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Has Arena Net eliminated the support roles?

YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.

Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.

Discuss...

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Comments

  • RivalenRivalen TaviraPosts: 503Member

    I disagree...

     

     

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Yamota

    The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.Discuss...

     

    On Guardian when I play full support I use Staff and Scepter/Shield. Staff gives me a wall, AoE Heal and Might stacking Buff. I have shouts that can buff and remove conditions. I can spec my virtues to buff in numerous ways along with giving there passives to others. I have reflective barriers that will send projectiles back at there source. I have Shields that can protect an area completely and I have Buffs to my rez capabilities. I have numerous heals to heal others.

    When I choose to be support I have all the tools I need to do so. The problem tends to be that there are many that refuse to adapt or learn the game and decide that the only thing they can do is go DPS.
  • StayonboardStayonboard Vancouver, BCPosts: 77Member
    I assume that your not 80, that would explain your reasoning.

    Leveling, for sure dps is the way to go if your not running dungeons. Thing change tho and glass cannons really fare very poorly later in the game. You will suck going full dps and support is far more viable.
  • HarttzHarttz Jacksonville, FLPosts: 91Member

    There aren't any pure support specs but there are definitely ones that are more support-oriented. Everybody has to dps some and support some in this game. It is just a question of whether you are 80% dps and 20% support, 20% dps and 80% support, or somewhere in between.

    For example, I like playing as an Auramancer on my Elementalist which is focused around sharing Elementalist-only Auras with other players and in the process maintaing 100% uptime on Fury (+20% crit chance) and Swiftness for the entire group. I also use the 30 points in the Water tree to do more group healing and condition-removing.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Stayonboard
    I assume that your not 80, that would explain your reasoning.

    Leveling, for sure dps is the way to go if your not running dungeons. Thing change tho and glass cannons really fare very poorly later in the game. You will suck going full dps and support is far more viable.

    Agreed. I think a 100% support might be bad though, but 75-90% is very useful in later content.

    I remember my guilds first dungeon, we had 3 players who specced glass canon with mostly blue gear (which they didnt tell about until when they died a few times). Lol, those 3 died so much and made us wipe more than I feel should be viable even on a first try. And that was in storymode....

    Everyone should have at least a little support and some survival speccing in my opinion.

  • dasX82dasX82 TenerifePosts: 84Member
    They removed the healer ,the tank and almost the support classes too to the point to build a support character focused only in support is useless becouse it is not able to give enought support and lost a lot of DPS.
    From my point of view they took the other classes as we know them in other games and fit into this "revolutionary" system,
    except as mentioned above, to the above they replaced it with a skill number 6.
  • Stx11Stx11 West Hills, CAPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by Yamota

    The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.

    Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.

    Discuss...

    The part in red is where I think your assessment is both accurate but leads to completely the wrong conclusion.

    Everybody in GW2 can and arguably should contribute some amount of damage, but that doesn't mean you can't make a very strong supporting character.

    I've spent the last 15-19 levels (currently lvl 79) on my Warrior specced for Support. The Tactics Trait Line for Warrior is fantastic for making Support Builds. Warhorn with Banners (and Banners specced for Regen) is a very powerful build. You can also build for Shouts (Buffs, Debuffs, and Heals) and 10 points in Discipline lets your Shouts generate Adrenaline allowing you to build towards your Burst Skill.

    Engineers activating their Med Kits don't even have an attack I don't think as it replaces their Weapon Skills with Support Skills when activated. Guardians and Elementalists for sure have very strong Support Builds as well.

    I wouldn't be surprised if all the Professions have at least one really strong Support Build. Rangers have Spirits and Healing Spring, Necros have Wells and all kinds of Condition-based abilities, Mesmers have a Mantra Healing Build to go along with a lot of Condition/Boon Transfer abiliites. 

    Just messed around with Thief on GuildHead and while they have no "Healing/Support" Build Dual-Pistol with Traps is all about Debuffing and Control.

    There's no "staring at green bars and healing" or "perma-mezz/CC" builds in the game but there most definitely is Support.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    It's stil surprising to me that after all this time it hasn't reall sunk in yet that roles themselves are obsolete in GW2. It's not hard to see when you actually look at your skills. Most skills have varying aspects of damage, control and support attached to them, often more than one, some even have all three. You are intended, at the very heart of the system, to carry a balance of these aspects. The idea is to have a toolbox full of tools to allow you to do various things at need, not one thing all the time (which cooldowns pretty much keep you from being able to do anyhow). Plus anything you do as an individual only gets enhanced by cross combos with others, where for example that chaos storm that's providing AoE damage and control on foes as well as AoE support for allies suddenly becomes even more as people fire through the field or blasters spread chaos armor to you allies in addition.

     

    Combat becomes a lot more engrossing when you have the tools to analyze what's happening and react in ways that you never could by trying to pigeon hole yourself into a single role.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
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  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    No they haven't, certain classes (Elementalist for instance) can spec for and be good at support.

     

    What is happening though is that outside of sPvP tourneys, you never really see it as everyone rolls dps/solo survive in order to cap/zerg on points and farm Glory for vanity item skins.

     

    And in pve, well 99.99999% of the time it just isn't needed, zerg everything and rez/get rezzed at the end.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastPosts: 1,615Member Uncommon
    They haven't really, they just uber nerfed it. It's still there but like aoe rez, aoe heal, cc etc it just does it in smaller numbers. The best method is to be hybrid in GW2 I find as pure dps dies all the time and pure support doesn't do enough dps.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member

    no i dont think so. I used to think they did, but as some others suggested i "learn to play" ...so i did

    i came up with a nice guardian support spec and gave it a few whirls in the dungeons with pickup groups.

    what a difference.

    its more subtle, but it does work.

     

    i would still like to have some kind of stance to switch between that shunts my stats, a "dungeon spec" i and armor model can use on the fly and a utility skill bar change like the weapons to switch these in combat.

     

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member

    Another post which makes me wonder if the OP and me play the same game...

    Support roles are essential in GW2. Having a guardian, or a support elmentalist, or even just a warrior with regen banners with you will change your survivability a lot, in PvE or PvP.

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

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  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    I see alot of posts saying it is possible to spec support but not much details on how. For example, I have a 60ish Elementalist, and no matter how I spec my traits, weapons, change attunement etc my healing is subpar and my CC is inconcistent so I spend atleast 50% doing DPS because all my support skills are on CD.

    To be honest I dont see the point in this. I would much rather be able to swap all those DPS skills to more support skills. More healing, debuffs, buffs and CC than DPS. It is boring to do DPS, I never play DPS roles in MMORPGs but in GW 2, so far, I dont seem to have a choice. Some mention 80/20 support/DPS but please tell me which classes can do that because Elementalist sure cannot.

  • Darkahn21Darkahn21 Brighton, ONPosts: 20Member
    Originally posted by Yamota

    I see alot of posts saying it is possible to spec support but not much details on how. For example, I have a 60ish Elementalist, and no matter how I spec my traits, weapons, change attunement etc my healing is subpar and my CC is inconcistent so I spend atleast 50% doing DPS because all my support skills are on CD.

    To be honest I dont see the point in this. I would much rather be able to swap all those DPS skills to more support skills. More healing, debuffs, buffs and CC than DPS. It is boring to do DPS, I never play DPS roles in MMORPGs but in GW 2, so far, I dont seem to have a choice. Some mention 80/20 support/DPS but please tell me which classes can do that because Elementalist sure cannot.

    http://www.gw2builds.org/view/738038/staff_support_elementalist

     

    Just an example. That particular build specs fully into Water (healing) and secondary into Earth which provides cc and the like. It is very possible to be support elemental. Actually elementalists are some of the best supports along with guardians. It's about playing with your specs and build until you find what works for you.

    image

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Yamota

    I see alot of posts saying it is possible to spec support but not much details on how. For example, I have a 60ish Elementalist, and no matter how I spec my traits, weapons, change attunement etc my healing is subpar and my CC is inconcistent so I spend atleast 50% doing DPS because all my support skills are on CD.

    To be honest I dont see the point in this. I would much rather be able to swap all those DPS skills to more support skills. More healing, debuffs, buffs and CC than DPS. It is boring to do DPS, I never play DPS roles in MMORPGs but in GW 2, so far, I dont seem to have a choice. Some mention 80/20 support/DPS but please tell me which classes can do that because Elementalist sure cannot.

    Staff.

    Heavy spec into Water (30 for Powerful Aura and Cleansing Wave), Arcane (Elemental Attunement) and Earth.

    Arcane Wave or Blast as a utility for an extra combo trigger.

    Gear with Healing so something like Clerics etc.

     

    Spend your time switching between elements, whilst making sure you set up/proc/self run as many combos as you possibly can. Ele is the combo king.

     

    You would be clearly more support than dps and highly effective at it, with blinds, heals, knockbacks/stuns, group buffs, condition application and group condition removal.

     

    That's off the top of my head and no doubt there are a lot of better Ele players who will point out improvements and more depth.

     

     

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • Stx11Stx11 West Hills, CAPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by Yamota

    I see alot of posts saying it is possible to spec support but not much details on how. For example, I have a 60ish Elementalist, and no matter how I spec my traits, weapons, change attunement etc my healing is subpar and my CC is inconcistent so I spend atleast 50% doing DPS because all my support skills are on CD.

    To be honest I dont see the point in this. I would much rather be able to swap all those DPS skills to more support skills. More healing, debuffs, buffs and CC than DPS. It is boring to do DPS, I never play DPS roles in MMORPGs but in GW 2, so far, I dont seem to have a choice. Some mention 80/20 support/DPS but please tell me which classes can do that because Elementalist sure cannot.

    Well to start: http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#McMM9czmlwFMml0FM9MxxazVsoaRc (use the Med Kit and it will replace all your Rifle Skills)

    Also: http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#Mcac9qL9cG0x0Vszsq for a 60 Elementalist. Stay mostly attuned to Water and switch to Air for Control if you want. Every Staff Attack in Water other than 2 Heals and even Water Staff Attack 2 is a Debuff.

  • halflife25halflife25 Toronto, ONPosts: 737Member
    I play Engineer support which is fine for dungeons but i feel completely usless while doing DE's in ORR. I have never played support role outside dungeons which is a shame because if you want to contribute in DE's and get loot you have to dps or lose.
  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Maybe op doesn't recognize support when it happens. When I see someone trying to create space from mob, I cripple.  When I group of mobs are in melee with players I drop a poison cloud with an explosive shot which aside from poisoning, it puts weakness on the mob with the combo.  These are both good examples of support and can offer more if needed. 
  • maddbomber83maddbomber83 Andrews, TXPosts: 422Member

    Every class can fall back into some form of support.  Your idea of no DPS is not even true in Holy Trinity Games.  The Rift Support Classes like Bard and Archon still do damage.  

    I'll give you an off the wall example, Ninja Medic.  


    As someone who loves exploring alternate play styles that lie outside of a profession's core definition, I've been having an absolute blast in WvW using a very survival-oriented support build for a Thief. This setup is a fun change of pace if you grow tired of "jump & kill or die" moments and want to be at the frontlines of massive battles, reviving allies and standing in fires while laughing manically.

     

    A Wuv Wuv build that excels at spreading poision (dot that reduces the healing taken) and battle rezing groups of people in the middle of combat.

     

    My Ranger often runs a build with several spirits that run around with me.  I focus on dropping springs around my allies and using the spirit abilities to heal / buff while spreading bleeds on the enemy.

    The Ranger also does a lot of tackling (speeding after an enemy and then snaring / rooting them) so that my team can get there and take them down.

  • ZzadZzad Palma de MallorcaPosts: 1,332Member Uncommon

    I disagree with OP

    I play Elementalist with Staff in GW2 and i trully enjoy taking my part in group as support,

    OFC i cannot "stand back and support" like you do in other MMOPRGS,instead i have to be a lot more active...avoiding dmg,doing dps and supporting at the same time.

    As an Elementalist i can help with healing my group or just the ones that are tanking the boss at that moment planting a water fountain under their feet to mitigate the dmg they are taking...

    I can also slow mobs using freezing spells on the floor...or knoking them!  I love taking my defense Golem into Battle and let it help with its Shields during battle or just using some fire & earth aoe to increase my group Dps!

    There is PLENTY to do as a support in GW2...!

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  • StayonboardStayonboard Vancouver, BCPosts: 77Member
    I think theres some confusion on the roles "support" and "dps". Every class is going to dps even if they are support. I dont think it's possible to spec 100% for support, the game isn't built that way. So just because you play support that doesn't mean you won't be doing attacks like everyone else, thats why content is easier with support, rather than with dps.

    So, to go into it further, when people say support they mean traits and abilities that help boon, remove conditions, create combos, heal, or protect yourself and allies.... Rather than only spec for damage followed by more damage. If I'm just farming I'll go heavy dps, because as an engineer grenades + supply create = win everything in pve. But if I went into a dungeon with +2000 power, no toughness/vit and not using any support abilities or traits I'm going to be borderline useless with a 50 silver repair bill. gw2 is very different than other mmos in this regard but you will understand how it fits together at 80. Regardless what the masses said before release, imo the game *is different at 80 with a full traits set and exotic gear.
  • KingGatorKingGator Tampa, FLPosts: 453Member
    Originally posted by Yamota

    The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.

    Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.

    Discuss...

    Yes they have. I wasn't in beta but for a brief time so I was hoping it would prove not to be the case after leveing some, but they've done away with the trinity and replaced it with an even more simple system. On top of that it isn't a very social game which is what makes an mmorpg imo. This game had some neat intentions but it failed in execution. 

  • zevianzevian toledo, OHPosts: 401Member Uncommon

    Guild Wars 2 is overall a fun game, but i appreciate the structure the trinity provides, it gives everyone a roll to perform and get better at.   With the trinity every player at one point will feel like the hero, and those feelings produce attachment to said charcter.

     

    Good game, just lacking the structure i appreciate in a mmo.

  • DibdabsDibdabs FelvershamPosts: 2,604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yamota

    The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role.

    Ahh, the game is too subtle for you, I see.  No, the support roles are there, should people decide to spec accordingly and use them.  My Engineer can just run about like a psycho dropping gun turrets and hurling grenades or flame-throwing mobs, or if I want to I can use medical turrets, elixir gun and drop bandages and so forth, or do a bit of both.  Other classes can do either offensive or support (or a mix of the two) if they choose to.

    People not using support skills =/= the support role has been eliminated.

  • CyraelCyrael VA, USAPosts: 88Member Uncommon
    As someone who usually plays healers in most MMORPGs, I find the lack of pure support to be my biggest issue with the game so far. When it comes to group content, I find DPS to be incredibly boring. Unfortunately, if you want to be useful to your group, it seems to be either go hybrid or go home - pure support simply isn't viable.
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