I wouldn't call it measley 15$, if you actually calculate how MUCH money you put in to a single game with that type of payment... (2 years sub = 360$ + expansions). Most people aren't willing to pay that much for a single game.
Look at GW2 for example, they are shooting out new content monthly for a B2P type game.
I dont think gw2 is a good example of a good service tbh, their CS has been....well....lacking, they have had security issues that took months to sort out, gamebreaking bugs that still happen, queu issues with pvp, epidemic of hackers/botters etc
They kind of prove the old adage that you get what you pay for tbh as ive never seen near to as many problems in a sub game, the only possible exception being AoC, which is one of the fastest sinking stones the genre has seen.
People think GW2 gets bashed now imagine how much it would have been bashed if you had to pay monthly for it.
Anyway voted no as I've had better experience with subscription mmo's than i have with f2p/b2p
Exactly this, if GW2 is going to be touted as a successful B2P MMO, then i'm sorry B2P has failed. Game breaking bugs, botters, imbalanced pvp, dimishing returns on everything, insanely priced items for no reason, broken dungeons, these are not what I wanted to buy for my $60. This is aside from the customer service, cash shop and even TP issues.
A post I read somewhere I wish I could copy paste expressed my sentiments exactly. Guild Wars 2 is a MMO for the masses who fail so badly at the endgame of other MMO's they don't want to even try anymore. So if you don't have the time, patience, or dedication to play a real MMO then GW2 is perfect for you.
TLDR; B2P in the form of GW2 sucks. Subs still win.
I wouldn't call it measley 15$, if you actually calculate how MUCH money you put in to a single game with that type of payment... (2 years sub = 360$ + expansions). Most people aren't willing to pay that much for a single game.
Look at GW2 for example, they are shooting out new content monthly for a B2P type game.
I dont think gw2 is a good example of a good service tbh, their CS has been....well....lacking, they have had security issues that took months to sort out, gamebreaking bugs that still happen, queu issues with pvp, epidemic of hackers/botters etc
They kind of prove the old adage that you get what you pay for tbh as ive never seen near to as many problems in a sub game, the only possible exception being AoC, which is one of the fastest sinking stones the genre has seen.
People think GW2 gets bashed now imagine how much it would have been bashed if you had to pay monthly for it.
Anyway voted no as I've had better experience with subscription mmo's than i have with f2p/b2p
Exactly this, if GW2 is going to be touted as a successful B2P MMO, then i'm sorry B2P has failed. Game breaking bugs, botters, imbalanced pvp, dimishing returns on everything, insanely priced items for no reason, broken dungeons, these are not what I wanted to buy for my $60. This is aside from the customer service, cash shop and even TP issues.
A post I read somewhere I wish I could copy paste expressed my sentiments exactly. Guild Wars 2 is a MMO for the masses who fail so badly at the endgame of other MMO's they don't want to even try anymore. So if you don't have the time, patience, or dedication to play a real MMO then GW2 is perfect for you.
TLDR; B2P in the form of GW2 sucks. Subs still win.
Sums up my feelings pretty well.
@1vald2 - $15 really is measly when you put it into perspective, I can spend $20 going to a restaurant to eat and that is one hour worth of enjoyment, I can play some sub-MMOs for 6-8 hours a day for a whole month for $15, when we do the math $20 for an hour of entertainment at a restaurant or $0.08 for an hour of enterainment in my favorite MMOs.
Not to mention some sub-based MMOs have things like Plex or Chronoscrolls, using in-game gold to buy your subscription. Currently have enough gold to buy a half year of subcription in TERA and I already bought until February on top of that.
I don't know what it takes to make a successful mmo, but I feel I got my money's worth out of gw2. I can't say that about that most of the sub mmo's I've played.
Should Elder Scroll be BtP? I have no idea, but based on how often I've felt like I was burnt by sub mmo's in the past, it would have to be one heck of a great game for me to cough up the money again for any long term investment of my time.
If I was going to make an mmo, I'd wouldn't make it sub based. It would seem like to much of a risk.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Exactly this, if GW2 is going to be touted as a successful B2P MMO, then i'm sorry B2P has failed. Game breaking bugs, botters, imbalanced pvp, dimishing returns on everything, insanely priced items for no reason, broken dungeons, these are not what I wanted to buy for my $60. This is aside from the customer service, cash shop and even TP issues.
A post I read somewhere I wish I could copy paste expressed my sentiments exactly. Guild Wars 2 is a MMO for the masses who fail so badly at the endgame of other MMO's they don't want to even try anymore. So if you don't have the time, patience, or dedication to play a real MMO then GW2 is perfect for you.
TLDR; B2P in the form of GW2 sucks. Subs still win.
Sums up my feelings pretty well.
Yeah not like all those bug free p2p launches. Which one of those are we going to lie about now?
I'm not going to lie about any of them. This thread is about GW2 and B2P, the supposed holy messiah of MMO's come to save us from P2P bogeyman. Only problem is.... IN MY OPINION, GW2's launch and subsequent service have been worse than the majority of P2P games.
The onus is on GW2 to prove the B2P is/was superior, which it has failed to do.
Exactly this, if GW2 is going to be touted as a successful B2P MMO, then i'm sorry B2P has failed. Game breaking bugs, botters, imbalanced pvp, dimishing returns on everything, insanely priced items for no reason, broken dungeons, these are not what I wanted to buy for my $60. This is aside from the customer service, cash shop and even TP issues.
A post I read somewhere I wish I could copy paste expressed my sentiments exactly. Guild Wars 2 is a MMO for the masses who fail so badly at the endgame of other MMO's they don't want to even try anymore. So if you don't have the time, patience, or dedication to play a real MMO then GW2 is perfect for you.
TLDR; B2P in the form of GW2 sucks. Subs still win.
Sums up my feelings pretty well.
Yeah not like all those bug free p2p launches. Which one of those are we going to lie about now?
No one is saying p2p games are bug free at launch, but in my experience the problems they have get fixed quicker or at the very least show signs of getting better
Last time i logged into gw2 (about a month ago) around 50% of the events in the 2 level 40 areas i was trying to level in werent working and hadnt been for over a week and the hackers/botters I had reported week one were still playing the game
So I guess your prepared for the almost inevitable free to play conversion within a year or two and the cash shop that goes with it then ? Very few modern games can charge a sub and have any kind of success .
Very few modern games can charge a sub and have success when they are based solely upon content and not game mechanics/systems that engage players longer than developer created content.
When you solely have developer created content, players chew through it and then go looking for more and usually have to wait.
If these games start putting in systems that engage players becauuse of their very nature such as nation building, trade, economy, housing, horizontal and vertical progression, then players will want to stick around longer.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
No hacks/bots in Tera? Who are you trying to kid. lol. Really no hacks/bots ever in WoW?
Gw2 is working on the hacks/bots and it is getting better (not that I ever found it to be that bad). Anyone who actually plays the game knows that. They did make the mistake of underesimating how many dicks are out in the world.
No hacks/bots in Tera? Who are you trying to kid. lol. Really no hacks/bots ever in WoW?
Gw2 is working on the hacks/bots and it is getting better (not that I ever found it to be that bad). Anyone who actually plays the game knows that. They did make the mistake of underesimating how many dicks are out in the world.
Did I say ever? No I didn't, but what you wont ever see is bot trains in TERA or WoW or people hacking a game mechanic on a daily basis using fly/wall and no clipping hacks(orbs in WvW).
Also, I did play GW2 religiously for a month, I have 498 hours played across all characters and that's why I know that, not because I don't play, because I do play.
Should be sub based without a cash shop, but with a service's store via the account or website for name changes, etc...
I want to play this game, I want to have access to everything the game has to offer, and I want the developers to have all the money they need to provide constant content releases and long term support for this game.
However,
It would be smart for the devs to have a contingency plan for the game that way if the initial sub based model fails they will have something to implement with a moments notice.
I want this game to be that awesome mmorpg that I will want to pay monthly for.
So I guess your prepared for the almost inevitable free to play conversion within a year or two and the cash shop that goes with it then ? Very few modern games can charge a sub and have any kind of success .
Except that very few modern games could continually update enough content or included enough emergent content to keep enough players playing.
The issue is not a subscription. If people are willing to go to the movies and pay extra for 3d glasses for a novel experience that doesn't really add too much to the movie but still think it's worth it then they will have no problem paying a measley $15 per month for a game that they think is worth it.
Subscriptions start being an issue when it's not clear what you are getting for your money.
So to answer your initial question "that depends on whether or not they can supply a game that players think is worth a subscription.
I wouldn't call it measley 15$, if you actually calculate how MUCH money you put in to a single game with that type of payment... (2 years sub = 360$ + expansions). Most people aren't willing to pay that much for a single game.
Look at GW2 for example, they are shooting out new content monthly for a B2P type game.
Well, break it down into how many hours that one plays these games.
I purchased Dishonored for $60 and according to my steam account I have twenty hours in the game. I did one play through. I am in the process of one more play through. so let's say that's another twenty hours. So $60 for a good 40 hours playthrough and then I'm probably done with it.
Now how many hours did I put into my 4.5 years of lineage 2 or my LOTRO account?
If the game is good and has systems and content to keep me playing then "yes" I consider that $15 per month as measley.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
AoC and FFXIV had horrible launches and long fix times. SWG. WoW and RIFT both have had long standing design flaws that required complete class and combat mechanic rewrites at various points. Two years later Trion has to rewrite class mechanics to fix things they haven't been able to via balancing and that's fast? I don't think so pivotelite. Those who live in glass houses, throwing stones, and all that.
I don't seen ANet working any less hard than Trion at this point. We'll see what a year or two down the line hold for both.
Theres a difference between class balance issues (which btw never get fully fixed...ever) and progression blocking bugs, and "i win" pvp hacks.
Your comparing 2 of the biggest fails in sub based mmo's with the most succesful b2p/f2p mmo. So because the biggest failures are as bad as the biggest success for a b2p mmo, that means b2p is a success?
By saying that the 2 biggest failures when it comes to sub based mmo's have long fix times the same as gw2, you are kinda proving our point
if it's good enough it'll make it, if it's not, who cares what model it adopts, it's a bad game.
MMOs will sooner or later need to stop competing in terms of "we're cheap and accessible" like EA is doing, and try the "we're good and long-term fun" like they once were.
Actually many players that left SWTOR and TSW said that they'd paly it if it was F2P/B2P but they are not paying a sub.
If the MMO is good enough then sure I'l pay a sub but the reality of the matter is that no game warrents a sub. EVE is an exception as one can find alternatives to a sub and they have free expansions along with endless content as it's player driven. Themepark MMOs there is none that warrents a sub as everything is scripted and in a month or two time one has already seen all the content.
Originally posted by OG_Zorvan I think it should be scrapped and Zenimax should apologize for letting a collective brainfart actually make it into the development phase.
NO WAY!!!! Sub based attracts a way way way better crowd, on top of that, in the wake of guild wars 2? i mean seriously. Not to be the bearer of bad news or anything but lets hope that TESO is NOTHING like that rediculously boring game known as guild wars 2.
if it's good enough it'll make it, if it's not, who cares what model it adopts, it's a bad game.
MMOs will sooner or later need to stop competing in terms of "we're cheap and accessible" like EA is doing, and try the "we're good and long-term fun" like they once were.
Actually many players that left SWTOR and TSW said that they'd paly it if it was F2P/B2P but they are not paying a sub.
If the MMO is good enough then sure I'l pay a sub but the reality of the matter is that no game warrents a sub. EVE is an exception as one can find alternatives to a sub and they have free expansions along with endless content as it's player driven. Themepark MMOs there is none that warrents a sub as everything is scripted and in a month or two time one has already seen all the content.
I prefer a B2P model personally like GW2.
MMO guys always said they will go back to Game X if they go F2P, but truth if only handful of them really go back to the game, and even less portion of them remain in the game.
I hope this game is FUN enough to be sub base, 15 bucks per month for hourssss of entertainment like MMO is completely fine for me, as long as it delivers.
Pfft! Subs are dead. Long live the pay-for-chest-keys-so-you-can-become-a-bear model!
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
Exactly this, if GW2 is going to be touted as a successful B2P MMO, then i'm sorry B2P has failed. Game breaking bugs, botters, imbalanced pvp, dimishing returns on everything, insanely priced items for no reason, broken dungeons, these are not what I wanted to buy for my $60. This is aside from the customer service, cash shop and even TP issues.
A post I read somewhere I wish I could copy paste expressed my sentiments exactly. Guild Wars 2 is a MMO for the masses who fail so badly at the endgame of other MMO's they don't want to even try anymore. So if you don't have the time, patience, or dedication to play a real MMO then GW2 is perfect for you.
TLDR; B2P in the form of GW2 sucks. Subs still win.
Sums up my feelings pretty well.
@1vald2 - $15 really is measly when you put it into perspective, I can spend $20 going to a restaurant to eat and that is one hour worth of enjoyment, I can play some sub-MMOs for 6-8 hours a day for a whole month for $15, when we do the math $20 for an hour of entertainment at a restaurant or $0.08 for an hour of enterainment in my favorite MMOs.
Not to mention some sub-based MMOs have things like Plex or Chronoscrolls, using in-game gold to buy your subscription. Currently have enough gold to buy a half year of subcription in TERA and I already bought until February on top of that.
I don't know what it takes to make a successful mmo, but I feel I got my money's worth out of gw2. I can't say that about that most of the sub mmo's I've played.
Should Elder Scroll be BtP? I have no idea, but based on how often I've felt like I was burnt by sub mmo's in the past, it would have to be one heck of a great game for me to cough up the money again for any long term investment of my time.
If I was going to make an mmo, I'd wouldn't make it sub based. It would seem like to much of a risk.
It has been 2 months and hacks/bots are getting worse in GW2 not better. Same with their customer service.
P2P MMOs with almost no bots/hacks and amazing customer service?
Rift, TERA, WoW, EvE(not sure on this but I haven't seen complaints on hacks and poor customer service in EvE anywhere).
B2P/F2P...
I don't know, none?
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I'm not going to lie about any of them. This thread is about GW2 and B2P, the supposed holy messiah of MMO's come to save us from P2P bogeyman. Only problem is.... IN MY OPINION, GW2's launch and subsequent service have been worse than the majority of P2P games.
The onus is on GW2 to prove the B2P is/was superior, which it has failed to do.
No one is saying p2p games are bug free at launch, but in my experience the problems they have get fixed quicker or at the very least show signs of getting better
Last time i logged into gw2 (about a month ago) around 50% of the events in the 2 level 40 areas i was trying to level in werent working and hadnt been for over a week and the hackers/botters I had reported week one were still playing the game
Very few modern games can charge a sub and have success when they are based solely upon content and not game mechanics/systems that engage players longer than developer created content.
When you solely have developer created content, players chew through it and then go looking for more and usually have to wait.
If these games start putting in systems that engage players becauuse of their very nature such as nation building, trade, economy, housing, horizontal and vertical progression, then players will want to stick around longer.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
No hacks/bots in Tera? Who are you trying to kid. lol. Really no hacks/bots ever in WoW?
Gw2 is working on the hacks/bots and it is getting better (not that I ever found it to be that bad). Anyone who actually plays the game knows that. They did make the mistake of underesimating how many dicks are out in the world.
Did I say ever? No I didn't, but what you wont ever see is bot trains in TERA or WoW or people hacking a game mechanic on a daily basis using fly/wall and no clipping hacks(orbs in WvW).
Also, I did play GW2 religiously for a month, I have 498 hours played across all characters and that's why I know that, not because I don't play, because I do play.
Should be sub based without a cash shop, but with a service's store via the account or website for name changes, etc...
I want to play this game, I want to have access to everything the game has to offer, and I want the developers to have all the money they need to provide constant content releases and long term support for this game.
However,
It would be smart for the devs to have a contingency plan for the game that way if the initial sub based model fails they will have something to implement with a moments notice.
I want this game to be that awesome mmorpg that I will want to pay monthly for.
Redwall: The Warrior Reborn
Well, break it down into how many hours that one plays these games.
I purchased Dishonored for $60 and according to my steam account I have twenty hours in the game. I did one play through. I am in the process of one more play through. so let's say that's another twenty hours. So $60 for a good 40 hours playthrough and then I'm probably done with it.
Now how many hours did I put into my 4.5 years of lineage 2 or my LOTRO account?
If the game is good and has systems and content to keep me playing then "yes" I consider that $15 per month as measley.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Cloudsol/
Theres a difference between class balance issues (which btw never get fully fixed...ever) and progression blocking bugs, and "i win" pvp hacks.
Your comparing 2 of the biggest fails in sub based mmo's with the most succesful b2p/f2p mmo. So because the biggest failures are as bad as the biggest success for a b2p mmo, that means b2p is a success?
By saying that the 2 biggest failures when it comes to sub based mmo's have long fix times the same as gw2, you are kinda proving our point
Actually many players that left SWTOR and TSW said that they'd paly it if it was F2P/B2P but they are not paying a sub.
If the MMO is good enough then sure I'l pay a sub but the reality of the matter is that no game warrents a sub. EVE is an exception as one can find alternatives to a sub and they have free expansions along with endless content as it's player driven. Themepark MMOs there is none that warrents a sub as everything is scripted and in a month or two time one has already seen all the content.
I prefer a B2P model personally like GW2.
This
MMO guys always said they will go back to Game X if they go F2P, but truth if only handful of them really go back to the game, and even less portion of them remain in the game.
I hope this game is FUN enough to be sub base, 15 bucks per month for hourssss of entertainment like MMO is completely fine for me, as long as it delivers.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED