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Dungeons - The Lack of the Trinity

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  • voxnorvoxnor osMember Posts: 121
    Originally posted by saurus123
    Originally posted by voxnor
    Originally posted by Siphaed
    Originally posted by voxnor

    and what kind of player is that necro

    GW2 is not only about 1 weapon, you need to switch for variety of skills needed in different situations

     

    ofc you can play with staff only but you gimp your character and dont play it 100%

     

    So just to be clear - in your opinion, that dungeon fight was hard for us because we lacked AoE? So to do story mode of a dungeon without massive deaths, I need to study group composition?

  • LilanLilan Member UncommonPosts: 62
    There is a number of heal combos and life steal combos in this game learn to use them, along with CC combos like aoe blind, weakness and other damage reduceing effects
  • voxnorvoxnor osMember Posts: 121
    Originally posted by Lilan
    There is a number of heal combos and life steal combos in this game learn to use them, along with CC combos like aoe blind, weakness and other damage reduceing effects

     

    Please elaborate on how these combos help in the second fight of Twilight Arbror, as that has been our example thus far.

  • CyclopsSlayerCyclopsSlayer Member UncommonPosts: 532

    So far I have had limited experience in GW2 dungeons, only L42 Ranger. Only 3 full runs so far, 2x Ascelon(sic) and 1 CM. (2 aborted PUGs) But what I have seen so far is disappointing to say the least. (Been dungeoning and raiding since '99 and EQ1)

     

    Rezzing in Combat, sure everyone can do it, but unless you have an instant Rez the likelyhood of you getting it off are next to nil.

    Bosses are AoE happy, some more so than others, but some fights you cannot easily dodge due to the raw quantity of AoE circles all over the place. Standing still to attempt a Rez in the midst of the AoE is simple suicide. BTW, the circles are often very hard to see, and to watch for them you really cannot watch the boss at all, I am at max graphics settings and 40+ fps so it shouldn't be lag.

     

    Heals for all, nice in theory, but dropping a circle on the ground to AoE heal and then needing to run screaming away from the static heal area due to Mob and AoE mechanics seems rather silly at best.

     

    Even with voice comm the coordination needed for some fights is intense, Pugging with random people is almost a sure failure if they don't at least listen to comms. Nothing really new there, but the effect is amplified when you cannot count on a tank to grab and hold aggro.

  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon Member Posts: 1,066

    Despite ArenaNet's claim,they didn’t remove the holy trinity of tanking damage, healing damage, and dealing damage in Guild Wars 2. They consolidated it. Everyone can tank, everyone can heal, and everyone can nuke. An Elementalist can take a bunch of hits using skills like Mist Form, Rock Barrier, and Obsidian Flesh to mitigate damage. Just the same, a Warrior can equip a longbow and rain terror over an area.

    The holy trinity is alive and well in GW2.

  • k61977k61977 Member EpicPosts: 1,499

    I think you just answered your own problem.  You said roles, there are no roles except what you do in this.  We don't need to be defined by roles to play.  I respect your opinion but bascially it just seems you miss the trinity. 

    All three of the things you listed are what make the difficulty perfect for this game.  If someone is not doing each of those things they die.

    1) run in circles

    2) dodge correctly

    3) heal at the right time

    The absence of this in other mmo's it what led to boredom.  Just sitting looking at cast bar instead of what is going on.  I like the fact I never have to look at the cast bar.  I keep my eyes on the boss and surrounds.

    Like I said I don't believe that this game is for everyone.  It will end up a WvWvW or PvP in the end just like GW1.  I hope you can come around and find what you like about the game, but everyone has opinions and that is something no one can change.

     
  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon Member Posts: 1,066

    Despite ArenaNet's claim, they didn’t remove the holy trinity of tanking damage, healing damage, and dealing damage in Guild Wars 2. They consolidated it. Everyone can tank, everyone can heal, and everyone can nuke. An Elementalist can take a bunch of hits using skills like Mist Form, Rock Barrier, and Obsidian Flesh to mitigate damage. Just the same, a Warrior can equip a longbow and rain terror over an area.

    The holy trinity is alive and well in GW2.

  • RavenRaven Member UncommonPosts: 2,005

    After having done AC explorable and having chosen the hodgins path, I have a new respect for ANet when it comes to dungeon tuning, they have really managed to make pretty much every encounter need a lot of coordination and planning before you engage.

    I would recommend to anyone trying the "defend hodgins" event in AC explorable, if they think there is a lack of direction, need for coordination or planning in dungeons.

    That is all!

    Edit: Or if they think that they can just kite or tank anything and get a boss done, try this event.

    image

  • voxnorvoxnor osMember Posts: 121
    Originally posted by k61977

    I think you just answered your own problem.  You said roles, there are no roles except what you do in this.  We don't need to be defined by roles to play.  I respect your opinion but bascially it just seems you miss the trinity. 

    All three of the things you listed are what make the difficulty perfect for this game.  If someone is not doing each of those things they die.

    1) run in circles

    2) dodge correctly

    3) heal at the right time

    The absence of this in other mmo's it what led to boredom.  Just sitting looking at cast bar instead of what is going on.  I like the fact I never have to look at the cast bar.  I keep my eyes on the boss and surrounds.

    Like I said I don't believe that this game is for everyone.  It will end up a WvWvW or PvP in the end just like GW1.  I hope you can come around and find what you like about the game, but everyone has opinions and that is something no one can change.

     

     

    I really don't mean to be rude, but are you really suggesting that running circles, hitting the dodge key, and pressing your number 6 ability comprise the core skills needed for "strategy" in guild wars 2?

  • ace80kace80k Member UncommonPosts: 151

    You kind of have to wonder whether or not dungeons are just a ploy to encourage people to buy gold, lol. I mean, with all the money spent on repairs and using waypoints just to get to the dungeons, it all adds up, especially if your group isn't successful. Smart design for a business model I guess, a bit sneaky if you ask me though.

    Back on topic though, I miss the trinity tbh. Some find the old system boring and archaic, but trinity roles are what made mmorpg's rpg's.

  • voxnorvoxnor osMember Posts: 121
    Originally posted by Raven

    After having done AC explorable and having chosen the hodgins path, I have a new respect for ANet when it comes to dungeon tuning, they have really managed to make pretty much every encounter need a lot of coordination and planning before you engage.

    I would recommend to anyone trying the "defend hodgins" event in AC explorable, if they think there is a lack of direction, need for coordination or planning in dungeons.

    That is all!

    Edit: Or if they think that they can just kite or tank anything and get a boss done, try this event.

     

    I am not sure how many people are going to come in here and tell me to go do explorable mode. I was quite clear in all my posts that we are mainlly discussing story mode, and how every day gameplay of story mode goes with a PuG. Furthermore, how that gameplay can or cannot be scaled for difficulty.

  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337

    It's pretty obvious to those not in the honeymoon period that dungeoning in GW2 is a mess, which is no surprise really. You stuff 5 dps players in a dungeon with normal boss mechanics and what you get?

    1. Kitting
    2. Constant respawn fest
    3. Overgearing everything to make it meaningless.
    The game was made to be played (and be fun) for the PvP component and the open world events. Dungeons are an obvious weak point, but was a necessity to be included due to what is expected as a feature list from an mmorpg.
  • saurus123saurus123 Member UncommonPosts: 678
    Originally posted by voxnor
    Originally posted by Lilan
    There is a number of heal combos and life steal combos in this game learn to use them, along with CC combos like aoe blind, weakness and other damage reduceing effects

     

    Please elaborate on how these combos help in the second fight of Twilight Arbror, as that has been our example thus far.

    maybe this will help you

     

    heres a list

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

  • voxnorvoxnor osMember Posts: 121
    Originally posted by saurus123
    Originally posted by voxnor
    Originally posted by Lilan
    There is a number of heal combos and life steal combos in this game learn to use them, along with CC combos like aoe blind, weakness and other damage reduceing effects

     

    Please elaborate on how these combos help in the second fight of Twilight Arbror, as that has been our example thus far.

    maybe this will help you

     

    heres a list

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

     

    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though I know you were being sarcastic.

     

    I am WELL aware of what combo's are. I listed out the 5 characters in my group. Go ahead and break down for me how combo's would have made the fight better, and i'll explain how we either tried it or how it wouldn't work.

  • VoiidiinVoiidiin Member Posts: 817
    TA is the abolute worst Dungeon to cut your teeth on, AC is a better dungeon to start out in TA needs work from ANet i think.

    Lolipops !

  • jondifooljondifool Member UncommonPosts: 1,143
    Originally posted by voxnor

     

    The point to all this is the following:

     

    1. How can / will ANet make complex, engaging encounters without the trinity?
    2. Will they ever be able to shift the emphasis to good group play and away from good individual play without the trinity?
    3. Why am I dying in story mode? I'd like to go into story mode for the, you know, story.
     
     

    1. It is a myth that there is no trinity in GW2. ArenaNet specificly said that you could talk about a new trinity when describing the element in GW2 of support, control and damage. Wich is exsactly what you see in dungeouns. The fact is that there is no forced set trinity where players have to stick to 1 role each. But nothing prevents them from doing it. And for a unorganised group performance improve alot, when each member stick to a role they actual  are build around being good at. So the answer to the first question is ArenaNet don't make encounters without the trinity. (there is no "holy"trinity but thats another talk).

    2. The unique twist in GW2 is, that because of the way the weapons skills are setup and everybody can ress and so on, every one will have some control and support to add to a group. The performance increase even more when players don't stick to 1 role, but shift roles on the fly, but thats the next level of team play. A place an unorganised group have a hard time to achive. I claim that groups shifting roles on the fly is still operating in a trinity model, they are just optimising it even more than when having fixed roles. At any given moment there has to be an efficent use of Control and Support abilities while dishing out damage. Thats trinity combat. The way ArenaNet is putting emphasis on good group play is to make encounter hard enough that players can learn that there is an even more efficent way to get through them, than getting stuck in the old trinity mindset. But just like the saying that you can pull an aminal to the water but cant force it to drink, there is really no way to force player to learn this if they don't want to. And then encounter stay hard, because the swapping of roles that make them more manageble don't happend.

    3. Story mode where you are not dieing alot in is called personal story. Story mode in dungeouns is still dungeun difficulty. And dungeuns have to be hard in a situation where players can and will stick to a fixed trinity model, until they improve their group play.

     

  • azmundaiazmundai Member UncommonPosts: 1,419

    comes down to a simple question for me these days, as games are taking out traditional MMO features, what are they doing to replace them? as usual, the answer is basically, nothing.

    so you've removed the trinity, great concept.

    what have you replaced it with? Self heals and 2 invulnerability trinkets on a short coodown. Oh, and you brought back graveyard zerging .. /facepalm

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • RavenRaven Member UncommonPosts: 2,005
    If you mean only story mode then let's disregard the rest of your post story dungeons are pretty garbage they are there to be made once and then move on to explorable I don't know why anyone would want to do them more than once. Explorable has the right difficulty and feels like they managed to add a challenge that doesn't require trinity.

    Story is the weak point of this game except for tybalt everything else was garbage.

    image

  • UtukuMoonUtukuMoon Member Posts: 1,066
    Originally posted by azmundai

    comes down to a simple question for me these days, as games are taking out traditional MMO features, what are they doing to replace them? as usual, the answer is basically, nothing.

    so you've removed the trinity, great concept.

    what have you replaced it with? Self heals and 2 invulnerability trinkets on a short coodown. Oh, and you brought back graveyard zerging .. /facepalm

    Nah, credit where credits due,they done a few good things,this being one of them.

    All across MMO land players are heading to the..well read below..

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2012/09/13/four-guild-wars-2-recipes-you-can-craft-in-your-kitchen/

     

  • voxnorvoxnor osMember Posts: 121
    Originally posted by Raven
    If you mean only story mode then let's disregard the rest of your post story dungeons are pretty garbage they are there to be made once and then move on to explorable I don't know why anyone would want to do them more than once. Explorable has the right difficulty and feels like they managed to add a challenge that doesn't require trinity.

    Story is the weak point of this game except for tybalt everything else was garbage.

     

    What do you even mean here? I am fairly slow to frustrate but your post above.. I don't even get it. Because I want to talk about story mode, we should disregard my post?

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by voxnor

    1) "Nasty Surprises" - So, move when red circles come. Ok. "Forcing players... instead of standing still". So, move out of red ricles. Ok....

    2) "Learn to act like a team". We were acting like a team as much as any PuG will. Is your point that PuG's should not be able to complete story mode without several deaths?

    3) "Green gear is not good enough" - This is a level 50 dungeon. All of us were downscaled by at least 5 levels, giving us extra traits. Are you suggesting I gear up specifically for one PuG dungeon run at level 50?

    1. Nasty surprise is whenever something isnt going exactly as predicted. With no tanks that is commonplace, got a lot of them in GW1 as well.

    2. In storymode? Ok, that is a bit tough for a 50 dungeon and since I wasnt there it is kinda hard for me to tell you if you did any misstakes. A good PUG should be able to clear a story dungeon without dying.

    3. Listen now, blue and green gear is junk. Compare it to the 2 lowest rarity items in any other MMO, they are usually crap. I am indeed suggesting that you need better gear for a PUG dungeon. And you have played MMOs long enough to remeber when you needed good gear for a dungeon or should be prepared to die a lot.

    It is a huge step between green and gold. And gold gear is not so hard to get either, most guilds have crafters that do it for mats.

    And consider your build, a good build help as well. Speccing for survival instead of just max damage is usually a good idea for dungeons.

  • LilanLilan Member UncommonPosts: 62
    Originally posted by Sylvarii
    Originally posted by Lilan
    There is a number of heal combos and life steal combos in this game learn to use them, along with CC combos like aoe blind, weakness and other damage reduceing effects

    What this person really means OP is..

    Learn to play because your doing it wrong,we haven't seen this line before have we.

    Is their really heals combo's and life steal combo's and CC plus aoe blinds,weakness and last but not least,damage reducing effects?

    Wow! i really didn't know that they have wtf pawns skills like that in GW2,i'm logging on now to try them out,you should do the same OP,once you have i garantee you will pawns those instance dungeons.

    Thanks Lilan,ill put you on my xmas list.

     

     

    Hey you seam kinda bad, dont hate the game hate the players.

  • voxnorvoxnor osMember Posts: 121
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by voxnor

    1) "Nasty Surprises" - So, move when red circles come. Ok. "Forcing players... instead of standing still". So, move out of red ricles. Ok....

    2) "Learn to act like a team". We were acting like a team as much as any PuG will. Is your point that PuG's should not be able to complete story mode without several deaths?

    3) "Green gear is not good enough" - This is a level 50 dungeon. All of us were downscaled by at least 5 levels, giving us extra traits. Are you suggesting I gear up specifically for one PuG dungeon run at level 50?

    1. Nasty surprise is whenever something isnt going exactly as predicted. With no tanks that is commonplace, got a lot of them in GW1 as well.

    2. In storymode? Ok, that is a bit tough for a 50 dungeon and since I wasnt there it is kinda hard for me to tell you if you did any misstakes. A good PUG should be able to clear a story dungeon without dying.

    3. Listen now, blue and green gear is junk. Compare it to the 2 lowest rarity items in any other MMO, they are usually crap. I am indeed suggesting that you need better gear for a PUG dungeon. And you have played MMOs long enough to remeber when you needed good gear for a dungeon or should be prepared to die a lot.

    It is a huge step between green and gold. And gold gear is not so hard to get either, most guilds have crafters that do it for mats.

    And consider your build, a good build help as well. Speccing for survival instead of just max damage is usually a good idea for dungeons.

     

    1) "Nasty surprise is whenever something isn't going exactly as predicted" - Ok, so give me an example that doesn't involve more damage going out?

    2) "A good PUG should be able to claer a story dungeon without dying" - So your thoughts are that me and/or my group just sucked - thanks, thats constructive.

    3) "I am indeed suggesting that you need better gear for a PUG dungeon. And you have played MMO's long enough to remember when you needed good gear for a dungeon" - We'll have to agree to disagree here - in my decade of MMO's, I havn't found a need to gear up for a mid-level, non cap, 5 man content.

  • RavenRaven Member UncommonPosts: 2,005
    Sorry I can't quote on my phone. What I mean is in your post you present multiple concerns that go beyond story mode in fact you only mention story mode as a single point in your post after you show concern regarding dungeons interesting encounters and trinity. Even your thread title mentions dungeons and trinity.

    My premise is simply that story mode is garbage and a mob zerg there is no challenge and you are right. The other concerns I have addressed by suggesting that if you are looking for something that requires more cooperation and is not just kite and heal that you should try explorable but as you are only interested in story mode I can't really help you they are indeed shit.

    I hope they continue to focus on making more explorable challenges as I don't really care about the story as Italian there for me just to unlock explorable.

    image

  • voxnorvoxnor osMember Posts: 121
    Originally posted by Raven
    Sorry I can't quote on my phone. What I mean is in your post you present multiple concerns that go beyond story mode in fact you only mention story mode as a single point in your post after you show concern regarding dungeons interesting encounters and trinity. Even your thread title mentions dungeons and trinity.

    My premise is simply that story mode is garbage and a mob zerg there is no challenge and you are right. The other concerns I have addressed by suggesting that if you are looking for something that requires more cooperation and is not just kite and heal that you should try explorable but as you are only interested in story mode I can't really help you they are indeed shit.

    I hope they continue to focus on making more explorable challenges as I don't really care about the story as Italian there for me just to unlock explorable.

     

    Allright, i'll go along with this.

     

    You mention you have done explore mode content, and that it "requires more coopeartion and is not just kite and heal". In what ways does it require more cooporation? Can you describe maybe 2 or 3 fights, and the different ways in which they require more than kiting, healing, and resurrecting?

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