Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

First person MMORPGS, what do you think of the concept?

strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member

Most MMORPGs are designed in third person or a tactical birds eye view. What about a first person MMORPG? Personally, I never understood why they are not done in first person. First person games are the most immersive, and MMORPGs are the most immersive genre, so naturally, a first-person MMORPG would be very immersive, indeed.

What would you think of a MMORPG designed this way? It would show your character's weapons like a first person game, and likely also have real-time combat like an FPS, however, it would still be about leveling up, exploring, doing quests, etc, like an RPG

«134

Comments

  • KenaoshiKenaoshi Porto AlegrePosts: 1,016Member Uncommon

    hmm, not against, since i like Elder Scrolls play style, but combat and character customization DOES suck in first person, which is nto the eye candy for mmos.

    Unless you have Half-Life like puzzles all around i say no.

    now: GW2 (11 80s).
    Dark Souls 2.
    future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
    "Bro, do your even fractal?"
    Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,690Member Uncommon

    I personally prefer 1st person, though I also came from 1st person shooters before MMOs so I was already accustomed to it.

    But in MMOs youre likely going to wind up witht he same whining as you used to in shooters. In shooters that didnt have 3rd person view people would cry all the time because they cant do things like hide behind a wall and see whats around the corner and avoid getting shot. Playing in 1st person forced them to take their chances sticking their head out, and if they werent fast enough they were screwed.

    A huge portion of MMO players would make the same complaint, that they cant see everything around them and have to actually pay attention tot heir surroundings. I agree, 1st person is much more immersive, but a lot of the so-called supporters of immersion would throw a hissy fit without their unrealistic birds eye view of their character keeping them safe from people sneaking up behind them.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member

    I'm all for choices. There are times when I want to be in first person view. Most of the time, though, I prefer the third person aspect.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member

    Nothing would be greater than having a minimalist UI, surround sound (or headphones), and venturing deep underground to fight say a giant centipede with a group of people. For such a game to work, I'd also have collision with mobs and players, to prevent walking through them (and adding nudging to prevent people from blocking areas, yes there's no perfect solution to it, but nudging would work decently enough).

    I've always enjoyed FPS games as the other poster said, but if you could have a huge world to explore from a first person perspective, it would really be incredible.

    I'd disable third person entirely, and yes, you'd need situational awareness, but I think that would add to the fun.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon
    First person perspective doesn't let you see what's going on well enough to make a decent game.  Lots of MMORPGs give you a choice of a first person or third person perspective.  If you think of them as purely third person games, that's your choice.  If you say it's because the first person perspective isn't viable because third person gives enormous gameplay advantages, then that's because of the first sentence in this reply.  It's intrinsic to a first person perspective, and not something you can design around.  If you want to make first person perspective viable by forcing everyone to use it, then that just cripples everyone and makes the game horrible for everyone, not just for you.
  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    It can add to the feeling of being a character in a virtual world, no doubt about it.  I guess the rest depends on if the UI is built for it.  In GW2, I know it would be really nice to be able to zoom in when you're stuck in pipes, etc... but that's not really the same thing.  If anything, it should at least be considered an option.
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    I have yet to experience a satisfying way of making melee combat in first person view. Condemned: Criminal Origins was decent but I doubt it would merge well with progression. Elder Scrolls'/Arx Fatalis' way is fairly dull - not good enough, imo.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    First person perspective doesn't let you see what's going on well enough to make a decent game.  Lots of MMORPGs give you a choice of a first person or third person perspective.  If you think of them as purely third person games, that's your choice.  If you say it's because the first person perspective isn't viable because third person gives enormous gameplay advantages, then that's because of the first sentence in this reply.  It's intrinsic to a first person perspective, and not something you can design around.  If you want to make first person perspective viable by forcing everyone to use it, then that just cripples everyone and makes the game horrible for everyone, not just for you.

    So are you saying that FPS games aren't viable?

    The game would obviously be designed differently than third person games.

    I would disable third person entirely in such a game, and you'll see plenty of examples of FPS games being extremely succesful (Doom, Quake, Counterstrike, just to name a few).

    The MMORPG elements of gear and wealth collection, a static world, raisable attritbutes, etc, would be implemented in this context.

    Also, those MMORPGs that give you the option of first person, are normally a joke in comparison to the third person (as you stated). In order to do it right, the first person nature would need to be designed ideally, so that the game would function with this in mind (there are numerous FPS single-player games to illustrate this).

    The only difference would be having numerous players, but for a PvP perspective, this wouldn't be any different then a normal FPS experience, for PvE, said raiding or many players against a great big boss, that's not hard to design for, if you consider players forming a circular formation around a boss.

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member

    I completely agree with you. The worlds that are being created are suffering due to the dominance of third person view.

    Despite what players say, you just cant get the same level of immersion or attachment to your character.

    its the same as having a baseball thrown to you, compared to seeing someone throw a baseball to someone else from the stands.

     

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    I have yet to experience a satisfying way of making melee combat in first person view. Condemned: Criminal Origins was decent but I doubt it would merge well with progression. Elder Scrolls' way is fairly dull, I think.

    If you want a game that really simulates pretty good melee FPS combat, try out Pirates, Vikings, and Knights II.

    It is a free Steam mod that does it pretty well. It has directional attacks that you can charge, as well as the option to raise a shield to block or shield bash, and you can also directionally parry as well.

    Ultimately though, with future technology, I'd like to see directional-based damage.

    Like hitting someone's unarmoured arm to sever it, or having the weapon parried based on a 3D swing.

    Right now though, that's somewhat beyond current technology (to my knowledge), but a way like PVKII is pretty solid.

  • Hell_HammerHell_Hammer BelgradePosts: 75Member

    People would complain that they actually have to pay attention and show some skill other than button mashing, and the 1st person view could very well lead to some twitch based combat that could drive away a large chunk of an audience.

     

    I personally wouldn't mind.

    The only problem that I'd have is that I really like to see my char and how he awesome he looks in that new suit of armor.

    With 1st person, you'd spent most of the time staring at your gloves and weapons and not much else of your char.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by strangewizard

    Most MMORPGs are designed in third person or a tactical birds eye view. What about a first person MMORPG? Personally, I never understood why they are not done in first person. First person games are the most immersive, and MMORPGs are the most immersive genre, so naturally, a first-person MMORPG would be very immersive, indeed.

    What would you think of a MMORPG designed this way? It would show your character's weapons like a first person game, and likely also have real-time combat like an FPS, however, it would still be about leveling up, exploring, doing quests, etc, like an RPG

    Melee combat is far more visually appealing in third person for starters. Also all of that fun customization on how your character looks and what he/she wears is lost once you're in first person which diminishes a big part of the experience for people. Watching your character do things is just fun for a lot of people. And of course there is being able to zoom out and look at everything from different angles.

     

    That is why they are almost all third person.

     

    That said things that are shooter based would be fun to have forced first person. I still think a game focused all around melee combat would feel clunky from a first person view.

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member
    Originally posted by rungard

    I completely agree with you. The worlds that are being created are suffering due to the dominance of third person view.

    Despite what players say, you just cant get the same level of immersion or attachment to your character.

    its the as having a baseball thrown to you, compared to seeing someone throw a baseball to someone else from the stands.

     

    Indeed!

    Not only that, with good surround sound or directional headphones, you could hear that baseball whizzing from the left or right, and if it hit you, you'd hear it from the left head phone or right head phone, based on where your character was hit.

    Combine this with footsteps, directional ambience like a torch making a crackling sound to the frontal right or back right of you, and you really get a huge immersion factor.

    With good enough technology, being able to move your view around like it was resting on your head, and seeing your character's body, really is an interesting experience.

    If you play an FPS game in a dark room, with headphones or really good surround sound, alone, and play it for several hours (especially if tired), you can really get drawn in and feel like you are the character.

    It is a great feeling in the context of a MMORPG, and you get a real sense of horror in a dark environment, and a real sense of beauty in a beautifull idyllic forest.

    Plus, it completely changes combat. If you made it active combat, to where you had to swing a sword, aim a gun, or wave your arms to cast a spell, it also adds to the experience.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,425Member Uncommon
    Put a pair of goggles on and walk around for a while, then tell me how immersive it would be.

    Once upon a time....

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by strangewizard
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    I have yet to experience a satisfying way of making melee combat in first person view. Condemned: Criminal Origins was decent but I doubt it would merge well with progression. Elder Scrolls' way is fairly dull, I think.

    If you want a game that really simulates pretty good melee FPS combat, try out Pirates, Vikings, and Knights II.

    It is a free Steam mod that does it pretty well. It has directional attacks that you can charge, as well as the option to raise a shield to block or shield bash, and you can also directionally parry as well.

    Ultimately though, with future technology, I'd like to see directional-based damage.

    Like hitting someone's unarmoured arm to sever it, or having the weapon parried based on a 3D swing.

    Right now though, that's somewhat beyond current technology (to my knowledge), but a way like PVKII is pretty solid.

    What do you mean by directional based damage? Because if you mean the Morrowind style then thats bad.

    I think you mean connecting hits. Yeah Die by the Sword was... special to say the least, but such combat systems have been quite shallow beoyond the twitch element. It would be worthwhile to merge it with combos and stances though: In a way that only a limited number of moves would be available after say a slash from left to right and different stances would give alternate options to those.

    EDIT: But I would still think a 3rd person view is much better for melee fighting.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    First person perspective doesn't let you see what's going on well enough to make a decent game.  Lots of MMORPGs give you a choice of a first person or third person perspective.  If you think of them as purely third person games, that's your choice.  If you say it's because the first person perspective isn't viable because third person gives enormous gameplay advantages, then that's because of the first sentence in this reply.  It's intrinsic to a first person perspective, and not something you can design around.  If you want to make first person perspective viable by forcing everyone to use it, then that just cripples everyone and makes the game horrible for everyone, not just for you.

    Thats exactly the kind of stuff i was referring to in my 1st post. How exactly are you "crippled"? Are you crippled IRL because you see things from 1st person view? No. You learn to pay attention to your surroundings and be more careful, as well as learning to listen for things going on around you.

    I used to play a lot of FPS games, and I used to be able to post up in 1 spot and tell my team exactly where enemies were and how many of them there are in each position, and know exactly when to move in for the attack and catch them in the middle of reloading / swapping weapons / checking the other direction just from learning to listen to the sounds. It was something I also forced my clan to learn, and we held the highest rankings in several games for a long time because of such tactics. 1st person view didnt cripple us in the slightest. It simply made those who adjusted to the realism better at actual fighting, not good at hiding behind stuff and using 3rd person view to see everything that is going on which is completely unrealistic.

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member
    Originally posted by Hell_Hammer

    People would complain that they actually have to pay attention and show some skill other than button mashing, and the 1st person view could very well lead to some twitch based combat that could drive away a large chunk of an audience.

     

    I personally wouldn't mind.

    The only problem that I'd have is that I really like to see my char and how he awesome he looks in that new suit of armor.

    With 1st person, you'd spent most of the time staring at your gloves and weapons and not much else of your char.

    The skill argument would still be mitigated as people who lacked good FPS skill could compete by having better gear, people with better FPS skill could beat people with better gear through sheer skill.

    About seeing your character; this would simply be a matter of having numerous reflective surfaces in-game, such as pools of water, mirrors, etc, all placed throughout the world so you'd stumble into them often.

    Much like in real life how people see themselves in a great suit or dress, but only in the mirror. Placing the mirrors subtetly would make people stop and reflect, and move on, appreciating their appearance. Plus you'd see other players, and know they are seeing you. Look at Team Fortress 2's hat business, and how numerous people buy them, despite never seeing them yourself in normal gameplay.

    To the other person mentioning melee combat being clunky, there are several games that have done it very well, and Pirates, Vikings, and Knights II, is an addictive game, as the melee combat is based on holding down left-click to charge (to raise an axe for example), and releasing to unleash it. It feels natural.

    Also having directional swings adds diversity, although you could replace that with various abilities that melee-based classes in MMORPGS use, in an MMORPG.

    People are often clamouring for fresh ideas here, I think a well-made real-time FPS-based MMORPG that was a sandbox would do quite well.

  • Pumuckl71Pumuckl71 istanbulPosts: 121Member

    With the recent  mmo community theres no concept that will lead to satisfaction . 

    reading all the shit up here (and im including me ) theres no game or gameconcept  that wouldnt get bashed in one way or the other. We are superiour to Devs , we know more bout coding , we know more bout the industries economics ....in fac t they are idiots and we know it all . Read up up all the bullcrap and  negativity  thats going on here . PPl acting like stubborn 4 year olds demanding to get the game they wish for ....totaly disconnected from reality.

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    What do you mean by directional based damage? Because if you mean the Morrowind style then thats bad.

    I think you mean connecting hits. Yeah Die by the Sword was... special to say the least, but such combat systems have been quite shallow beoyond the twitch element. It would be worthwhile to merge it with combos and stances though: In a way that only a limited number of moves would be available after say a slash from left to right and different stances would give alternate options to those.

    EDIT: But I would still think a 3rd person view is much better for melee fighting.

    By directional based damage I mean that you'd swing with the left mouse button, and block or parry with the right mouse button. If you were moving forward with W, your strike would be an overhead swing, if you moved right with D, your strike would be a right-side string, if you moved left with A, your strike would be a left-side strike, and moving backwards with S, would be a bash of the weapon's handle.
     

    So moving right with D and then holding left-click would begin the charge process for a right-side swing. A red bar would fill up (fast for small weapons, slow for large weapons) that would determine how damaging the weapon swing would be if it succesfully hit someone, but it would mean you'd be lifting your weapon without swinging it longer, thus there'd be times not to fully charge a weapon for a quicker hit.

    Fully charging a weapon would do a mini-critical strike, and possibly disarm a target, but could still be parried. However, you couldn't just keep a weapon raised and charged, after a few seconds, the meter would decrease to empty, and you'd have to either swing or lower the weapon to charge it again, thus meaning you should lift your weapon at the proper time.

    It is a very fluid system in practice. However an MMORPG could simply have left mouse click to swing, right click to block or parry, and having your keyboard to use various abilities, like disarm, kick, jumping dragon slash, etc, based on class.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangewizard

    Also, those MMORPGs that give you the option of first person, are normally a joke in comparison to the third person (as you stated). In order to do it right, the first person nature would need to be designed ideally, so that the game would function with this in mind (there are numerous FPS single-player games to illustrate this).

    The reason a first person perspective cripples you isn't bad camera design.  Doing a first person camera perspective is actually substantially easier than third person, as you don't need to worry about objects blocking the camera.  There's simply no way to design a first person perspective that lets you see what's going on anywhere near as well as a third person perspective.  As you note, there have been many first person shooters, and none of them have figured out.  The only thing they can do to make the game playable for PVE is to make it a lot less challenging than they could if you had a clearer view of what was going on.

  • plutosamsplutosams Seattle, WAPosts: 49Member
    The problem with first person view is that it actually shrinks the viewable space considerably compared to real life.  It is comparable to wearing goggles with side blinders.  Our eyes see a lot more than what is just ahead of us.  Third person, while overexaggerating actually gets closer to the the real life field of view...obviously adding a bit since you can see your character and a bit more to the sides than normal.  The only way first person would truly work for immersion is to have a headset with monitors covering all fields of vision.   Currently first person view is closer to running around looking through a video camera rather than through real vision fields. 
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by strangewizard
    Originally posted by Quirhid

     

    By directional based damage I mean that you'd swing with the left mouse button, and block or parry with the right mouse button. If you were moving forward with W, your strike would be an overhead swing, if you moved right with D, your strike would be a right-side string, if you moved left with A, your strike would be a left-side strike, and moving backwards with S, would be a bash of the weapon's handle.
     

    So moving right with D and then holding left-click would begin the charge process for a right-side swing. A red bar would fill up (fast for small weapons, slow for large weapons) that would determine how damaging the weapon swing would be if it succesfully hit someone, but it would mean you'd be lifting your weapon without swinging it longer, thus there'd be times not to fully charge a weapon for a quicker hit.

    Fully charging a weapon would do a mini-critical strike, and possibly disarm a target, but could still be parried. However, you couldn't just keep a weapon raised and charged, after a few seconds, the meter would decrease to empty, and you'd have to either swing or lower the weapon to charge it again, thus meaning you should lift your weapon at the proper time.

    It is a very fluid system in practice. However an MMORPG could simply have left mouse click to swing, right click to block or parry, and having your keyboard to use various abilities, like disarm, kick, jumping dragon slash, etc, based on class.

    What you describe sounds pretty much how it works in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim and I didn't care for it much. The Mount & Blade/War of the Roses style where you actually "swing" your mouse to determine the direction of your slash/stab or block is a lot more intuitive for me.

    And its in third person view. image

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by strangewizard

    Also, those MMORPGs that give you the option of first person, are normally a joke in comparison to the third person (as you stated). In order to do it right, the first person nature would need to be designed ideally, so that the game would function with this in mind (there are numerous FPS single-player games to illustrate this).

    The reason a first person perspective cripples you isn't bad camera design.  Doing a first person camera perspective is actually substantially easier than third person, as you don't need to worry about objects blocking the camera.  There's simply no way to design a first person perspective that lets you see what's going on anywhere near as well as a third person perspective.  As you note, there have been many first person shooters, and none of them have figured out.  The only thing they can do to make the game playable for PVE is to make it a lot less challenging than they could if you had a clearer view of what was going on.

    I played Quake 2 with a FOW of 120*. It actually bothers me that newer games have set the FOW to 90. It has to be atleast 100 for me to feel comfortable.

    (* field of view = 120 degrees)

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by strangewizard

    Nothing would be greater than having a minimalist UI, surround sound (or headphones), and venturing deep underground to fight say a giant centipede with a group of people. For such a game to work, I'd also have collision with mobs and players, to prevent walking through them (and adding nudging to prevent people from blocking areas, yes there's no perfect solution to it, but nudging would work decently enough).

    I've always enjoyed FPS games as the other poster said, but if you could have a huge world to explore from a first person perspective, it would really be incredible.

    I'd disable third person entirely, and yes, you'd need situational awareness, but I think that would add to the fun.

    I think the best way it could be implemented would be in a survival horror game. That way the first person perspective is directly adding something rather than taking something away. You have the scare of if those zombies (or whatever other creatures are terrorizing you) are right behind you.

     

    Where as if you tried to take an existing game like WoW, GW2, etc and said "Ok, it is the same game, but you only get first person" people would hate it because you took something from them instead of adding something to the experience.

  • strangewizardstrangewizard Anywhere, SCPosts: 42Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    The reason a first person perspective cripples you isn't bad camera design.  Doing a first person camera perspective is actually substantially easier than third person, as you don't need to worry about objects blocking the camera.  There's simply no way to design a first person perspective that lets you see what's going on anywhere near as well as a third person perspective.  As you note, there have been many first person shooters, and none of them have figured out.  The only thing they can do to make the game playable for PVE is to make it a lot less challenging than they could if you had a clearer view of what was going on.

    Depends on the PvE content.

    Let's use a standard raid analogy. Say you are in a big dark cavern with a giant centipede raid boss. This centipede fights the players, and occasionally moves around the cavern, swiping anyone he catches in his path. Sometimes, rocks fall from the roof of the cave, and you must avoid them.

    First off, all the player's eyes will be focused on the centipede, so you don't have to make the fight less challenging, but you can also have things happening from a different perspective (above you), by using clever markers (like a big shadow appearing around you as a rock is about to fall).

    Thus it can be very hard to avoid the rocks, and the centipede when he moves. The fight is far more immersive, because again, first person is that way by nature, but the difficulty is the same as  a third person fight.

    You just need to know ways of making it difficult with that camera setting.

«134
Sign In or Register to comment.