You are actually wrong at this cause we are talking about mmos and out of over 350+ mmos I tested and played through the years the only other mmo that one had somewhat the freedom to go and wander around do things partially was Wakfu and on the bottomline even that one was badly executed cause you have to grind your heart out to level and the crafting system has you crafting garbage 24/7 before you can end up crafting something decent at all.
You still didn't got rewarded the way GW 2 does and you were still stuck into killing low level mobs before you started greeding one certain type of mob till max level 24/7.
In GW2 in comparison, I went on a pet taming tour after the tutorial and I leveled from level 2 to 15+ alone by traveling through the areas to charm pets without having to do one single battle ever.
After that while still on the tour I gathered a few crafting materials which helped me to level 16 additionaly.
At the end of the day I was level 17,5 by having killed a total of like 7-9 mobs in overall and it was really fun to say the least.
Here's a level 85 WoW player with zero kills and zero Quest XP:
You are actually wrong at this cause we are talking about mmos and out of over 350+ mmos I tested and played through the years the only other mmo that one had somewhat the freedom to go and wander around do things partially was Wakfu and on the bottomline even that one was badly executed cause you have to grind your heart out to level and the crafting system has you crafting garbage 24/7 before you can end up crafting something decent at all.
You still didn't got rewarded the way GW 2 does and you were still stuck into killing low level mobs before you started greeding one certain type of mob till max level 24/7.
In GW2 in comparison, I went on a pet taming tour after the tutorial and I leveled from level 2 to 15+ alone by traveling through the areas to charm pets without having to do one single battle ever.
After that while still on the tour I gathered a few crafting materials which helped me to level 16 additionaly.
At the end of the day I was level 17,5 by having killed a total of like 7-9 mobs in overall and it was really fun to say the least.
Here's a level 85 WoW player with zero kills and zero Quest XP:
Obviously this is a rare situation - WoW iesn't designed for non-combat leveling. But just as obviously, it does reward non-combat activities.
I highly doubt he did no combat at all till level 85 cause by the xp curve and grind that WoW involves, it would have taken him years to reach that level(didn't checked the link btw). To each, it's own though and if he likes doing that then all the power to him.
Originally posted by Darkmoth
Originally posted by Kuinn
Originally posted by Wololo
What did GW2 Truly Innovate for this game? You cant say DE because Rift has those...
I was in Queen's Dale for a couple of days checking out different classes and saw how the bandits tried to poison the town waters, burn the water pipes, conquer a mill, saw a bull that had to be driven back to it's pen, centaurs attacking a fort etc etc. None of them succeeded because of the initial rush, but one morning when I logged and there was few people online the bandits actually HAD poisoned the water, and that resulted in the crop going bad and turning into some weird slime creatures.
What I see in Rift is random telly-ports appearing here and there pouring a bunch of mobs on people so they can kill them. Even Warhammer got the basics right better than Rift with the static PQ-events. GW2 can be called innovation since they have added and improved on the system.
When I type the word innovation into a translater it says "to better" or "to improve and upgrade upon" it does not say "make something awesome out of thin air that no one ever thought about before even in this time when everything has been already done in one shape or another".
But whether DE's are better than Rifts is simply a matter of perspective and taste. Personally, I like the Rifts better because they *aren't* storylines. Storylines can be great the first time you play them, but on subsequent play throughs they actually reduce immersion. You know you've talked to Sue the Apple Vendor 12 times, but she doesn't seem to remember.
Not to mention, when you have to create narrative content on that large a scale, quality suffers. I can name a couple of classic quests in WoW, the rest were mostly dreck. The same is true of GW2, do I really care that some chick had bigass spiders eating her apples? Who's bright idea was it to buy an apple orchard with lethal spiders in the trees? Didn't Sue and her husband get an inspection? Ask about the human bodies in cocoons, maybe?
Conversely, no matter how many time you run into a rift, it is consistent with the game lore of Rift. You've never seen that particular dimensional hole-thing before, and closing it is simply ongoing maintenance of a weakened/tattered reality.
Back to your main point, there is a difference between innovation and "something you like". In some ways DEs are more innovative than Rifts (they are dynamic and branching), but in other ways rifts are more innovative (they do away with the thin veneer of faux narrative). It's not that GW2's systems aren't innovative (they are), but that innovative systems aren't really that unusual in MMOs.
Case in point: SWTOR. As derivative as much of the game is, the game's voiceover content is actually groundbreaking, clearly different from any previous MMO. The space combat was innovative. They were the first to give each MMO player his own personal story-world. Yet any number of people will tell you that SWTOR brought nothing new to the genre, simply because they didn't find the game fun.
I think that you just described a heart quest as a DE which is something totally different since a heart quest is repeatable the whole time and has only its 2-3 chains that repeat no matter if you win or lose them (though actually you can't really lose them).
The DEs on the other hand are having a different outcome and a other chain if you lose them instead if winning.
Below is the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word innovate, I have posted this becasue most people here dont seem to now what the word means.
Definition of innovate verb: make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas
Origin: mid 16th century: from Latin innovat- 'renewed, altered', from the verb innovare, from in- 'into' + novare 'make new'
By this definition GW2 has a lot of inovation.
Example
rifts in rift spawned in random areas and added mobs that you killed then they closed. they did effect the area they covered but not very much.
In DE's you get things like, bandits attack water pipes one stage, if you stop them its over if you don't you get to defend workers trying to repair pipes stage two. Sometimes they poison water sometimes you have to get a cure.
Some areas get altered until the next cycle of DE's change them back depending on user participation.
Below is the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word innovate, I have posted this becasue most people here dont seem to now what the word means.
Definition of innovate verb: make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas
Origin: mid 16th century: from Latin innovat- 'renewed, altered', from the verb innovare, from in- 'into' + novare 'make new'
By this definition GW2 has a lot of inovation.
Example
rifts in rift spawned in random areas and added mobs that you killed then they closed. they did effect the area they covered but not very much.
In DE's you get things like, bandits attack water pipes one stage, if you stop them its over if you don't you get to defend workers trying to repair pipes stage two. Sometimes they poison water sometimes you have to get a cure.
Some areas get altered until the next cycle of DE's change them back depending on user participation.
This to me is major innovation.
I like rift so I am not having a go at it
Copying an existing system and changing the fluff a bit is innovation? I hadn't read the dictionary in a long time so it's clear without googling the meaning of every single word we use, heaven forbid, we might technically misuse a word as the connotations in modern language is slightly skewed from the textbook definition. Who knew I guess i should call Samsung, they can counter sue Apple now as their Galaxy is by a 500 year old definition innovative, so surely not a complete rip-off. They will be pleased
The hang-up here is the word, not the sentiment. A 16th centure definition of a word is clearly exactly the same now as it was then, right? I mean, by this logic language never evolves...ever
The OP most likely means "What did they do thats new", the semantics are astounding
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
Obviously this is a rare situation - WoW iesn't designed for non-combat leveling. But just as obviously, it does reward non-combat activities.
I highly doubt he did no combat at all till level 85 cause by the xp curve and grind that WoW involves, it would have taken him years to reach that level(didn't checked the link btw). To each, it's own though and if he likes doing that then all the power to him.
Why would you doubt it before checking? His stats page clearly shows he's got 525 in 2 gathering skills and zero kills. Your impression of WoW's mechanics is clearly mistaken, although to be fair mine was also - I would have said it was impossible before I saw this guy. WoW rewards non-combat activity.
Originally posted by Darkmoth
But whether DE's are better than Rifts is simply a matter of perspective and taste. Personally, I like the Rifts better because they *aren't* storylines. Storylines can be great the first time you play them, but on subsequent play throughs they actually reduce immersion. You know you've talked to Sue the Apple Vendor 12 times, but she doesn't seem to remember.
Not to mention, when you have to create narrative content on that large a scale, quality suffers. I can name a couple of classic quests in WoW, the rest were mostly dreck. The same is true of GW2, do I really care that some chick had bigass spiders eating her apples? Who's bright idea was it to buy an apple orchard with lethal spiders in the trees? Didn't Sue and her husband get an inspection? Ask about the human bodies in cocoons, maybe?
Conversely, no matter how many time you run into a rift, it is consistent with the game lore of Rift. You've never seen that particular dimensional hole-thing before, and closing it is simply ongoing maintenance of a weakened/tattered reality.
Back to your main point, there is a difference between innovation and "something you like". In some ways DEs are more innovative than Rifts (they are dynamic and branching), but in other ways rifts are more innovative (they do away with the thin veneer of faux narrative). It's not that GW2's systems aren't innovative (they are), but that innovative systems aren't really that unusual in MMOs.
Case in point: SWTOR. As derivative as much of the game is, the game's voiceover content is actually groundbreaking, clearly different from any previous MMO. The space combat was innovative. They were the first to give each MMO player his own personal story-world. Yet any number of people will tell you that SWTOR brought nothing new to the genre, simply because they didn't find the game fun.
I think that you just described a heart quest as a DE which is something totally different since a heart quest is repeatable the whole time and has only its 2-3 chains that repeat no matter if you win or lose them (though actually you can't really lose them).
The DEs on the other hand are having a different outcome and a other chain if you lose them instead if winning.
They're not really different because both have a fixed number of outcomes, and over time you will see each over and over. I've won and lost the Asuran "protect the labs from Inquest" DEs several times. On the human side I have saved a farm from bandits and also failed to save it - at which point the Bandits mill around until you get a force strong enough to push them back into the cave.
It's certainly innovative, but I think the word you're looking for is inventive. Guild Wars didn't create much on its own merit, but did a great job changing and detailing previously made design concepts into something that feels new, at least to some people.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
While im sure many people will reason as to what GW2 changed or improved, it's just dancing around the question...in answer to the question, it has no true innovation whatsoever.
Everything in GW2 has been done before in one guise or another.
Innovation is not the same thing as invention, just to remind you. Your last sentence basically says GW2 didn't INVENT anything. Well no one was contesting that point, that's true.
Below is the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word innovate, I have posted this becasue most people here dont seem to now what the word means.
Definition of innovate verb: make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas
Origin: mid 16th century: from Latin innovat- 'renewed, altered', from the verb innovare, from in- 'into' + novare 'make new'
By this definition GW2 has a lot of inovation.
Example
rifts in rift spawned in random areas and added mobs that you killed then they closed. they did effect the area they covered but not very much.
In DE's you get things like, bandits attack water pipes one stage, if you stop them its over if you don't you get to defend workers trying to repair pipes stage two. Sometimes they poison water sometimes you have to get a cure.
Some areas get altered until the next cycle of DE's change them back depending on user participation.
This to me is major innovation.
I like rift so I am not having a go at it
Copying an existing system and changing the fluff a bit is innovation? I hadn't read the dictionary in a long time so it's clear without googling the meaning of every single word we use, heaven forbid, we might technically misuse a word as the connotations in modern language is slightly skewed from the textbook definition. Who knew I guess i should call Samsung, they can counter sue Apple now as their Galaxy is by a 500 year old definition innovative, so surely not a complete rip-off. They will be pleased
The hang-up here is the word, not the sentiment. A 16th centure definition of a word is clearly exactly the same now as it was then, right? I mean, by this logic language never evolves...ever
The OP most likely means "What did they do thats new", the semantics are astounding
The word and its meaning still apply , your oppinion is that it changed the fluff a bit, in my oppion DE';s have a lot more in them than a simple rift.
language does evovle and dictionarys change to reflect this, in this case the word has not changed. you are thinking of invention not inovation. If the op meant "What did they do thats new" then why did he not say that and stop half of the problems with this post?
If you dont think GW2 inovated very much that is fine, I think they did thats just me but they did innovate.
Originally posted by Nadia GW2 improved on existing features found in different mmos -- and brought it into the same game but better
example:
autoscaling your level within the entire gameworld
past mmos only allowed for this in some situations -- but not all the time
most mmos borrow tho, WOW had nothing that didnt already exist in past games
Sorry you keep using this in all your post as being innovative,improved on ect.
Everquest 2 had mentoring years before.
Rift has auto scaling when joining public groups and when joining dungeons. in the open world as well.
It also lets you mentor yourself anywhere in the world if you choose to. Or anyone in a group if you choose to.
I dont want a game auto mentoring me because the zone im in. I would rather do it myself Doesnt seem realistic beng a high lvl and bam all a sudden your a whimp now because of the place you went? If i want to go back and farm i dont want to be high lvl and be getting aggro from lvl 10 mobs while im gathering Unless i want that to happen.
You never feel really powerful. Go gather nodes and get attacked at lvl 60 in a lvl 10 zone no thanks! Unless i want that it doesnt happen in rift i prefer it that way. Same with everquest 2 back when i played it.
Rift also has planar attunement after reaching lvl cap wich would takes months and months to cap out. Wich is why mentoring in rift is nice because you still get experience even after level 50 .
So dont go saying this is something gw2 started. Rift already has and had this . When the expansion comes out that triples the world size with everquest 2 type housing i think ill be happy but only time will tell.
Now if gw2 has an option to turn off auto mentor that wouldnt be so bad. I havent had the chance to play it , Id just like to point out gw2 did not improve on this or innovate this.
Below is the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word innovate, I have posted this becasue most people here dont seem to now what the word means.
Definition of innovate verb: make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas
Origin: mid 16th century: from Latin innovat- 'renewed, altered', from the verb innovare, from in- 'into' + novare 'make new'
By this definition GW2 has a lot of inovation.
Example
rifts in rift spawned in random areas and added mobs that you killed then they closed. they did effect the area they covered but not very much.
In DE's you get things like, bandits attack water pipes one stage, if you stop them its over if you don't you get to defend workers trying to repair pipes stage two. Sometimes they poison water sometimes you have to get a cure.
Some areas get altered until the next cycle of DE's change them back depending on user participation.
This to me is major innovation.
I like rift so I am not having a go at it
Your right about rifts having little impact but invasions , they dont go away , They take over towns with hundreds of mobs until they are taken care of , killing surrounding npc, and anything in there path . Mobs also travel the zones , set up small outposts to defend ect. . Innovative
Below is the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word innovate, I have posted this becasue most people here dont seem to now what the word means.
Definition of innovate verb: make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas
Origin: mid 16th century: from Latin innovat- 'renewed, altered', from the verb innovare, from in- 'into' + novare 'make new'
By this definition GW2 has a lot of inovation.
Example
rifts in rift spawned in random areas and added mobs that you killed then they closed. they did effect the area they covered but not very much.
In DE's you get things like, bandits attack water pipes one stage, if you stop them its over if you don't you get to defend workers trying to repair pipes stage two. Sometimes they poison water sometimes you have to get a cure.
Some areas get altered until the next cycle of DE's change them back depending on user participation.
This to me is major innovation.
I like rift so I am not having a go at it
Your right about rifts having little impact but invasions , they dont go away , They take over towns with hundreds of mobs until they are taken care of , killing surrounding npc, and anything in there path . Mobs also attack other mobs . Innovative
I never said rifts were not innovative, I did say that I liked rift. I was saying that DE's in GW2 are innovative aswell and I like the way they are done.
I only used the refferance to rift to show that there is a lot more to a DE than people are saying.
Both games have a lot of inovation its just up to the each person to find the inovation they prefer and play that.
Yea i wasnt flaming ya bro just remembered how many times i wanted to explore fortunes shore and it was overun by fire creatures, that pissed me off ..Then had to get the community together and take back the town but it was fun killing them elites.
Every feature I can think of has been improved with innovation.
Innovation != Invention
Improved?
Explain what has been improved please. Mentoring wasnt invented here so it cant = innovation for gw2 or rift.
If you mean improving mentoring move on, rift already has auto scale mentoring , self mentoring, group mentoring, xp while mentored after lvl cap. dungeon que as a mentor.Rifts scale to the party involved as well.
maybe they did improve on the random events making the quest like but certainly not on the mentoring.
Now rift will innovate housing with controllable weather effects, inside and outside placement of objects. With resizing of all objects.
Nice that a game can continue after release to improve with innovation. Adding new things all the time instead of just content.
Why would you doubt it before checking? His stats page clearly shows he's got 525 in 2 gathering skills and zero kills. Your impression of WoW's mechanics is clearly mistaken, although to be fair mine was also - I would have said it was impossible before I saw this guy. WoW rewards non-combat activity.
They're not really different because both have a fixed number of outcomes, and over time you will see each over and over. I've won and lost the Asuran "protect the labs from Inquest" DEs several times. On the human side I have saved a farm from bandits and also failed to save it - at which point the Bandits mill around until you get a force strong enough to push them back into the cave.
Well then they obviously changed things in WoW because gathering gave you no character xp in the beginning (CB, OP and the first year at least).
Anyway, when it comes to the DEs it depends on their length in chains cause I saw DEs that had at least 3 chains in them.
People also mostly tend to immediately leave after a DE is "done" (the current chain) while people that tend to partially follow the npc to see what's next in store can be surprised.
That's a thing that a heart npc never does and never will since its setup like the old linear type of quests that has 2 tasks that end and restart again.
The only difference between the hearts and the old quest systems is not only the tasks themselves but also the fact that your progress on them gets saved so if you leave in the middle of it, the next time you go back you see the progress bar saved your approach from the last time.
The DEs doesn't work that way and you might manage to be involved in some or not at all.
Originally posted by Wololo I guess its just as I thought then, GW2 didnt actually innovate anything, they just re-wrapped every feature from existing games that they found nice.
Having your second post in the thread answer your honest question pretty much negates any honesty involved.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
I guess not many players noticed this. But I think that one major innovation is the way they roll out updates. The server doesn't go down for that. You log out, restart the client, which then downloads the update and start playing again. Which other MMO does this? (Except for Guild Wars 1 which isn't supposed to be a MMO).
The dynamic events are also an improvement upon WAR and Rift. The way they are chained based on outcome in GW2, is the next step imo and therefore an improvement.
The autoscaling down to the lvl of the area, is not the same as mentoring, but a whole different gamedesign. It gets rid of the unrealistic superpowered hero idea that you have in other high lvl MMO's. Where you suddenly can 1 shot mobs that are grey to you after some playing and makes low lvl areas trivial and not interesting to go back anymore. It even gives you chance on loot of your own lvl.
I guess not many players noticed this. But I think that one major innovation is the way they roll out updates. The server doesn't go down for that. You log out, restart the client, which then downloads the update and start playing again. Which other MMO does this? (Except for Guild Wars 1 which isn't supposed to be a MMO).
The dynamic events are also an improvement upon WAR and Rift. The way they are chained based on outcome in GW2, is the next step imo and therefore an improvement.
The autoscaling down to the lvl of the area, is not the same as mentoring, but a whole different gamedesign. It gets rid of the unrealistic superpowered hero idea that you have in other high lvl MMO's. Where you suddenly can 1 shot mobs that are grey to you after some playing and makes low lvl areas trivial and not interesting to go back anymore. It even gives you chance on loot of your own lvl.
Ok well when i hit lvl 80 in a game i want to go back to lower lvl areas and onshot stuff im lvl 80 for gods sake.
This takes the realism out of a game for me anyway. If i start out in a small peasant town with little rats or golbin's to kill and come back after ive become a hero of this world i want to show what ive become and FEEL powerful . I dont wanna be some lvl 10 hero in a zone just because im in a zone thats lvl 10 . Not realistic to me .
Why shouldnt i be able to one shot a rat or goblin thats lvl 10 when ive just finished killing a huge boss at end game who is massively powerful. cmon man.
Self mentoring is there for a reason if ya wanna go that route mentor yourself to lvl 10 .
hate to keep brining up rift but its the only game i can give examples from . When i join a public group in a lower lvl area in rift it auto scales me to there level and drops rewards of my actual lvl as well. This is all being done already ..
SAying its unrealistic to not be able to kill a lvl 10 creature at lvl 70-80 in one shot is UNREALISTIC to me lol. You made the journey have grown into a hero of your world but shouldnt be able to kill rat or boar because your in a lower lvl area of the world your in ?
Originally posted by IPolygon @Fire, I haven't played Rift so I cannot answer that. However they did improve a lot of features that gave me headache in tradtitional MMOs like WoW.
Yea and im not saying any game is bad hell i dont like the end game grind of rift , but like you i do like some features of it that are better than wow's also. Then again there is some things in rift i dont like. Rift is not the best game im sure but i do like how the devs are bringing in housing , add adding things all the time .So ive decided to stick with it . To me every game has its good and its bad. I just dont care for it when others act like things were never done before ect.
I guess not many players noticed this. But I think that one major innovation is the way they roll out updates. The server doesn't go down for that. You log out, restart the client, which then downloads the update and start playing again. Which other MMO does this? (Except for Guild Wars 1 which isn't supposed to be a MMO).
The dynamic events are also an improvement upon WAR and Rift. The way they are chained based on outcome in GW2, is the next step imo and therefore an improvement.
The autoscaling down to the lvl of the area, is not the same as mentoring, but a whole different gamedesign. It gets rid of the unrealistic superpowered hero idea that you have in other high lvl MMO's. Where you suddenly can 1 shot mobs that are grey to you after some playing and makes low lvl areas trivial and not interesting to go back anymore. It even gives you chance on loot of your own lvl.
Ok well when i hit lvl 80 in a game i want to go back to lower lvl areas and onshot stuff im lvl 80 for gods sake.
This takes the realism out of a game for me anyway. If i start out in a small peasant town with little rats or golbin's to kill and come back after ive become a hero of this world i want to show what ive become and FEEL powerful . I dont wanna be some lvl 10 hero in a zone just because im in a zone thats lvl 10 . Not realistic to me .
Why shouldnt i be able to one shot a rat or goblin thats lvl 10 when ive just finished killing a huge boss at end game who is massively powerful. cmon man.
Self mentoring is there for a reason if ya wanna go that route mentor yourself to lvl 10 .
hate to keep brining up rift but its the only game i can give examples from . When i join a public group in a lower lvl area in rift it auto scales me to there level and drops rewards of my actual lvl as well. This is all being done already ..
SAying its unrealistic to not be able to kill a lvl 10 creature at lvl 70-80 in one shot is UNREALISTIC to me lol. You made the journey have grown into a hero of your world but shouldnt be able to kill rat or boar because your in a lower lvl area of the world your in ?
There is a difference. You have more abilities, you have slightly higher stats. So you do feel powerful. But they can still kill you if you just fight toe to toe.
All the lore in a MMO stops making sense if you could go back at high lvl and suddenly can 1 shot mobs (so yeah like in most lvl based MMO's).
Why would there be such a power difference between bandits based on geographic location? This is one reason why you autoscale down in GW2.
I guess not many players noticed this. But I think that one major innovation is the way they roll out updates. The server doesn't go down for that. You log out, restart the client, which then downloads the update and start playing again. Which other MMO does this? (Except for Guild Wars 1 which isn't supposed to be a MMO).
The dynamic events are also an improvement upon WAR and Rift. The way they are chained based on outcome in GW2, is the next step imo and therefore an improvement.
The autoscaling down to the lvl of the area, is not the same as mentoring, but a whole different gamedesign. It gets rid of the unrealistic superpowered hero idea that you have in other high lvl MMO's. Where you suddenly can 1 shot mobs that are grey to you after some playing and makes low lvl areas trivial and not interesting to go back anymore. It even gives you chance on loot of your own lvl.
Ok well when i hit lvl 80 in a game i want to go back to lower lvl areas and onshot stuff im lvl 80 for gods sake.
This takes the realism out of a game for me anyway. If i start out in a small peasant town with little rats or golbin's to kill and come back after ive become a hero of this world i want to show what ive become and FEEL powerful . I dont wanna be some lvl 10 hero in a zone just because im in a zone thats lvl 10 . Not realistic to me .
Why shouldnt i be able to one shot a rat or goblin thats lvl 10 when ive just finished killing a huge boss at end game who is massively powerful. cmon man.
Self mentoring is there for a reason if ya wanna go that route mentor yourself to lvl 10 .
hate to keep brining up rift but its the only game i can give examples from . When i join a public group in a lower lvl area in rift it auto scales me to there level and drops rewards of my actual lvl as well. This is all being done already ..
SAying its unrealistic to not be able to kill a lvl 10 creature at lvl 70-80 in one shot is UNREALISTIC to me lol. You made the journey have grown into a hero of your world but shouldnt be able to kill rat or boar because your in a lower lvl area of the world your in ?
There is a difference. You have more abilities, you have slightly higher stats. So you do feel powerful. But they can still kill you if you just fight toe to toe.
All the lore in a MMO stops making sense if you could go back at high lvl and suddenly can 1 shot mobs (so yeah like in most lvl based MMO's).
Why would there be such a power difference between bandits based on geographic location? This is one reason why you autoscale down in GW2.
Im not trying to argue with you but what your telling me then is if i have a stick in my hand and scraps for armor im a young adventurer with no fighting experience and go from that to a beefy fighter with sword and shield it shouldnt be easier to kill a boar or rat or bandit?
Or if i go into a huge tower with an evil boss there who weilds dark arcane powers and can rumble the ground , he shouldnt be harder then a bandit? This is my point. different locations have different encounters of different difficulty a peasant town will have weaker enemies than a castle or cavern with magic weilding armor wearing bosses and minions true?
Lore wise if im a weak peasant like i said starting out and i learn all these new abilities from exploring and becoming a hero in the world im fighting for i should still be the same peasant after saving the world? I shouldnt be able to travel back to my hometown with all these weapons and armor and kill a measly rat , bandit or goblin easier than before?
Well to each ther own guess we have different views on things. Why have levels then or power increases , skill wise ect. Keep our mana, health and mobs the same all the way through the game if its going to be that way..scaling down IS the same as self mentoring .
Innovate: to introduce something new; make changes in anything established for or as if for the first time.
As MosesZD mentioned, innovation doesnt just mean the very first incarnation of an idea. It also means changing something to make it appear new. "The telephone is an example of invention. The iPhone is an example of innovation."
Looking at Rifts dynamic events and GW2's dynamic events is like night and day. The way dynamic events work in GW2 is definitely an innovation.
At any rate, here is my list, there is probably more.
What is actually new:
- No trinity in a Fantasy MMO.
- Downed system.
- Forced downward scaling of content (80s having to do level 20 content as a level 20 scaled down, no steamrolling).
-Underwater combat system.
- Hall of Monuments system.
What has been modified to appear new:
- Dynamic events done in such a scale that they consume the whole game. WAR and Rift had lots of dynamic events, but they are a seperate entity to the normal quest leveling. Other games have had them as nice diversions at endgame (EQ, EQ2 etc) but GW2 made it the entire game, such that the entire world is dynamic.
- No grinding for gear. It has been done in GW1, Bloodline Chronicles etc, but it is fairly unheard of for a fully fledged MMO to have no grind, leading to many cries of woe from the WoW zombie generation.
- The nature of weapon / skill ties and weapon switching. Yes other games had unique skills for certain weapons, but the way GW2 handles it is something entirely different.
Originally posted by Vannor GW2s innovative feature to me it that is people are working together whether they want to or not. Everything is public. It's not PQ's like War + CO, it's not Rifts... it's the WHOLE game. Players are grouping when they don't even know it, when they do know it and even when they don't need to. You couldn't play on your own in this game even you tried and no game has done this before, that is innovation.
Yes that's one good thing, in countless other games I've played, you get zero credit for attacking the target that other players/groups are attacking until you're grouped with them- in this game 2 of us on the same quest can hit the same target and get credit for it regardless of how much damage you do to them, and you get credit for location events (except it scales on how much you do).
Im not trying to argue with you but what your telling me then is if i have a stick in my hand and scraps for armor im a young adventurer with no fighting experience and go from that to a beefy fighter with sword and shield it shouldnt be easier to kill a boar or rat or bandit?
Or if i go into a huge tower with an evil boss there who weilds dark arcane powers and can rumble the ground , he shouldnt be harder then a bandit? This is my point. different locations have different encounters of different difficulty a peasant town will have weaker enemies than a castle or cavern with magic weilding armor wearing bosses and minions true?
Lore wise if im a weak peasant like i said starting out and i learn all these new abilities from exploring and becoming a hero in the world im fighting for i should still be the same peasant after saving the world? I shouldnt be able to travel back to my hometown with all these weapons and armor and kill a measly rat , bandit or goblin easier than before?
Well to each ther own guess we have different views on things. Why have levels then or power increases , skill wise ect. Keep our mana, health and mobs the same all the way through the game if its going to be that way..scaling down IS the same as self mentoring .
Biggest reason GW2 has lvls, is because they weren't sure people would be able to handle an MMO without them. And, to be honest, with all the QQing about progression they were probably right. TSW gave some hope that people could handle a lvl-less MMO, but in reality it just shifted the lvling from the character to the gear.
And to roll with your example, look at a game like Demon Souls. If you go back to earlier content it should be easier (you have more ways to attack your enemies, and you are more used to dealing with them, and you are also stronger), but this doesn't mean that you should be able to go back to your peasant town and 1shot everything. It also doesn't mean that you should magically be so powerful that nothing (not even rabid, carnivorous animals) will try and attack you.
Some of you people really need to make up your mind. Here we are in a thread about innovation, on a game that is doing a lot of things differently, criticising it for not doing things the same. Really? Personally I'm sick of vertical progression. I miss games where you become better because you actually got better at the game, instead of being given some artificial power bump as a reward for spending a lot of time in the game.
Comments
Here's a level 85 WoW player with zero kills and zero Quest XP:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2353107047
Obviously this is a rare situation - WoW iesn't designed for non-combat leveling. But just as obviously, it does reward non-combat activities.
I highly doubt he did no combat at all till level 85 cause by the xp curve and grind that WoW involves, it would have taken him years to reach that level(didn't checked the link btw). To each, it's own though and if he likes doing that then all the power to him.
I think that you just described a heart quest as a DE which is something totally different since a heart quest is repeatable the whole time and has only its 2-3 chains that repeat no matter if you win or lose them (though actually you can't really lose them).
The DEs on the other hand are having a different outcome and a other chain if you lose them instead if winning.
Below is the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word innovate, I have posted this becasue most people here dont seem to now what the word means.
Definition of innovate
verb:
make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas
Origin:
mid 16th century: from Latin innovat- 'renewed, altered', from the verb innovare, from in- 'into' + novare 'make new'
By this definition GW2 has a lot of inovation.
Example
rifts in rift spawned in random areas and added mobs that you killed then they closed. they did effect the area they covered but not very much.
In DE's you get things like, bandits attack water pipes one stage, if you stop them its over if you don't you get to defend workers trying to repair pipes stage two. Sometimes they poison water sometimes you have to get a cure.
Some areas get altered until the next cycle of DE's change them back depending on user participation.
This to me is major innovation.
I like rift so I am not having a go at it
Copying an existing system and changing the fluff a bit is innovation? I hadn't read the dictionary in a long time so it's clear without googling the meaning of every single word we use, heaven forbid, we might technically misuse a word as the connotations in modern language is slightly skewed from the textbook definition. Who knew
I guess i should call Samsung, they can counter sue Apple now as their Galaxy is by a 500 year old definition innovative, so surely not a complete rip-off. They will be pleased 
The hang-up here is the word, not the sentiment. A 16th centure definition of a word is clearly exactly the same now as it was then, right? I mean, by this logic language never evolves...ever
The OP most likely means "What did they do thats new", the semantics are astounding
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Innovation is not the same thing as invention, just to remind you. Your last sentence basically says GW2 didn't INVENT anything. Well no one was contesting that point, that's true.
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The word and its meaning still apply , your oppinion is that it changed the fluff a bit, in my oppion DE';s have a lot more in them than a simple rift.
language does evovle and dictionarys change to reflect this, in this case the word has not changed. you are thinking of invention not inovation. If the op meant "What did they do thats new" then why did he not say that and stop half of the problems with this post?
If you dont think GW2 inovated very much that is fine, I think they did thats just me but they did innovate.
Sorry you keep using this in all your post as being innovative,improved on ect.
Everquest 2 had mentoring years before.
Rift has auto scaling when joining public groups and when joining dungeons. in the open world as well.
It also lets you mentor yourself anywhere in the world if you choose to. Or anyone in a group if you choose to.
I dont want a game auto mentoring me because the zone im in. I would rather do it myself Doesnt seem realistic beng a high lvl and bam all a sudden your a whimp now because of the place you went? If i want to go back and farm i dont want to be high lvl and be getting aggro from lvl 10 mobs while im gathering Unless i want that to happen.
You never feel really powerful. Go gather nodes and get attacked at lvl 60 in a lvl 10 zone no thanks! Unless i want that it doesnt happen in rift i prefer it that way. Same with everquest 2 back when i played it.
Rift also has planar attunement after reaching lvl cap wich would takes months and months to cap out. Wich is why mentoring in rift is nice because you still get experience even after level 50 .
So dont go saying this is something gw2 started. Rift already has and had this . When the expansion comes out that triples the world size with everquest 2 type housing i think ill be happy but only time will tell.
Now if gw2 has an option to turn off auto mentor that wouldnt be so bad. I havent had the chance to play it , Id just like to point out gw2 did not improve on this or innovate this.
Your right about rifts having little impact but invasions , they dont go away , They take over towns with hundreds of mobs until they are taken care of , killing surrounding npc, and anything in there path . Mobs also travel the zones , set up small outposts to defend ect. . Innovative
I never said rifts were not innovative, I did say that I liked rift. I was saying that DE's in GW2 are innovative aswell and I like the way they are done.
I only used the refferance to rift to show that there is a lot more to a DE than people are saying.
Both games have a lot of inovation its just up to the each person to find the inovation they prefer and play that.
Every feature I can think of has been improved with innovation.
Innovation != Invention
Improved?
Explain what has been improved please. Mentoring wasnt invented here so it cant = innovation for gw2 or rift.
If you mean improving mentoring move on, rift already has auto scale mentoring , self mentoring, group mentoring, xp while mentored after lvl cap. dungeon que as a mentor.Rifts scale to the party involved as well.
maybe they did improve on the random events making the quest like but certainly not on the mentoring.
Now rift will innovate housing with controllable weather effects, inside and outside placement of objects. With resizing of all objects.
Nice that a game can continue after release to improve with innovation. Adding new things all the time instead of just content.
Well then they obviously changed things in WoW because gathering gave you no character xp in the beginning (CB, OP and the first year at least).
Anyway, when it comes to the DEs it depends on their length in chains cause I saw DEs that had at least 3 chains in them.
People also mostly tend to immediately leave after a DE is "done" (the current chain) while people that tend to partially follow the npc to see what's next in store can be surprised.
That's a thing that a heart npc never does and never will since its setup like the old linear type of quests that has 2 tasks that end and restart again.
The only difference between the hearts and the old quest systems is not only the tasks themselves but also the fact that your progress on them gets saved so if you leave in the middle of it, the next time you go back you see the progress bar saved your approach from the last time.
The DEs doesn't work that way and you might manage to be involved in some or not at all.
Having your second post in the thread answer your honest question pretty much negates any honesty involved.
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I guess not many players noticed this. But I think that one major innovation is the way they roll out updates. The server doesn't go down for that. You log out, restart the client, which then downloads the update and start playing again. Which other MMO does this? (Except for Guild Wars 1 which isn't supposed to be a MMO).
The dynamic events are also an improvement upon WAR and Rift. The way they are chained based on outcome in GW2, is the next step imo and therefore an improvement.
The autoscaling down to the lvl of the area, is not the same as mentoring, but a whole different gamedesign. It gets rid of the unrealistic superpowered hero idea that you have in other high lvl MMO's. Where you suddenly can 1 shot mobs that are grey to you after some playing and makes low lvl areas trivial and not interesting to go back anymore. It even gives you chance on loot of your own lvl.
Ok well when i hit lvl 80 in a game i want to go back to lower lvl areas and onshot stuff im lvl 80 for gods sake.
This takes the realism out of a game for me anyway. If i start out in a small peasant town with little rats or golbin's to kill and come back after ive become a hero of this world i want to show what ive become and FEEL powerful . I dont wanna be some lvl 10 hero in a zone just because im in a zone thats lvl 10 . Not realistic to me .
Why shouldnt i be able to one shot a rat or goblin thats lvl 10 when ive just finished killing a huge boss at end game who is massively powerful. cmon man.
Self mentoring is there for a reason if ya wanna go that route mentor yourself to lvl 10 .
hate to keep brining up rift but its the only game i can give examples from . When i join a public group in a lower lvl area in rift it auto scales me to there level and drops rewards of my actual lvl as well. This is all being done already ..
SAying its unrealistic to not be able to kill a lvl 10 creature at lvl 70-80 in one shot is UNREALISTIC to me lol. You made the journey have grown into a hero of your world but shouldnt be able to kill rat or boar because your in a lower lvl area of the world your in ?
Yea and im not saying any game is bad hell i dont like the end game grind of rift , but like you i do like some features of it that are better than wow's also. Then again there is some things in rift i dont like. Rift is not the best game im sure but i do like how the devs are bringing in housing , add adding things all the time .So ive decided to stick with it . To me every game has its good and its bad. I just dont care for it when others act like things were never done before ect.
There is a difference. You have more abilities, you have slightly higher stats. So you do feel powerful. But they can still kill you if you just fight toe to toe.
All the lore in a MMO stops making sense if you could go back at high lvl and suddenly can 1 shot mobs (so yeah like in most lvl based MMO's).
Why would there be such a power difference between bandits based on geographic location? This is one reason why you autoscale down in GW2.
Im not trying to argue with you but what your telling me then is if i have a stick in my hand and scraps for armor im a young adventurer with no fighting experience and go from that to a beefy fighter with sword and shield it shouldnt be easier to kill a boar or rat or bandit?
Or if i go into a huge tower with an evil boss there who weilds dark arcane powers and can rumble the ground , he shouldnt be harder then a bandit? This is my point. different locations have different encounters of different difficulty a peasant town will have weaker enemies than a castle or cavern with magic weilding armor wearing bosses and minions true?
Lore wise if im a weak peasant like i said starting out and i learn all these new abilities from exploring and becoming a hero in the world im fighting for i should still be the same peasant after saving the world? I shouldnt be able to travel back to my hometown with all these weapons and armor and kill a measly rat , bandit or goblin easier than before?
Well to each ther own guess we have different views on things. Why have levels then or power increases , skill wise ect. Keep our mana, health and mobs the same all the way through the game if its going to be that way..scaling down IS the same as self mentoring .
Innovate: to introduce something new; make changes in anything established for or as if for the first time.
As MosesZD mentioned, innovation doesnt just mean the very first incarnation of an idea. It also means changing something to make it appear new. "The telephone is an example of invention. The iPhone is an example of innovation."
Looking at Rifts dynamic events and GW2's dynamic events is like night and day. The way dynamic events work in GW2 is definitely an innovation.
At any rate, here is my list, there is probably more.
What is actually new:
- No trinity in a Fantasy MMO.
- Downed system.
- Forced downward scaling of content (80s having to do level 20 content as a level 20 scaled down, no steamrolling).
-Underwater combat system.
- Hall of Monuments system.
What has been modified to appear new:
- Dynamic events done in such a scale that they consume the whole game. WAR and Rift had lots of dynamic events, but they are a seperate entity to the normal quest leveling. Other games have had them as nice diversions at endgame (EQ, EQ2 etc) but GW2 made it the entire game, such that the entire world is dynamic.
- No grinding for gear. It has been done in GW1, Bloodline Chronicles etc, but it is fairly unheard of for a fully fledged MMO to have no grind, leading to many cries of woe from the WoW zombie generation.
- The nature of weapon / skill ties and weapon switching. Yes other games had unique skills for certain weapons, but the way GW2 handles it is something entirely different.
Biggest reason GW2 has lvls, is because they weren't sure people would be able to handle an MMO without them. And, to be honest, with all the QQing about progression they were probably right. TSW gave some hope that people could handle a lvl-less MMO, but in reality it just shifted the lvling from the character to the gear.
And to roll with your example, look at a game like Demon Souls. If you go back to earlier content it should be easier (you have more ways to attack your enemies, and you are more used to dealing with them, and you are also stronger), but this doesn't mean that you should be able to go back to your peasant town and 1shot everything. It also doesn't mean that you should magically be so powerful that nothing (not even rabid, carnivorous animals) will try and attack you.
Some of you people really need to make up your mind. Here we are in a thread about innovation, on a game that is doing a lot of things differently, criticising it for not doing things the same. Really? Personally I'm sick of vertical progression. I miss games where you become better because you actually got better at the game, instead of being given some artificial power bump as a reward for spending a lot of time in the game.