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PVP and PVE in MMOs, yay or nay.

AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member

I'm asking the question because we have seen time and time again that games that feature both PVE and PVP rarely do both right. 

It seems that whenever a MMORPG tries to do both, it ends up neglecting one or the other, which is unsurprising as the two stand in a somewhat oposite place (one is directly competitive with other players while the other is cooperative).

Thats not to say that cooperative-competitition doesn't exist (for example high level competitition in raiding), but its not the same competition that dominating other players directly ingame is.

Now i enjoy both PVP and PVE, but rarely do I enjoy it in the same game.

Do you think the remedy would be to create separate, more niche games instead of trying to be everything for everyone?

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Comments

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

    EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by coretex666

    I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

    EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

    Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

    PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

    image
  • exdeathbrexdeathbr colatinaPosts: 137Member Common
    Originally posted by AdamTM

    Do you think the remedy would be to create separate, more niche games instead of trying to be everything for everyone?

    YES, YES, YES, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Imagine someone is creating a book, he was what you and your 3 friends what you want in a book and then create a book for you and those friends. Now imagine he do the same thing but asking 10000 guys what book you think will be better. The first one obviously. I am not saying you wont like the second one but the first one will be better.

    Niche games is the future, and I am not talking only about niche games only to hardcore comunity, but to the carebear one, to the normal gamers one, to casual ones.....

  • Mike-McQueenMike-McQueen Enfield, CTPosts: 243Member
    Both are great when done right. That said I'm still waiting for someone to get it right.

    I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by coretex666

    I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

    EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

    Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

    PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

    Why do you think so? I do not claim you are wrong. I just play WoW on regular basis and I do not feel that PVE is so overwhelming.

    You have some dungeons, raids, quests on the PVE side and BGs, arena (2v2, 3v3, 5v5), rated BGs, OWPvP, battles (e.g. Tol Barad) on the other side.

    You have different type of gear for each activity. You have different spec for each activity (not necessarily, but you do have abilities/talents that have more utilization in PVE or PvP).

    When you decide to do PvP, you have similar queues, so that it is not more time consuming to get involved in PvP.

    You have achievements for both, PVE and PvP.

    You have PVE and PvP servers.

    I am just wondering what makes you think that PvP takes a back-seat.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,281Member Uncommon
    Both if you want to play in a virtual world,, andnot some hodge podge of parts glued together. Leaving one out is even worse.
  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon

    Role based PvE based play for me in the long run.

    I don't need PvP polluting my MMORPG... If I want to enjoy that I go to a FPS game that does it well and is actual fun.

     

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by coretex666

    I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

    EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

    Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

    PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

    Why do you think so? I do not claim you are wrong. I just play WoW on regular basis and I do not feel that PVE is so overwhelming.

    You have some dungeons, raids, quests on the PVE side and BGs, arena (2v2, 3v3, 5v5), rated BGs, OWPvP, battles (e.g. Tol Barad) on the other side.

    You have different type of gear for each activity. You have different spec for each activity (not necessarily, but you do have abilities/talents that have more utilization in PVE or PvP).

    When you decide to do PvP, you have similar queues, so that it is not more time consuming to get involved in PvP.

    You have achievements for both, PVE and PvP.

    You have PVE and PvP servers.

    I am just wondering what makes you think that PvP takes a back-seat.

    The whole game is balanced/designed around PVE.

    To do PVP you have to do PVE first (PVP doesn't give progression)

    Talents/abilities are PVE centred and the Frost Mage is the single most persuasive argument for it.

    Blizz tried to mitigate the problems with dual-specs and the new talent trees but it still worked out the same way it was before, a frostmage in a raid is mostly not useful, unless you need a lot of trash AOE-CC. 

    Then they tried to mitigate that by designing encounters/ballance with their new mantra "bring the player not the class" so they homogenized most classes.

    Every time blizzard does something to PVE ballance it fucks their PVP ballance and vice versa.

    etc.

    How long have you been playing WoW?

    image
  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Both if you want to play in a virtual world,, andnot some hodge podge of parts glued together. Leaving one out is even worse.

    A virtual world can have rules that do not encompass PVP or PVE.

    image
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon

    Are there many that offer only one of the two?

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • rivetman13rivetman13 mascoutah, ILPosts: 34Member

    just take PVP out. Most people who really want PVP are just gank clowns. I like the member who said when they wanna PVP they just go to a FPS where it is done right and fun.

    PVP is difficult to do fairly in any MMO where there is progression. PVP servers are flat out lame in my opinion and just a constant looking over your shoulder for the guy 50 levels above you gankfesk. I'll pass.

    My 12 yr old nephew PVPs in WoW, it's a joke. You can be a pvp guru or a complete n00b and if your team can somehow pull it off, you get the win. Youtube + wowcrendor for a funny take on how silly it can get. Little to no skill is involved in PVP, but, I guess thats kinda how its supposed to be, cant make it even, fair fights, it would make the gankers get ganked.

     

    Happily the PVP crowd is a minority in MMOs

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member

    I went with both. I love PvP and like PvE. What I would like to see is more PvP centered around the world instead of becoming a seperate game in instanced BG's/Warzones/Arena etc. Something like L2 did with there world bosses/flagging system. 

    A full blown criminal system for reds like myself would be nice, give us the risk/reward for being red again like in some of the older games. Hopefully ArcheAge can deliver on this, if they can ever friggin deliver the game to the west. 

    And what the guy above me said about PvP being a minority is a very stupid comment. Its actually about 50/50. If it came down to choice between the two there would be a lot of people like myself that would of strictly chose PvP. But most PvPers enjoy a little bit of PvE as well which is why we play MMO's instead of MOBA's. And since MOBA's are more popular than MMO's I would go on to assume that PvPers are actually more then PVEers. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Are there many that offer only one of the two?

     

     

    There are a few but usually experimental games with either low production values or major flaws in other areas.

    For example DDO had no PVP at all up untill Module 3.

    image
  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Both IMO as long as you don't differentiate between the two in development. There shouldn't be specific gear or abilities that pertain only to one or the other. It comes down to up front design.

    The other part is The world created for it. Themepark tailor fit worlds have a hard time having both unless it's one rule set or another because every square inch is needed for progression. If you create a world that is spread out, like VG for instance, you can have regions and warfronts between factions that PvPers are drawn to and an equal amount of strictly PvE (with flagging) regions both offering the same amount of content progression, OW bosses, dungeons, etc.

    In most games PvP has been tacked on to what seems to be PvE centered games. Is hard to host both? Maybe but not impossible if to design the world for it.
  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member

    i think you need mostly pve with a touch of integrated pvp.

    reds, gankers and asshats need to be utilized not segregated. They are, by their very nature, dynamic content.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    You can have both right in the same game. Daoc and gw2 spring immediately to mind.

    Wow most certainly doesn't, wow is a raid grinder with tacked on half arsed pvp.
  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Rungard

    I see what you're saying but if you look at gankers as criminals, PvEers as victims and regular PvPers (using gankers as dynamic content) as police you still have a victim first. Better to put all the criminals in the same space as all the police :)
  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by coretex666

    I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

    EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

    Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

    PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

    Why do you think so? I do not claim you are wrong. I just play WoW on regular basis and I do not feel that PVE is so overwhelming.

    You have some dungeons, raids, quests on the PVE side and BGs, arena (2v2, 3v3, 5v5), rated BGs, OWPvP, battles (e.g. Tol Barad) on the other side.

    You have different type of gear for each activity. You have different spec for each activity (not necessarily, but you do have abilities/talents that have more utilization in PVE or PvP).

    When you decide to do PvP, you have similar queues, so that it is not more time consuming to get involved in PvP.

    You have achievements for both, PVE and PvP.

    You have PVE and PvP servers.

    I am just wondering what makes you think that PvP takes a back-seat.

    The whole game is balanced/designed around PVE.

    To do PVP you have to do PVE first (PVP doesn't give progression)

    Talents/abilities are PVE centred and the Frost Mage is the single most persuasive argument for it.

    Blizz tried to mitigate the problems with dual-specs and the new talent trees but it still worked out the same way it was before, a frostmage in a raid is mostly not useful, unless you need a lot of trash AOE-CC. 

    Then they tried to mitigate that by designing encounters/ballance with their new mantra "bring the player not the class" so they homogenized most classes.

    Every time blizzard does something to PVE ballance it fucks their PVP ballance and vice versa.

    etc.

    How long have you been playing WoW?

    Since day 1 :D

    Why would you have to do PVE first? You get exp for doing PVP, you get currency to purchase PVP gear from PVP. All you need to do is to get first several levels, so that you can PVP. Since like level 10, you can progress all the way to max level and max PVP gear solely by doing PVP.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,925Member Uncommon

    I prefer PvE but I like PvP mixed in. It makes things more fun. Then again, I'm also the type that enjoys putting gankers in their place which I tend to have lots of laughs doing in many games.

     

    Straight PvE just eventually gets boring and its fun to have a bit of conflict, though I will say I am completely against Free PvP where its everyman for itself. Its a breeding ground for griefing and absolutely nothing good.

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Rungard

    I see what you're saying but if you look at gankers as criminals, PvEers as victims and regular PvPers (using gankers as dynamic content) as police you still have a victim first. Better to put all the criminals in the same space as all the police :)

     so in a game where there are approximately 25 pver's (which includes the pvp policers/blues) and 1 or so Reds/Gankers, how often do you feel you would be victimized if you had tools to prevent it? Not very often i would imagine. They would have a very difficult time getting close to new players, they would be vastly outnumbered, and hunted.  You would know they are out there, they could attack at anytime, but the probababilities would be slim. 

    and what value would you then put on these types of players if their purpose was nurtured instead of scorned, by allowing them ( with competition among themselfves for who gets to do this) to activate npc content, i.e seiging your castle, invading your mine, blowing up your bridge etc.

    it would no longer be the role of victim and greifer. Every advantage would be stacked against the hardcore, which s the way it should be. They would be content providers.

    why waste a perfectly useful resource? Everything has its place if used properly.

    give me 50 million and ill show you..lol

     

  • RednecksithRednecksith Madison heights, MIPosts: 1,238Member

    I'm still waiting for a PvE focused sandbox myself. I love the concept of skill-based games, but every current offering is FFA full loot PvP.

    Sorry, but I want to mine / farm / lumberjack / craft / etc. without worrying about some asshat with GM in 'stabby-stabby skill' julienning my liver and taking all my hard-earned stuff for shits and giggles.

  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by AdamTM
    Originally posted by coretex666

    I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

    EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

    Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

    PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

    Why do you think so? I do not claim you are wrong. I just play WoW on regular basis and I do not feel that PVE is so overwhelming.

    You have some dungeons, raids, quests on the PVE side and BGs, arena (2v2, 3v3, 5v5), rated BGs, OWPvP, battles (e.g. Tol Barad) on the other side.

    You have different type of gear for each activity. You have different spec for each activity (not necessarily, but you do have abilities/talents that have more utilization in PVE or PvP).

    When you decide to do PvP, you have similar queues, so that it is not more time consuming to get involved in PvP.

    You have achievements for both, PVE and PvP.

    You have PVE and PvP servers.

    I am just wondering what makes you think that PvP takes a back-seat.

    The whole game is balanced/designed around PVE.

    To do PVP you have to do PVE first (PVP doesn't give progression)

    Talents/abilities are PVE centred and the Frost Mage is the single most persuasive argument for it.

    Blizz tried to mitigate the problems with dual-specs and the new talent trees but it still worked out the same way it was before, a frostmage in a raid is mostly not useful, unless you need a lot of trash AOE-CC. 

    Then they tried to mitigate that by designing encounters/ballance with their new mantra "bring the player not the class" so they homogenized most classes.

    Every time blizzard does something to PVE ballance it fucks their PVP ballance and vice versa.

    etc.

    How long have you been playing WoW?

    Since day 1 :D

    Why would you have to do PVE first? You get exp for doing PVP, you get currency to purchase PVP gear from PVP. All you need to do is to get first several levels, so that you can PVP. Since like level 10, you can progress all the way to max level and max PVP gear solely by doing PVP.

    You can also get to max level by doing only crafting, its still not Minecraft or crafting-focused.

    The question is how does PVP tie into the game? It doesnt.

    The PVP is segregated away, its separate, might as well be another game entirely.

    I think its why Bloodline Champions and now Forge exist.

    image
  • tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,208Member Uncommon
    How WoW did it in 2005 before Battlegrounds was the best, just mixing PVP and PVE in an open seamless world.
  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
  • AdamTMAdamTM Frankfurt Am MainPosts: 1,376Member
    Originally posted by rungard
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Rungard

    I see what you're saying but if you look at gankers as criminals, PvEers as victims and regular PvPers (using gankers as dynamic content) as police you still have a victim first. Better to put all the criminals in the same space as all the police :)

     so in a game where there are approximately 25 pver's (which includes the pvp policers/blues) and 1 or so Reds/Gankers, how often do you feel you would be victimized if you had tools to prevent it? Not very often i would imagine. They would have a very difficult time getting close to new players, they would be vastly outnumbered, and hunted.  You would know they are out there, they could attack at anytime, but the probababilities would be slim. 

    and what value would you then put on these types of players if their purpose was nurtured instead of scorned, by allowing them ( with competition among themselfves for who gets to do this) to activate npc content, i.e seiging your castle, invading your mine, blowing up your bridge etc.

    it would no longer be the role of victim and greifer. Every advantage would be stacked against the hardcore, which s the way it should be. They would be content providers.

    why waste a perfectly useful resource? Everything has its place if used properly.

    give me 50 million and ill show you..lol

     

    Afaik Voyage Century has just about everything you listed.

    image
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