it's development cost was a fraction of EQ's
Now we are talking up to 200m, 300m on just development alone. The advertising budgets are larger the the entire game development and distobution back in the late 90's.
Originally posted by bcbully It's terrible. When big money gets involved things change. From jazz to hip-hop to mmos, once big money is made the rest follow suit. Copy after copy until you end up with GW2! eer something you don't recongnize
But big money was in it from the beginning.
It's just not the same, even with inflation. EQ cost 2 million to develope. Ultima was said to be developed by one guy. I bet it's development cost was a fraction of EQ's
Now we are talking up to 200m, 300m on just development alone. The advertising budgets are larger the the entire game development and distobution back in the late 90's.
Where are you getting these numbers from? At the time, Ultima was one of EA's best known computer IPs. They were looking to make money. I do agree that marketing costs and development costs have increased dramatically. But I disagree with the premise of the entire thread, because big business/corporations, and the two most hated mmo developers/publishers were there from the beginning, and both of their first mmos are two of the games people on this site look back on longingly.
Everyone has higher expectations now. It is becoming increasingly difficult to make a game that players will buy, enjoy, and keep playing for more than 1 month, 3 month, 6 months.
- Art style
- Graphics
- Gameplay
- Story
- Working In-Game Features (i.e. auction, looting, character, skills, etc)
- Leveling Content
- A Large World to Explore
- End Game Content
- Multiple Carrots
- PvE Class Balance
- PvP Class Balance
- Polish
Each of the things I listed needs to be top notch to keep players interested. Before, players would be able to make do with a handful of those, because they didn't really have better. Now, if you don't like something, you can jump to the next title.
And, because games can no longer implement grind to arbitrarily increase the time for players to get to the end game content, they need to stay in development longer, and that requires a large amount of funding.
When innovation happens in desired direction based on your personal bias, it is improvement, great and fun.
When innovation happens in non-desired direction based on your personal bias, it is money greed, dumbing down and franchise exploiting.
Oh well...
So are you denying that the majority of MMOs have not been nearly identical to eachother in gameplay, mechanics, and features with the exception of a handful that actually did something different in the past 5 or so years?
Please, enlighten us all to this vast selection of unique and innovative games.
That's a very different topic than the OP presented. The OP said corporate money was resulting in bad games, despite the extreme popularity of them and how borad the games have gotten.
However, if you really want to go that route, innovation has taken the form of Online TCGs, Browser conquest games (Evony and the like), MOBAs, MMORTS, MMOFPS, Action RPGs, social game worlds (vMTV, Kaneva), minigame enviroments (Free Realms, CWA, PlayStation Home).
I'm quite sure your reply to that second paragraph will reinforce GD's statement.
Those things cover various aspects of gaming as a whole, the OP was regarding MMORPGs specifically. You listed different genres. But what major innovations have we seen in let's say the past 5 years in MMORPGs?
I agree innovation has been made in other areas & types of games. But extremely little in MMORPGs. Aside from a few MMORPGs, nearly every one has revolved around the exact same features and core mechanics. Some of them may add or slightly change 1 or 2 things, but they're usually very minor changes and other games dont continue along that same line of innovation and improving it. Every time we take a step forward in 1 game, other geames release that take us right back to the same place we were.
I understand certain things need to remain the same, or else they wouldnt be RPGs, but there is a lot of room for expanding. Methods of combat / controlling your character being one of the biggest things. It could be made so much more interactive than the current standard of press a # key = your character performs a series of animations and attacks. I would really like to see the genre move more in the direction of you actually dictating your characters individual actions, rather than the actions being dictated by a script linked to a hotkey. But for some reason in the conversion of RPG mechanics from the original P&P games (the statistics, etc) to video game version everyone decided there is only one way that it can be implemented.
Which reinforces his statement. Innovation has expanded the MMORPG into a range of new branches, each very different from one another and all maintaining the progression of RPGs. From your reply, you want innovation but you don't want it to change from the basic formula.
The example you provided is a perfect example for this scenario, as what you describe is a move away from stat-based outcome to player-skill based outcome, which most here would say is not longer an RPG but 'twitch' or 'arcade' gaming. MMOs, btw, do offer other combat styles. Here's a few:
Wizard 101
Atlantica Online
Age of Conan
Tabula Rasa
Chronicles of Spellborn
Puzzle Pirates
Darkwind: War on Wheels
Guild Wars 2
Ultima Online
Dragonica / Dragon Saga
Wakfu
Dofus
Jagged Alliance Online
For each one of those that you are about to dismiss, honestly ask yourself ,"Is it really not innovative, or is it that I am rejecting it simply because the innovation is not in the direction I desire."
GD's point stands.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When innovation happens in desired direction based on your personal bias, it is improvement, great and fun.
When innovation happens in non-desired direction based on your personal bias, it is money greed, dumbing down and franchise exploiting.
Oh well...
So are you denying that the majority of MMOs have not been nearly identical to eachother in gameplay, mechanics, and features with the exception of a handful that actually did something different in the past 5 or so years?
Please, enlighten us all to this vast selection of unique and innovative games.
That's a very different topic than the OP presented. The OP said corporate money was resulting in bad games, despite the extreme popularity of them and how borad the games have gotten.
However, if you really want to go that route, innovation has taken the form of Online TCGs, Browser conquest games (Evony and the like), MOBAs, MMORTS, MMOFPS, Action RPGs, social game worlds (vMTV, Kaneva), minigame enviroments (Free Realms, CWA, PlayStation Home).
I'm quite sure your reply to that second paragraph will reinforce GD's statement.
Those things cover various aspects of gaming as a whole, the OP was regarding MMORPGs specifically. You listed different genres. But what major innovations have we seen in let's say the past 5 years in MMORPGs?
I agree innovation has been made in other areas & types of games. But extremely little in MMORPGs. Aside from a few MMORPGs, nearly every one has revolved around the exact same features and core mechanics. Some of them may add or slightly change 1 or 2 things, but they're usually very minor changes and other games dont continue along that same line of innovation and improving it. Every time we take a step forward in 1 game, other geames release that take us right back to the same place we were.
I understand certain things need to remain the same, or else they wouldnt be RPGs, but there is a lot of room for expanding. Methods of combat / controlling your character being one of the biggest things. It could be made so much more interactive than the current standard of press a # key = your character performs a series of animations and attacks. I would really like to see the genre move more in the direction of you actually dictating your characters individual actions, rather than the actions being dictated by a script linked to a hotkey. But for some reason in the conversion of RPG mechanics from the original P&P games (the statistics, etc) to video game version everyone decided there is only one way that it can be implemented.
Which reinforces his statement. Innovation has expanded the MMORPG into a range of new branches, each very different from one another and all maintaining the progression of RPGs. From your reply, you want innovation but you don't want it to change from the basic formula.
The example you provided is a perfect example for this scenario, as what you describe is a move away from stat-based outcome to player-skill based outcome, which most here would say is not longer an RPG but 'twitch' or 'arcade' gaming. MMOs, btw, do offer other combat styles. Here's a few:
Wizard 101
Atlantica Online
Age of Conan
Tabula Rasa
Chronicles of Spellborn
Puzzle Pirates
Darkwind: War on Wheels
Guild Wars 2
Ultima Online
Dragonica / Dragon Saga
Wakfu
Dofus
Jagged Alliance Online
For each one of those that you are about to dismiss, honestly ask yourself ,"Is it really not innovative, or is it that I am rejecting it simply because the innovation is not in the direction I desire."
GD's point stands.
What I described in no way moves away from stat based combat. It moves away from "press 1 key and watch your character play itself" combat. More fluid and in depth control of your charcter, or at least alternative methods of triggering skills by making better use of our hardware. We have a mouse allowing us to freely move things about the screen, but this motion is never incorporated into actual combat (except for aiming in FPS). not going to go into the details of it here, Ive posted about this in other threads, but point is nearly every game revolves around the same thing: link a skill to a hotkey, press the hotkey, do a bunch of stuff. Its been done over and over and over.
Those other genres are not a result of expanding MMORPGs into those genres. Those genres already existed in single player / local multiplayer versions. Innovation brought those already existing genres to the internet. But they were not an evolution or expansion of MMORPGs, just a different type of already existing game with the internet portion added.
As far as that specific list of games. Yes, Ultima online innovated many years ago. We have yet to see an improved version of Ultima online, at least anything backed by these corporations with a large staff and major funding. Age of Conan ill admit brought a bit of innovation with its combat system. GW2, while slightly improved still relies on mostly the same exact mechanics as the rest. The others in the list were created by smaller less well funded companies.
Even if you consider every 1 of those games innovative it is still a very small sampling in a sea of games that are all practically clones of eachother wrapped in a different skin. I didnt say no MMORPGs at all have innovated. Just that almost none of this innovation has come to us from these massive corporations with millions / billions of dollars to back them up. The innovation generally comes from the smaller less well funded games that have major issues due to lack of staff / experience and the money to improve things.
I'd love to say the cheap startups and small indies do well with gamers, but they really don't.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
That line about the gaming industry virtually not being in existance 10 years ago made me smile too.
But to many of our new gamers thats the way it seems. This is a complex issue, buisness know how is needed to run a gaming company. If you don't have that long term you will fail. But conversly once corporate philosphy takes over, you just get the same old dish served up again and again. It is the marketing concept that made Pepsi great applied to games.
This is why we talk about clones, no innovation and so on. But the games sell well and I like them you say? Well I love Pepsi, but I don't want it to be the only soft drink that is on the market.
Originally posted by Scot That line about the gaming industry virtually not being in existance 10 years ago made me smile too.
Depends on perception.
10 years ago, video game industry was like 1/10 of what it is now. You could also compare the video games to other industries like movie entertainment, etc.
That line about the gaming industry virtually not being in existance 10 years ago made me smile too.
Depends on perception.
10 years ago, video game industry was like 1/10 of what it is now. You could also compare the video games to other industries like movie entertainment, etc.
No, it wasnt, it is just your perception, because the companies gained mainstream fame and the "internetz" really hit the mainstream in 00s, for the industry to be 1/10 of now, we would have to travel back to 1991-3.
Originally posted by Banaghran]No, it wasnt, it is just your perception, because the companies gained mainstream fame and the "internetz" really hit the mainstream in 00s, for the industry to be 1/10 of now, we would have to travel back to 1991-3.Flame on!:)
Video game industry in 2003 was about 9B USD. The game costs about 2-5M to develop.
Today, the industry is closing on 70B USD and game costs +50M to make.
For me I simply only have to look at the evidence:
Turbine now owned by Warner Brothers ... and now a visionary shell of what it once was.
Blizzard owned by Activision ... and now also a visionary shell of what it once was.
Bioware and Mythic now owned by EA ... sad and shattered versions of themselves.
Mmo's under SOE ... ruined, lack of support or direction of vision altered drastically, but perhaps a reawakening of the big company of late? Hopefully they can prove they can turn things around.
Crap mmo copies being released by big companies ... due to their business model of copy and paste games in order to limit creativity and costs for quick money returns with no model for genre sustenance. This is the biggest reason for mmo failures.
Imo indie-gaming must find it's way through all the industry BS and make some waves to influence where games head. Big companies losing it's fanbase is a good good thing. It wakes them up to the fact the players are the ones paying their bills. They treat investors as their main source of income when it is nothing more than loaned money and players as some sort of guaranteed milk fund they can manipulate to cover their losses. They treat mmos like consumable products, "Mmo 2011 was put out now make Mmo 2012 with a slightly different roster and re-sell it to the idiots all over again!".
Mmorpg's are something you nurture and grow a community that sticks around. Investing in the players is what saves mmos. Big corps have long since lost interest in investing in it's players. They want to sell you an shiny apply then ensure it rots so the next shiny apple gets your money. Most forgot or never figured out that you keep your mmo apply shiny and watch it feel thousands of players for years. It is the ONLY sustainable model for an mmorgp.
]No, it wasnt, it is just your perception, because the companies gained mainstream fame and the "internetz" really hit the mainstream in 00s, for the industry to be 1/10 of now, we would have to travel back to 1991-3.
Flame on!
Video game industry in 2003 was about 9B USD. The game costs about 2-5M to develop.
Today, the industry is closing on 70B USD and game costs +50M to make.
Go figure...
Went, and found something different. And dont even go to "xyz costs that much to make", compare that to the movies...
Comments
in the end i blame the players.
Its the players fault for going out and pre ordering games that they know deep down are the same clones they have been pre ordering for years.
companys woudnt keep makeing all of these crap games if people didnt buy into the hype and dish out their hard earned money for these fail games.
take star wars for example, they had a open beta and any sane person could of tried that open beta and realized the game was just like wow. but yet millions of people buy into the hype and pre order the game only to get upset later that it sucks. whos fault is that?
company B sees company A make millions off a broken half made game just because its the " new best thing ". what do you think company B is going to do ? you guessed it, they are going to do the exact same thing because who cares the sheep will buy it and they will make their money.
want to stop with the garbage games?
stop buying them.
Possibly millions of people had fun with the game. I know I did. I tried my brothers account for a week. LIked it, bought the game, played for about 1.5 months and then put it down.
It wasn't a bad game, was well worth the 60 bucks or so I put down. It just didn't have enough to keep me wanting to go longer. I imagine most felt the same way. Was worht the money to them for the month or 3 of play, but didn't have anything more.
isnt that the problem? when i buy a MMO i want to play it for years not a month. i can get that out of a consol RPG game, these are sappose to be MMOs actual worlds to enjoy.
But big money was in it from the beginning.
I think he is trying to point towards something that doesn't exist. Poking and prodding if someone would retaliate. I don't know what he means either.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I just expect to enjoy a game, thats it. Any game I play for a month and only pay 50-70 bucks for is worth the price MMO or not. I played SwTor enough that the price I paid is just fine.
I agree. Even WAR was good for the money I paid for it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I know i say it a lot but i am not making it up,FFXI has delivered easily more content and innovation thsat ANY mmorpg on the market.
All the other devs are banking on tons of linear questing,instancing,end game,Raids,PVP.The newest trends revolve around Free to play and cash shops.As you can see through everything i just covered,NOTHING revolves around the genre which is SUPPOSE to be ROLE PLAY GAMING.
So ya many have sort of hit it on the nose,it is all about finding ways to deliver a cheaper product but entice a large crowd.
We already have the technology to deliver innovation AND FUN/excitement but NONE of the developers are willing to deliver and put out the effort.
I will name the new tech that woudl allow us the gaming we SHOULD be getting>>>>PhysX/Destructive surfaces/player added content and one idea that is of course too early and a little tough to pull off is the virtual reality software.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
now back to my regularly scheduled GW2 gaming session. LOL
thats were we differ, im not saying your wrong its just opinions. but when i buy a MMO i want alot more than a month. I use to play Asherons Call and i played it for many years so i allways thought when playing another MMO it would be like that.
maybe its alot to do with themepark MMOs not holding my interest because the game is pretty much done in a month anyways. max level and most content done. i was use to playing for years before you hit max level and allways had stuff to do.
You have to ask yourself, were these games planned to be played for years? If no, then they are doing exactly what they're supposed to do.
For me, I see no correlation in the type of a game and the time I've spent playing it. There's been FPSs I've played for years, RTSs, MMORPGs both sandbox and themepark etc.
One thing is for sure, old MMOs took a lot of time to do anything. So perhaps that explains it in part.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
It would be nice to have a game to play for years but I don't expect it. Why?
I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago. I'm learned more, experienced more, done more.
Going form console/spg games to MMO's was a drastic change, being in a world with thousands of others, whether I did anything with them or not was hugely different. There was lots to learn, see and do.
Today though I know how to do it, I know what to expect and know what to do. So now I just look for games that I enjoy and don't expect anything on lengths of time.
It will take something truely epic to get that new wonder feeling again. Something akin to leaving a keyboard and mouse behind. A new way of interacting and experiencing games. Thats not going to happen for awhile.
Although I would settle for a combination of EQ2emote system, combined with a voice over system where you could select what you sound like (e.g, orc, dwarf...) that would at least give someone newness on how I intereact. Could be kinda fun., and could happen soon.
It's just not the same, even with inflation. EQ cost 2 million to develope. Ultima was said to be developed by one guy. I bet it's development cost was a fraction of EQ's
Now we are talking up to 200m, 300m on just development alone. The advertising budgets are larger the the entire game development and distobution back in the late 90's.
Where are you getting these numbers from? At the time, Ultima was one of EA's best known computer IPs. They were looking to make money. I do agree that marketing costs and development costs have increased dramatically. But I disagree with the premise of the entire thread, because big business/corporations, and the two most hated mmo developers/publishers were there from the beginning, and both of their first mmos are two of the games people on this site look back on longingly.
Everyone has higher expectations now. It is becoming increasingly difficult to make a game that players will buy, enjoy, and keep playing for more than 1 month, 3 month, 6 months.
- Art style
- Graphics
- Gameplay
- Story
- Working In-Game Features (i.e. auction, looting, character, skills, etc)
- Leveling Content
- A Large World to Explore
- End Game Content
- Multiple Carrots
- PvE Class Balance
- PvP Class Balance
- Polish
Each of the things I listed needs to be top notch to keep players interested. Before, players would be able to make do with a handful of those, because they didn't really have better. Now, if you don't like something, you can jump to the next title.
And, because games can no longer implement grind to arbitrarily increase the time for players to get to the end game content, they need to stay in development longer, and that requires a large amount of funding.
Which reinforces his statement. Innovation has expanded the MMORPG into a range of new branches, each very different from one another and all maintaining the progression of RPGs. From your reply, you want innovation but you don't want it to change from the basic formula.
The example you provided is a perfect example for this scenario, as what you describe is a move away from stat-based outcome to player-skill based outcome, which most here would say is not longer an RPG but 'twitch' or 'arcade' gaming. MMOs, btw, do offer other combat styles. Here's a few:
For each one of those that you are about to dismiss, honestly ask yourself ,"Is it really not innovative, or is it that I am rejecting it simply because the innovation is not in the direction I desire."
GD's point stands.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What I described in no way moves away from stat based combat. It moves away from "press 1 key and watch your character play itself" combat. More fluid and in depth control of your charcter, or at least alternative methods of triggering skills by making better use of our hardware. We have a mouse allowing us to freely move things about the screen, but this motion is never incorporated into actual combat (except for aiming in FPS). not going to go into the details of it here, Ive posted about this in other threads, but point is nearly every game revolves around the same thing: link a skill to a hotkey, press the hotkey, do a bunch of stuff. Its been done over and over and over.
Those other genres are not a result of expanding MMORPGs into those genres. Those genres already existed in single player / local multiplayer versions. Innovation brought those already existing genres to the internet. But they were not an evolution or expansion of MMORPGs, just a different type of already existing game with the internet portion added.
As far as that specific list of games. Yes, Ultima online innovated many years ago. We have yet to see an improved version of Ultima online, at least anything backed by these corporations with a large staff and major funding. Age of Conan ill admit brought a bit of innovation with its combat system. GW2, while slightly improved still relies on mostly the same exact mechanics as the rest. The others in the list were created by smaller less well funded companies.
Even if you consider every 1 of those games innovative it is still a very small sampling in a sea of games that are all practically clones of eachother wrapped in a different skin. I didnt say no MMORPGs at all have innovated. Just that almost none of this innovation has come to us from these massive corporations with millions / billions of dollars to back them up. The innovation generally comes from the smaller less well funded games that have major issues due to lack of staff / experience and the money to improve things.
I'd love to say the cheap startups and small indies do well with gamers, but they really don't.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
That line about the gaming industry virtually not being in existance 10 years ago made me smile too.
But to many of our new gamers thats the way it seems. This is a complex issue, buisness know how is needed to run a gaming company. If you don't have that long term you will fail. But conversly once corporate philosphy takes over, you just get the same old dish served up again and again. It is the marketing concept that made Pepsi great applied to games.
This is why we talk about clones, no innovation and so on. But the games sell well and I like them you say? Well I love Pepsi, but I don't want it to be the only soft drink that is on the market.
Depends on perception.
10 years ago, video game industry was like 1/10 of what it is now. You could also compare the video games to other industries like movie entertainment, etc.
No, it wasnt, it is just your perception, because the companies gained mainstream fame and the "internetz" really hit the mainstream in 00s, for the industry to be 1/10 of now, we would have to travel back to 1991-3.
Flame on!
Video game industry in 2003 was about 9B USD. The game costs about 2-5M to develop.
Today, the industry is closing on 70B USD and game costs +50M to make.
Go figure...
For me I simply only have to look at the evidence:
Turbine now owned by Warner Brothers ... and now a visionary shell of what it once was.
Blizzard owned by Activision ... and now also a visionary shell of what it once was.
Bioware and Mythic now owned by EA ... sad and shattered versions of themselves.
Mmo's under SOE ... ruined, lack of support or direction of vision altered drastically, but perhaps a reawakening of the big company of late? Hopefully they can prove they can turn things around.
Crap mmo copies being released by big companies ... due to their business model of copy and paste games in order to limit creativity and costs for quick money returns with no model for genre sustenance. This is the biggest reason for mmo failures.
Imo indie-gaming must find it's way through all the industry BS and make some waves to influence where games head. Big companies losing it's fanbase is a good good thing. It wakes them up to the fact the players are the ones paying their bills. They treat investors as their main source of income when it is nothing more than loaned money and players as some sort of guaranteed milk fund they can manipulate to cover their losses. They treat mmos like consumable products, "Mmo 2011 was put out now make Mmo 2012 with a slightly different roster and re-sell it to the idiots all over again!".
Mmorpg's are something you nurture and grow a community that sticks around. Investing in the players is what saves mmos. Big corps have long since lost interest in investing in it's players. They want to sell you an shiny apply then ensure it rots so the next shiny apple gets your money. Most forgot or never figured out that you keep your mmo apply shiny and watch it feel thousands of players for years. It is the ONLY sustainable model for an mmorgp.
You stay sassy!
Went, and found something different. And dont even go to "xyz costs that much to make", compare that to the movies...
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_industry
Flame on!