The game is WoW without the difficulty and sense of achievement. That's why. Like i've said 10000 times before. Its a theme park released in an age where there are already better theme parks...
GW2 is like the Knotts Berry Farms of MMOs. It sucks and Id rather just go to Disneyland.
You forgot the part where GW2 plays nothing like WoW or other WoW-clones. Seriously, have you even played the game?
Or maye he's thinking that components such as Dodge really aren't all that innovative.
GW2:
Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "Dodge" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "GW2 combat is so AWESOME!"
WoW:
Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "interrupt" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "WoW combat really sux!"
but now that you said that....just so that I can argue my points and just so you cannot make this excuse...I will play through the game...might take a while cuz I dont like it...but I will take a toon from 1-80...I will also run dungeons...every one of them, just so that I can give you the same answer in the end. I've got nothing to do (after work), so I might as well...this way, I can remove half of GW2 fanatics excuses for when I want to argue a point.
Matter of fact, you can tell me what class and what race you want me to be...Ill take screenshots and everything...Ill name my toon Randayn too so you know Im not lying.
but now that you said that....just so that I can argue my points and just so you cannot make this excuse...I will play through the game...might take a while cuz I dont like it...but I will take a toon from 1-80...I will also run dungeons...every one of them, just so that I can give you the same answer in the end. I've got nothing to do (after work), so I might as well...this way, I can remove half of GW2 fanatics excuses for when I want to argue a point.
Matter of fact, you can tell me what class and what race you want me to be...Ill take screenshots and everything...Ill name my toon Randayn too so you know Im not lying.
lol now that's what i call someone with a grudge.. so sad some people are this inclined to put down a great game.
Also never ceases to amaze me people say they put over 100 hours into a game they feel is shallow and mediocre.. honestly it's $60 bucks If I don't enjoy a game within the first 10 hours I'm out. I don't see the need to "suffer" my way through just to feel i got my moneys worth
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
All of those roles are sub-roles within the larger roles. Theres a reason its called trinity. 3 things: Tank, healer, dps. They may perform each of those roles in slightly different ways, but it is still that same role.
If WoW were to suddenly put in a patch that removed the ability to tant / gain aggro from tanks, they would need to completely redesign every encounter to account for a wider variety of groups because the system no longer relies on that system of "We know who is going to get hit every time and roughly how damage they can take".
In a five man dungeon, sure, but have you ever off-tanked in a raid setting? I don't think you have if you think it's the same as tanking a boss mob....it's MUCH different. I was an off-tank for about 2 years in WoW Vanilla and then again when we hit up Ulduar. Off-tanking is a bit more time sensitive and requires you to see the entire field, whereas main tank has to stay alive.
Group healing is much different from Main Tank Healing...HoT healing is a requirement for a fight in one of the raids I once did.
The point is, is that if you make a game without classes, you cannot strategically build a dungeon that tests each seperate class/sub-class...you can only challenge survivability, which, like I said before, is more of a group vs. themselves build, rather than group vs. raid boss.
why talk about offtanking in raids? thought we were discussing dungeon bosses?
dungeons in most mmos are for 5 to 6 players
you havent demonstrated how the trinity in a 5man dungeon is more strategic than nontrinity
lol now that's what i call someone with a grudge.. so sad some people are this inclined to put down a great game.
... or even a bad game to be honest. I can't tell what I think of that behavior without breaking a forum rule, but some people really take games (and a few other things too) way too seriously.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
but now that you said that....just so that I can argue my points and just so you cannot make this excuse...I will play through the game...might take a while cuz I dont like it...but I will take a toon from 1-80...I will also run dungeons...every one of them, just so that I can give you the same answer in the end. I've got nothing to do (after work), so I might as well...this way, I can remove half of GW2 fanatics excuses for when I want to argue a point.
Matter of fact, you can tell me what class and what race you want me to be...Ill take screenshots and everything...Ill name my toon Randayn too so you know Im not lying.
lol now that's what i call someone with a grudge.. so sad some people are this inclined to put down a great game.
It's not about that. It's not personal either, although you've probably seen me get hot-headed...it will never be personal...that would be stupid of me.
It's about the direction of the MMO industry and the fact that I disagree with it. I believe that the direction is headed toward 3 different things that will ultimately (and already have) dumbed down and watered down the experience:
1. Single Player experience from start to finish - dont mind solo'ing...I love it, but Im still a big believer that every game should have parts in the leveling conquest that force you to team up...in the open world and in dungeons
2. Catering to the masses rather than retaining the integrity of the genre
3. making combat preperation, skills and combat itself feel more like an FPS than an MMORPG. That's what PVP is for...not PVE...I dont want to twitch all over the place. I want to prepare for battle so I dont have to twitch when I get there.
But I am serious about making through the entire game....choose the class and race...I'll do it.
lol now that's what i call someone with a grudge.. so sad some people are this inclined to put down a great game.
... or even a bad game to be honest. I can't tell what I think of that behavior without breaking a forum rule, but some people really take games (and a few other things too) way too seriously.
very true.. good or bad it's all obviously subjective to the individual.. so what's the use of continuously bashing any game to flex your "i know better than everyone else" muscle to everyone.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
But I am serious about making through the entire game....choose the class and race...I'll do it.
if you are that inlcined play an elementalist.. race is up to you whatever you like
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
All of those roles are sub-roles within the larger roles. Theres a reason its called trinity. 3 things: Tank, healer, dps. They may perform each of those roles in slightly different ways, but it is still that same role.
If WoW were to suddenly put in a patch that removed the ability to tant / gain aggro from tanks, they would need to completely redesign every encounter to account for a wider variety of groups because the system no longer relies on that system of "We know who is going to get hit every time and roughly how damage they can take".
In a five man dungeon, sure, but have you ever off-tanked in a raid setting? I don't think you have if you think it's the same as tanking a boss mob....it's MUCH different. I was an off-tank for about 2 years in WoW Vanilla and then again when we hit up Ulduar. Off-tanking is a bit more time sensitive and requires you to see the entire field, whereas main tank has to stay alive.
Group healing is much different from Main Tank Healing...HoT healing is a requirement for a fight in one of the raids I once did.
The point is, is that if you make a game without classes, you cannot strategically build a dungeon that tests each seperate class/sub-class...you can only challenge survivability, which, like I said before, is more of a group vs. themselves build, rather than group vs. raid boss.
why talk about offtanking in raids? thought we were discussing dungeon bosses?
dungeons in most mmos are for 5 to 6 players
you havent demonstrated how the trinity in a 5man dungeon is more strategic than nontrinity
What I've demonstrated, time and time again, is that developers cannot develop a rich and deep strategy in a dungeon setting if there is no trinity to base it on. So, in a way, inadvertantly, yes, it does take more strategy and preperation with a trinity, but only if the devs are worth their salt.
That's been my argument from the start.
My other argument that is seperate from this, is twitch vs. preperation. That has nothing to do with my dungeon/raid/trinity argument. Please don't mix the two together.
It's not about that. It's not personal either, although you've probably seen me get hot-headed...it will never be personal...that would be stupid of me.
It's about the direction of the MMO industry and the fact that I disagree with it. I believe that the direction is headed toward 3 different things that will ultimately (and already have) dumbed down and watered down the experience:
1. Single Player experience from start to finish - dont mind solo'ing...I love it, but Im still a big believer that every game should have parts in the leveling conquest that force you to team up...in the open world and in dungeons
2. Catering to the masses rather than retaining the integrity of the genre
3. making combat preperation, skills and combat itself feel more like an FPS than an MMORPG. That's what PVP is for...not PVE...I dont want to twitch all over the place. I want to prepare for battle so I dont have to twitch when I get there.
But I am serious about making through the entire game....choose the class and race...I'll do it.
just odd because most games that came out in the last decade follow this(aside from maybe #3) yet you single out GW2
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
lol now that's what i call someone with a grudge.. so sad some people are this inclined to put down a great game.
... or even a bad game to be honest. I can't tell what I think of that behavior without breaking a forum rule, but some people really take games (and a few other things too) way too seriously.
It may seem silly to some, but I have very few things Im passionate about and I will always be vocal. Politics, philosophy and MMORPGs.
but now that you said that....just so that I can argue my points and just so you cannot make this excuse...I will play through the game...might take a while cuz I dont like it...but I will take a toon from 1-80...I will also run dungeons...every one of them, just so that I can give you the same answer in the end. I've got nothing to do (after work), so I might as well...this way, I can remove half of GW2 fanatics excuses for when I want to argue a point.
Matter of fact, you can tell me what class and what race you want me to be...Ill take screenshots and everything...Ill name my toon Randayn too so you know Im not lying.
lol now that's what i call someone with a grudge.. so sad some people are this inclined to put down a great game.
It's not about that. It's not personal either, although you've probably seen me get hot-headed...it will never be personal...that would be stupid of me.
It's about the direction of the MMO industry and the fact that I disagree with it. I believe that the direction is headed toward 3 different things that will ultimately (and already have) dumbed down and watered down the experience:
1. Single Player experience from start to finish - dont mind solo'ing...I love it, but Im still a big believer that every game should have parts in the leveling conquest that force you to team up...in the open world and in dungeons
2. Catering to the masses rather than retaining the integrity of the genre
3. making combat preperation, skills and combat itself feel more like an FPS than an MMORPG. That's what PVP is for...not PVE...I dont want to twitch all over the place. I want to prepare for battle so I dont have to twitch when I get there.
But I am serious about making through the entire game....choose the class and race...I'll do it.
If this is your motive I don't see how you get what you desire. Your influence on a discussion forum is already big time discounted by game makers who, from there data, know that this is a very tiny minority of players. You'd be much better off putting your time, energy and passion into building the game you want in the direction you want it to go. I know it's easier just to play games you don't like and bash them on forums. Thats alot of, imho, mis-directed energy.
Personally, I like where guild wars 2 is headed. I know my 2 cents isn't worth much either.
It's not about that. It's not personal either, although you've probably seen me get hot-headed...it will never be personal...that would be stupid of me.
It's about the direction of the MMO industry and the fact that I disagree with it. I believe that the direction is headed toward 3 different things that will ultimately (and already have) dumbed down and watered down the experience:
1. Single Player experience from start to finish - dont mind solo'ing...I love it, but Im still a big believer that every game should have parts in the leveling conquest that force you to team up...in the open world and in dungeons
2. Catering to the masses rather than retaining the integrity of the genre
3. making combat preperation, skills and combat itself feel more like an FPS than an MMORPG. That's what PVP is for...not PVE...I dont want to twitch all over the place. I want to prepare for battle so I dont have to twitch when I get there.
But I am serious about making through the entire game....choose the class and race...I'll do it.
just odd because most games that came out in the last decade follow this(aside from maybe #3) yet you single out GW2
I totally agree with you there. Im not singling out anything. Im pointing out the giant...why worry about the dwarf?
but now that you said that....just so that I can argue my points and just so you cannot make this excuse...I will play through the game...might take a while cuz I dont like it...but I will take a toon from 1-80...I will also run dungeons...every one of them, just so that I can give you the same answer in the end. I've got nothing to do (after work), so I might as well...this way, I can remove half of GW2 fanatics excuses for when I want to argue a point.
Matter of fact, you can tell me what class and what race you want me to be...Ill take screenshots and everything...Ill name my toon Randayn too so you know Im not lying.
lol now that's what i call someone with a grudge.. so sad some people are this inclined to put down a great game.
It's not about that. It's not personal either, although you've probably seen me get hot-headed...it will never be personal...that would be stupid of me.
It's about the direction of the MMO industry and the fact that I disagree with it. I believe that the direction is headed toward 3 different things that will ultimately (and already have) dumbed down and watered down the experience:
1. Single Player experience from start to finish - dont mind solo'ing...I love it, but Im still a big believer that every game should have parts in the leveling conquest that force you to team up...in the open world and in dungeons
2. Catering to the masses rather than retaining the integrity of the genre
3. making combat preperation, skills and combat itself feel more like an FPS than an MMORPG. That's what PVP is for...not PVE...I dont want to twitch all over the place. I want to prepare for battle so I dont have to twitch when I get there.
But I am serious about making through the entire game....choose the class and race...I'll do it.
If this is your motive I don't see how you get what you desire. Your influence on a discussion forum is already big time discounted by game makers who, from there data, know that this is a very tiny minority of players. You'd be much better off putting your time, energy and passion into building the game you want in the direction you want it to go. I know it's easier just to play games you don't like and bash them on forums. Thats alot of, imho, mis-directed energy.
Personally, I like where guild wars 2 is headed. I know my 2 cents isn't worth much either.
I wish I had the knowledge and money to make a game...I have neither...but as a consumer, I can complain all I want...we are the ultimate judge of success and failure (unless the government intervenes)
It's not about that. It's not personal either, although you've probably seen me get hot-headed...it will never be personal...that would be stupid of me.
It's about the direction of the MMO industry and the fact that I disagree with it. I believe that the direction is headed toward 3 different things that will ultimately (and already have) dumbed down and watered down the experience:
1. Single Player experience from start to finish - dont mind solo'ing...I love it, but Im still a big believer that every game should have parts in the leveling conquest that force you to team up...in the open world and in dungeons
2. Catering to the masses rather than retaining the integrity of the genre
3. making combat preperation, skills and combat itself feel more like an FPS than an MMORPG. That's what PVP is for...not PVE...I dont want to twitch all over the place. I want to prepare for battle so I dont have to twitch when I get there.
But I am serious about making through the entire game....choose the class and race...I'll do it.
just odd because most games that came out in the last decade follow this(aside from maybe #3) yet you single out GW2
I totally agree with you there. Im not singling out anything. Im pointing out the giant...why worry about the dwarf?
thought wow was the giant? according to these forums GW2 is just the next one to fade into the darkness so why worry?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
It's not about that. It's not personal either, although you've probably seen me get hot-headed...it will never be personal...that would be stupid of me.
It's about the direction of the MMO industry and the fact that I disagree with it. I believe that the direction is headed toward 3 different things that will ultimately (and already have) dumbed down and watered down the experience:
1. Single Player experience from start to finish - dont mind solo'ing...I love it, but Im still a big believer that every game should have parts in the leveling conquest that force you to team up...in the open world and in dungeons
2. Catering to the masses rather than retaining the integrity of the genre
3. making combat preperation, skills and combat itself feel more like an FPS than an MMORPG. That's what PVP is for...not PVE...I dont want to twitch all over the place. I want to prepare for battle so I dont have to twitch when I get there.
But I am serious about making through the entire game....choose the class and race...I'll do it.
just odd because most games that came out in the last decade follow this(aside from maybe #3) yet you single out GW2
I totally agree with you there. Im not singling out anything. Im pointing out the giant...why worry about the dwarf?
thought wow was the giant? according to these forums GW2 is just the next one to fade into the darkness so why worry?
I don't think that at all. Im angry that it's so popular (and I wont ever say it's not), because I believe it sets a bad precedent for the direction of future MMORPG's. that's my gripe. I do think it's a very generic game, from what I've played though. But that is bound to happen when you try to cater to the masses...you must dumb and water down.
you havent demonstrated how the trinity in a 5man dungeon is more strategic than nontrinity
What I've demonstrated, time and time again, is that developers cannot develop a rich and deep strategy in a dungeon setting if there is no trinity to base it on. So, in a way, inadvertantly, yes, it does take more strategy and preperation with a trinity, but only if the devs are worth their salt.
That's been my argument from the start.
My other argument that is seperate from this, is twitch vs. preperation. That has nothing to do with my dungeon/raid/trinity argument. Please don't mix the two together.
instead of saying time and time again -- give me a 5man dungeon example
the critical difference between trinity and no trinity is Taunt or lack of it
I disagree that mmos that use taunt make a game more complex and strategic
instanced raids, as far as im concerned, are 20 man dungeons and GW2 does not have those
The game is WoW without the difficulty and sense of achievement. That's why. Like i've said 10000 times before. Its a theme park released in an age where there are already better theme parks...
GW2 is like the Knotts Berry Farms of MMOs. It sucks and Id rather just go to Disneyland.
You forgot the part where GW2 plays nothing like WoW or other WoW-clones. Seriously, have you even played the game?
Or maye he's thinking that components such as Dodge really aren't all that innovative.
GW2:
Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "Dodge" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "GW2 combat is so AWESOME!"
WoW:
Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "interrupt" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "WoW combat really sux!"
"Cast bar"?
In GW2?
Do you guys play the game or just make up stuff?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
I've explained it. The implementation chosen requires each player be fully aware of every other player in the group. That's for the dungeons. As group sizes would increase, so would the demand for awareness placed on each player in the team. The burden would exceed the abilities of the average gamer. It's just info overload. That's why we have roles in traditional groups. I don't have a way for the non trinity system to work. I have a hard time seeing it, but I'll accept it's possible. But of what i've seen in it's current implementation, I think we are at about the limit of what a coordinated group can be before that coordination breaks down. And the evidence is present. Look at the big raid fights. They are lacklustre at best.
think about this for a second.. look at the 5 man dungeons in this game currently and how many issues people so stuck on trinity games are having.. now imagine if they made the open world bosses complex encounters people would be having a field day as they could not complete the content.. open world stuff should be more accessable this way imho.. But now saying that look what happens once a good group knows the dungeons in this game... they are blazing through them in 30 min which would take others hours to get through... now look at the scenario i typed above why would something like that not work with a well coordinated raid in this type of game?
also i'd try the dragon fights now when the areas are not completely oversaturated with people like they were couple weeks ago they are a LOT more fun
Your key words are "good group" That's where it falls apart. Hell it's hard enough in the trinity. Much less a game with increased siuational awareness requirements. I think it's more the human factor when I am talking about the least common denominator. Most just won't get it
I'm having trouble with you thoughts on this. But shouldn't a "good group" be the ones that succeed in ANY dungeon, even raid dungeons for trinity games? I'm not talking about a "great group" or an "amazing group" or a "flawless group" here. But I'm talking about a group with basic knowledge of the encounters who are all responsive and aware of the fights to a degree that a "good" player will have. Not an average or weak player. Because those players should not be able to get through the tough stuff in any MMO game, or any game actually. I believe that if a player wants to succeed in an MMO, or any game for that matter, they should at least take some time to study how the game works, such as encounters in a dungeon, and I'm not talking like ridiculous amounts, but gathering a basic understanding of the game should be key to succeeding in it. I would be highly highly dissapointed in any game that I can just jump in and without much effort at all, breeze my way through it...*cough* Diablo 3 *cough*.
So your saying that because MOST players would not have the proper situational awareness requirements that a dungeon with more than 5 player cap (a raid dungeon) in GW2 would fail? That tells me a couple things. First off, your pretty much insulting gamers intelligence on a pretty large scale (although there are some cases where I wouldn't dissagree with you on this point, lol) and secondly, that you believe that difficult games should not be made because the majority of players wouldn't be able to complete them because they lack the "good player" quality to do it. And that's just a silly notion in it's own right.
GW2's lack of the trinity system is a breakthrough in MMO gaming, and this being the first game of it's kind, I can understand some skepticism in believeing that it can achieve the things that the holy trinity has achieved. But to believe that it CANNOT achieve those things straight up, is downright naive and incredibly close minded.
In response to your 1st paragraph, I am not talking about individual players, I am talking about the law of averages. When you PUG dungeons, you are going to get bad players. That's just the way it is. Now, at the same time, and historically in games such as WoW, time does prove to overcome this as even the worst players eventually either learn what to do, or just outgear the dungeons. But in GW2, that 2nd option is not possible.
No, I'm not saying most players. I'm saying the "One you got stuck with in your group that doesn't" situation that always seems to happen in PUGs.
I would say the GW2 system is a break away, not a break through. You can call me closed minded, but to me I've seen the effect. It's very limited. If I were to say that a non-trinity system will never work, then sure, that's closed minded, but I'm not saying that. What I am saying is GW2's system is limited, it's an observation. I have said before, Look at the lack luster boss fights. Look at one of the biggest complaints about the dungeon system in the past 6 weeks of threads here, many have said the same thing. The fact that you disagree doesn't make me any more or less ignorant of any "facts". The non-trinity system of GW2, did not go over as well with the "masses" as was previously hoped.
How is this a bad thing?? Overtime the community learns to overcome difficult obstacles using their skill instead of using whatever great gear they can scrounge together. All positive there. Also, due to the fact that the dungeons are actually difficult in this game, it gives people incentives to be social and gather friends to do a dungeon instead of a PUG. Also, a positive thing.
Your only argument that your providing that the system is limited is that it's a non-trinity game, and that people on the forums complain about the dungeons. The only reason people complain about the dungeon's is because they get their asses kicked and instead of learning why they are constantly dying and losing, they decide it must be the game's fault. "It's a new system, it's the system that's flawed, not me, I'm the best player in the world!" I know this because people who have actually learned the dungeons have a great time playing them, and die far less frequently. And people who die frequently in my groups always play the same record "omg, this game's system is so broken!" even though I'm watching how terrible they are playing.
Judging from your argument's so far, your taking all your facts just from what you hear on these forums instead of asking what people think who are playing the game. Oh, you can't ask them, because they are all enjoying it right now. The massive amounts of great reviews are also an indication of just how much the "masses" "dislike" this game.
when I played the game, which I did for over 100 hours....I felt like I was playing WoW part 2 with watered down talent tree and being forced to switch out to my gun rather than just have it hotkeyed to pull a mob. The story was just as generic and the characters were just as fantasy....the quests were not as good as WoW's quests....yes, DE's and Hearts are frickin quests. please stop thinking they are something else.
WoW was your first MMO wasn't it? Everything you claim makes a game "play like WoW" has been around since Everquest.
What you mean to say is GW2 plays like an MMORPG, which is obvious since it IS an MMORPG.
Originally posted by Randayn
I don't think that at all. Im angry that it's so popular (and I wont ever say it's not), because I believe it sets a bad precedent for the direction of future MMORPG's. that's my gripe. I do think it's a very generic game, from what I've played though. But that is bound to happen when you try to cater to the masses...you must dumb and water down.
Sorry but GW2 is anything but generic. What other MMO have you played that incorporates all, or even most, of the same gameplay mechanics as GW2?
GW2 doesn't have dedicated roles, it doesn't have quest hubs, it doesn't have gear-based progression, it has automatic level scaling, it has content that scales to the number of players, it has a global(rather than server-based) economy, it has PvP that is completely independent of gear, it has 3-faction large scale PvP when every MMO in the past decade has had only 2-factions.
Sure, a few games have had a few of the above characteristics, but no game to date has incorporated all of the features GW2 has brought to the table.
If you want to see what a generic game looks like just take a look at SWTOR and WAR. From everything you say it sounds like you are just tired of fantasy MMOs.
I've explained it. The implementation chosen requires each player be fully aware of every other player in the group. That's for the dungeons. As group sizes would increase, so would the demand for awareness placed on each player in the team. The burden would exceed the abilities of the average gamer. It's just info overload. That's why we have roles in traditional groups. I don't have a way for the non trinity system to work. I have a hard time seeing it, but I'll accept it's possible. But of what i've seen in it's current implementation, I think we are at about the limit of what a coordinated group can be before that coordination breaks down. And the evidence is present. Look at the big raid fights. They are lacklustre at best.
think about this for a second.. look at the 5 man dungeons in this game currently and how many issues people so stuck on trinity games are having.. now imagine if they made the open world bosses complex encounters people would be having a field day as they could not complete the content.. open world stuff should be more accessable this way imho.. But now saying that look what happens once a good group knows the dungeons in this game... they are blazing through them in 30 min which would take others hours to get through... now look at the scenario i typed above why would something like that not work with a well coordinated raid in this type of game?
also i'd try the dragon fights now when the areas are not completely oversaturated with people like they were couple weeks ago they are a LOT more fun
Your key words are "good group" That's where it falls apart. Hell it's hard enough in the trinity. Much less a game with increased siuational awareness requirements. I think it's more the human factor when I am talking about the least common denominator. Most just won't get it
I'm having trouble with you thoughts on this. But shouldn't a "good group" be the ones that succeed in ANY dungeon, even raid dungeons for trinity games? I'm not talking about a "great group" or an "amazing group" or a "flawless group" here. But I'm talking about a group with basic knowledge of the encounters who are all responsive and aware of the fights to a degree that a "good" player will have. Not an average or weak player. Because those players should not be able to get through the tough stuff in any MMO game, or any game actually. I believe that if a player wants to succeed in an MMO, or any game for that matter, they should at least take some time to study how the game works, such as encounters in a dungeon, and I'm not talking like ridiculous amounts, but gathering a basic understanding of the game should be key to succeeding in it. I would be highly highly dissapointed in any game that I can just jump in and without much effort at all, breeze my way through it...*cough* Diablo 3 *cough*.
So your saying that because MOST players would not have the proper situational awareness requirements that a dungeon with more than 5 player cap (a raid dungeon) in GW2 would fail? That tells me a couple things. First off, your pretty much insulting gamers intelligence on a pretty large scale (although there are some cases where I wouldn't dissagree with you on this point, lol) and secondly, that you believe that difficult games should not be made because the majority of players wouldn't be able to complete them because they lack the "good player" quality to do it. And that's just a silly notion in it's own right.
GW2's lack of the trinity system is a breakthrough in MMO gaming, and this being the first game of it's kind, I can understand some skepticism in believeing that it can achieve the things that the holy trinity has achieved. But to believe that it CANNOT achieve those things straight up, is downright naive and incredibly close minded.
In response to your 1st paragraph, I am not talking about individual players, I am talking about the law of averages. When you PUG dungeons, you are going to get bad players. That's just the way it is. Now, at the same time, and historically in games such as WoW, time does prove to overcome this as even the worst players eventually either learn what to do, or just outgear the dungeons. But in GW2, that 2nd option is not possible.
No, I'm not saying most players. I'm saying the "One you got stuck with in your group that doesn't" situation that always seems to happen in PUGs.
I would say the GW2 system is a break away, not a break through. You can call me closed minded, but to me I've seen the effect. It's very limited. If I were to say that a non-trinity system will never work, then sure, that's closed minded, but I'm not saying that. What I am saying is GW2's system is limited, it's an observation. I have said before, Look at the lack luster boss fights. Look at one of the biggest complaints about the dungeon system in the past 6 weeks of threads here, many have said the same thing. The fact that you disagree doesn't make me any more or less ignorant of any "facts". The non-trinity system of GW2, did not go over as well with the "masses" as was previously hoped.
How is this a bad thing?? Overtime the community learns to overcome difficult obstacles using their skill instead of using whatever great gear they can scrounge together. All positive there. Also, due to the fact that the dungeons are actually difficult in this game, it gives people incentives to be social and gather friends to do a dungeon instead of a PUG. Also, a positive thing.
Your only argument that your providing that the system is limited is that it's a non-trinity game, and that people on the forums complain about the dungeons. The only reason people complain about the dungeon's is because they get their asses kicked and instead of learning why they are constantly dying and losing, they decide it must be the game's fault. "It's a new system, it's the system that's flawed, not me, I'm the best player in the world!" I know this because people who have actually learned the dungeons have a great time playing them, and die far less frequently. And people who die frequently in my groups always play the same record "omg, this game's system is so broken!" even though I'm watching how terrible they are playing.
Judging from your argument's so far, your taking all your facts just from what you hear on these forums instead of asking what people think who are playing the game. Oh, you can't ask them, because they are all enjoying it right now. The massive amounts of great reviews are also an indication of just how much the "masses" "dislike" this game.
Quite frankly, the majority of those reviews were written in the first few weeks. There is a large amount of people all over the internet who are complaining that GW2 is too repetitive and gets boring quickly. Reviews don't hold weight when given after a few weeks of play when the game is an MMO that is designed to maintain a persons interests over a long period of time. I am not saying GW2 is a bad game, just that many of the ideas may have been better in theory rather than implementation. A lot of people thought they wanted a "change", but in the end, that wasn't the case. Often things are a certain way for a reason. I am not saying that new things shouldn't be tried, but maybe such drastic changes to mechanics and gameplay on all levels may have been too much.
Quite frankly, the majority of those reviews were written in the first few weeks. There is a large amount of people all over the internet who are complaining that GW2 is too repetitive and gets boring quickly. Reviews don't hold weight when given after a few weeks of play when the game is an MMO that is designed to maintain a persons interests over a long period of time. I am not saying GW2 is a bad game, just that many of the ideas may have been better in theory rather than implementation. A lot of people thought they wanted a "change", but in the end, that wasn't the case. Often things are a certain way for a reason. I am not saying that new things shouldn't be tried, but maybe such drastic changes to mechanics and gameplay on all levels may have been too much.
people don't know what they want and that's the problem.. everyone wants something differn't so you basically just need to follow whatever game has systems that interest you..
Also your last line is funny since i keep seeing all these wow clone posts pop up now also.. never seen such bipolar opinions from people on a game before. Usually it's just I hate this game I love this game stuff for MMOs.. But for GW2 it's a hate x because it's too hard and the next thread is I hate x because it's to easy. Seen almost every complaint about this game have a thread with someone complaining about the same thing but exact opposite of what was just recently complained about.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Quite frankly, the majority of those reviews were written in the first few weeks. There is a large amount of people all over the internet who are complaining that GW2 is too repetitive and gets boring quickly. Reviews don't hold weight when given after a few weeks of play when the game is an MMO that is designed to maintain a persons interests over a long period of time. I am not saying GW2 is a bad game, just that many of the ideas may have been better in theory rather than implementation. A lot of people thought they wanted a "change", but in the end, that wasn't the case. Often things are a certain way for a reason. I am not saying that new things shouldn't be tried, but maybe such drastic changes to mechanics and gameplay on all levels may have been too much.
people don't know what they want and that's the problem.. everyone wants something differn't so you basically just need to follow whatever game has systems that interest you..
Also your last line is funny since i keep seeing all these wow clone posts pop up now also.. never seen such bipolar opinions from people on a game before. Usually it's just I hate this game I love this game stuff for MMOs.. But for GW2 it's a hate x because it's too hard and the next thread is I hate x because it's to easy. Seen almost every complaint about this game have a thread with someone complaining about the same thing but exact opposite of what was just recently complained about.
So you are looking for absolutes? because experinces are going to vary from player to player. For me other than champs and dungeons GW2 is mind numbingly easy however others might find it difficult.
Bipolar would be correct term if same person is saying game is too easy and difficult at same time, not when different players share different experinces.
Quite frankly, the majority of those reviews were written in the first few weeks. There is a large amount of people all over the internet who are complaining that GW2 is too repetitive and gets boring quickly. Reviews don't hold weight when given after a few weeks of play when the game is an MMO that is designed to maintain a persons interests over a long period of time. I am not saying GW2 is a bad game, just that many of the ideas may have been better in theory rather than implementation. A lot of people thought they wanted a "change", but in the end, that wasn't the case. Often things are a certain way for a reason. I am not saying that new things shouldn't be tried, but maybe such drastic changes to mechanics and gameplay on all levels may have been too much.
people don't know what they want and that's the problem.. everyone wants something differn't so you basically just need to follow whatever game has systems that interest you..
Also your last line is funny since i keep seeing all these wow clone posts pop up now also.. never seen such bipolar opinions from people on a game before. Usually it's just I hate this game I love this game stuff for MMOs.. But for GW2 it's a hate x because it's too hard and the next thread is I hate x because it's to easy. Seen almost every complaint about this game have a thread with someone complaining about the same thing but exact opposite of what was just recently complained about.
So you are looking for absolutes? because experinces are going to vary from player to player. For me other than champs and dungeons GW2 is mind numbingly easy however others might find it difficult.
Bipolar would be correct term if same person is saying game is too easy and difficult at same time, not when various players share different experinces.
I think Aerowyn is referring to the MMORPG.com community as a whole.
Quite frankly, the majority of those reviews were written in the first few weeks. There is a large amount of people all over the internet who are complaining that GW2 is too repetitive and gets boring quickly. Reviews don't hold weight when given after a few weeks of play when the game is an MMO that is designed to maintain a persons interests over a long period of time. I am not saying GW2 is a bad game, just that many of the ideas may have been better in theory rather than implementation. A lot of people thought they wanted a "change", but in the end, that wasn't the case. Often things are a certain way for a reason. I am not saying that new things shouldn't be tried, but maybe such drastic changes to mechanics and gameplay on all levels may have been too much.
people don't know what they want and that's the problem.. everyone wants something differn't so you basically just need to follow whatever game has systems that interest you..
Also your last line is funny since i keep seeing all these wow clone posts pop up now also.. never seen such bipolar opinions from people on a game before. Usually it's just I hate this game I love this game stuff for MMOs.. But for GW2 it's a hate x because it's too hard and the next thread is I hate x because it's to easy. Seen almost every complaint about this game have a thread with someone complaining about the same thing but exact opposite of what was just recently complained about.
So you are looking for absolutes? because experinces are going to vary from player to player. For me other than champs and dungeons GW2 is mind numbingly easy however others might find it difficult.
Bipolar would be correct term if same person is making two opposite complains not when various players share different experinces.
contradicting better for you?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Comments
Or maye he's thinking that components such as Dodge really aren't all that innovative.
GW2:
Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "Dodge" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "GW2 combat is so AWESOME!"
WoW:
Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "interrupt" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "WoW combat really sux!"
but now that you said that....just so that I can argue my points and just so you cannot make this excuse...I will play through the game...might take a while cuz I dont like it...but I will take a toon from 1-80...I will also run dungeons...every one of them, just so that I can give you the same answer in the end. I've got nothing to do (after work), so I might as well...this way, I can remove half of GW2 fanatics excuses for when I want to argue a point.
Matter of fact, you can tell me what class and what race you want me to be...Ill take screenshots and everything...Ill name my toon Randayn too so you know Im not lying.
lol now that's what i call someone with a grudge.. so sad some people are this inclined to put down a great game.
Also never ceases to amaze me people say they put over 100 hours into a game they feel is shallow and mediocre.. honestly it's $60 bucks If I don't enjoy a game within the first 10 hours I'm out. I don't see the need to "suffer" my way through just to feel i got my moneys worth
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
why talk about offtanking in raids? thought we were discussing dungeon bosses?
dungeons in most mmos are for 5 to 6 players
you havent demonstrated how the trinity in a 5man dungeon is more strategic than nontrinity
EQ2 fan sites
... or even a bad game to be honest. I can't tell what I think of that behavior without breaking a forum rule, but some people really take games (and a few other things too) way too seriously.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
It's not about that. It's not personal either, although you've probably seen me get hot-headed...it will never be personal...that would be stupid of me.
It's about the direction of the MMO industry and the fact that I disagree with it. I believe that the direction is headed toward 3 different things that will ultimately (and already have) dumbed down and watered down the experience:
1. Single Player experience from start to finish - dont mind solo'ing...I love it, but Im still a big believer that every game should have parts in the leveling conquest that force you to team up...in the open world and in dungeons
2. Catering to the masses rather than retaining the integrity of the genre
3. making combat preperation, skills and combat itself feel more like an FPS than an MMORPG. That's what PVP is for...not PVE...I dont want to twitch all over the place. I want to prepare for battle so I dont have to twitch when I get there.
But I am serious about making through the entire game....choose the class and race...I'll do it.
very true.. good or bad it's all obviously subjective to the individual.. so what's the use of continuously bashing any game to flex your "i know better than everyone else" muscle to everyone.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
if you are that inlcined play an elementalist.. race is up to you whatever you like
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
What I've demonstrated, time and time again, is that developers cannot develop a rich and deep strategy in a dungeon setting if there is no trinity to base it on. So, in a way, inadvertantly, yes, it does take more strategy and preperation with a trinity, but only if the devs are worth their salt.
That's been my argument from the start.
My other argument that is seperate from this, is twitch vs. preperation. That has nothing to do with my dungeon/raid/trinity argument. Please don't mix the two together.
just odd because most games that came out in the last decade follow this(aside from maybe #3) yet you single out GW2
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
It may seem silly to some, but I have very few things Im passionate about and I will always be vocal. Politics, philosophy and MMORPGs.
If this is your motive I don't see how you get what you desire. Your influence on a discussion forum is already big time discounted by game makers who, from there data, know that this is a very tiny minority of players. You'd be much better off putting your time, energy and passion into building the game you want in the direction you want it to go. I know it's easier just to play games you don't like and bash them on forums. Thats alot of, imho, mis-directed energy.
Personally, I like where guild wars 2 is headed. I know my 2 cents isn't worth much either.
I totally agree with you there. Im not singling out anything. Im pointing out the giant...why worry about the dwarf?
I wish I had the knowledge and money to make a game...I have neither...but as a consumer, I can complain all I want...we are the ultimate judge of success and failure (unless the government intervenes)
thought wow was the giant? according to these forums GW2 is just the next one to fade into the darkness so why worry?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I don't think that at all. Im angry that it's so popular (and I wont ever say it's not), because I believe it sets a bad precedent for the direction of future MMORPG's. that's my gripe. I do think it's a very generic game, from what I've played though. But that is bound to happen when you try to cater to the masses...you must dumb and water down.
instead of saying time and time again -- give me a 5man dungeon example
the critical difference between trinity and no trinity is Taunt or lack of it
I disagree that mmos that use taunt make a game more complex and strategic
instanced raids, as far as im concerned, are 20 man dungeons and GW2 does not have those
there are no instanced raids in GW2 at this time
EQ2 fan sites
"Cast bar"?
In GW2?
Do you guys play the game or just make up stuff?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
How is this a bad thing?? Overtime the community learns to overcome difficult obstacles using their skill instead of using whatever great gear they can scrounge together. All positive there. Also, due to the fact that the dungeons are actually difficult in this game, it gives people incentives to be social and gather friends to do a dungeon instead of a PUG. Also, a positive thing.
Your only argument that your providing that the system is limited is that it's a non-trinity game, and that people on the forums complain about the dungeons. The only reason people complain about the dungeon's is because they get their asses kicked and instead of learning why they are constantly dying and losing, they decide it must be the game's fault. "It's a new system, it's the system that's flawed, not me, I'm the best player in the world!" I know this because people who have actually learned the dungeons have a great time playing them, and die far less frequently. And people who die frequently in my groups always play the same record "omg, this game's system is so broken!" even though I'm watching how terrible they are playing.
Judging from your argument's so far, your taking all your facts just from what you hear on these forums instead of asking what people think who are playing the game. Oh, you can't ask them, because they are all enjoying it right now. The massive amounts of great reviews are also an indication of just how much the "masses" "dislike" this game.
WoW was your first MMO wasn't it? Everything you claim makes a game "play like WoW" has been around since Everquest.
What you mean to say is GW2 plays like an MMORPG, which is obvious since it IS an MMORPG.
Sorry but GW2 is anything but generic. What other MMO have you played that incorporates all, or even most, of the same gameplay mechanics as GW2?
GW2 doesn't have dedicated roles, it doesn't have quest hubs, it doesn't have gear-based progression, it has automatic level scaling, it has content that scales to the number of players, it has a global(rather than server-based) economy, it has PvP that is completely independent of gear, it has 3-faction large scale PvP when every MMO in the past decade has had only 2-factions.
Sure, a few games have had a few of the above characteristics, but no game to date has incorporated all of the features GW2 has brought to the table.
If you want to see what a generic game looks like just take a look at SWTOR and WAR. From everything you say it sounds like you are just tired of fantasy MMOs.
Quite frankly, the majority of those reviews were written in the first few weeks. There is a large amount of people all over the internet who are complaining that GW2 is too repetitive and gets boring quickly. Reviews don't hold weight when given after a few weeks of play when the game is an MMO that is designed to maintain a persons interests over a long period of time. I am not saying GW2 is a bad game, just that many of the ideas may have been better in theory rather than implementation. A lot of people thought they wanted a "change", but in the end, that wasn't the case. Often things are a certain way for a reason. I am not saying that new things shouldn't be tried, but maybe such drastic changes to mechanics and gameplay on all levels may have been too much.
people don't know what they want and that's the problem.. everyone wants something differn't so you basically just need to follow whatever game has systems that interest you..
Also your last line is funny since i keep seeing all these wow clone posts pop up now also.. never seen such bipolar opinions from people on a game before. Usually it's just I hate this game I love this game stuff for MMOs.. But for GW2 it's a hate x because it's too hard and the next thread is I hate x because it's to easy. Seen almost every complaint about this game have a thread with someone complaining about the same thing but exact opposite of what was just recently complained about.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
So you are looking for absolutes? because experinces are going to vary from player to player. For me other than champs and dungeons GW2 is mind numbingly easy however others might find it difficult.
Bipolar would be correct term if same person is saying game is too easy and difficult at same time, not when different players share different experinces.
I think Aerowyn is referring to the MMORPG.com community as a whole.
contradicting better for you?
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg