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Why GW2 Lacks Longevity

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  • JimmydeanJimmydean Member UncommonPosts: 1,290
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by bcbully
    It is what it is. Fun to play at times. Just not much depth in systems or charachter development. 

    forgot the IMO.. although i guess that should always be implied.. although it's hard ot tell sometimes.

    Any time someone says something, it should be taken as their opinion unless they cite a source. It's the same reason why you should never use "In my opinion", or "I think" when you write. Obviously, or you wouldn't have written it!

  • BadaboomBadaboom Member UncommonPosts: 2,380
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    No MMO since WoW has managed to maintain or grow its player base after launch.  I doubt GW2 will be different.

    I don't think even WoW can be in that category right now.  Yes they still have a lot of subscribers, but their retention dropped over 1 million people.  The population is plumeting. 

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by bcbully
    It is what it is. Fun to play at times. Just not much depth in systems or charachter development. 

    forgot the IMO.. although i guess that should always be implied.. although it's hard ot tell sometimes.

    Any time someone says something, it should be taken as their opinion unless they cite a source. It's the same reason why you should never use "In my opinion", or "I think" when you write. Obviously, or you wouldn't have written it!

    i agree but many on here seem to think they talk for everyone.. strange I know..

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • RokurgeptaRokurgepta Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,136
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    No MMO since WoW has managed to maintain or grow its player base after launch.  I doubt GW2 will be different.

     Not true at all. DDO has more players now then at anytime near its launch.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Member Posts: 713
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Waaagh waaagh no raids!

    :p

    Your pretty cool.

    You make excellent points and really help contributee to a discussion.

    I would like to just say THANKS. Its people like you who make this website so informative.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,838
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    I agree too- It does lack longevity. Its not a full fledged MMORPG (more like an ARPG with Massive Online components). Its very casual...

     

    I've been calling it an mmo as well. Not much rpg especially as a pvpr. 

    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207
    Err not just eve (and that's pre wow anyway)

    Gw1 managed to grow its player base.
  • IzikIzik Member Posts: 111
    Originally posted by Rokurgepta
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    No MMO since WoW has managed to maintain or grow its player base after launch.  I doubt GW2 will be different.

     Not true at all. DDO has more players now then at anytime near its launch.

    Lotro as well since f2p

  • BadaboomBadaboom Member UncommonPosts: 2,380
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by Badaboom

     

    Yeah, I hope he does try to explain how GW2 is not an MMO and what is the depth it lacks?!  What are the elements that require this mystical "staying power?"   My guess is he would say there is minimal grouping required and maybe complain about lack of trinity.  What say you SaintPhillip?  I'm interested in your opinion, as it is so different from mine own. 

    Sure since your mind is already made up after what, 3 weeks of playing? I am sure your opinion (seing as how its so concrete) is the "correct" one.

    There is no "mystical" staying powetr and if you have read my responses I have explained (quite well IMO) why GW2 will do just fine and has already been an unmitigated success.

    And with the fanboy epidemic and utter blindness to anything which could be construed as "negative" having an honest discussion becomes near impossible-

    -Anyhow an RPG should require stats and have very dynamic ways in whuicjh to grow your character and become more powerful- There should be no "jack of all trades" toons and an interdependancy among specialized classes- And no, I do not speak of your "holy trinity" but of something which yhas existed since War gaming and then made mainstream with Dungeons and Dragons.

    In GW2 I am the healer/thief/tank and Dpser all in one. Its a Zerg when there IS grouping.

    Does this make it a bad game? No. But lets be honest here. You will never be known as a good "healer". "tank" whatever since everyone is essentially skilled to do everything themselves.

    -This doesnt make a "bad" game. But this takes away from "depth" and having your character stand out in any way.

    -I could go on and on but it matters little.

    A lot of words, but I don't see anything with substance aside from the fact you confirmed my assumption about the trinity.  Alright then.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Member Posts: 713
    Originally posted by Terrorizor

    All I can say is that if I get one tenth the amount of time in entertainment, as is devoted by haters trying to point out any small flaw that they can find with GW2, than it will deliver in spades.  

    I don't need the game to provide 8760 hours of quality entertainment in a year, and I feel sorry for the people that think "hardcore player"  is a positive term.  

    Thats what you (and many) are missing.

    Many of us "haters" (if you include me) love the game. We are  discussing faults we find in a game we are enjoying. 

    Look, I want there to be choices. Different types of games. I want a Sandbox game to play, a Theme Park game to Play, a casual Game to Play, a Strategy game to play, a card game to play. I do not want GW2 to be "another WOW" clone . But we can find fault and discuss it- Reasons we think the game isnt as good as it could be- Things we think it lacks.

    This does not mean we "hate" the game or want the game to be a "raid" game, etc, etc, etc..

  • ZuvielifyZuvielify Member Posts: 168
    Originally posted by Zeus.CM

    I appretiate your opinion.

    I'll add why I think GW2 has enough content to make me busy for at least a year:

    - 8 Challenging dungeons with 32 different experiences

    - over 1000 dynamic events. Arenanet stated they will be secretly adding new events to all zones

    - legendary weapons - they require a lot of effort and those who want to get prestige weapon skins with special effects has lots of work to do

    - exploration - tons of secret jumping puzzles

    - WvW - lots of fun, two week long matches, epic battles. This feature alone has tons of replayability.

    - sPvP - very adicting, almost DotA/League of Legends addicting, I can see myself spending lots of time here.

    - Non-linear story. To see all branches of one race story you need to create at least 20 characters of the same race. Multiply that by 5 races and you get tons of replayability

    - By the end of this content new expansions will come, each adding 1 year worth of content

    1. How long do you think you can grind those same 8 dungeons? I personally would last a month in WoW. In GW2, I don't know because I've heard the dungeons can be a miserable experience.

    2. Two things: One: Most of the 1000 you will do while leveling, and most you wont go back to. Two: How many of those 1000 are almost identical? I made it to 45 and I would say about 80% of the DEs I saw were very similar to others.

    3. Can't comment on this. I don't know what it entails. I imagine it's dungeon grind, which is typical MMO, so that's fine.

    4. Most of the exploring you also do while you level up. Once you're done, you're not going to go back. 

    5 and 6 aren't my cup o' tea. People who are playing for this and enjoying it will have a good time in GW2

    7. Are you really going to reroll to see all of the branches in the story? If you are, I am impressed at your ability to redo 97% of the game content to see 3%

    8. 1 year? questionable, imo. If it's the same as above, then I say 1 Month

     

    This is a post about longevity, not about how fun it is to level in GW2. Once you reach the end, and you will reach the end, most people will get bored and leave. Some will come back for the expansions

     

    Edit: I'm sorry if I sounded rude in this post. Your post was respectful, and I wish to be the same

  • MosesZDMosesZD Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
    Originally posted by Izik
    The biggest problem is people think GW2 is a pve game, when it's mainly about the PVP. If you don't like the pvp, this game will not have much lasting value for the average gamer.

     

    You only speak for yourself, one data point among millions.  

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by MosesZD
    Originally posted by Izik
    The biggest problem is people think GW2 is a pve game, when it's mainly about the PVP. If you don't like the pvp, this game will not have much lasting value for the average gamer.

     

    You only speak for yourself, one data point among millions.  

    yea as of right now I'd say this game is more about PVE than PVP but really just depends how you play.. content wise it has plenty of both but still way way more things to do and see on the PVE side.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • TerrorizorTerrorizor Member Posts: 326
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by Terrorizor

    All I can say is that if I get one tenth the amount of time in entertainment, as is devoted by haters trying to point out any small flaw that they can find with GW2, than it will deliver in spades.  

    I don't need the game to provide 8760 hours of quality entertainment in a year, and I feel sorry for the people that think "hardcore player"  is a positive term.  

    Thats what you (and many) are missing.

    Many of us "haters" (if you include me) love the game. We are  discussing faults we find in a game we are enjoying. 

    Look, I want there to be choices. Different types of games. I want a Sandbox game to play, a Theme Park game to Play, a casual Game to Play, a Strategy game to play, a card game to play. I do not want GW2 to be "another WOW" clone . But we can find fault and discuss it- Reasons we think the game isnt as good as it could be- Things we think it lacks.

    This does not mean we "hate" the game or want the game to be a "raid" game, etc, etc, etc..

    it was just an observation of haters in general, and not directed towards you or the OP.  Basically I just meant to say, if I can get as much time loving the game, as haters spend hating, than I will be very happy. 

  • MMOwandererMMOwanderer Member Posts: 415
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Waaagh waaagh no raids!

    :p

    I just want to point out something here. Not about the topic at hand in itself.

    Why do people think that whenever somebody talks about longevity or endgame or whatever, those players are saying "we needs raids and ultimate gear progression!"?

    Those features didn't actually prevent other mmorpgs from losing players and lacking a proper playerbase. However, that still doesn't mean that GW2, being a themepark, doesn't require some kind of endgame type activity to engage in, and the related rewards with it, to keep it's players around and therefore, produce income for the future.

    Nobody is actually screaming for raids, because ironically, most players don't want them. But, something must actually be there to replace after all. That's all people are talking about.

    EDIT: I can't discuss longevity from my experience, because i'm not playing :P

    EDIT 2: Also, i'm not saying GW2's endgame isn't viable at all, since, after all, i can't predict the future. Just pointing out that bringing this topic up for discussion doesn't mean a cry for raids, ok?

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Member UncommonPosts: 1,290
    Originally posted by MMOwanderer
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Waaagh waaagh no raids!

    :p

    I just want to point out something here. Not about the topic at hand in itself.

    Why do people think that whenever somebody talks about longevity or endgame or whatever, those players are saying "we needs raids and ultimate gear progression!"?

    Those features didn't actually prevent other mmorpgs from losing players and lacking a proper playerbase. However, that still doesn't mean that GW2, being a themepark, doesn't require soem kind fo endgame type activity to engage in, and the related rewards with it, to keep it's players around and therefore, produce income for the future.

    Nobody is actually screaming for raids, because ironically, most players don't want them. But, something must actually be there to replace after all.

    I agree, you can't just cut something out and call the problem fixed. It's like complaining about a sore wrist, and the doctor cutting your arm off to fix it. 

  • Marcus-Marcus- Member UncommonPosts: 1,010
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    I agree too- It does lack longevity. Its not a full fledged MMORPG (more like an ARPG with Massive Online components). Its very casual...

     

    I've been calling it an mmo as well. Not much rpg especially as a pvpr. 

    It feels an awful lot more like some of the original MMORPGs that I played (Neverwinter Nights, UO, DAoC, etc) than some of the more recent ones released.

     

    All a matter of perspective i guess.

     

    /shrug

  • Zeus.CMZeus.CM Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,788
    Originally posted by Zuvielify
    Originally posted by Zeus.CM

    I appretiate your opinion.

    I'll add why I think GW2 has enough content to make me busy for at least a year:

    - 8 Challenging dungeons with 32 different experiences

    - over 1000 dynamic events. Arenanet stated they will be secretly adding new events to all zones

    - legendary weapons - they require a lot of effort and those who want to get prestige weapon skins with special effects has lots of work to do

    - exploration - tons of secret jumping puzzles

    - WvW - lots of fun, two week long matches, epic battles. This feature alone has tons of replayability.

    - sPvP - very adicting, almost DotA/League of Legends addicting, I can see myself spending lots of time here.

    - Non-linear story. To see all branches of one race story you need to create at least 20 characters of the same race. Multiply that by 5 races and you get tons of replayability

    - By the end of this content new expansions will come, each adding 1 year worth of content

    1. How long do you think you can grind those same 8 dungeons? I personally would last a month in WoW. In GW2, I don't know because I've heard the dungeons can be a miserable experience.

    It is challenging yes. Doing it with pug can cause frustration. However, my guild has almost 500 people and I do everything with them. We use Team Speak and it's lots of fun.

    2. Two things: One: Most of the 1000 you will do while leveling, and most you wont go back to. Two: How many of those 1000 are almost identical? I made it to 45 and I would say about 80% of the DEs I saw were very similar to others.

    There's all sorts of things to do in DEs. From typical go kill boss, escort NPC, defend NPC, kill stuff, collect things, defend town, reclaim town, epic world boss events to playing snowball fight with kids, testing asura weapons and inventions, solving riddles... I don't know what else do you ecpect to do?

    3. Can't comment on this. I don't know what it entails. I imagine it's dungeon grind, which is typical MMO, so that's fine.

    It's far from that. Doing a dungeon to get a special item is only one part. Next part is exploring the world 100% to get 2 items that can be part of 2 legendary weapons. Next you need 2 max crafting skills. After that you need to forge 4 exotic weapons to get special exotic weapon that is used to craft legendary one, several other rare crafting materials collected around the world etc...

    4. Most of the exploring you also do while you level up. Once you're done, you're not going to go back. 

    While leveling to 80 I missed 70% of the content.

    5 and 6 aren't my cup o' tea. People who are playing for this and enjoying it will have a good time in GW2

    As I said PvP is the reason alone to play the game for a huge amount of time.

    7. Are you really going to reroll to see all of the branches in the story? If you are, I am impressed at your ability to redo 97% of the game content to see 3%

    Of course not. But I will make at least 5 characters with different race, because race story is comepletely different. 200 Hours per character to complete a story = 1000 hours, impressive enough.

    8. 1 year? questionable, imo. If it's the same as above, then I say 1 Month

     Did you play GW1? Each expansion was as large as the original game itself!

    This is a post about longevity, not about how fun it is to level in GW2. Once you reach the end, and you will reach the end, most people will get bored and leave. Some will come back for the expansions

     

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Member Posts: 713
    Originally posted by Terrorizor
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by Terrorizor

    All I can say is that if I get one tenth the amount of time in entertainment, as is devoted by haters trying to point out any small flaw that they can find with GW2, than it will deliver in spades.  

    I don't need the game to provide 8760 hours of quality entertainment in a year, and I feel sorry for the people that think "hardcore player"  is a positive term.  

    Thats what you (and many) are missing.

    Many of us "haters" (if you include me) love the game. We are  discussing faults we find in a game we are enjoying. 

    Look, I want there to be choices. Different types of games. I want a Sandbox game to play, a Theme Park game to Play, a casual Game to Play, a Strategy game to play, a card game to play. I do not want GW2 to be "another WOW" clone . But we can find fault and discuss it- Reasons we think the game isnt as good as it could be- Things we think it lacks.

    This does not mean we "hate" the game or want the game to be a "raid" game, etc, etc, etc..

    it was just an observation of haters in general, and not directed towards you or the OP.  Basically I just meant to say, if I can get as much time loving the game, as haters spend hating, than I will be very happy. 

    No I know =P

    Its just getting impossible to discuss anything without being attacked, labeled as a hater or told to go back to a "raid" game. A percieved negative towards GW2 is trreated as if you have insulted someones Mother or Race- Its getting pretty bad.

    Just the other night I was telling my Wife about a feature in GW2 which I thought was shallow- I locked the door, closed the blinds and curtains and whispered as quietly as I could...I wasnt even finished when the Curtains popped open and a midget screamed "You are wrong- Heres 88 reasons why...."

    The point is, this game is about 3 weeks old. I dont think it has longevity (but doesnt need it). This doesnt mean I "have no life" or am outside the ideals of the "average gamer" etc, etc... It means I find it too shallow and do not see what really happens at end game. WVW is kinda a zerg.

    Is still think its fun.

    But to go on and on about how I am wrong and there is X to do and Y to do , blah, blah- Games 3 weeks old. Tell me about all that in 3 months.

  • StanlyStankoStanlyStanko Member UncommonPosts: 270
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    No I know =P

    Its just getting impossible to discuss anything without being attacked, labeled as a hater or told to go back to a "raid" game. A percieved negative towards GW2 is trreated as if you have insulted someones Mother or Race- Its getting pretty bad.

    Just the other night I was telling my Wife about a feature in GW2 which I thought was shallow- I locked the door, closed the blinds and curtains and whispered as quietly as I could...I wasnt even finished when the Curtains popped open and a midget screamed "You are wrong- Heres 88 reasons why...."

    lol

  • Grimlock426Grimlock426 Member Posts: 159
    Originally posted by Izik
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    No MMO since WoW has managed to maintain or grow its player base after launch.  I doubt GW2 will be different.

    Eve

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/72392

    While technically Eve has, it's such a niche game as to hardly be relevant.  When you start near the bottom and grow your numbers to still just middle of the pack, and FAR from the kingpin, it's not technically that hard.  Yes though I will say Eve has grown their numbers.

  • MosesZDMosesZD Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
    Originally posted by Zuvielify
    Originally posted by Zeus.CM

    I appretiate your opinion.

    I'll add why I think GW2 has enough content to make me busy for at least a year:

    - 8 Challenging dungeons with 32 different experiences

    - over 1000 dynamic events. Arenanet stated they will be secretly adding new events to all zones

    - legendary weapons - they require a lot of effort and those who want to get prestige weapon skins with special effects has lots of work to do

    - exploration - tons of secret jumping puzzles

    - WvW - lots of fun, two week long matches, epic battles. This feature alone has tons of replayability.

    - sPvP - very adicting, almost DotA/League of Legends addicting, I can see myself spending lots of time here.

    - Non-linear story. To see all branches of one race story you need to create at least 20 characters of the same race. Multiply that by 5 races and you get tons of replayability

    - By the end of this content new expansions will come, each adding 1 year worth of content

    1. How long do you think you can grind those same 8 dungeons? I personally would last a month in WoW. In GW2, I don't know because I've heard the dungeons can be a miserable experience.

     

    So, in other words, you don't have a clue.   Only what some people have said.   I'll be honest, I have yet to do any of them.   But not one single person in my guild has expressed any negative opinions about the dungeons.

     

    2. Two things: One: Most of the 1000 you will do while leveling, and most you wont go back to. Two: How many of those 1000 are almost identical? I made it to 45 and I would say about 80% of the DEs I saw were very similar to others.

     

    Depending on how you count the archtypes there are only four or five different quests.   In literature there are only seven different story archetypes.   If you are trying to hold up any game to this weird, implicit standard in your 'point' you're really out in the weeds.

     

    Quests will always be similar.   Stories will always be similar.  What matters is the execution of them.   

     

    Let's face it, why are there so  many stinking medical/law/police TV shows?   Come on, they all have doctors/lawyers/cops and they all save patients/the innocent/arrest bad-guys...   Clearly, under your implicit premise nobody would watch a Medical show after Grey's Anatomy because it's 'all been done...;   

     

    Only, look, FIVE new medical shows this year: 

     

     

    It's the execution.  It's the novelty.  If only 'some' novelty.   That's what matters.   

     

    ...

    4. Most of the exploring you also do while you level up. Once you're done, you're not going to go back. 

     

    You can only speak for yourself to particulars.   But what we can say is that, in game, there are LOTS of people who are high-level going back to other zones.    And to say otherwise would be a lie.   So while YOU may not go back, clearly people are going back.

     

    5 and 6 aren't my cup o' tea. People who are playing for this and enjoying it will have a good time in GW2

    7. Are you really going to reroll to see all of the branches in the story? If you are, I am impressed at your ability to redo 97% of the game content to see 3%

    8. 1 year? questionable, imo. If it's the same as above, then I say 1 Month

     

    This is a post about longevity, not about how fun it is to level in GW2. Once you reach the end, and you will reach the end, most people will get bored and leave. Some will come back for the expansions

     

    Once again, you can only speak for yourself.   I will say the current evidence points to your wishful thinking rather than actual behaviors of the game's population.  

     

    How it will play out in the long-run...   We will see.  

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Originally posted by MosesZD

     

    Let's face it, why are there so  many stinking medical/law/police TV shows?   Come on, they all have doctors/lawyers/cops and they all save patients/the innocent/arrest bad-guys...   Clearly, under your implicit premise nobody would watch a Medical show after Grey's Anatomy because it's 'all been done...;   

     

    Only, look, FIVE new medical shows this year: 

    How dare you mention these Marcus Welby/Medical Center clones ;)

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • YakkinYakkin Member Posts: 919
    Originally posted by MMOwanderer

    I just want to point out something here. Not about the topic at hand in itself.

    Why do people think that whenever somebody talks about longevity or endgame or whatever, those players are saying "we needs raids and ultimate gear progression!"?

    Those features didn't actually prevent other mmorpgs from losing players and lacking a proper playerbase. However, that still doesn't mean that GW2, being a themepark, doesn't require some kind of endgame type activity to engage in, and the related rewards with it, to keep it's players around and therefore, produce income for the future.

    Nobody is actually screaming for raids, because ironically, most players don't want them. But, something must actually be there to replace after all. That's all people are talking about.

    EDIT: I can't discuss longevity from my experience, because i'm not playing :P

    EDIT 2: Also, i'm not saying GW2's endgame isn't viable at all, since, after all, i can't predict the future. Just pointing out that bringing this topic up for discussion doesn't mean a cry for raids, ok?

    Well...what would you suggest?

  • MosesZDMosesZD Member UncommonPosts: 1,361
    Originally posted by Grimlock426
    Originally posted by Izik
    Originally posted by sirphobos
    No MMO since WoW has managed to maintain or grow its player base after launch.  I doubt GW2 will be different.

    Eve

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/72392

    While technically Eve has, it's such a niche game as to hardly be relevant.  When you start near the bottom and grow your numbers to still just middle of the pack, and FAR from the kingpin, it's not technically that hard.  Yes though I will say Eve has grown their numbers.

     

    Sadly, the OP is entirely wrong in his opinoin of MMO population growth dynamics.   Eve was mentioned, but there are others.  LOTRO grew for three years.   Lineage (5 years) and Lineage II (2 years) grew for years.   Runescape grew for four years.   Aion grew for 18-months.  Everquest grew for four years as well.   Released in the middle of 1997, Ultima Online didn't peak until 2003.

     

    And some of those MMOs had three and four million subs at peak.   The smallest of them are UO (250K peak) and  EQ2 (350K peak).  And those are not considered 'niche' MMOs, but mainstream.  So I don't buy out on Eve being 'niche' seeing that it's larger than many 'mainstream' MMOs.

     

    And there are more.    You just have to do a little work on the subject.   The information is out there.

     

     

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