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  • AvatarBladeAvatarBlade Member UncommonPosts: 757
    Haven't done a lot of farming or DEs latley, but as far as explorable goes, more tokens for harder paths than for easy ones would be a way better solution. Don't mind it getting less token for running the same path only, but I did 2 of them in Arah yesterday. One has 2 champion fights and 2 boss fights, which took like 1.5-2h to complete. The second one had 1 champion fight and 5 boss fights, took like 4h to complete, yet gave the same ammount of tokens. Sure it was rewarding to finish that hard path, but it still felt that you should get a bit more tokens for completing it.
  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 Member Posts: 636
    Originally posted by Xasapis

    This is what they are actually doing, diminishing returns on dungeon rewards if you are too good or too fast, diminishing returns in dynamic events if you follow the zone crowd around and do as many as you can, diminishing rewards in collecting materials if you are a crafter and your daily routine is gathering them.

     

    The only part of the game that is not hit with diminishing returns yet is WvW. Once it does, my enjoyment of the game will plummet and it'll be time to move on to some other mmorpg, with more reasonable developers.

    I understand your point of view, but game economies are trashed by over-supply caused by eternally spawning farm mobs and player who can play for 5 times as many hours per day than the vast majority.

    The sense of acheivement and friendly competition for set gear etc. is spoiled for the majority by the 24/7 instance runners who get the gear in no time due to ever-respawning scripted challenges.

    Most MMO's lock you out to reduce the game-wrecking effects of this. ANet doesn't want these kinds of lock-outs - but it DOES have to deal with people who thrash the ass out of the game content without pausing for breath.

    What we are talking about here is a limitation on the few to serve the interests of the many.

    Try to understand the reasoning and validity of the arguement from this perspective. You may not like it, or agree with it, and you have the the right to move on. But you can't logically conclude ANet are unreasonable in principle, just because they have overblown the implementation at this early point in the game.

    The way they have done it nees to be fixed - the fact it needs to be done is not sensibly in question.

  • RaekonRaekon Member UncommonPosts: 531
    Originally posted by Voiidiin
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Voiidiin
    Originally posted by Scalpless
     for dungeons, you can run them as often as you want, as long as you don't just run the same path of the same dungeon over and over again.

    You are wrong about dungeons, after running TA then CM story, i went to AC and was capped.

    the cap is based on how fast you complete them

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/365276/ANET-commentary-on-patched-dungeons.html

    If you speed clear dungeons at a rate of more than 2/ hour, and continue to do that for some time your rewards will slowly begin to degrade. It doesn't kick in after running a single dungeon and it doesn't immediately zero out rewards.

     

    Sure thats fine, dungeons were really not my main gripe it was the arbitrary caps they placed on DEs and Mob killing/rewards.

    Its pretty clear you guys are only picking portions of my OP to suit your view of the game, its the whole update they released that basically makes players play only a specific way when it comes to the PvE.

    As i have already said, i am a big fan of GW2, this update has soured me on it though. 

    No offence here but you are contradicting yourself.

    These "guys" are not picking portions of your OP to suit their view of the game, these "guys" showing you proof on which parts of your post you were wrong.

    Now of course this and that wasn't your "main gripe" and something else was.

    Were you one of the guys that were indeed botting so the patch gave you a restriction upon it?

    Just asking cause you are coming across that way.

    Most of all since you claim that you intented to be only in GW2 and had "no intention" to buy all these other games but now after you saw that your drops are reduced or removed after 30-45 minutes of globbering on the same type of mob, you bought all these games?

    The manifesto actually held its word exact:

    You go into the game and after the tutorial you are free and have tons of choices.

    No hand holding quests that needs you to read a wall o text kill 10 then 20 then 40 then 80 rats and go back to deliver, no grinding or farming 24/7 to achieve something, no running back and forth between npcs to get or deliver a quest, no quests that prevents you from continuing your journey until you finish them (unlike many other games that do so).

    I'm gathering materials as I go often and killing mobs for materials aswell.

    I have 8 characters and no problems at all cause I never came across these restrictions and I don't think I will anytime soon.

    There are MANY MMOs out there that doesn't let you progress unless you finished a particular quest.

    Some like Atlantica Online even prevents you from leveling further if you didn't finish a certain quest.

    Guild Dungeons, Independant (Personal) Dungeons and other can be done only once per day.

    Mobs aren't giving you anything if you farm them for longer than like 10 minutes or are lower level than you.

    Several other restrictions

    All these restrictions are placed in the games to prevent or reduce botting so even ANet had to partially do so.

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by Connmacart
    People, step back and realise what you are whining about. You are whining about not getting a virtual item as fast as before. This is what is wrong with todays MMOs. It's not the MMOs that are the problem it is the people playing them. Like in evolution learn to adapt or die a slow painful death.

    It is about freedom and "bad" solutions.

  • lifeordinarylifeordinary Member Posts: 646
    Originally posted by Connmacart
    People, step back and realise what you are whining about. You are whining about not getting a virtual item as fast as before. This is what is wrong with todays MMOs. It's not the MMOs that are the problem it is the people playing them. Like in evolution learn to adapt or die a slow painful death.

    You are right. It is the players who are the real problem. Just how i thought you were the actual problem when you were trashing TSW. MMOS are not the problem. *cough*

    It is always players fault when you are defending your precious.

  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    Originally posted by Connmacart
    People, step back and realise what you are whining about. You are whining about not getting a virtual item as fast as before. This is what is wrong with todays MMOs. It's not the MMOs that are the problem it is the people playing them. Like in evolution learn to adapt or die a slow painful death.

    No, it's about promising a game with a certain hype mechanism, presenting the game and then altering the game once you have the customer money. It's about changing the game in an unreasonable fashion because the cash shop bottom line is getting a hit compared to the previous week.

    • People play too much. That needs to stop, they should play in smalller intervals and spread their time around in tons of activities so not so many servers are needed and those who are there are not strained.
    • People should not get too much gold in-game. Any money making activity is getting nerfed (dungeon runs and material selling being the prime suspects). It seems WvW is not making much gold for now, the siege equipment burn the gold that is produced in the battlegrounds.
    It's not the people who are the problem in this case. Noone complained about the absurd token grind that is needed for dungeon gear. Yet developers changed that part and hurt legit playing gamers, not bots and not farmers. And that's why people are complaining.
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by Xasapis

    This is what they are actually doing, diminishing returns on dungeon rewards if you are too good or too fast, diminishing returns in dynamic events if you follow the zone crowd around and do as many as you can, diminishing rewards in collecting materials if you are a crafter and your daily routine is gathering them.

     

    The only part of the game that is not hit with diminishing returns yet is WvW. Once it does, my enjoyment of the game will plummet and it'll be time to move on to some other mmorpg, with more reasonable developers.

    I understand your point of view, but game economies are trashed by over-supply caused by eternally spawning farm mobs and player who can play for 5 times as many hours per day than the vast majority.

    The sense of acheivement and friendly competition for set gear etc. is spoiled for the majority by the 24/7 instance runners who get the gear in no time due to ever-respawning scripted challenges.

    Most MMO's lock you out to reduce the game-wrecking effects of this. ANet doesn't want these kinds of lock-outs - but it DOES have to deal with people who thrash the ass out of the game content without pausing for breath.

    What we are talking about here is a limitation on the few to serve the interests of the many.

    Try to understand the reasoning and validity of the arguement from this perspective. You may not like it, or agree with it, and you have the the right to move on. But you can't logically conclude ANet are unreasonable in principle, just because they have overblown the implementation at this early point in the game.

    The way they have done it nees to be fixed - the fact it needs to be done is not sensibly in question.

    You have to realise that those farming dungeon tokens for armor and weapon pieces, were doing it for the looks. People already have max stat gear via crafting, they just look aweful. So if their goal was to reduce gold collecting from the dungeons, they could have put diminishing returns only there, instead you get diminishing returns on everything.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Connmacart
    People, step back and realise what you are whining about. You are whining about not getting a virtual item as fast as before. This is what is wrong with todays MMOs. It's not the MMOs that are the problem it is the people playing them. Like in evolution learn to adapt or die a slow painful death.

    It is about freedom and "bad" solutions.

    Is it hell as like. You are free to gind the feck out of the same dungeon over and over again, you are free to grind the exact same DE over and over again. You are free to stand in one spot and grind the feck out of the same spawn over and over again.

     

    Your loot will start to slow down and then run out for a while on that specific task, but you can still do the task. "Oh noes, my freedomz!!!"

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 Member Posts: 636
    Originally posted by AvatarBlade
    Haven't done a lot of farming or DEs latley, but as far as explorable goes, more tokens for harder paths than for easy ones would be a way better solution. Don't mind it getting less token for running the same path only, but I did 2 of them in Arah yesterday. One has 2 champion fights and 2 boss fights, which took like 1.5-2h to complete. The second one had 1 champion fight and 5 boss fights, took like 4h to complete, yet gave the same ammount of tokens. Sure it was rewarding to finish that hard path, but it still felt that you should get a bit more tokens for completing it.

    Yeah the queues of flaming armour geared hardcores outside of CoF doing the same run all day is testament to this. I've done the run three times and am now bored of it.

    The fact I want the flame weapons for transforms means I will be running  the dungeon some more, but I am getting tired of being forced, when I am pugging, to do the same run ad nauseam because the gear looks good and everyone wants it as fast as possible becuase it is level 75 and not something they regard as endgame (aka get through it ASAP) - I want to do the other wings of the dugeon and this imbalance is spoiling my enjoyment and  the enjoyment of others I know trying to enjoy the rich extent of the game - not wallowing in the farming hotspots doing the same thing again and again....

    ....the little-discussed flip side to the leetist desires and negative collateral effects of the 'I want it all and I want it now' crowd.

  • sr7olsnipersr7olsniper Member UncommonPosts: 206
    Originally posted by Caliburn101

    Let's be clear - running the same explorable choice in the same dungeon 100 times is not done for enjoyment of the challenge or experience - it's done for gear and the warm glow of leetism, or alternatively, to feel you have kept up with the leetists.... neither are good in my opinion, and ANet agrees with this sentiment.

    That said - it is however not right that this wasn't better managed. The OP (or anyone else) should be able to run whatever dungeons they want as many time as they want to.

    Where ANet should put in the limitations to balance economy, gently discourage leetist tendencies and mitigate the negative feedback effect of general dungeon rinse/repeaters and economy trashing matt grinders et al is with diminishing returns to keep the gulf in 'kewl' gear not getting too great between the small 24/7 minority and the 7/48 majority and the economy not getting ruined for the many by the few.

    Run it as often as you like - but you should get something like 15 tokens, 10 tokens, 5 tokens then 2 tokens per run afterwards within a 24 hour period. Grind mobs all day - but your drop vendor-trash/crafting-matts ratios should bottom out after a while. This entirely sensible and reasonable.

    No lockouts, play how you like, but you can't pimp yourself in 1 week by making your fingers bleed and then moan about the game being over for you. Nor will you have to suffer what amounts to denial of service for something you are paying for.

    A far better game-moderating method than temporary content bans.

    I may not like the 24/7 no-lifer playstyle and resultant elitist expectation on the one hand and the passive-aggressive frustration is produces on the other that it engenders, but the fact is, anyone deserves to play how they like as long as they don't exploit - and what is being discussed here is in now way an exploit and should not be treated as a 'lesser version' of one by selective play-content being blocked.

    While you post some very good arguemnts, I would argue that getting diminish returns on the tokens would be a poor choice. What they could do is either have a weekly Cap, or lock out the dungeons so that you cant run them over and over. You never and I mean NEVER punish a player for playing the way they want. If they want to be elitist with their buddies you let them do it; it is a game after all and their way  of fun doenst have to be the same as yours or mine. What you do is build a system that is as fair as possible for everybody, meaning that if you ahve more time to play you can get stuff faster to a certain degree while not making it impossible on the regular people. Think of the OP, he has a job and he farms stuff for his kids, I am pretty sure he plays on the weekends and free days a bit more than 3 hrs. If working people want to spend their weekends playing and doing the content of their prefference then they should be able to and not feel punished by the developers. It was a similar issue with FF14, you never punish a player but you reward him reversly in a way. Even while at the end it evens out, no one wants to feel like there is a wall that you cant beat no matter what. 

    At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir

  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337

    Or simply reward the harder paths with more rewards:

    • Path A takes 20mins? Give 20 tokens total
    • Path B takes 40mins? Give 40 tokens
    • Path C takes 2 hours? Give 120 tokens
    That way you'd have a choice, do I do the easiest path until I get sick of it or just go for the others as well, knowing it will take more time but it'll be worth it?
     
    They wouldn't even need to adjust the difficulty between the paths. They'd only need to adjust the challenge vs reward ratio.
  • sr7olsnipersr7olsniper Member UncommonPosts: 206
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Connmacart
    People, step back and realise what you are whining about. You are whining about not getting a virtual item as fast as before. This is what is wrong with todays MMOs. It's not the MMOs that are the problem it is the people playing them. Like in evolution learn to adapt or die a slow painful death.

    It is about freedom and "bad" solutions.

    Is it hell as like. You are free to gind the feck out of the same dungeon over and over again, you are free to grind the exact same DE over and over again. You are free to stand in one spot and grind the feck out of the same spawn over and over again.

     

    Your loot will start to slow down and then run out for a while on that specific task, but you can still do the task. "Oh noes, my freedomz!!!"

    Then there is no point in plahing now is tehre. People do the pve content because they need that goal to look forward to. Carrot on a stick if you may want to call it, but people need it. Without it there is little to no reason to log on. You want to do something because it gives you a sense of accomplishment, you can get points in pvp or you can do boring stuff like farm to be able to craft that 1 item  you so much want but cant afford to buy from the market. These are just examples of what players do, but ultimately they do it to be rewarded in some way or another. What you are suggesting is basically for people to repeat the same thing over and over and over without any reward and that, my friend, is what causes people to leave a game. 

    At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir

  • PieRadPieRad Member Posts: 1,108
    Originally posted by Sylvarii
    This has nothing to do with botters and more to do with ArenaNet wanting everyone to use the cash shop. Did you really think that buying the game is enough for ArenaNet,nope cashshop is their bread and butter.

    I think he hit the nail, as one of those no lifers myself (as so kindly refered to by other posters), I can say that by running CoF 100 times, I got enough gold to buy everything i needed in terms of exotic accessories, guild back pack, exotic underwater weapons, and gems, enough gems to buy all inventory and bank slots, now I have no need for gems.

    I'm neither for or against limitations, they just need to be implemented in a way so that it doesn't become a hassle to legit gamers, regardless of their playtime and playstyle.

    image

  • sr7olsnipersr7olsniper Member UncommonPosts: 206
    Originally posted by Xasapis

    Or simply reward the harder paths with more rewards:

    • Path A takes 20mins? Give 20 tokens total
    • Path B takes 40mins? Give 40 tokens
    • Path C takes 2 hours? Give 80 tokens

    Yes, this is a just waht to do it. You dont punish the player but reward him based on their choices. If it is shorter and easier to do path A they should get X amount of reward, if path B is a lot harder then you give him X+1... at the end it should be the same timewise but ultimetly you will have to run more times of Path A to get the same amount of points you would get from Path B in a set amount of time. That is how you fix the problem. You give the player the choice to do whatever they desire within set boundaries. 

    At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir

  • IfrianMMOIfrianMMO Member UncommonPosts: 252

    This is as horrible as when blizzard implemented those "dishonor" points for killing stuff in pvp servers.

    Very disappointed and may make me re-think future purchases.

    image
  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Connmacart
    People, step back and realise what you are whining about. You are whining about not getting a virtual item as fast as before. This is what is wrong with todays MMOs. It's not the MMOs that are the problem it is the people playing them. Like in evolution learn to adapt or die a slow painful death.

    It is about freedom and "bad" solutions.

    Is it hell as like. You are free to gind the feck out of the same dungeon over and over again, you are free to grind the exact same DE over and over again. You are free to stand in one spot and grind the feck out of the same spawn over and over again.

     

    Your loot will start to slow down and then run out for a while on that specific task, but you can still do the task. "Oh noes, my freedomz!!!"

     

    You can do the task, but it is no longer a viable method to get certain items/exp/gold for certain amount of time, which means less options for getting those items/exp/gold, which means less freedom.

  • sr7olsnipersr7olsniper Member UncommonPosts: 206
    Originally posted by PieRad
    Originally posted by Sylvarii
    This has nothing to do with botters and more to do with ArenaNet wanting everyone to use the cash shop. Did you really think that buying the game is enough for ArenaNet,nope cashshop is their bread and butter.

    I think he hit the nail, as one of those no lifers myself (as so kindly refered to by other posters), I can say that by running CoF 100 times, I got enough gold to buy everything i needed in terms of exotic accessories, guild back pack, exotic underwater weapons, and gems, enough gems to buy all inventory and bank slots, now I have no need for gems.

    I'm neither for or against limitations, they just need to be implemented in a way so that it doesn't become a hassle to legit gamers, regardless of their playtime and playstyle.

    I totally agree with you and  your Steven Seagal Remarks

    At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir

  • ZikariZikari Member Posts: 78

    I can live with the DR on farming the same mobs in an area and running the same dungeon over and over again, the one that strikes me a bit tu intrusive is a DR on Dynamic Events you run?

    Can someone confirm if this is only for running the same event chain over and over or the total ammount of DE's in one zone? So lets say I level in a zone like Sparkfly Fen and just participate in events as the pop up, kill the risen Megalodon, defend two of the frog outposts, collect artifacts and so on. Done that in 25 minutes, then Tequoatl comes up and I port their to kill the dragon, but get nothing out of it, beacause I did to many DE's in the lat 30 minutes? If this is how it works, it would suck big time, the ammount of DE's puppong up is quite high, you easily do more than 5 per 30 minutes...

  • PieRadPieRad Member Posts: 1,108
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by AvatarBlade
    Haven't done a lot of farming or DEs latley, but as far as explorable goes, more tokens for harder paths than for easy ones would be a way better solution. Don't mind it getting less token for running the same path only, but I did 2 of them in Arah yesterday. One has 2 champion fights and 2 boss fights, which took like 1.5-2h to complete. The second one had 1 champion fight and 5 boss fights, took like 4h to complete, yet gave the same ammount of tokens. Sure it was rewarding to finish that hard path, but it still felt that you should get a bit more tokens for completing it.

    Yeah the queues of flaming armour geared hardcores outside of CoF doing the same run all day is testament to this. I've done the run three times and am now bored of it.

    The fact I want the flame weapons for transforms means I will be running  the dungeon some more, but I am getting tired of being forced, when I am pugging, to do the same run ad nauseam because the gear looks good and everyone wants it as fast as possible becuase it is level 75 and not something they regard as endgame (aka get through it ASAP) - I want to do the other wings of the dugeon and this imbalance is spoiling my enjoyment and  the enjoyment of others I know trying to enjoy the rich extent of the game - not wallowing in the farming hotspots doing the same thing again and again....

    ....the little-discussed flip side to the leetist desires and negative collateral effects of the 'I want it all and I want it now' crowd.

    Sounds like you're jealous?

    I mean, those of us who put the time and effort into getting it fast, deserves it, don't we? We play however we like, and we don't talk bad about you, so why do you feel the need to talk trash about us?

    What is the negative collateral effect from me getting all the pieces fast? Does it hurt you in any way?

    Not trying to start a war here, I'm just curious.

    image

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 Member Posts: 636
    Originally posted by sr7olsniper

    While you post some very good arguemnts, I would argue that getting diminish returns on the tokens would be a poor choice. What they could do is either have a weekly Cap, or lock out the dungeons so that you cant run them over and over. You never and I mean NEVER punish a player for playing the way they want. If they want to be elitist with their buddies you let them do it; it is a game after all and their way  of fun doenst have to be the same as yours or mine. What you do is build a system that is as fair as possible for everybody, meaning that if you ahve more time to play you can get stuff faster to a certain degree while not making it impossible on the regular people. Think of the OP, he has a job and he farms stuff for his kids, I am pretty sure he plays on the weekends and free days a bit more than 3 hrs. If working people want to spend their weekends playing and doing the content of their prefference then they should be able to and not feel punished by the developers. It was a similar issue with FF14, you never punish a player but you reward him reversly in a way. Even while at the end it evens out, no one wants to feel like there is a wall that you cant beat no matter what. 

    This is the core of the issue and I thank you for raising it.

    Why regard a system which limits the rate of gain as punishment?

    Why defend the right of the few to achieve their goals at such accelerated rates at the expense of the others (crash and burn economy etc.)?

    There is a balance to be had here. Sure playerswith more time and/or skill should acheive things - but in a way which doesn't negatively impact the slower majority to such an extreme.

    ANet want people to play to have fun because the challenging content is fun - not to play to feel good simply because their pixelbooty is that much better than the other people on the server.

    Sure feel good about your gear - but not at the expense of tipping the economy over a cliff and making people with other playstyles feel like their acheivements are pointless by comparison - where such players value their own pixelbooty that is....

    This whole casual/hardcore arguement is OLD and TIRED and needs to be put to bed and smothered as it sleeps never to rise again. I have been on both sides of it and looking back can't see a time it had a point. Raging elitism on one side and spiteful jealousy on the other.

    I would like to see my new MMO home go the extra mile (on the journey already begun here....) to square this circle and just let people get on with having fun - regardless of which side they sit on, and how blinkered or open-minded their views.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Connmacart
     

     

     

    You can do the task, but it is no longer a viable method to get certain items/exp/gold for certain amount of time, which means less options for getting those items/exp/gold, which means less freedom.

    You are free to do dungeons, you are free to do them at a rate which will not hinder getting gold, you are free to ram through dungeons and then concentrate on farming by actually moving from one location to another.

     

    I guess it wasn't "free" for people who wanted to move around and explore, given the fact they didn't get the stuff they needed as fast a a group zerging a DE or dungeon in that case.

     

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Connmacart
     

     

     

    You can do the task, but it is no longer a viable method to get certain items/exp/gold for certain amount of time, which means less options for getting those items/exp/gold, which means less freedom.

    You are free to do dungeons, you are free to do them at a rate which will not hinder getting gold, you are free to ram through dungeons and then concentrate on farming by actually moving from one location to another.

     

    I guess it wasn't "free" for people who wanted to move around and explore, given the fact they didn't get the stuff they needed as fast a a group zerging a DE or dungeon in that case.

     

     

    That's right, I don't think it is a good idea either to let one repeatable task give so easy gain that other tasks become pointless in relation to it. However, there are other methods to solve it, like the token change depending on path like suggested above.

  • IfrianMMOIfrianMMO Member UncommonPosts: 252

    I am a casual and i am ashamed of the rest of casuals who are obviously bitterly jealous over a bunch of players obtaining gear by spending focused time and effort into getting said gear.

    This is twice as ridiculous considering the gear gives no extra stats at that point so " hardcore" players merely get to look better a bit sooner than we do.

    I never understood this bitter butthurting some people feel when someone else has something they did not obtain yet.

     

    Let everyone play the way their time, ability or game-way allows them to, and concentrate on your own geez.

    Again, especially in a game where they ain´t gaining stat-related vantage by "farming".

    image
  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    Originally posted by Xasapis

    Or simply reward the harder paths with more rewards:

    • Path A takes 20mins? Give 20 tokens total
    • Path B takes 40mins? Give 40 tokens
    • Path C takes 2 hours? Give 120 tokens
    That way you'd have a choice, do I do the easiest path until I get sick of it or just go for the others as well, knowing it will take more time but it'll be worth it?
     
    They wouldn't even need to adjust the difficulty between the paths. They'd only need to adjust the challenge vs reward ratio.

    That solution wouldn't work.

    The sensible choice would be path A all the time for PuGs. - if you have an ass in your team, reduce the amount of irl getting in the way, risk for connection problems, etc.

     

    It would have to be :

    Path A takes 20 minutes 20 tokens.

    Path B takes 40 minutes 60 tokens.

    Path C takes 2 hours 250 tokens.

    But then this doesn't say anything about dificulty - a path might take longer because it has longer fights not harder fights.

    There would still be a path giving better rewards for time and risk - that would be the path PuGs would take.

    Guild groups would go for the highest absolute reward.

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • sr7olsnipersr7olsniper Member UncommonPosts: 206
    Originally posted by Caliburn101
    Originally posted by sr7olsniper

    While you post some very good arguemnts, I would argue that getting diminish returns on the tokens would be a poor choice. What they could do is either have a weekly Cap, or lock out the dungeons so that you cant run them over and over. You never and I mean NEVER punish a player for playing the way they want. If they want to be elitist with their buddies you let them do it; it is a game after all and their way  of fun doenst have to be the same as yours or mine. What you do is build a system that is as fair as possible for everybody, meaning that if you ahve more time to play you can get stuff faster to a certain degree while not making it impossible on the regular people. Think of the OP, he has a job and he farms stuff for his kids, I am pretty sure he plays on the weekends and free days a bit more than 3 hrs. If working people want to spend their weekends playing and doing the content of their prefference then they should be able to and not feel punished by the developers. It was a similar issue with FF14, you never punish a player but you reward him reversly in a way. Even while at the end it evens out, no one wants to feel like there is a wall that you cant beat no matter what. 

    This is the core of the issue and I thank you for raising it.

    Why regard a system which limits the rate of gain as punishment?

    Why defend the right of the few to achieve their goals at such accelerated rates at the expense of the others (crash and burn economy etc.)?

    There is a balance to be had here. Sure playerswith more time and/or skill should acheive things - but in a way which doesn't negatively impact the slower majority to such an extreme.

    ANet want people to play to have fun because the challenging content is fun - not to play to feel good simply because their pixelbooty is that much better than the other people on the server.

    Sure feel good about your gear - but not at the expense of tipping the economy over a cliff and making people with other playstyles feel like their acheivements are pointless by comparison - where such players value their own pixelbooty that is....

    This whole casual/hardcore arguement is OLD and TIRED and needs to be put to bed and smothered as it sleeps never to rise again. I have been on both sides of it and looking back can't see a time it had a point. Raging elitism on one side and spiteful jealousy on the other.

    I would like to see my new MMO home go the extra mile (on the journey already begun here....) to square this circle and just let people get on with having fun - regardless of which side they sit on, and how blinkered or open-minded their views.

    That is why you add different methods to adquire stuff. For example you can make it so that you can get X ammount of karma per week and you have special types of gear with that, but then you can perma farm stuff for gold and get other type fo gear. Ultimetly people will want to get the one wiht karma but they can still keep getting gold and look forward to something in the mean time. While people bitch and whine about this in games like WoW, it is a method that works. You can only earn 1000 valor points per week raiding or by doing dungeons but you can keep getting Justice Points if you so desire. The best gear is with Valor but you can still be able to get something with Justice Points, be it either gear or items. It is something that people can earn and still feel like they are running the dungones not only because they are fun but for a purpose. I mean lets be honest, if you really wanted to run something because it was fun you wouldn;t do it over and over again. Think of a single player game, how many times have you replayed a game that you recently beat? My favorite game of all time is Chrono Trigger and I replayed that game to death, but even then I would say 10 times tops witht he last ones years apart. You cant have people do that in an mmo becasue you diminish the pool of players that can run your group content. So people need something besides the fun factor to keep runing this dungeons because lets face it, ruinning the same thing over and over gets boring and the last thing you want people to feel is boredom playing your game. 

    At least with a sub game they know that people won't tolerate bullshit and leave. With anet we have no recourse but to buy our own lube so our assholes don't get too stretched out from getting bent over a table at Anets will. - Hrimnir

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