Gamers dont give inovation in games a fare chance, so any game with a new inovation tends to get flamed by the community because its new and unusual.
Gamers need to be more open-minded and embrace change. And because they currenlty dont as much as they should, developers try not to take chances leaving their games fate to a darker side of the gaming community.
You sir hit the nail on the head, beinbg in the industry this is what happens, and when a small company tries to do something different gamers run and hide or don't even give it a chance, look at The Secret World most refuse to play because of bad releases form funcom, in fact the game had a great release. and so far a great game, something different.
So many things wrong with this...
First, gamers have been crying out for innovation for 8 years. It ONLY comes from small dev teams that usually can't produce very good games, because they lack the manpower. AAA companies rarely do anything different.
TSW was NOT a good MMO and thats why it was rejected. You don't stick a monthly fee on something that is mostly singleplayer and instanced. It was NOT innovative. It was stylistically different, but thats about it.
There's millions of oldschool gamers who were used to innovation and want it back. But AAA companies are not delivering. GW2 is the first since Vanguard to do it.
Isn't part of the game industry just basically taking someone else's idea and tacking it on to your thing?
Albert Einstein - "Creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
All aphorisms are oversimplifications, of course. People who are creative for a paycheck do need to be aware of what the 'competition' is up to. Sometimes this even leads to innovation--"I bet I could do that better". And wholy original ideas aren't impossible, any time--they just don't always appear on demand.
I wonder how many of those companies think "How can we do it better?". Good ones will certainly but with resource/time restraints it seems like we are just getting a "we better add this feature to keep up even if we don't do it as well".
I think "how can we do it the same but cheaper" has been the main driving force of the genre since WoW. Worlds have been getting smaller, dungeons more linear, raids less and less people, more and more instances...
They even have a term for it: Overproduction. World of warcraft would be considered an over produced product at release is release was done today. It's kind of sad. Personally, I would love to see twice the world size at release.
And for those of us who thought WoW was small, feature and content lite, and pretty boring and too easy at launch.... the genre has only gotten worse.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Isn't part of the game industry just basically taking someone else's idea and tacking it on to your thing?
Albert Einstein - "Creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
All aphorisms are oversimplifications, of course. People who are creative for a paycheck do need to be aware of what the 'competition' is up to. Sometimes this even leads to innovation--"I bet I could do that better". And wholy original ideas aren't impossible, any time--they just don't always appear on demand.
I wonder how many of those companies think "How can we do it better?". Good ones will certainly but with resource/time restraints it seems like we are just getting a "we better add this feature to keep up even if we don't do it as well".
I think "how can we do it the same but cheaper" has been the main driving force of the genre since WoW. Worlds have been getting smaller, dungeons more linear, raids less and less people, more and more instances...
They even have a term for it: Overproduction. World of warcraft would be considered an over produced product at release is release was done today. It's kind of sad. Personally, I would love to see twice the world size at release.
And for those of us who thought WoW was small, feature and content lite, and pretty boring and too easy at launch.... the genre has only gotten worse.
I think you didn't get the point.
I got the point. I've been waiting a long time for anything worth a damn.
One of those risk vs reward type things.. Being innovative in this industry is a huge risk.. It's one of those things where you have to find a crack in the current stasis and break it open for the world to see it for what it is..
People will think you are crazy.. By the time anyone realizes what value the game actually has it is too late..
Fear of failure is why there are no real innovative mmo's imo.
I think devs can do the sure thing and put in little experiments in their game to see how it pays off. Smaller risk.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Seriously lets think about this for 1 second guys. First of all why does everything have to copy from wow, lets make it an example it took wow to introduce random dungeon finder, so other mmos ahead of it copies it. Why doesnt devs come up with their solution instead of every mmorpg after wow has to have same wow ranodm dungeon finder. There is no innovation, they just see what wow can come up with and copies it. Mark my words, cross realm areas with low pop might get copied as well.
Cash is why.
I hat all these "lets pontificate, on why MMOs are the way they are" threads.
WoW had 11 million active accts for how long?...lest see 11,000,000 X $15.00=165,000,000 dollars per month.
Any questions?
Can anyone see the mathematical error here?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
One of those risk vs reward type things.. Being innovative in this industry is a huge risk.. It's one of those things where you have to find a crack in the current stasis and break it open for the world to see it for what it is..
People will think you are crazy.. By the time anyone realizes what value the game actually has it is too late..
Fear of failure is why there are no real innovative mmo's imo.
I think you are right, problem is that we seen a lot of cases where the opposite is just as true. Making exactly the same crap as everyone else will also resault in failure or at best you get a game that makes a bit of money.
Investors just see Wows income and think that copying it will give them the same amount of money, and then they got shocked when Wows players stay in Wow.
I agree about WoW, but it has been that way for quite a few years. The Lesson that they can't repeat that success has not been learnt. So why is that? My theory is that to get major investment you have to pull investors in by saying it is like WoW. That is the only huge success to point to for a AAA titile. So no matter that the devs know the forumla does not work more than once, they keep tying themsleves to it for funding.
'Innovation' is apparently functionally identical to 'Hubris'.
Innovation is one of those pesky subjective words that those pesky pedants believe folks should come to terms on a common definition before attempting to discuss whether it exists in the MMORPG genre.
Okay, but fair warning from one of those pedants--I frequently bust out the Latin.
"Gamers need to be more open-minded and embrace change."--Dragonantis
But I'll toss you an "amen" there, D. While gamers preach how much innovation is needed, they also want every new game to be Just Like WoW too. Kind of damned if you do or damned if you don't. Half the market wants WoW. The other half wants anything but WoW.
Innovation's going to be ugly, for quite some time.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
If you attempt to create an MMO without drawing any inspiration whatsoever from any preceding MMO, your creation would cease to resemble an MMO at all.
Innovation just for innovation's sake isn't an ideal game developers should aspire to. Rather, they should draw inspiration from past successes, critique those games and its features, improve upon their systems, strive to eliminate their flaws and shortcomings, and then, yes, add some innovative features and mechanics into the mix.
Seriously lets think about this for 1 second guys. First of all why does everything have to copy from wow, lets make it an example it took wow to introduce random dungeon finder, so other mmos ahead of it copies it. Why doesnt devs come up with their solution instead of every mmorpg after wow has to have same wow ranodm dungeon finder. There is no innovation, they just see what wow can come up with and copies it. Mark my words, cross realm areas with low pop might get copied as well.
WOW is a money maker, they have some good ideas and people will follow suit very fast. But you also have to remember other games don't copy things from WOW, they all reuse ideas because they are well thought out and they work. To be honest WOW stole alot of its zone layout and content from Everquests original design. If you look at some of the older WOW content than take a walk through some of Everquest's content you will notice some similiar place. One off the top of my head is Crossroads in the barrens, sure if you have played wow before Cata you would remember before the split. Go to everquest and look for the crossroads, they are not only a very similiar towns, but the surrounding area is also much like it. I am sure Everquest got the idea from someone else too. The fact is it is hard to have an original idea.
If you attempt to create an MMO without drawing any inspiration whatsoever from any preceding MMO, your creation would cease to resemble an MMO at all.
Innovation just for innovation's sake isn't an ideal game developers should aspire to. Rather, they should draw inspiration from past successes, critique those games and its features, improve upon their systems, strive to eliminate their flaws and shortcomings, and then, yes, add some innovative features and mechanics into the mix.
I really do not care if a new game resembles old MMOs or not. The key is whether it is a fun game.
One gameplay, one game, one type of 'fun'. That is not a backward step; it is stepping into a box, closing the lid and banging the nails in.
MMO's have been forced into one mould as decided by markeing. A template where the only innovation is to make the game simpler.
I don't expect a game to be fun all the time, just some of the time. It challenges me to give me fun later. Delayed enjoyment, not instant gratification is the key. But both have their place in MMO's it is just getting the balance right.
Comments
So many things wrong with this...
First, gamers have been crying out for innovation for 8 years. It ONLY comes from small dev teams that usually can't produce very good games, because they lack the manpower. AAA companies rarely do anything different.
TSW was NOT a good MMO and thats why it was rejected. You don't stick a monthly fee on something that is mostly singleplayer and instanced. It was NOT innovative. It was stylistically different, but thats about it.
There's millions of oldschool gamers who were used to innovation and want it back. But AAA companies are not delivering. GW2 is the first since Vanguard to do it.
I think you didn't get the point.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I got the point. I've been waiting a long time for anything worth a damn.
I think devs can do the sure thing and put in little experiments in their game to see how it pays off. Smaller risk.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Can anyone see the mathematical error here?
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
I think you are right, problem is that we seen a lot of cases where the opposite is just as true. Making exactly the same crap as everyone else will also resault in failure or at best you get a game that makes a bit of money.
Investors just see Wows income and think that copying it will give them the same amount of money, and then they got shocked when Wows players stay in Wow.
Okay, but fair warning from one of those pedants--I frequently bust out the Latin.
"Gamers need to be more open-minded and embrace change."--Dragonantis
But I'll toss you an "amen" there, D. While gamers preach how much innovation is needed, they also want every new game to be Just Like WoW too. Kind of damned if you do or damned if you don't. Half the market wants WoW. The other half wants anything but WoW.
Innovation's going to be ugly, for quite some time.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
If you attempt to create an MMO without drawing any inspiration whatsoever from any preceding MMO, your creation would cease to resemble an MMO at all.
Innovation just for innovation's sake isn't an ideal game developers should aspire to. Rather, they should draw inspiration from past successes, critique those games and its features, improve upon their systems, strive to eliminate their flaws and shortcomings, and then, yes, add some innovative features and mechanics into the mix.
WOW is a money maker, they have some good ideas and people will follow suit very fast. But you also have to remember other games don't copy things from WOW, they all reuse ideas because they are well thought out and they work. To be honest WOW stole alot of its zone layout and content from Everquests original design. If you look at some of the older WOW content than take a walk through some of Everquest's content you will notice some similiar place. One off the top of my head is Crossroads in the barrens, sure if you have played wow before Cata you would remember before the split. Go to everquest and look for the crossroads, they are not only a very similiar towns, but the surrounding area is also much like it. I am sure Everquest got the idea from someone else too. The fact is it is hard to have an original idea.
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I really do not care if a new game resembles old MMOs or not. The key is whether it is a fun game.
One gameplay, one game, one type of 'fun'. That is not a backward step; it is stepping into a box, closing the lid and banging the nails in.
MMO's have been forced into one mould as decided by markeing. A template where the only innovation is to make the game simpler.
I don't expect a game to be fun all the time, just some of the time. It challenges me to give me fun later. Delayed enjoyment, not instant gratification is the key. But both have their place in MMO's it is just getting the balance right.