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The hardcore sandbox "niche" is not very small despite what you think

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  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Uzik

    Well according to recent quotes from Smedley , he wants to start adding more "sandbox elements" to his future releases. If that's true it sounds like the OP's hunch is shared by someone with significant ability to ACT on it.  I'm also seeing alot more "sandbox" oriented games on the horizon, some of them backed by significant business entities ...for example Pathfinder Online and relationship with Paizo Publishing.... You know the PnP game company who's product is actualy beating out Wizards of the Costs D&D offering currently.

    Smedley is a poor authority to pull. He remains a one-hit-wonder unless he proves otherwise.

    And the Pathfinder Online... well taking into account that their "tech demo" wasn't a tech demo but a weird clip showing them talking about what they want to do (not even how they want to do it). I am not convinced and I don't like to be mislead.

    Sandboxes have been subpar nearly across the board. Devs make all sound fantastic but the day-to-day, play-by-play gameplay is shit. Sandboxes are synonomous to poor quality which make them appealing to even smaller audience they could potentially have.

    Investors are not interested. If I would have to put my money on some sandbox dev, I'd put my money on Zombie Labs or CCP. However, Zombie Labs' is somewhat exotic and risky being a zombie survival FPS for consoles and CCP is notorious for unfinished delivery.

    Jeff Strain, now that's a proper veteran game developer. Smedley my ass...

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • adam_noxadam_nox Member UncommonPosts: 2,148

    look up minecraft numbers.  then take it times 2 or so for how many people pirate the thing or just play the demo.

     

    some mods have practically turned it into an mmo. 

     

    it's proof that there's a wide market just waiting for a good sandbox mmo.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,855

    Here is the problem with Sandboxes. FFA PVP. Not that it, in and of itself, is a bad thing. But the way it's incorporated into MMOs is. It only serves combat orinted characters. What about the merchants? What about the crafters? They are left going WTF?

    Now, Imagine a system where you have a mercahnt who can do a "FFA PVP" attack based on the specialty of thier trade. Oh, sure you combat profs can corpse camp all day long, but then he goes and begins a hostile takeover of your stuff, and if he is able to pull off a successful market attack, can loot something from your bank. Or something along the lines where they can use their areas of expertiese to bring to bear against other players. THEN, we'd see how a real society with concequesnces players can't control in a mob rule setting pans out. 

    People would think twice about pissin off anyone at any time with a real fear of retaliation.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by adam_nox

    look up minecraft numbers.  then take it times 2 or so for how many people pirate the thing or just play the demo.

     

    some mods have practically turned it into an mmo. 

     

    it's proof that there's a wide market just waiting for a good sandbox mmo.

    Like many have already pointed out. Sandbox MMOs are far from single player sandboxes. Often the other players ruin your experience. Also, many SP sandboxes wouldn't work in a multiplayer environment.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • KasmosKasmos Member UncommonPosts: 593
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Uzik

    Gotta love the people demanding some sort of scientific study that sandbox gaming is becoming more popular.

     

    OP was expressing a feeling that he has, and there are PLENTY of recent examples that show a trend towards sandbox games.  It will probably take awhile for that to translate into a successful MMO title, but everyone here acting like every themepark game since WoW was a huge success needs to stop being so blind.

    Yeah well feelings are not good enough. You don't get funding based on a hunch. State those examples. Let us scrutinize them. OP already showed error in his reasoning.

    My reasoning is based on the amount of people who have tried games like Darkfall and EVE, as well my experiences throughout my 23 years of gaming.

    The whole point is that people assume that there is a very small "niche" of sandbox players when that simply is not true. Sure, you can argue it is much smaller than the themepark niche, but I was never trying to argue that. If you want to argue "small" in terms of comparing subscription numbers of WoW, no one can argue that. There is a lot more people that like their hand held and "easy-mode" compared to sandbox games, but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of us out there (which there are) that are waiting for the sandbox genre to re-emerge, and luckily for us, it has started too.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Kasmos
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    My reasoning is based on the amount of people who have tried games like Darkfall and EVE, as well my experiences throughout my 23 years of gaming.

    The whole point is that people assume that there is a very small "niche" of sandbox players when that simply is not true. Sure, you can argue it is much smaller than the themepark niche, but I was never trying to argue that. If you want to argue "small" in terms of comparing subscription numbers of WoW, no one can argue that. There is a lot more people that like their hand held and "easy-mode" compared to sandbox games, but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of us out there (which there are) that are waiting for the sandbox genre to re-emerge, and luckily for us, it has started too.

    Why did you feel you needed to use those terms? This shit takes all the credibility from your post. You just showed your hand! You slip something like that, "WoW clone", "instant gratification", "console generation" or anything similar and no one takes you seriously.

    What a joke this is...

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    Originally posted by adam_nox

    look up minecraft numbers.  then take it times 2 or so for how many people pirate the thing or just play the demo.

     

    some mods have practically turned it into an mmo. 

     

    it's proof that there's a wide market just waiting for a good sandbox mmo.

    Well, no, that's just proof that there are x amount of people who are willing to play a game where you can create things using a certain set of parameters. So it's sort of like that "game/toy" thing I was sayin. If anything,  the SIMS proved that there was a market for such things and that minecraft falls into that novelty toy/game experience.

    This has nothing to do with whether or not a player is willing to be plunked down into a world only to receive a message like "well, there is a trading house on the left and be careful who you talk to. Good Luck"!

     

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    Originally posted by Kasmos
     
     There is a lot more people that like their hand held and "easy-mode" compared to sandbox games, but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of us out there (which there are) that are waiting for the sandbox genre to re-emerge, and luckily for us, it has started too.

    I think it's wrong to say that people who don't want an open game play experience are looking for  "hand held/easymode" as opposed to  intelligent yet guided challenge.

    I imagine one could make a game where each step of the way was a "step of the way" but where one had to use knowledge and imagination on difficult puzzles that were set before them.

    One could also have players wandering around as they like and stacking blocks and not much more than that.

    Challenge and intelligent game design where the player is required to think in order to progress has nothing to do with "sandbox".

    I haven't played the game but I imagine a game like portal might fall into this category.

    Just because someone doesnt' want to be plunked down without info (or some such thing) and they have to figure out how to make a hammer before they can continue, doesn't mean that they don't want challenge and intelligent game play.

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • KasmosKasmos Member UncommonPosts: 593
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Kasmos
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    My reasoning is based on the amount of people who have tried games like Darkfall and EVE, as well my experiences throughout my 23 years of gaming.

    The whole point is that people assume that there is a very small "niche" of sandbox players when that simply is not true. Sure, you can argue it is much smaller than the themepark niche, but I was never trying to argue that. If you want to argue "small" in terms of comparing subscription numbers of WoW, no one can argue that. There is a lot more people that like their hand held and "easy-mode" compared to sandbox games, but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of us out there (which there are) that are waiting for the sandbox genre to re-emerge, and luckily for us, it has started too.

    Why did you feel you needed to use those terms? This shit takes all the credibility from your post. You just showed your hand! You slip something like that, "WoW clone", "instant gratification", "console generation" or anything similar and no one takes you seriously.

    What a joke this is...

    You didn't even argue my point. There IS a lot more people that like their hand-held and "easy-mode" games which is what most themeparks tend to be. That's not saying that all themepark MMO players have this mentality, just that a lot do.

    Sandbox games don't hold your hand like the majority of themepark MMOs do, and they certainly are not easy-mode like the majority of themepark MMOs rae.

    Why do I know this? Because I grew up playing MUDDs and the original MMOs, and I was at World of Warcraft's launch. I LOVED the game until they released Battlegrounds, killed open-world PvP, and started "dumbing" down the game.

    And guess what? The population EXPLODED. Hell, my 64 year old aunt plays World of Warcraft, and no, that is not a joke.

    So again, my point still stands: There are much more people that enjoy having their hand-held (themepark) and "easy-mode"/"instant gratification"/whatever you want to call it kind of games compared to true sandbox games.

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Felheart5
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Each one of these games has a specific audience and in the case of the former it isn't clear that everyone is signed up for the "open ended" experience.

     

    I know it's not quite comparable, but how about the The Sims series of games, arguably one of the bigger game IP's out there although it's golden days may have passed(?). Entierly open ended sandbox gaming experience. ;)

    That's a very good point.

    I might posit that the SIMS, though very much a sandbox experience is also a toy.

    It allowed people to manipulate and (to use a word that is a bit precious) "delight" in day to day minutiae. It was their own little creation, sort of like a mini-bonsai tree or rock garden. But the thing with the sims is that it wasn't just a "you do everything" experience as you would set things up and watch what happened. Kind of like a complicated Top that you wound up with your own input and watched as it did its thing.

    Bring it to the online space and suddenly no one had interest.

    The thing about a "sandbox" game is that it mixes the desire to create for one's self with a social gaming experience. Is there really a strong crossover or is it more of a small area in a Venn diagram?

     

    You bring up a good point.  I personally think that building something others can see and appreciate is more powerful than something only you can see and appreciate.  I think this of Minecraft as well because if you are proud of something you've done, why would you not want to show others? Of course in an online world the boundries you have to work with will be smaller, a lot smaller, but still attractive to that playerbase.  In addition you gain other players to interact with and a whole world of "dragons and ogres".  I'm trying to look at this from a social gamer standpoint image.

     

    'The SIMS Online' specifically didn't do well but I'm not sure that was due to the nature of the game or the format and time at which it was released (2002).  More recent iterations of SIMS in an online space have done a lot better from what I hear and there are a list of other social online games that boast a lot of players.

     

    WoW became the success it did because it found new blood.  The plethora of AAA MMOs to play right now has deluted us to similar levels as 2002/2003 on a per game basis (minus WoW of course hehe).  I think the "new blood" for MMORPGs coming out in the next five years will be current social gamers.  I think that aspects of social games, including sandboxy features like building things, open classes/crafting professions and player interaction will be integrating with what we'd see seperately as an MMORPG.  The good part about the genre up until now is that it has been heavely focused on combat and that will carry over.  In the end I think the melding of these things will be closer to what someone would consider an online roleplaying world.  2cp

     

    Side note: I seen that the OP included "Hardcore" in the title.  None of my comments thus far has been with this in mind.  Of course, I always read the whole title...

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Member Posts: 1,832
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Uzik

    Well according to recent quotes from Smedley , he wants to start adding more "sandbox elements" to his future releases. If that's true it sounds like the OP's hunch is shared by someone with significant ability to ACT on it.  I'm also seeing alot more "sandbox" oriented games on the horizon, some of them backed by significant business entities ...for example Pathfinder Online and relationship with Paizo Publishing.... You know the PnP game company who's product is actualy beating out Wizards of the Costs D&D offering currently.

    Smedley is a poor authority to pull. He remains a one-hit-wonder unless he proves otherwise.

    And the Pathfinder Online... well taking into account that their "tech demo" wasn't a tech demo but a weird clip showing them talking about what they want to do (not even how they want to do it). I am not convinced and I don't like to be mislead.

    Sandboxes have been subpar nearly across the board. Devs make all sound fantastic but the day-to-day, play-by-play gameplay is shit. Sandboxes are synonomous to poor quality which make them appealing to even smaller audience they could potentially have.

    Investors are not interested. If I would have to put my money on some sandbox dev, I'd put my money on Zombie Labs or CCP. However, Zombie Labs' is somewhat exotic and risky being a zombie survival FPS for consoles and CCP is notorious for unfinished delivery.

    Jeff Strain, now that's a proper veteran game developer. Smedley my ass...

    Bit of misinformation there on PFO. The Kickstarter project was for the CREATION of the Tech Demo...so it'd be kind weird (and decptive) if they had that demo already built before opening up the Kickstarter for it, wouldn't it?

    As far as the other stuff....whether Smedley is a good developer or not is beside the point...fact is he heads up a major Developer so actualy has the ability to ACT on his opinions...rather then you or I.

    On the other hand, some people just feel the need to label preferences that don't match thier own as only of interest to a tiny minority out of some sort of anxiety that there will be less opportunity to play games that do match thier preferences. I think that's well in evidence here.

     

     

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Member Posts: 1,832
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

    @Sovrath,  the point I was getting is that your arguement that it's difficult to look at the "sandbox/themepark" factor in isolation, which you very aptly make, cuts both ways...

    It means that the OP doesn't have reliable data to support his assertion that it's "not very small".

    But by the same token...

    Those who have made assertions that IS very small also don't have reliable data to base thier assertions on.

    The only thing that one can reliably contend when one doesn't have a way to isolate the data so that it can accurately be measured is that it's size is UNKOWN.

     

     

     

     

    Except the OP did not point out any data at all, reliable or not, that shows any indication that the sandbox crowd is large. He just stated that it isn't small.

    The people who are saying it is small can at least point to the several dozen sandboxes that are out right now of which only 2 has ever broken 300,000 subscribers and use that as credence to their claim.  Now the reliability or credibility of this is still open to debate however the OP did not present anything. 

    edit - I actually think sandboxes can do better subscriber/player wise than the currently are and it will take a bigger budget game to make that happen.  I myself, even if I had the money, just couldn't justify spending 50 million to make it without more data. 

    Well the simple fact that there ARE 2 games that have broken that 300K subscriber mark means that a "sandbox" game IS capable of attracting a decent sized audience. Q.E.D.

    Now we don't know how many people are interested in EvE, for example, specificaly because of it's "sandbox" factor as opposed to inspite of it but it's "sandbox" factor hasn't prevented it from consistantly ranking within the Top 5 subscription games in the West, ahead of many themepark competitors that have been built on much higher budgets.

    As Sovrath has aptly pointed out...any game is composed of a multitude of different factors....and it's quite hard to attribute it's success or failure to a single factor in isolation. For example of the several dozen sandboxes that have marginal audiences, how many had substantial budgets? How many themeparks produced with marginal budgets have faired well by comparison?  Does that show that "sandbox" games struggle...or does that show that "low budget" games struggle?

    Did something like "Mortal Online" (picking on one for a moment) struggle because it  was a "sandbox" or because it was poorly designed and poorly funded?

     

    If the MMO market wasn't saturated with offerings right now, I'd pretty much agree with you. The "safe bet" would be to go with conventional wisdom and try to stick close to a formula that has worked with just a little bit of interesting variation. Thing is, with the market as crowded with competition as it is right now, the "safe bet" is no longer a safe bet. If a game wants a chance at doing well in todays market, it's going to have to find a way to appeal to audiences who aren't being well satisfied by the current offerings. That involves a certain amount of risk....but unless a company wants to take it's money out of MMO's completely and start making dog collars...I don't see the logic in doing anything else. I think that's why you see so many Developers starting to try different things....and why you even got people like Smedley talking about "sandboxes"....because he needs to find a way to give people something that they aren't already getting somewhere else.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
    Originally posted by Quirhid
     

    Bit of misinformation there on PFO. The Kickstarter project was for the CREATION of the Tech Demo...so it'd be kind weird (and decptive) if they had that demo already built before opening up the Kickstarter for it, wouldn't it?

    As far as the other stuff....whether Smedley is a good developer or not is beside the point...fact is he heads up a major Developer so actualy has the ability to ACT on his opinions...rather then you or I.

    On the other hand, some people just feel the need to label preferences that don't match thier own as only of interest to a tiny minority out of some sort of anxiety that there will be less opportunity to play games that do match thier preferences. I think that's well in evidence here.

    I play plenty of sandboxes outside MMOs, but like I said, the sandbox MMO front is very feeble.

    Look at Eve, not a single serious competitor in all of its history. At this point sandbox developers need only to release and they get their share of the market. In the themepark side you have to compete with quality (somewhat) to get a piece of the pie.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • Angier2758Angier2758 Member UncommonPosts: 1,026

    The hardcore sandbox crowd is tiny and mostly full of griefers.  Seems like they think anything short of FFA full loot pvp while hop circle straffing is a themepark.

    Most of us like some interesting slower pvp not quake with swords.

    That and all the sandbox offerings out currently just blow.

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