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ANet is the first company to really apply Blizzards model properly

FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon

Too many companies out there were simply cloning WOW.  That's a stupid, but simple approach.  And yet even Bioware couldn't even get their clone right.

 

The Blizzard model for WOW was to take the good things in previous MMOs and discard the rest.  Then add top notch art direction and game design.  Too many developers of clones only look at the big things in WOW, and forget about the small things that go into attracting and keeping players.

 

Arena Net looked at WOW and other MMOs and said what can we do to improve on them? 

 

1) A custom designed engine, which any new MMO developer should do anyway.  SWTOR used an existing one that's still clunky.

 

2) Make it less cartoony, but still highly stylized art direction.  This game is more of how LOTRO should have designed assets, if they didn't have such horrible art direction and an utter lack of imagination.  I'll assume Turbine artists are capable of much more than just grey and brown indoor environments. 

 

3) Remove quest hubs with tons of questgivers.  Also remove quest logs which invariably get full.  You never have to talk to a quest giver to get quests.  They just appear on screen when you are in the area.  This is a major plus. 

 

4) Improved Dynamic events and chains of events.  ANet certainly didn't invent them, but they sure made a lot of them enjoyable and engrossing

 

5) Remove the gear grind.  Considering how few people are hardcore raiders in any given MMO, this was a no brainer.

 

6) Non gear based PVP.  As a former competitive FPS player, I never understood why gear should impact PVP. 

 

7) No more filling bank slots with crafting mats.  This was pure win.  I have no idea if other games have done it before.

 

8) Amazing ambience.  The music is great and they put so much detail into the world.  Lots of interesting NPC conversations, background noises and little critters running around or flying.  This is one major area where SWTOR fell completely flat.  With their budget, I can only assume that they just weren't competent designers. 

 

9) Focus on a strong sense of community.  No more fighting for gathering nodes or tagging mobs.  You can all share in them.   Everyone gets their own drops so no fighting over who "needs" an item.  Anyone can rez a downed player.  I always say thanks when people res e and I always do it for them whenever possible.

 

10) World PVP generally means ganking.  Good riddance to that.

 

Future MMO developers should pay close attention to GW2 and everything, big and small, that works and doesn't work.

 

It remains to be seen if the lack of endgame raiding and no real gear grind progression will impact the games longevity.

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Comments

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon
    bump
  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    bump

     

    Why did you bump your thread?   

     

     

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    bump

     

    Why did you bump your thread?   

     

     

     Because no one paid any attention to him of course.

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

     

    5) Remove the gear grind.  Considering how few people are hardcore raiders in any given MMO, this was a no brainer.

     

    I always find it interesting when people say this. The gear grind is there in GW2. Even more than it ever was in WoW or previous MMORPGs. Do you understand the amount of time it takes to get full exotic lvl 80 gear and legendary weapon? And how much content you will be repeating ad nauseum in the process?

    Well some people will undoubtedly say, "You don't have to grind that though!"

    Fact of the matter is, Exotic gear is better than Rare gear. If you think you are going to beat Arah Explorable with your lvl 70 rare gear, good luck! 

    You didn't have to grind raid / dungeon gear in WoW or previous MMORPGs either. It's always been an option, GW2 doesn't do anything new in this respect. 

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Frodo as you can see from your other thread if you want lots of replies you need to be overly negative:):P but I do agree with most all the points made and glad a developer finnaly got it mostly right this time(for me at least) this is the big reason I feel this game will not fade into the shadows like so many before it.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • alkarionlogalkarionlog SPosts: 1,124Member Uncommon

    and now we can troll the moron who says blizzard model in a game who don't ever have anything with blizzard model at all :)

     

    or not really, reason i'm posting is slow day at work :)

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  • JetrpgJetrpg Whitehouse, OHPosts: 2,376Member
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

    7) No more filling bank slots with crafting mats.  This was pure win.  I have no idea if other games have done it before.

     

    I generally agree with your points.

    #7 here is pure win it makes gw2 best mmo for a while just for doing this alone, i swear thank you Anet.

     

    I disagree with the itemization point. Maybe no raids , but please i do wish items to matter, to be part of the game at 80. As of now they simply exist for no purpose.

    I would like a durability issue (you need to replace equipment after fighting for so long, maybe use the mystic forge to repair them at the expense of another item of = quality). This would keep aquiring equipment easy but give a reason to opbtian more, ie accoplish something.

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  • ArakaziArakazi OxfordPosts: 889Member
    I don't see much of WoW in GW2 and to be honest GW2 reminds me more of games like Fable 2 or Rift. Plus I#m a little fed up with people always comparing everything to WoW and besides, you could say that ANet looked at what Turbine did and come up with pretty much the same conclusion.
  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Virginia, VAPosts: 2,131Member
    To add a bit more to the speculation as for why not many posted on this thread initially: the color used for the text in  the opening post feels too uncomfortable to me that I didn't bother to read it, perhaps other people felt the same way too?
  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

     

    5) Remove the gear grind.  Considering how few people are hardcore raiders in any given MMO, this was a no brainer.

     

    I always find it interesting when people say this. The gear grind is there in GW2. Even more than it ever was in WoW or previous MMORPGs. Do you understand the amount of time it takes to get full exotic lvl 80 gear and legendary weapon? And how much content you will be repeating ad nauseum in the process?

    Well some people will undoubtedly say, "You don't have to grind that though!"

    Fact of the matter is, Exotic gear is better than Rare gear. If you think you are going to beat Arah Explorable with your lvl 70 rare gear, good luck! 

    You didn't have to grind raid / dungeon gear in WoW or previous MMORPGs either. It's always been an option, GW2 doesn't do anything new in this respect. 

     

    The big difference is all of the best gear is does not come from raiding or worse yet tiered raiding.

    Crafting, pvp, pve, dungeons, events, everything is viable for gear.

    This came outa the mysitc forge.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arakazi
    I don't see much of WoW in GW2 and to be honest GW2 reminds me more of games like Fable 2 or Rift. Plus I#m a little fed up with people always comparing everything to WoW and besides, you could say that ANet looked at what Turbine did and come up with pretty much the same conclusion.

    You clearly didn't read the post.  The cliff notes version is that the WOW model was to improve on the genre by keeping the good things and disposing of the bad.  Games like SWTOR chose to clone WOW rather than use the model Blizzard used.

  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon

    What I feel they did right was have a complete game with plenty to do, with all the features an mmo of 2012 should have. Most companies like Bioware with SWTOR thought they could get away with skimping on the UI, end game content, and having no fluff stuff to do except pvp battlegrounds and pve dungeons..and they thought they could go by their name alone, even though the worlds felt lifeless.

    Arenanet did a great job making the worlds feel alive. When someone says "Hey it's a brand new mmo, it can't have even half the content WoW has now, at release", I'll have to point them to GW2.

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  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Nice post and I completely agree.
  • Ethos86Ethos86 KortrijkPosts: 124Member

    Good topic, and you are right. You summed up the things I think are the strong points of GW2 very well.

     

    Obviously not everyone agrees, but I think the majority of actual players (not forum posters) will. Anyways, I'm back to the game now.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon
    I bumped it because it was knocked off the first page within 5 minutes yesterday and I wanted to wait for things to cool down.  I put a lot of thought into the post and felt the topic wasn't covered at all.
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    To add a bit more to the speculation as for why not many posted on this thread initially: the color used for the text in  the opening post feels too uncomfortable to me that I didn't bother to read it, perhaps other people felt the same way too?

    Noted.  I like using orange as a reply color, but for a long post it's a bad idea.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,611Member Uncommon

    I agree. Blizzard has been cherry-picking the best bits from other MMOs for years and polishing them up. Achievements for example, came from Warhammer Online first but Blizzard did it better... and now GW2 does it even better with the little chest rewards for zone completions etc.

     

    One thing you didn't mention that I think is also very meaningful: You get experience from gathering and crafting as other MMOs have also done. But here, the amount of XP you get these ways are comparable with what you get killing and questing--not just a token bit as others have done.

     

    You could easily level just exploring, gathering and crafting, fighting only what's camped on the node if you want to do it that way. Just like you can spend all your time in WvW and level there if you wish.

     

    I've never felt like the game is pulling me by the nose and making me play any particular way. Lots of freedom here.

  • Stx11Stx11 West Hills, CAPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by Arakazi
    I don't see much of WoW in GW2 and to be honest GW2 reminds me more of games like Fable 2 or Rift. Plus I#m a little fed up with people always comparing everything to WoW and besides, you could say that ANet looked at what Turbine did and come up with pretty much the same conclusion.

    You clearly didn't read the post.  The cliff notes version is that the WOW model was to improve on the genre by keeping the good things and disposing of the bad.  Games like SWTOR chose to clone WOW rather than use the model Blizzard used.

    No, no he didn't.

    And I agree almost 100% with what you said.

    Best part is the next company to do this can make completely different choices for a completely different game but so long as they choose wisely and come up with a truly holistic design we can get another winner.

    (I'm hoping ArcheAge turns out that way for people who prefer something more sandboxy)

    It would also be great for a company to do the same things Blizzard and ANet did but apply their analysis to UO, SWG, EVE, and even MO and DFO in order to create a really strong game for players who prefer that style of play.

    PS - Does this mean you are over your "burnout" phase? Just curious :)

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,917Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by Arakazi
    I don't see much of WoW in GW2 and to be honest GW2 reminds me more of games like Fable 2 or Rift. Plus I#m a little fed up with people always comparing everything to WoW and besides, you could say that ANet looked at what Turbine did and come up with pretty much the same conclusion.

    You clearly didn't read the post.  The cliff notes version is that the WOW model was to improve on the genre by keeping the good things and disposing of the bad.  Games like SWTOR chose to clone WOW rather than use the model Blizzard used.

     

    What Blizzard did is streamlined the genre for mass appeal by cherry picking mechanics, and did so on a solid engine with low hardware requirements, acceptable art, lots of content, and relatively few bugs or design flaws.

     

    I do think this was also the plan for GW2, and in many ways they hit the mark.  The largest flaw I see is engine performance.  WoW at release ran on just about anything.  GW2 performance doesn't seem to be affected much by GPU, but from what I've read it's slow on AMD CPUs.  I think it falls short of an A+++ rating until the engine gets resolved.


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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Rift did it first

    image

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member

    I'm having fun with GW2, great post.

     

     

    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

    Too many companies out there were simply cloning WOW.  That's a stupid, but simple approach.  And yet even Bioware couldn't even get their clone right.

    <SNIP>

    1) A custom designed engine, which any new MMO developer should do anyway.  SWTOR used an existing one that's still clunky.

    <SNIP>

    Bioware didn't get their clone right because they are no longer Bioware .. EA purchased Bioware some time ago, but still fool people into buying their games because EA continues to occasionally masquarade as "Bioware".

     

    The SWTOR engine blows chunks because EA bought a beta from Hero a long time ago, thinking they could code the rest.  Maybe it was to customize the engine, maybe it was to save money - who knows.  But the engine source was mutilated and Hero will not support it.  The only way to get more than 10-20 fps when standing around other people is to buy a $5,000 computer, which is what EA shills on the SWTOR forums are telling customers to do.  For shame EA. "It's not the game, it's your computer!" .. lolzwut? 

    GW2 plays at 60 fps on the same machine that used to get 10-20 fps on SWTOR (and also 1-2 fps or worse in SWTOR world PVP area Ilum) ... and GW2 has a helluva lot more real player interaction :-)

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  • KrytycalKrytycal Miami, FLPosts: 520Member
    Been saying this for a while. Gw2 is doing now what wow did almost a decade ago, which is why I think it's sad that people think gw2 is revolutionary and moving the genre forward. Sure, they changed enough things to not get called out as a clone, just like wow did back then. What Anet failed to realize is that it worked for wow because it managed to capture an audience that was brand new to know. That's not gonna work now because the average mmo player has gone through every variation of the wow recipe, and while gw2 is one of the most unique spins, it's still too familiar. Once the honeymoon is over a lot of players will realize they are playing generic fantasy mmo 82689, and that they have been there before. You can dress a chimp with a tuxedo, but at the end of the day it's still a chimp.
  • ArakaziArakazi OxfordPosts: 889Member
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by Arakazi
    I don't see much of WoW in GW2 and to be honest GW2 reminds me more of games like Fable 2 or Rift. Plus I#m a little fed up with people always comparing everything to WoW and besides, you could say that ANet looked at what Turbine did and come up with pretty much the same conclusion.

    You clearly didn't read the post.  The cliff notes version is that the WOW model was to improve on the genre by keeping the good things and disposing of the bad.  Games like SWTOR chose to clone WOW rather than use the model Blizzard used.

    I did read the thread and cast my mind back to when WoW was first released and I didn't think WoW was groundbreaking or even an evolution of the genre, just the most polished and accessible of all of the MMOs that where then available and i don't think GW2 is either as polished or accessible as WoW was when it was first released. I have seen too many bugs and problems during my week and a half of playing to honestly call it polished and the twitch based combat and the need for a good computer makes it less acessible than wow. I'm not exactly a WoW and to be honest I'm begining to hate that fucking game but it what it had in it's favour was at the time it was the only MMO that where everything was done to a high standard, it just came out at the right time.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Raleigh, NCPosts: 2,773Member
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

     

    5) Remove the gear grind.  Considering how few people are hardcore raiders in any given MMO, this was a no brainer.

     

    I always find it interesting when people say this. The gear grind is there in GW2. Even more than it ever was in WoW or previous MMORPGs. Do you understand the amount of time it takes to get full exotic lvl 80 gear and legendary weapon? And how much content you will be repeating ad nauseum in the process?

    Well some people will undoubtedly say, "You don't have to grind that though!"

    Fact of the matter is, Exotic gear is better than Rare gear. If you think you are going to beat Arah Explorable with your lvl 70 rare gear, good luck! 

    You didn't have to grind raid / dungeon gear in WoW or previous MMORPGs either. It's always been an option, GW2 doesn't do anything new in this respect. 

    he should of said mandatory gear grind, that is ssomething they removed.

    Dungeon gear was stronger from my understanding or it wasn't in previous MMOs?

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  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,205Member Uncommon

    This is a pretty good post Frodo.  I didn't see it after it got buried under all the emo dramallama.

    I read an early beta blog review that drew the same conclusion about ANet and the design of the game.  His point was that GW2 was more of a "wow clone" not in execution, but in its design philosophy.  It has actually progressed some design aspects of the themepark.

    I think TRION tried to do that with RIFT - improve on WoW, EQ2, etc - but didn't leave out enough of the cruft to really achieve that.  They kind of improved what WoW and EQ2 delivered but didn't really improve as much on the themepark and how it delivers content.

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