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A themepark game that requires a sandbox mentality... is this GW2's real problem?

VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon

First, I will say... loving the game more every day. I make no excuses or bones about that. I think it is actually pretty sublime.

 

But... some people are not getting it, obviously. Not the majority I think, everyone I see in game seems to be having a great time, but there are those that are finding it not for them.

Why?

My suspicion is, simply, that GW2 is a strange thing... it is a themepark that requires you to think like a sandbox, but the problem is the vast majority of players are unable to think like you need to to properly enjoy a sandbox.

They require close guidance. They require spoon feeding of a daily schedule. Too much choice confuses and frustrates them, at which point they start crying 'bored!!'.

 

They just don't get it... maybe the game is too subtle in what it does?

 

To enjoy the game properly, I think, you need to be able to let go of what you have been conditioned with over the last few years, but I suspect a lot of folks ultimately won't be able to do that.

 

Thoughts?

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Comments

  • MMOwandererMMOwanderer LisbonPosts: 415Member

    I don't understand. I played GW2 during the BWE. It didn't feel sandboxy to me.

    The only thing i knew was different in the way to experience as DE. Simply use the Hearts to guide you and then move on to find DE's. Don't use Hearts like quest hubs and move from each to each. So, i just explored to find them.

    But, i don't see what features the game contains that require a sandbox mentality. It playes very much like a themepark. The vistas, skill chalenges, hearts, etc are all pointed out on the map. I don't really get it OP. Sorry.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOwanderer

    I don't understand. I played GW2 during the BWE. It didn't feel sandboxy to me.

     

    Sorry, I will clarify.

    I didn't say it was a sandbox. I said it was a themepark.

    I said it required a sandbox mentallity in a lot of ways.... I guess this can be boiled down to self determination.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    I don't think so. I have never played a sandbox game that I can think of and don't seem to have a problem.

    Then again people vary so much on what is sandbox maybe I have according to some.

    I don't really think there is a problem. It is simply a game that has elements some will enjoy and others will hate.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • UmbroodUmbrood gbgPosts: 1,847Member Uncommon

    Not entirely sure what you are trying to say to be honest.

    In the first part you say that some people are not enjoying it, but the majority seems to.

    In the latter part the majority does NOT "get" it and needs to be spoonfed and they have the wrong mentality to enjoy the game?

    What majority is right?

    Hint:

    There are no right answer!

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Jerek_

    I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOwanderer

    I don't understand. I played GW2 during the BWE. It didn't feel sandboxy to me.

    The only thing i knew was different in the way to experience as DE. Simply use the Hearts to guide you and then move on to find DE's. Don't use Hearts like quest hubs and move from each to each. So, i just explored to find them.

    But, i don't see what features the game contains that require a sandbox mentality. It playes very much like a themepark. The vistas, skill chalenges, hearts, etc are all pointed out on the map. I don't really get it OP. Sorry.

    That is the problem in a nutshell.

    The people who don't get it are focusing almost entirely on hearts. It's been stated, re-emphasized, and demonstrated time & time again that hearts are not the focus of the game. They are a little something extra on the side. However, people are still treating them like that little exclamation point you find in other games.

    That's also where a majority of the complaints about EXP, content, and the game being 'the same old thing' come from. Part of what the OP is talking about, is the game favors, encourages, and rewards exploration. People have forgotten how to explore in themeparks, because there's typically no reason for it. You get absolutely nothing out of it. In GW2 you find hidden vendors, treasures, gathering hubs, jumping puzzles, and events that aren't pointed out on the map.

    If you look at your maps, you will find that all the icons on the map are placed in a way to encourage you to literally go everywhere in a zone. This is because they found that most players need incentives, and so they are there to give people a reason to go to the areas where they will likely stumble across something unexpected. However, some players are looking at those icons with blinders on. They are running towards a vista to the detriment of everything else. They aren't looking around, they aren't doing much of anything aside from filling in those icons. And then they complain that the game doesn't have enough content, or that they aren't lvling fast enough.

    The fastest way to lvl atm is either through crafting, dynamic events, and gathering. If you actually take off your blinders and look around, and actually go out and do a variety of different things in the game, you get more rewards than you know what to do with. That's the sandbox mentallity, the drive to go out and explore that themeparks typically lack. GW2 has tons of those types of experiences, even if it is done in such a way where you can't gank someone else's.

  • redman875redman875 illinois, ILPosts: 230Member

    So we have finally reached the " people who are not liking the game anymore are not playing it right" part of an overhyped games downfall?

     

    Yeah...playing this game like a sandbox is like playing darkfall as a quest hub game.  Even with a lot of imagination its just not going to work.

     

    Whats sandboxy about DE spam and pvp queues?

     

    I think the real problem was that the game was hailed as groundbreaking and revolutionary when its just another pvp based themepark.  Yeah taking out some things and added the old tied and failed DE mechanic (they never last past launch as entertainment, as was proven every time they are attempted in a game) seemed revolutionary...all they really ended up doing was taking out some longer term goals and removing and combining unique game roles so everyone is a range&melee DPS with some CC and some heals.

    Oh and you can active dodge which was suppose to make combat awesome but is really only functional for moving out of ground effects...just like every other game that uses active dodge with tab target combat.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,469Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by MMOwanderer

    I don't understand. I played GW2 during the BWE. It didn't feel sandboxy to me.

     

    Sorry, I will clarify.

    I didn't say it was a sandbox. I said it was a themepark.

    I said it required a sandbox mentallity in a lot of ways.... I guess this can be boiled down to self determination.

    That isn't very clear.  Are you trying to say that sand box games invented thinking?  It's just so odd.

  • NikkitaNikkita ParisPosts: 790Member
    I enjoy playing GW2 but GW2 replaced questing with heart events and suddenly it is required sandbox mentality? because i get puzzled everytime people try to assosciate word sandbox with GW2 if that is however true than Vanguard also requires sandbox mentality and maybe that is why that game isn't taking off even after repeated improvements?

    image


    Bite Me

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Calgary, ABPosts: 1,323Member

    How?

    There is only so much content. Once you complete it there is not much to do. The game has no sandbox features outside of WvW.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Umbrood

    Not entirely sure what you are trying to say to be honest.

    In the first part you say that some people are not enjoying it, but the majority seems to.

    In the latter part the majority does NOT "get" it and needs to be spoonfed and they have the wrong mentality to enjoy the game?

    What majority is right?

    Hint:

    There are no right answer!

     

    Sorry, I will clarify again.

    The majority of people playing it are enjoying it, it seems.

    The majority of the critics who don't enjoy it seem to be the second thing.

    Hope that clears that up :)

     

    (Though it does seem you are just focusing on this small confusion rather then constructively adding to the thread. I am not sure why that is...  but hey ho)

  • MMOwandererMMOwanderer LisbonPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by MMOwanderer

    I don't understand. I played GW2 during the BWE. It didn't feel sandboxy to me.

     

    Sorry, I will clarify.

    I didn't say it was a sandbox. I said it was a themepark.

    I said it required a sandbox mentallity in a lot of ways.... I guess this can be boiled down to self determination.

    I think using sandbox is going to create alot of problems, because after all, this means GW2 as too contain sandbox elements.

    If you don't mind, i sugest using the word "explorer". I think it migh fit with what you mean better. Here i agree. Like i said in my last post, Dynamic Events where created to be found as they happen, not to use the hearts as hubs. Also, while the points are clearly marked on the map,, there's still things to find, like hidden caves. Would this be better?

    Because, you see OP, there have been complaitns about a feeling of lack of direction. This is mostly when DE have a hard time making sense. IMO, this isn't a sandbox thing. It's just that events try to tell and story to give context to the actions you do. But, since you can end up catching one in the middl of the chain, or because of how zergy they get, etc, etc, it sometimes ends up feeling like random stuff with no coherent connections.

    Atleast, that's my experience from beta. Does your "sandbox mindset" come from comments from something else?

  • bobfishbobfish SouthamptonPosts: 1,688Member

    What the OP means, i think, is that GW2 doesn't lead you through everything you can or have to do in the game. It is a themepark that lets you pick what you want to do and when you want to do it.

     

    Not really sandbox mentality, but definitely unusual for a themepark. It still of course holds your hand all the time, but gives you a little bit of freedom to choose your own path.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    I understand what you mean OP, but I think your use of the two terms that everyone on this site has a different definition for is going to cause you grief :).

     

    Point is that GW2 is a themepark that is very enjoyable to play in a fairly undirected, nonlinear style...which is rare.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • TardcoreTardcore MinskPosts: 2,325Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    First, I will say... loving the game more every day. I make no excuses or bones about that. I think it is actually pretty sublime.

     

    But... some people are not getting it, obviously. Not the majority I think, everyone I see in game seems to be having a great time, but there are those that are finding it not for them.

    Why?

    My suspicion is, simply, that GW2 is a strange thing... it is a themepark that requires you to think like a sandbox, but the problem is the vast majority of players are unable to think like you need to to properly enjoy a sandbox.

    They require close guidance. They require spoon feeding of a daily schedule. Too much choice confuses and frustrates them, at which point they start crying 'bored!!'.

     

    They just don't get it... maybe the game is too subtle in what it does?

     

    To enjoy the game properly, I think, you need to be able to let go of what you have been conditioned with over the last few years, but I suspect a lot of folks ultimately won't be able to do that.

     

    Thoughts?

    Uh .. wut? I hate to tell you this but wandering the map from heart to heart and jumping into the occasional orange ring of "do-goodery" is not exactly fucking rocket surgery. If people are finding themselves unable to figure out what to do, they must be the same kind of person who has trouble going to the lavatory on their own. 

    Personally I feel the real issue is the PVE portion of the game feels like it lacks any real meaning and is repetitve as hell. The same complaint of every themepark that's come down the pike. While I think the free roaming questing of the game is a nice idea, the way A-nets put it together means all I see it as is the freedom to become bored wherever I like.

    "You call what Swan does acting? That's not acting. Its kissing and jumping and fighting and humping"

    image

    "Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "

  • eggy08eggy08 erie, PAPosts: 525Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by MMOwanderer

    I don't understand. I played GW2 during the BWE. It didn't feel sandboxy to me.

    The only thing i knew was different in the way to experience as DE. Simply use the Hearts to guide you and then move on to find DE's. Don't use Hearts like quest hubs and move from each to each. So, i just explored to find them.

    But, i don't see what features the game contains that require a sandbox mentality. It playes very much like a themepark. The vistas, skill chalenges, hearts, etc are all pointed out on the map. I don't really get it OP. Sorry.

    That is the problem in a nutshell.

    The people who don't get it are focusing almost entirely on hearts. It's been stated, re-emphasized, and demonstrated time & time again that hearts are not the focus of the game. They are a little something extra on the side. However, people are still treating them like that little exclamation point you find in other games.

    That's also where a majority of the complaints about EXP, content, and the game being 'the same old thing' come from. Part of what the OP is talking about, is the game favors, encourages, and rewards exploration. People have forgotten how to explore in themeparks, because there's typically no reason for it. You get absolutely nothing out of it. In GW2 you find hidden vendors, treasures, gathering hubs, jumping puzzles, and events that aren't pointed out on the map.

    If you look at your maps, you will find that all the icons on the map are placed in a way to encourage you to literally go everywhere in a zone. This is because they found that most players need incentives, and so they are there to give people a reason to go to the areas where they will likely stumble across something unexpected. However, some players are looking at those icons with blinders on. They are running towards a vista to the detriment of everything else. They aren't looking around, they aren't doing much of anything aside from filling in those icons. And then they complain that the game doesn't have enough content, or that they aren't lvling fast enough.

    The fastest way to lvl atm is either through crafting, dynamic events, and gathering. If you actually take off your blinders and look around, and actually go out and do a variety of different things in the game, you get more rewards than you know what to do with. That's the sandbox mentallity, the drive to go out and explore that themeparks typically lack. GW2 has tons of those types of experiences, even if it is done in such a way where you can't gank someone else's.

    But its not like hearts are basically useless either. For map complete you get some nice gear (maybe) and a bunch of crafting supplies, a shit ton of experience for completing and doing it all and a bunch of money. So they aren't that bad for leveling either. I would out level zones easy between full completion and crafting with hardly any DEs (usually soloable, ones around hearts to speed them up, or bosses). DEs aren't all this game has to offer for everyone. I personally hated them for the zergyness. Calling everyone who does hearts over DEs as people who follow an exclamation point is a bit harsh. I'd rather enjoy doing a solo heart than follow the zerg. Can't say thats particularly any better IMO.

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I understand what you mean OP, but I think your use of the two terms that everyone on this site has a different definition for is going to cause you grief :).

    Making a topic with either of those terms themepark or sandbox to try and strive a point pretty much turns the topic overall into a lost cause.

     

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,469Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Atlan99

    How?

    There is only so much content. Once you complete it there is not much to do. The game has no sandbox features outside of WvW.

    PVP isn't sandbox.  PVP is outside the themepark/sandbox debate.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Atlan99

    How?

    There is only so much content. Once you complete it there is not much to do. The game has no sandbox features outside of WvW.

     

     

    /sigh...

    Go back and read it again?

    I did not say it was a sandbox or had any sandbox elements.

    I said it required a the same type of general mentaillity (and that's a crucial word here) as a sandbox does... one of self determination, amongst other things.

  • Stx11Stx11 West Hills, CAPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by MMOwanderer

    I don't understand. I played GW2 during the BWE. It didn't feel sandboxy to me.

    The only thing i knew was different in the way to experience as DE. Simply use the Hearts to guide you and then move on to find DE's. Don't use Hearts like quest hubs and move from each to each. So, i just explored to find them.

    But, i don't see what features the game contains that require a sandbox mentality. It playes very much like a themepark. The vistas, skill chalenges, hearts, etc are all pointed out on the map. I don't really get it OP. Sorry.

    I'm not saying I completely agree, but I think the OP's point is that what you did, what I highlighted in red, requires more initiative than Wrath/Cata-era WoW players are able to handle. I'll agree that it definitely isn't what they are used to, but I think a good number can make the adjustment.

    I think GW highlights that "Virtual World" is a term separate from either Themepark or Sandbox. And to me GW2 is a Virtual World - a Themepark Virtual World in this case. And I do think there are some people struggling with that. They hit 100% on their Zone Completion and proclaim "I am done here!" or "why am I the wrong level to go on I finished?!?" and while the game can be played that way it wasn't designed with that as the optimal playstyle.

    People who just hang out, see what's going on, gather and explore and tackle whatever events come their way - they seem to be having an overall better experience in the game. They have no doubts or questions about what they'll be doing today, tomorrow, or when they are 80.

    And that mentality, that approach to an MMO, is something most Sandboxers can certainly relate to more than most "Wrath/Cata/SWTOR" Themeparkers can.

    I would have written and titled the OP differently, but I do get this sentiment.

  • NikkitaNikkita ParisPosts: 790Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    First, I will say... loving the game more every day. I make no excuses or bones about that. I think it is actually pretty sublime.

     

    But... some people are not getting it, obviously. Not the majority I think, everyone I see in game seems to be having a great time, but there are those that are finding it not for them.

    Why?

    My suspicion is, simply, that GW2 is a strange thing... it is a themepark that requires you to think like a sandbox, but the problem is the vast majority of players are unable to think like you need to to properly enjoy a sandbox.

    They require close guidance. They require spoon feeding of a daily schedule. Too much choice confuses and frustrates them, at which point they start crying 'bored!!'.

     

    They just don't get it... maybe the game is too subtle in what it does?

     

    To enjoy the game properly, I think, you need to be able to let go of what you have been conditioned with over the last few years, but I suspect a lot of folks ultimately won't be able to do that.

     

    Thoughts?

    This is the best part.

    The personal storyline leads you by nose from zone to zone. Fine you can ignore it all together and go level in other racial area but....vistas are pointed on your map so are PIO's and hearts. Scouts show up on your map who further point you towards heart events if they are not yet discovered . The only thing that don't show up on maps are DE's 

    So what exactly the choice here that intimidates people so much? you mean in skills? builds? because even in that department GW1 had lot more freedom.

    Too much exaggeration as usual.

    image


    Bite Me

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    I understand what you mean OP, but I think your use of the two terms that everyone on this site has a different definition for is going to cause you grief :).

    Making a topic with either of those terms themepark or sandbox to try and strive a point pretty much turns the topic overall into a lost cause.

     

     

    I am inclined to agree Wicked, sadly.

    I once again underestimate the forum with a topic and their ability to not just argue about terminology and semanitcs for 15 pages :/

    Using the term was a mistake. People are just reading what they want it to be saying, rather then what it is saying.

    Ahh wel, nm.

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Calgary, ABPosts: 1,323Member

    Wow.

    The amount of delusion in this thread is off the hook. People actually think GW2 is complicated and requires special intelligence to play. It's a casual mmo made for the casual player. It is not difficult at all and requires the least amount of effort to reach max level of an mmo I have played.

  • NikkitaNikkita ParisPosts: 790Member
    Originally posted by Tardcore
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    First, I will say... loving the game more every day. I make no excuses or bones about that. I think it is actually pretty sublime.

     

    But... some people are not getting it, obviously. Not the majority I think, everyone I see in game seems to be having a great time, but there are those that are finding it not for them.

    Why?

    My suspicion is, simply, that GW2 is a strange thing... it is a themepark that requires you to think like a sandbox, but the problem is the vast majority of players are unable to think like you need to to properly enjoy a sandbox.

    They require close guidance. They require spoon feeding of a daily schedule. Too much choice confuses and frustrates them, at which point they start crying 'bored!!'.

     

    They just don't get it... maybe the game is too subtle in what it does?

     

    To enjoy the game properly, I think, you need to be able to let go of what you have been conditioned with over the last few years, but I suspect a lot of folks ultimately won't be able to do that.

     

    Thoughts?

    Uh .. wut? I hate to tell you this but wandering the map from heart to heart and jumping into the occasional orange ring of "do-goodery" is not exactly fucking rocket surgery. If people are finding themselves unable to figure out what to do, they must be the same kind of person who has trouble going to the lavatory on their own. 

    Personally I feel the real issue is the PVE portion of the game feels like it lacks any real meaning and is repetitve as hell. The same complaint of every themepark that's come down the pike. While I think the free roaming questing of the game is a nice idea, the way A-nets put it together means all I see it as is the freedom to become bored wherever I like.

    "You call what Swan does acting? That's not acting. Its kissing and jumping and fighting and humping"

    Couldn't have said it better. I played EVE for 5 years and Ryzom for 3. And i didn't need to bring my 'sandbox' mentality in GW2 to enjoy it.

    image


    Bite Me

  • MMOwandererMMOwanderer LisbonPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Atlan99

    How?

    There is only so much content. Once you complete it there is not much to do. The game has no sandbox features outside of WvW.

     

     

    /sigh...

    Go back and read it again?

    I did not say it was a sandbox or had any sandbox elements.

    I said it required a the same type of general mentaillity (and that's a crucial word here) as a sandbox does...one of self determination, amongst other things.

    ? Self determination? Seriously, not hating, i have no what you're talking about.

    I think you really mean explorer because of the usual quest hub scenario.

    Let use TSW as an example, sinc ei just posted on those forums. During TSW beta, i saw alot of posts in different places that people had to backtrack to the hubs and because you can only have 1 main quests, i was horrible.

    However, i had read that the game as a "minihub" system and that item missions are used to guide you around the intire are in whatever direction you wish. Bu some people decided tos tick to the normal forumla and hated it for it.

    As i already said, GW2 is similar. But besides questing, i can't see what's different or sandboxy at all that requires a shift in mentality.

    Seriously, it can't be because people can choose which activity (pvp, wvw, crafting, etc) they can engage in, since, i'm sorry, gamers aren't so stupid they can't decide what hey want to play. And if you find said people, it's not GW2, it's the players. And this will happen with any game for them.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nikkita
    Originally posted by Vesavius

    First, I will say... loving the game more every day. I make no excuses or bones about that. I think it is actually pretty sublime.

     

    But... some people are not getting it, obviously. Not the majority I think, everyone I see in game seems to be having a great time, but there are those that are finding it not for them.

    Why?

    My suspicion is, simply, that GW2 is a strange thing... it is a themepark that requires you to think like a sandbox, but the problem is the vast majority of players are unable to think like you need to to properly enjoy a sandbox.

    They require close guidance. They require spoon feeding of a daily schedule. Too much choice confuses and frustrates them, at which point they start crying 'bored!!'.

     

    They just don't get it... maybe the game is too subtle in what it does?

     

    To enjoy the game properly, I think, you need to be able to let go of what you have been conditioned with over the last few years, but I suspect a lot of folks ultimately won't be able to do that.

     

    Thoughts?

    The personal storyline leads you by nose from zone to zone. Fine you can ignore it all together and go level in other racial area but....vistas are pointed on your map so are PIO's and hearts. Scouts show up on your map who further point you towards heart events if they are not yet discovered . The only thing that don't show up on maps are DE's 

    So what exactly the choice here that intimidates people so much?

     

    I have no idea, but I have heard it as a complaint that some folks are confused and feel lost and undirected.

    They would need to answer your last question I guess.

     

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