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X-post from Reddit: You are all destroying the MMO genre, and you don't even know why you act the wa

TorxTorx west monroe, LAPosts: 205Member

This is a cross post from the /r/Guildwars2 Reddit community that I thought you all should read. It doesn't apply to all but definately does to the majority.

 

 

God save me from some aspects of the MMO community. You people are impossible. You have ruined a ton of AAA games in the last few years - you DEMAND treadmill gated endgame, beat it in a month, and then whine and abandon a game for not having enough content (you all know exactly the games I am talking about). Now a game has to literally FORCE you to stop doing the same mindless activity over and over and actually do different things to enjoy endgame, and you all bitch and whine because you can't grind yourself to boredom in a month like you have done with every other MMO.

You are destroying the viability of MMOs by being entitled impatient kids who can't make fun for yourself, you have to have a game hand it all to you on a silver platter and whine and bitch if you don't get it fast enough, or complain because you have to work hard to get something you want because they won't let you run the easiest dungeon over and over or run the same dynamic event over and over. Fuck everyone whining about this.

You all keep acting like this, you realize NO MMO WILL EVER SATISFY YOU. You will buy a new MMO, play it for a month - bitch and whine - and then abandon it and the company will lose money. What will happen in 5-10 years? Nobody will be making MMOs anymore, because they will simply not be profitable.

Maybe the problem isn't the MMO, maybe the problem is you. Maybe you need to examine the way you approach an MMO - many of you will spend hours playing a FPS with no progression because it is fun - and then you whine because spvp has no progression and say so "what incentive do I have to do spvp if I don't get better gear?" (Actual statement I have heard).

Many of you will spend hours exploring the world in Skryim, doing tons of side-quests, and yet whine and complain because all there is to do in GW2 is explore the world and run dungeons and do events. That is like rushing to finish the storyline quests in Skyrim and then complaining that the game has almost no content.

Why can't we as an MMO community take the attitude we bring to FPS games, RPG games, and apply it to an MMO? Too many damn players feel like the only thing that motivates them in an MMO is the "carrot" of gear always being held out in front of them (and don't know what to do with themselves without it) - and you are destroying the genre. You need to fix that shit before you destroy the genre that we love.

We take the attitude of playing games for FUN in almost every other genre, so why can't we do it for MMOs too?

 

Link to the original thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/104j7o/you_are_all_destroying_the_mmo_genre_and_you_dont/

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Comments

  • IndolIndol O''Fallon, MOPosts: 189Member

    1 million percent agree with this.

     

    People are their own worst enemies.

     

    It seems like many are more motivated by their ego and greed rather than just playing a game for fun's sake.

     

    I think this is largely a result of societies competitive attitude bleeding over to wherever it can, distorting peoples perceptions.

  • TruthXHurtsTruthXHurts El Do, KSPosts: 1,555Member
    I'd like to take that carrot and stick it where the sun don't shine. It's not just MMO's it's everything. This generation is hopeless. All they do is complain about anything that even has the slightest hint of difficulty. Kids today can't hardly tie their shoes. At the age of 7 I was  programming my parents VCR for them. A bunch of lazy idiots from my generation apparently raised a bunch of even more lazy idiots, and unless we can sterilize them or just go all Rwanda on them I don't see a very bright future for America. 

    "I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Seattle, WAPosts: 1,059Member Uncommon
    Hating on video games is serious business for some folks!

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  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    A few thoughts:

    Why complain about generic archetypes rather than talking to specific individuals?

    You are not responsible for controlling anyone's behaviour but your own

    Communities are not individuals - don't personify them and then blame them for having contradicting desires.

    There's a fine line between complaints and bravado ("content is too easy for me", "I'm done already")

    Developers are trying to entertan both people who play 5 hours a week and people who play 100 hours a week both expecting the same illusion of ever-increasing wealth and power.

    If we are using the skinner box effect of MMOs as a drug, that addiction is going to have consequences - for ourselves and for those around us.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member
    Originally posted by maplestone

    A few thoughts:

    Why complain about generic archetypes rather than talking to specific individuals?

    You are not responsible for controlling anyone's behaviour but your own

    Communities are not individuals - don't personify them and then blame them for having contradicting desires.

    There's a fine line between complaints and bravado ("content is too easy for me", "I'm done already")

    Developers are trying to entertan both people who play 5 hours a week and people who play 100 hours a week both expecting the same illusion of ever-increasing wealth and power.

    If we are using the skinner box effect of MMOs as a drug, that addiction is going to have consequences - for ourselves and for those around us.

    Some day, unicorn, I'll post as fast as you. THIS^

    That OP doesn't even realize he's talking to (at least) two separate groups in his rant.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member

    I agree that the super-casual grind-a-holic themepark players are the current issue with the genre. As they themselves don't know what they really want, and then jump on the bandwagon of a new MMO without actually knowing anything about it. Then, they attack anyone who posts a single ounce of criticism allowing the developers 100% motion to make a horrible product because the feedback they're getting is never negative.

     

    This is why I believe Aion, Rift, SWTOR, and now GW2 has gone the directions they have gone. I'm sorry if you don't see it, but even GW2 is the same-ol-same-old thing just wish more "choices". It is still a grind-fest repeat-a-holic linear treadmill only "prettied" up.

     

    I'm looking for emergent TRULY dynamic content like we had in SWG, DAOC, etc. It doesn't have to be a "sandbox", but it most certainly shouldn't be as linear as GW2 or SWTOR have shown themselves to be.

     

    I don't want quest markers, I don't want maps that show me the "level path" I have to take or should take, and I most certainly do NOT want "locked in" generic classes like "Warrior" or "Cleric".

     

    All in all a good post from Reddit, which is rare.

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Well gw2 is a start, can't wait until mop launches and the gear addicts go play that.

    I think the problems are
    1 players
    2 the subscription model that encouraged mass grinding to get your moneys worth
    3 lazy developers slapping loot on things to get people to play, rather than making games fun to play

    I would like mmos to start charging per in game time rather than monthly sub, then the power gamers pay more. The subscription model is reverse socialism it has the majority of players (casual) paying for content mostly consumed by the minority (hardcores, who bugger off back to wow moaning about lack of content anyway)
  • JayarisJayaris InvercargillPosts: 308Member

    Whining about whining, 

    SRPG's are designed to be a single player experience, they have better story/voice-acting/graphics ad infinitum. An MMORPG is a culmination of sub-par elements from other games.

    Likewise, PvP is more drawn out and less balanced. So no, that line of argument isn't at all valid.

    Hi

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member

    Don't let the companies off the hook, they helped the cause the cycle that led to what this is, and although it may not be 100% the correct place to blame, it was likely WoW that started it.

     

     

    The problem is games used to be tougher, longer and you had to work to achieve things. Players were happy when they did achieve because of this but at the same time they THOUGHT they didn't like things to be hard and take a long time to accomplish. The fundamental thing is gamers often times don't know what it is they actually like. They think they want a change but if you change the game that way they get bored and quit.

     

    Because of this, games started making themselves easier, faster and all around more casual friendly to steal the players away from the competition. The first and biggest example of this is WoW, and even it has gotten easier and faster as it has aged in order to keep competitors from stealing from it.

     

    So the companies are partially to blame because they give players what they THINK they want in order to get them in the door. Those players get bored so quickly because by getting everything they thought they wanted the game became far too fast and easy. They then jump ship in 2 weeks to 3 months to the next title giving them what they think they want and they become perpetual MMO hoppers, jumping on each new release hoping it will hold their attention while being easy and quick (3 things that cannot go together ever. If something is quick and easy, it has no way of holding you attention for a long time by default).

     

     

    This means it is both companies and gamers fault and they are feeding into each other which is why it just gets worse and worse. And yes, the only way it is going to change is with the MMO industry dying off and a hybrid breed of lots of players online with some interaction with one another with a very casual experience but that doesn't come close to resembling MMOs.

     

    I have actually supported some smaller/indie MMOs that I felt had a lot of problems, simply because they were trying new and different things and I wanted to show there is a market for such change. Most people would never think of using their money in that way though and instead will by the new major MMO every couple months and the new CoD every year while bitching that nothing is changing, yet they can't see that by constantly giving $60 to the companies that aren't changing anything, nothing will change.

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    I dont get dissapointed in mmo's since I have realistic expectations. It's hilarious to see people whine about so many games, often they are even right about many things, but the sad part is that they really should have seen it coming.

     

    Diablo 3 was a good game imo, it was exactly what I thought it would be, and it's absolutely crazy how people got broken and enraged over it, because these fools had been waiting 10 years for the game and the final product did not meet their carefully crafted expectations which were purely based on imagination. What else can it be? A launch day does not magically turn products into something else.

     

    I think it's more than fine to want some change and new things in the genre, I want that too. But I dont think it's fine to get enraged over games that dont bring some shit that a person wants but was never promised. Also common problem seems to be, that kids are not satisfied, the features are there in full force, but they do not fit the perfectly crafted image out of ass that is in the head of the special customer.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

    So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

    Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

    Also, comparing apples (FPS) to oranges (MMORPGs) is stupid. You can't say that what makes FPS fun can be directly applied to MMORPGs, they are two different type of games.

  • MuntzMuntz Minneapolis, MNPosts: 332Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yamota

    Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

    So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

    Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

    However, you can also persuade your customer to like what you offer. It happens all the time. Change is hard though, it's easier to sell a product to someone who is already familar and likes what you have to offer but it isn't the only way to do it. 

  • XzenXzen Los Alamos, NMPosts: 2,607Member Common
    Originally posted by Yamota

    Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

    So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

    Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

    I don't know man. A lot of people watch reality TV and bad Movie remakes and it has been ruining the quality of both forms of entertainment. When a good movie does come out I see a lot of complaints from the same people because it didn't have enough explosions etc.....

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,656Member Uncommon
    el posto excelente word.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TorxTorx west monroe, LAPosts: 205Member

    Please keep in mind that this is a subject I thought would be thoroughly enjoyed here and discussed. Not all points are my own I am simply the messenger.

     

     That being said there are points to be taken from this arguement although not all are accurate I definately see where this guy is coming from that originally made this post on Reddit.

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  • EricDanieEricDanie Rio de JaneiroPosts: 2,238Member
    This guy made some excellent points. I believe people play the MMO genre more as an addiction (content locust with an endless lust for power) than to actually have fun (just playing and enjoying whatever the game offers), which is why you see this kind of complaints and excessive bashing (what is really the point of going out of your way to spend time mindless bashing games? not talking about the valid complaints here, just talking about the unholy crusaders) while they are basically nonexistant for single player games.
  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Yamota

    Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

    So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

    Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

    I don't know man. A lot of people watch reality TV and bad Movie remakes and it has been ruining the quality of both forms of entertainment. When a good movie does come out I see a lot of complaints from the same people because it didn't have enough explosions etc.....

    I dont know what you mean, good movies get good ratings. The latest Batman movie was awesome and it got awesome ratings and the fact that reality TV is popular is because apparently alot of people like them and you cant blame people for what they like. Like you cant blame people if they dont like GW 2:s version of end game.

    A corporations who blames customers for not buying their stuff is a corporation which will go bankrupt and this is what the OP does not get where he seems to want to blame customers for not, allegedly, liking something he likes and acting like that will ruin the genre and that is just nonsense.

    They might ruin it from his point of view, like from my point of view who like Asheron's Call and Ultima Online and think the current selection of MMORPGs are not all that good, but that does not make the genre ruined. 

  • negativf4kknegativf4kk WorthingPosts: 377Member Uncommon

    MMO will always be. Only it will become Massively Co-op Online Games. Play for a month and move on. 

    All that thanks to the "I want it all and now" generation of gamers who r not interested in MMO and its rules. And Devs who only interested in $$$$$$.

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  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by Yamota
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Yamota

    Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

    So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

    Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

    I don't know man. A lot of people watch reality TV and bad Movie remakes and it has been ruining the quality of both forms of entertainment. When a good movie does come out I see a lot of complaints from the same people because it didn't have enough explosions etc.....

    I dont know what you mean, good movies get good ratings. The latest Batman movie was awesome and it got awesome ratings and the fact that reality TV is popular is because apparently alot of people like them and you cant blame people for what they like. Like you cant blame people if they dont like GW 2:s version of end game.

    A corporations who blames customers for not buying their stuff is a corporation which will go bankrupt and this is what the OP does not get where he seems to want to blame customers for not, allegedly, liking something he likes and acting like that will ruin the genre and that is just nonsense.

    They might ruin it from his point of view, like from my point of view who like Asheron's Call and Ultima Online and think the current selection of MMORPGs are not all that good, but that does not make the genre ruined. 

    It is actually an extremely flawed view that you have.

     

    True facts is that TV ratings are at their all time lowest point. Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had. Those who stayed were the ones who enjoyed the new reality TV crapfest. The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do. Those are the true facts.

     

    The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. Sure there are people who are going out and watching every Twilight movie that comes out and making that franchise money, but the industry as a whole is suffering very badly. The US market has gone down rapidly. The only thing that is helping counter act that is there are emerging world wide markets who are growing as they've now reached the technological point of putting theatres up and building it into the culture.

     

    The same is with the MMO genre. The companies are putting out stuff that only one small segment likes. So yes, those players are buying and playing those MMOs. However, the companies are missing out on millions of other users because they do not know how to make a game those people will buy and play for long periods of time. All of the companies are fighting over the same small market segment and it is killing them all.

     

    Actual facts are that the MMO genre is struggling to make profits and keep it alive. Many big companies have already said they won't invest any future money into MMOs because they don't see any profitability in that market at all.

     

    Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

  • halflife25halflife25 Toronto, ONPosts: 737Member

    What a load of bull. Could it be that simple that good games are successful and bad games are not? instead of blaming the players and community...just think about it.

    I read OP in voice of Jay Leno. It was quite fun.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    This argument is a waste of time. Both sides are acting like there is an objective definition of what constitutes a great MMO. People just like different things.

     

    MMOs have a lot of issues though. The biggest issue is staleness. The reason we need new MMOs with new ideas isn't because old games suck. Its a mastery issue. Once I can exploit a game to the point where there is nothing to learn I want to leave. I dislike current MMOs because they don't do anything new. The system comes pre solved for me.

     

    I love strategy games because they are small enough to have significant gameplay differences. Warlords Battlecry is not the same as Achron is not the same as Starcraft is not the same as Total Annihilation is not the same as etc etc.

    Most of the big MMOs are totally the same in the gameplay. I already know how to succeed. Its not the same for genres with less financial investment.

    TBS games are even MORE versatile than RTS games. No amount of playing Wesnoth or MoM is going to teach you how to succeed at Dominions. When they add a new feature it MATTERS. You have to deal with it.

    In MMOs you have a dude, with skills, and an inventory. That's it. Maybe GW2 has spell combos. That's the one real change. 

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
    The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
    Those are the true facts.

     

    The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 

    Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

     

    Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    a lot of rant from the OP ...

    .. so what if people want to consume content and move on ... it is what it is. There is no point in trying to change people's preference. It is the last thing that will happen on the internet.

    Dev should adapt to this.

    MANY MMOs are F2P, and many players don't stay long (average is 4-8 month). So what ... if the market is still big enough to spur development.

    Who has the power to say a game should last forever.

    If you look at the numbers, MMO, just in the US, is a $2.6 BILLION market. I doubt it is going to fold any time soon.

    http://www.newzoo.com/trend-reports/mmo-trend-report/

    And even if it folds, it is not like there aren't other entertainment.

  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member

    I think this Reddit post is off the mark. Do you guys really think that players don't know what's fun for them? This argument that the MMO community as a whole is 'doing it wrong' is complete nonsense. OPs complaint and proof is completely anecdotal, and ignores entirely the fact that the majority of gamers don't participate on the forums. All of the bitching and complaining that he is in turn bitching and complaining about, is created by a minority in the overall community.

    The standard MMO gamer plays the game he/she enjoys and logs out. The end. Games that are fun will make money. Games that are not fun will fail.

  • halflife25halflife25 Toronto, ONPosts: 737Member
    Originally posted by rygard49

    I think this Reddit post is off the mark. Do you guys really think that players don't know what's fun for them? This argument that the MMO community as a whole is 'doing it wrong' is complete nonsense. OPs complaint and proof is completely anecdotal, and ignores entirely the fact that the majority of gamers don't participate on the forums. All of the bitching and complaining that he is in turn bitching and complaining about, is created by a minority in the overall community.

    The standard MMO gamer plays the game he/she enjoys and logs out. The end. Games that are fun will make money. Games that are not fun will fail.

    That is what OP forgot to mention that over all forum users make a tiny percentage of player base world wide. Both fans and haters complain and moan on forums. Just targetting one side for failure of MMO genre is well ..idiotic.

    Fans and haters fight it out on daiyl basis and real issues of MMOS are lost somewhere in between that bickering. For example majority of so called haters on GW2 forums are more of an anti - fan then anti-GW2.

    Not that GW2 doesn't have its flaws but how many topics actually discuss  real issues? all i see is ego clashes between two sides. That is what forums are for and i think OP takes it too seriously.

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