In GW2, the game does not end when you reach the level cap. There are many paths you can chart and ways you can play to progress your character. You can play with leveling as your goal, or you can play as you see fit and just level as a side effect. You are never finished with a zone, or a dungeon, or sPvP, or WvW; there is always value to content you have outleveled and you can chose to just go out and live in the world. Level scaling actually works and works well. Skill points are currency and you can continue to "level" your character after 80, with a skill point as the reward for each level's worth of XP, rather than an actual level increase.
The game's zones are very friendly to free roaming and you can ignore the linear and semi-linear elements of the game and still enjoy the play experience and progress. You could make an entire virtual career of hunting the very much in demand uncommon crafting mats that you only get from drops, or as a gatherer of gathering nodes, selling your take for profit. You can spend your entire GW2 experience playing WvW. You can even progress and make a name for yourself as a crafter. Like Dungeons? You could make a career of organizing and guiding dungeon runes for less experienced players.
These are all sandbox elements, if you actually understand what a sandbox is. The game also has theme-park elements and lacks some of the key elements that would tip the balance toward the sandbox side of the spectrum and yes, it is a spectrum, not a true/false black/white distinction.
This is the problem with discussions like this. Many people, usually those who haven't been around the genre from the early days, have a completely skewed idea of what theme park vs. sandbox actually means. It's become a stark dichotomy in their minds and failure to live up to their personal definition of an absolute sandbox becomes weak foundation for unfounded criticism.
GW2 is still a theme park in many ways, but it does offer a lot of "sand-boxy" elements. It's a lot less linear and a lot more free-roaming than most theme park MMOs. It is also the most supportive of game play "off the rails" of any AAA "theme park" MMO in quite some time. In fact, I think many people will find the game more enjoyable if they take the training wheels off ans spend more of their time doing the same thing, rather than trying to chart the most direct path through heart-tasks and game zones to reach the level cap.
I'll admit, breaking out of the old mentality established by highly linear, finite MMOs can be difficult. Intellectually, I knew that the game didn't end at the level cap, but when I hit 80, I sort of felt like "I had arrived" and wasn't sure what to do with myself. It took me a day or two of playing an alt to sort of clear my head and yesterday I spent several hours with my level 80 exploring a low level zone I hadn't seen very much of previously.
Level scaling worked, combat could still provide a challenge and I died a few times. (That takes some getting used to, coming from games where high level characters can one shot hoards of low level mobs). I was tentatively working on zone completion and near the end, I did actively seek out the few spots I had missed along the way, but for the most part I explored and hunted. I hunted for those increasingly valuable uncommon mats. Helped out some lowbies, did dynamic events, gathered from nodes, earned a few skill points and just had fun.
Now, I really feel free to just play the game however I feel like it. There are specific goals I can establish for my level 80 and prefered paths to achieve those things, but I can get around to thise things when ever the hell I feel like it. I actually feel like I have even more sand-boxy freedom in GW2 than in many free-roaming centric titles. Not only because the world is so massive, but because so much of the content remains relavent to me, no matter if I've experienced it before or I've "outleveled it".
The only content you actually consume adn expend are the most linear, theme-parky elements of the game. I can't repeat hearts. I can't repeat story elements. I can't re-aquire waypoints, vistas and PoIs I've already unlocked with a given character. However, guess what? Those 100% complete zones still have play value for me as a level 80. That's a clear indication of "sand-boxy-ness".
You cynics can wall yourselves off in your very narrow viewpoints and cling to some ill defined definition of an unachievable MMO sand box ideal. I don't care. I've found my fun sandbox and I don't care that it exists with in a theme-parky game.
The part where all of this falls flat is, the lack of totally emergent game-play. The only area that might offer something like that is WvW, however there's no roaming around those areas without expecting PVP. Which kills the idea of emergent game-play for a player like myself. This is what sets a sandbox apart from a themepark. Most of what you described I can do in any themepark be it AOC, SWTOR, etc (.IE ) do what I feel like doing, be it PVP, wander around, run a dungeon etc.. What all of these games lack is a dynamic community experience where you can create your own content, and/or gaming experience.
Themeparks are designed in a way that offers the player a finite amount of structured as well as governed by script content. A-net created a system where none of that content becomes redundant by level, however there's no system in place that allows for non-scripted emergent content. It just doesn't exist. Meaning all of that content is finite due to redundancy of repetition.
I play most games with a sandbox mentatlity, as free roaming games are the only type I fully enjoy outside of RTS's or something like M&B: warband's PVP. It just doesn't work in agmes not designed for it...GW2's content looks no more enticing to repeat than something like KOTOR's Dark or light paths. I play through that type of stuff once, I really don't care to repeat it again, it took years for me to see both sides of KOTOR's story simply because I'm not a huge fan of scripted content or games based around it.
The idea of this sandbox mentality you guys are referring to is lost on me when I really think about it, as I can walk around and smell the flowers in any game, or do this event rather than that one. I don't consider that making my own gaming experience. I just call that having a choice in content. Exploration for the sake of exploration is great in it's own right, but again, exploration doesn't mean sandbox to me. All that really is is an asset of world design. Not a sandbox does it make, it's just not as much like a corridor.
So outside of being able to repeat content I've already seen, re-explore areas I've seen, what is there to keep my inner sandboxer happy after I've done all of that?
I stopped buying MMO's for the most part, simply because the types of things that keep me busy do not make it into designs any longer, simply because the masses do not want co-dependent content or features. I've tried a few here and there and as games they're fine, but what I look for are systems that were the norm prior to WOW releasing. I'm surely not a new-comer to this genre, and I still do not see what you guys do here.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
imagine if you remove flame wars from mmorpg.com forums what is left ?
nothing.
good game or not is not important , what is important is that people continue to come here and share their experiences and that others will agree or not and make a big deal out of it. i think the more negative comments this game gets in this forum the better, the wow vs gw can not stop !!! the world keeps rotating.
on topic: its a new kind of game ... again , just as gw1 was , people in general dont like changes, it requieres the painful learning curve, for some this is the value of the game but for many will be hard to fit in, but i also think this people that are now complaining once they get it, will be the ones teaching others and calling them noobs, its a snowball that will not stop any time soon.
The problem I have with new mmo's is that they never make me feel like i'm part of an actual world. They always seem like a group of events or quests set up with the world built around them in a way to direct me through them. Although i've enjoyed GW2, I find it hard to be immersed when every few steps I have some event or heart popping up telling me to do this or do that, and yes, I could merely ignore them and continue on my way, but like I said it seems the world is built around them and everything else is just there.
What happened to the days where the mmo's gave you no direction at all and you just went out, found people and leveled? Personally those are the ones I always enjoyed the most, made me feel much more immersed and gave me a reason to want to explore the world, because it was my world. I used to love going off the beaten path looking for random bosses or new camps with potential for farming. Ones without maps were even better, because then you had to memorize where you going, and what was there. Along with that it made exploring more fun because you really had no idea what might be behind that mountain. And I know I could simply not use the map given, but if it's there its hard to ignore.
What sandbox mentality? Problem is it gets repetitive very fast. Wash cows one one area, fight centaurs, rebels or whatever in next. Instead of clicking NPC you just get those quests if you are close enough to them. Dynamic events are no better than Rift events imho. It's an OK game and it's pricing model adds a lot to it but sandbox mentality...lol.
Wrong, I'm not max level and I can run around doing stuff freely. In every other themepark including Rift I get very specifically told what to do, where, and how, in order to level up. Fact. Not to mention it's pointless to go back to lower level zones in games like Rift (or any other themepark pretty much) since you have out leveled the zone and all there is to do is trolling around.
Have you guys even played these games you comment on about?
Have you?
In Rift you can down-level to any level you like. You can take part in any Zone Event you like - Any Dungeon - Any Dynamic Content - Any Overland Adventure.
So, at least in the case of Rift, it's never pointless to go back to lower level zones. You get rewarded with things for your own actual level.
Trying to make an case for requiring any type of mentality to play a Video game is pretty weak. Using a buzzword term like sandbox that everyone has thier own definition for makes it preposterous.
A themebox game requires a sandpark mentality... is just as unfounded and rediculous.
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"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
if you went into GW2 with a 'sandbox' mentality, you probably wouldnt get past the character creation bit without giving up.. its a themepark game and it appeals to those with a themepark mentality.. if you can call it that, thing about sandbox games is, its not just the gameworlds etc, its also the character designs, and there are so many limits to character design, or i should say, choices, that for anyone whose only interest was sandbox games it would have no appeal at all. If GW2 does have problems, its not down to having any kind of sandbox mechanics driving the game, because there arent any.
GW2 has all three to various degrees, along side the linear and semi-linear elements.
No one would ever have questioned that Ultima Online had a lot of sandbox elements, in fact, it was considered very much a sandbox by MMO standards. By the standards, (never defined, only insinuated) of many in this thread, UO was just another theme park MMO!
Minecraft is clearly all sandbox, but it's the extreme at the end of the spectrum. A game can have features conducive for a free-form, open ended game experience along side linear and semi-linear structured content. Fantasy MMOs desinged as decidedly sandbox titles have all been failures, arguably because people who say thay want sand-box titles are not willing to make the concessions needed to allow a sandbox to be shared. (I won't go any deeper into those arguements here).
Like I said in my previous post, if you can't see it, it's your loss. I find GW2 very conducive to free-form, non-linear game play. I can play GW2 in much the same way I play games like Skyrim or Fallout 3, with the benefit of a uch larger world, populated by other players and providing more content and wroldspace than any solo free-form title can offer. Tyria is my sandbox. I'm now 175 hours in with no end in sight and I'm enjoying every minute of it and often find myself overwhelmed by the amount of freedom I have to chart my own path!
GW2 has all three to various degrees, along side the linear and semi-linear elements.
No one would ever have questioned that Ultima Online had a lot of sandbox elements, in fact, it was considered very much a sandbox by MMO standards. By the standards, (never defined, only insinuated) of many in this thread, UO was just another theme park MMO!
Minecraft is clearly all sandbox, but it's the extreme at the end of the spectrum. A game can have features conducive for a free-form, open ended game experience along side linear and semi-linear structured content. Fantasy MMOs desinged as decidedly sandbox titles have all been failures, arguably because people who say thay want sand-box titles are not willing to make the concessions needed to allow a sandbox to be shared. (I won't go any deeper into those arguements here).
Like I said in my previous post, if you can't see it, it's your loss. I find GW2 very conducive to free-form, non-linear game play. I can play GW2 in much the same way I play games like Skyrim or Fallout 3, with the benefit of a uch larger world, populated by other players and providing more content and wroldspace than any solo free-form title can offer. Tyria is my sandbox. I'm now 175 hours in with no end in sight and I'm enjoying every minute of it and often find myself overwhelmed by the amount of freedom I have to chart my own path!
non-linear =/= sandbox
Not to mention, GW2 isn't even that non-linear when you consider there's a very much clear-cut zone progression:
Players walk into a zone and are handed a check list of places to go and things to do. It doesn't get anymore linear than that. How is that not being spoon fed?
Originally posted by drakaena Players walk into a zone and are handed a check list of places to go and things to do. It doesn't get anymore linear than that. How is that not being spoon fed?
Never played the game much huh?
You don't actually HAVE to do that stuff. You can do that zone a bit, and move to another zone of apropriate level (yes there are usually atleast 3 zones that you can play in). You can decide to only level from DEs from all the zones. Or maybe some hearts in betwean. No one is telling you to STAY in that one single zone. You can decide to just craft away a level or two. How and where you level your character is completely up to you. The game just poins to you where you CAN do ti if you want to... So I can't see how this is sooo linear.
Originally posted by drakaena Players walk into a zone and are handed a check list of places to go and things to do. It doesn't get anymore linear than that. How is that not being spoon fed?
Never played the game much huh?
You don't actually HAVE to do that stuff. You can do that zone a bit, and move to another zone of apropriate level (yes there are usually atleast 3 zones that you can play in). You can decide to only level from DEs from all the zones. Or maybe some hearts in betwean. No one is telling you to STAY in that one single zone. You can decide to just craft away a level or two. How and where you level your character is completely up to you. The game just poins to you where you CAN do ti if you want to... So I can't see how this is sooo linear.
SWTOR gave you the option to level to 50 through battlegrounds and through space combat. Different venues to level up doesn't make the game any more sand-boxy or non-linear.
Originally posted by drakaena Players walk into a zone and are handed a check list of places to go and things to do. It doesn't get anymore linear than that. How is that not being spoon fed?
If all you do are the markered areas then you are missing a lot, not to mention that stuff is non-linear.
Players are rewarded for zone completions with loot and xp. Why wouldn't I finish the zone? What else is there to do? Jumping puzzles and dynamic events. I'm not saying it isn't fun. I'm saying its not a sandbox. Plenty of other themeparks gave players multiple leveling options. Doesn't mean its not straight forward.
Well now you people are mixing up "non-linear" and "sandboxy". First you said that GW2 is not non-linear and then in the next post you said it's not sandboxy...... Those 2 experssions aren't the same thing!
I never said it's sandboxy but I do say it is quite non-linear when it comes to how you level your character up... More so than many other MMOs out there...
The amount of delusion in this thread is off the hook. People actually think GW2 is complicated and requires special intelligence to play. It's a casual mmo made for the casual player. It is not difficult at all and requires the least amount of effort to reach max level of an mmo I have played.
Again, you have misunderstood.
No one said it was complicated. No one said it required intelligence. This all was your addition. You are arguing a point that you yourself have introduced.
That's twice in this thread you have failed to grasp what's being said.
Several people have insinutated that GW2 is too complicated for some players, that need to be held by the hand. Go back and read some of the posts.
As far as failing to grasp, you yourself have backed off your original post, because it made absolutely no sense. Maybe it is you that fails to grasp, what you are even trying to say.
Too complicated? No. But they DO seem to struggle to recognize it's NOT WoW or SWTOR or TSW or EQ or even Tera and can't seem to adapt. You'll see a lot of people bypassing harvesting nodes (outright doing a u-turn) when they see you go for them. They rush to 'tap/tag' a veteran to get the loot. They'll dodge roll out of a white circle or sit there an eat a red circle.
It's NOT a complicated game, but a lot of people just can't seem to grasp that it's different (enough) that you can't play it like it's one of the other games I mentioned. There HAVE been discussions in /M about needing a tank, or a healer.
It happens on these forums too. It's like people wander into a KFC and order a Big Mac and then are furious they didn't get what they ordered. It was kinda the same with SWTOR. SWTOR's great sin was wasn't that it was "WoW with Lightsabers" but that it wasn't ENOUGH "WoW with Lightsabers". There's this cognitive dissonance happening. People WANT something to be different than WoW, but when they experience something that does things slightly different than WoW, they throw a hissy because "that's not the way WoW does it" and then moments later will re-iterate the criticism that "it's not really any different than WoW".
And I'm unfairly picking on WoW here. There are people who've never played WoW that exhibit this behavior too.
I get what the OP was trying to say. As WickedJelly pointed out, he perhaps picked inappropriate terms for his audience.
For some people it seems it just can't be only a game. It has to be something deep and meaningful, an epiphany that only the chosen few are able to get.
It's a game .. nothing more and tell's us more about those that have to make it something deeper, than it does about those that don't " get it ".
Guess it's a bit like those that see the face of Christ in a slice of toast
Op you use the term sandbox when you mean non-linear...
Completely different things.
Skyrim and Stalker are non-linear, Minecraft is a sandbox.
With GW2 its designed in a way that people are guided from objective to objective. follow personal story, Talk to a scout, go to the hearts, take part in events as they pop up, follow the poi, vista & skill markers.
Once everything is done you move to the next zone...
As linear as linear could be tbh. No special mentalitiy required. The people that you think dont get it, actually do they just dont find it fun.
First, I will say... loving the game more every day. I make no excuses or bones about that. I think it is actually pretty sublime.
But... some people are not getting it, obviously. Not the majority I think, everyone I see in game seems to be having a great time, but there are those that are finding it not for them.
Why?
My suspicion is, simply, that GW2 is a strange thing... it is a themepark that requires you to think like a sandbox, but the problem is the vast majority of players are unable to think like you need to to properly enjoy a sandbox.
They require close guidance. They require spoon feeding of a daily schedule. Too much choice confuses and frustrates them, at which point they start crying 'bored!!'.
They just don't get it... maybe the game is too subtle in what it does?
To enjoy the game properly, I think, you need to be able to let go of what you have been conditioned with over the last few years, but I suspect a lot of folks ultimately won't be able to do that.
Thoughts?
Your need to read up on themepark. GW2 is the PERFECT example of a THEMEPARK MMO. Second Life is a Sandbox game. GW2 is NOT. Very few MMO's even come close.
GW2's Dynamic Events are like a Disney parade. And when you trigger a DE by pressing a button with a gigantic orange/white icon? That is the buttons on animatronic displays. Press the button and watch the scripted action happen.
AND NO, THIS IS NOT A BAD THING! Theme parks are fun and enjoyed by millions, you just got to stop being an elitist prick about it all.
And closed guidance? You are being told by scouts where the next quests are. Little numbers beside each quest and mob tell you if you are in the right area. Each area is neatly designated with recommended level range. How much more guidance do you want?
You are aware that although a real themepark has a map, you are free to roam anywhere in that themepark? GW2 is far more on rails. Or go ahead, head into a level 20-25 area as a lvl 5 and see how long it is before you are instant-killed by a "security" guard telling you first got to through the kiddy area before you can do the teen area.
For that matter, go ahead, do a solo story quest that doesn't belong to your solo story. Skip part of your solo story. Redo a solo story instance. Can't? My my, how on rails you are.
You can't even mix your own colors.
GW2 is a themepark. A fun themepark but a themepark. People who claim it is a sandbox either have no idea what they are talking about or are scared shitless of a game that really relies totally on player content.
Oh and a final shocker. If you ever get to play in a sandbox game and you are playing some other users created content... then you are STILL IN A FUCKING THEMEPARK! Just a user created themepark. But still a themepark.
ONLY when you as a player actively creat your own adventure alone or in a group as an active creator. THEN YOUR ARE IN A SANDBOX. Calvin and Hobber, they played in a sandbox. And Calvin would be on drugs in real life.
I don't really think you ever needed to clarify. It's already clear what you are saying:
It's a themepark game that requires players to approach it differently from other themepark games. And if one applies more of a sandbox mentality of having your own goals as apposed to being led around from one area to another (main quest aside) then one might find more enjoyment.
It's debatable if they will but I essentially agree with you.
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Comments
The part where all of this falls flat is, the lack of totally emergent game-play. The only area that might offer something like that is WvW, however there's no roaming around those areas without expecting PVP. Which kills the idea of emergent game-play for a player like myself. This is what sets a sandbox apart from a themepark. Most of what you described I can do in any themepark be it AOC, SWTOR, etc (.IE ) do what I feel like doing, be it PVP, wander around, run a dungeon etc.. What all of these games lack is a dynamic community experience where you can create your own content, and/or gaming experience.
Themeparks are designed in a way that offers the player a finite amount of structured as well as governed by script content. A-net created a system where none of that content becomes redundant by level, however there's no system in place that allows for non-scripted emergent content. It just doesn't exist. Meaning all of that content is finite due to redundancy of repetition.
I play most games with a sandbox mentatlity, as free roaming games are the only type I fully enjoy outside of RTS's or something like M&B: warband's PVP. It just doesn't work in agmes not designed for it...GW2's content looks no more enticing to repeat than something like KOTOR's Dark or light paths. I play through that type of stuff once, I really don't care to repeat it again, it took years for me to see both sides of KOTOR's story simply because I'm not a huge fan of scripted content or games based around it.
The idea of this sandbox mentality you guys are referring to is lost on me when I really think about it, as I can walk around and smell the flowers in any game, or do this event rather than that one. I don't consider that making my own gaming experience. I just call that having a choice in content. Exploration for the sake of exploration is great in it's own right, but again, exploration doesn't mean sandbox to me. All that really is is an asset of world design. Not a sandbox does it make, it's just not as much like a corridor.
So outside of being able to repeat content I've already seen, re-explore areas I've seen, what is there to keep my inner sandboxer happy after I've done all of that?
I stopped buying MMO's for the most part, simply because the types of things that keep me busy do not make it into designs any longer, simply because the masses do not want co-dependent content or features. I've tried a few here and there and as games they're fine, but what I look for are systems that were the norm prior to WOW releasing. I'm surely not a new-comer to this genre, and I still do not see what you guys do here.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
*
imagine if you remove flame wars from mmorpg.com forums what is left ?
nothing.
good game or not is not important , what is important is that people continue to come here and share their experiences and that others will agree or not and make a big deal out of it. i think the more negative comments this game gets in this forum the better, the wow vs gw can not stop !!! the world keeps rotating.
on topic: its a new kind of game ... again , just as gw1 was , people in general dont like changes, it requieres the painful learning curve, for some this is the value of the game but for many will be hard to fit in, but i also think this people that are now complaining once they get it, will be the ones teaching others and calling them noobs, its a snowball that will not stop any time soon.
Let the flames begin !
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The problem I have with new mmo's is that they never make me feel like i'm part of an actual world. They always seem like a group of events or quests set up with the world built around them in a way to direct me through them. Although i've enjoyed GW2, I find it hard to be immersed when every few steps I have some event or heart popping up telling me to do this or do that, and yes, I could merely ignore them and continue on my way, but like I said it seems the world is built around them and everything else is just there.
What happened to the days where the mmo's gave you no direction at all and you just went out, found people and leveled? Personally those are the ones I always enjoyed the most, made me feel much more immersed and gave me a reason to want to explore the world, because it was my world. I used to love going off the beaten path looking for random bosses or new camps with potential for farming. Ones without maps were even better, because then you had to memorize where you going, and what was there. Along with that it made exploring more fun because you really had no idea what might be behind that mountain. And I know I could simply not use the map given, but if it's there its hard to ignore.
Have you?
In Rift you can down-level to any level you like. You can take part in any Zone Event you like - Any Dungeon - Any Dynamic Content - Any Overland Adventure.
So, at least in the case of Rift, it's never pointless to go back to lower level zones. You get rewarded with things for your own actual level.
Any of this sounding familiar?
Carry on.. Just felt the need to clarify this.
Trying to make an case for requiring any type of mentality to play a Video game is pretty weak. Using a buzzword term like sandbox that everyone has thier own definition for makes it preposterous.
A themebox game requires a sandpark mentality... is just as unfounded and rediculous.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/@op not sure what you mean really.. GW2 just a themepark game and can be played like any other themepark game..
I am mainly a sandbox MMO player and i dont find anything about GW2 to be sandboxy..
I'd recommend this article for those still lost in these amorphous, custom tailored definitions of sandbox:
Open World, free-roaming and sandbox games
GW2 has all three to various degrees, along side the linear and semi-linear elements.
No one would ever have questioned that Ultima Online had a lot of sandbox elements, in fact, it was considered very much a sandbox by MMO standards. By the standards, (never defined, only insinuated) of many in this thread, UO was just another theme park MMO!
Minecraft is clearly all sandbox, but it's the extreme at the end of the spectrum. A game can have features conducive for a free-form, open ended game experience along side linear and semi-linear structured content. Fantasy MMOs desinged as decidedly sandbox titles have all been failures, arguably because people who say thay want sand-box titles are not willing to make the concessions needed to allow a sandbox to be shared. (I won't go any deeper into those arguements here).
Like I said in my previous post, if you can't see it, it's your loss. I find GW2 very conducive to free-form, non-linear game play. I can play GW2 in much the same way I play games like Skyrim or Fallout 3, with the benefit of a uch larger world, populated by other players and providing more content and wroldspace than any solo free-form title can offer. Tyria is my sandbox. I'm now 175 hours in with no end in sight and I'm enjoying every minute of it and often find myself overwhelmed by the amount of freedom I have to chart my own path!
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
non-linear =/= sandbox
Not to mention, GW2 isn't even that non-linear when you consider there's a very much clear-cut zone progression:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/Zone_Progression_(GW2)
But I guess everything seems non-linear and sandboxy now days compared to the more recent themepark on rails.
Never played the game much huh?
You don't actually HAVE to do that stuff. You can do that zone a bit, and move to another zone of apropriate level (yes there are usually atleast 3 zones that you can play in). You can decide to only level from DEs from all the zones. Or maybe some hearts in betwean. No one is telling you to STAY in that one single zone. You can decide to just craft away a level or two. How and where you level your character is completely up to you. The game just poins to you where you CAN do ti if you want to... So I can't see how this is sooo linear.
SWTOR gave you the option to level to 50 through battlegrounds and through space combat. Different venues to level up doesn't make the game any more sand-boxy or non-linear.
If all you do are the markered areas then you are missing a lot, not to mention that stuff is non-linear.
Well now you people are mixing up "non-linear" and "sandboxy". First you said that GW2 is not non-linear and then in the next post you said it's not sandboxy...... Those 2 experssions aren't the same thing!
I never said it's sandboxy but I do say it is quite non-linear when it comes to how you level your character up... More so than many other MMOs out there...
Too complicated? No. But they DO seem to struggle to recognize it's NOT WoW or SWTOR or TSW or EQ or even Tera and can't seem to adapt. You'll see a lot of people bypassing harvesting nodes (outright doing a u-turn) when they see you go for them. They rush to 'tap/tag' a veteran to get the loot. They'll dodge roll out of a white circle or sit there an eat a red circle.
It's NOT a complicated game, but a lot of people just can't seem to grasp that it's different (enough) that you can't play it like it's one of the other games I mentioned. There HAVE been discussions in /M about needing a tank, or a healer.
It happens on these forums too. It's like people wander into a KFC and order a Big Mac and then are furious they didn't get what they ordered. It was kinda the same with SWTOR. SWTOR's great sin was wasn't that it was "WoW with Lightsabers" but that it wasn't ENOUGH "WoW with Lightsabers". There's this cognitive dissonance happening. People WANT something to be different than WoW, but when they experience something that does things slightly different than WoW, they throw a hissy because "that's not the way WoW does it" and then moments later will re-iterate the criticism that "it's not really any different than WoW".
And I'm unfairly picking on WoW here. There are people who've never played WoW that exhibit this behavior too.
I get what the OP was trying to say. As WickedJelly pointed out, he perhaps picked inappropriate terms for his audience.
A honest and genuine question: Exactly what problem do you speak of?
What he is saying is: Those who are not enjoying the game the same way he is are playing it wrong.[mod edit]
The problem is that GW2 is far too easy because of the vast amount of zerging and the extremely poor scaling of the events.
For some people it seems it just can't be only a game. It has to be something deep and meaningful, an epiphany that only the chosen few are able to get.
It's a game .. nothing more and tell's us more about those that have to make it something deeper, than it does about those that don't " get it ".
Guess it's a bit like those that see the face of Christ in a slice of toast
Op you use the term sandbox when you mean non-linear...
Completely different things.
Skyrim and Stalker are non-linear, Minecraft is a sandbox.
With GW2 its designed in a way that people are guided from objective to objective. follow personal story, Talk to a scout, go to the hearts, take part in events as they pop up, follow the poi, vista & skill markers.
Once everything is done you move to the next zone...
As linear as linear could be tbh. No special mentalitiy required. The people that you think dont get it, actually do they just dont find it fun.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Your need to read up on themepark. GW2 is the PERFECT example of a THEMEPARK MMO. Second Life is a Sandbox game. GW2 is NOT. Very few MMO's even come close.
GW2's Dynamic Events are like a Disney parade. And when you trigger a DE by pressing a button with a gigantic orange/white icon? That is the buttons on animatronic displays. Press the button and watch the scripted action happen.
AND NO, THIS IS NOT A BAD THING! Theme parks are fun and enjoyed by millions, you just got to stop being an elitist prick about it all.
And closed guidance? You are being told by scouts where the next quests are. Little numbers beside each quest and mob tell you if you are in the right area. Each area is neatly designated with recommended level range. How much more guidance do you want?
You are aware that although a real themepark has a map, you are free to roam anywhere in that themepark? GW2 is far more on rails. Or go ahead, head into a level 20-25 area as a lvl 5 and see how long it is before you are instant-killed by a "security" guard telling you first got to through the kiddy area before you can do the teen area.
For that matter, go ahead, do a solo story quest that doesn't belong to your solo story. Skip part of your solo story. Redo a solo story instance. Can't? My my, how on rails you are.
You can't even mix your own colors.
GW2 is a themepark. A fun themepark but a themepark. People who claim it is a sandbox either have no idea what they are talking about or are scared shitless of a game that really relies totally on player content.
Oh and a final shocker. If you ever get to play in a sandbox game and you are playing some other users created content... then you are STILL IN A FUCKING THEMEPARK! Just a user created themepark. But still a themepark.
ONLY when you as a player actively creat your own adventure alone or in a group as an active creator. THEN YOUR ARE IN A SANDBOX. Calvin and Hobber, they played in a sandbox. And Calvin would be on drugs in real life.
I don't really think you ever needed to clarify. It's already clear what you are saying:
It's a themepark game that requires players to approach it differently from other themepark games. And if one applies more of a sandbox mentality of having your own goals as apposed to being led around from one area to another (main quest aside) then one might find more enjoyment.
It's debatable if they will but I essentially agree with you.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo