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Guild Wars 2 is an MMORPG

Ban_KhaerosBan_Khaeros Panmington, NDPosts: 27Member

So there's lots of threads that say "GW2 is gonna fail!1!1!" or "GW2 is the second coming11!11".  Allow me to exercise skill while you recognize real.

 

The game isn't going to be a bust, but it indeed does not innovate on as many levels as people realize.

 

First, let's give credit.  Anet managed to obfuscate or hide the 'Kill 10 rats' part of their quests very well.  By making things into a progress bar instead of a count, you're not left wondering 'how does this guy know that 10 rats will cull the rat population?'.  In renown quests, being able to make progress on a quest by doing different things is a great way to consolidate the 'overflowing quest log' problem while giving players some choice in what they want to do.

 

The game rewards you for doing almost everything - gathering, crafting, exploring, questing, PVP.  This is game design that isn't far from what Blizzard is doing in MoP - trying to reward players of any play style.  While I disagree with level scaling as a concept, it's employed well in this MMO, and means you'll always have somewhere to go even if you've cleared past areas.  The tradeoff for not feeling your character become more powerful through levels is the fact that more content is available to you at any one time, which is a risk that does have a reward, thanks to the execution by anet.

 

That is good game design by anet.  As a top GW1 pvp player that has been trolled by anet almost every patch, I am impressed by the company's execution of their 'manifesto'.

 

Now the problems.

 

Obfuscating kill 10 rats doesn't change the fact that the quests are still the same (destroy, drop, deliver, discover, defend in the words of TB).  While the packaging / wrapping is nicer, the concept is still the same when you break it down.  For a themepark quest grinder, GW2 does very well.  For an MMO (or a video game for that matter), GW2 is still stuck in the same rut.  And I'm not talking about sandboxes, because they are shit too - I'm talking about good games, which did exist far before the sandbox vs themepark argument that has this forum in a noose.

 

The game bases its sustainability on level scaling and being able to enjoy all content.  The problem occurs when this content dries up for players (which varies based on the optimism of the player as well as how much time they invest in the game).  PVP is technically player-created content, but imbalances are starting to show up from day 1 and it's not pleasant to see.  While you can say 'it's impossible to balance' or 'you're just an endgame hound', you're just playing yourself if you really believe that anet can make this game thrive without continuous updates, which must be funded by microtransactions and bundled into large releases.  Although the costs of running an MMO are miniscule compared to what they used to be, anet still needs to pay for server bandwidth and salaries.  Expect a cut in staff as things get more stable.  Solving this problem will involve releasing content to keep players interested.  It will be interesting to see how they can fund this with microtransactions and expansions.

 

WvW isn't a groundbreaking innovation.  I'm sure the people on this forum that claim they are some MMO expert can share quite a few games that had three-faction siege warfare.  To be honest, three faction persistent PVP has become a stereotype of itself since so many MMO companies are turning to it (Trion, Funcom, Anet, Beth, and numerous others).  You can look back on DAOC with rose-tinted glasses as much as you want, but the game was a total mess when it comes down to the truth and zergs still run rampant in the zones, no matter what version of WvW you play.  To solve this problem, steps need to be taken to reward small-group combat or punish zergs.

 

Zone puzzles were done in RIFT, skill challenges are just quests with a unique reward, vistas only need a leap of faith to become their source, and being able to level your character in different ways was explored in games far beyond the average age group of this forum.  See how I can trace things to previous incarnations?  The video game industry builds off the previous games to create better ones.  It's not a clone just because it uses all these things, but it isn't an innovator because it failed to provide sufficient deviation from the standard.

 

The people who say GW2 is a clone are dumb, but the people who say it's some sort of godly epitome of innovation aren't much better off either. 

 

Overall, gamers, GW2 is an MMORPG.  Play it loud.

 

Comments

  • redman875redman875 illinois, ILPosts: 230Member
    What are you smoking?
  • Ban_KhaerosBan_Khaeros Panmington, NDPosts: 27Member
    Originally posted by redman875
    What are you smoking?

     

    I'm smoking all the haters and fanboys in one post, which means that no one on this internet community will like my post.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Ban_Khaeros

    Originally posted by redman875 What are you smoking?
     

    I'm smoking all the haters and fanboys in one post, which means that no one on this internet community will like my post.



    This made me smile. More people should work rhymes into their posts.

    ** edit **

    This is all I needed to read of the OP to give it a thumbs up.

    So there's lots of threads that say "GW2 is gonna fail!1!1!" or "GW2 is the second coming11!11". Allow me to exercise skill while you recognize real.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • PurgatusPurgatus San Diego, CAPosts: 342Member

    While it's a well thought out opinion, as a faiboi, you have not broken my rose tinted goggles. I disagree with most of your negative points.

    Still, thanks for trying to be neutral.

  • RebelScum99RebelScum99 Mesa, AZPosts: 1,090Member
    Originally posted by Ban_Khaeros
    Originally posted by redman875
    What are you smoking?

     

    I'm smoking all the haters and fanboys in one post, which means that no one on this internet community will like my post.

    I may be in the minority, but I liked your post.  GW2 isn't incredibly innovative, and isn't going to turn the MMO community on its ear like many have suggested.  But I will say that the one thing ANet did right with this game is bring exploration for the sake of exploration back.  You can literally just spend your day wandering around and seeing what kind of trouble you can get into.  I think that's a good thing.  

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Actually GW2 defies enough traditional conventions to almost create its own category, I liken it more of an action MMORPG than anything else.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • VyntVynt Glendale, CAPosts: 632Member Uncommon

    I liked your post for the most part. I do disagree about the 3 faction pvp being overdone. Think it is not done enough. No one was doing it like daoc, or even at all until recently. The worst part about the WvW in GW2 is the queue. Daoc didn't limit people joining.

    As far as balance, never really suppose to be 1v1 balance in a group based game, just not way out of balance.

    Also, I loved rvr in daoc, even the zergs. A lot of people didn't run with the zergs, but having massive battles of 100-600 people were awesome. Or running with my guild of 1-2 groups (8-16 people), surprising a zerg from behind and wiping them out, so memorable.

    Really hate that rose-tinted glasses line these days, tossed around way too much. I've gone back to some of my favorites and they're still better than anything else.

    I went back to daoc a few years or so ago and was on the classic server. While the movement was hard to get use to after modern games, the gameplay was far beyond anything else I played. Would still be there, but they got rid of the classic server and just made it all one server. I still might go back to that now, even though I didn't like the ToA stuff much.

    Heck, I even went back to EQ and played the progression server for several months and loved it. Only quit because I went on vacation for a month, and when I got back was in no mood to play anything. I haven't played any new game as long as my return on EQ. Rose-tinted glasses my ass, lol.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ban_Khaeros

    The people who say GW2 is a clone are dumb, but the people who say it's some sort of godly epitome of innovation aren't much better off either. 

    Where are these people that claimed it's a magic pill or that it is some sort of godly epitome of innovation?

    "Allow me to exercise skill while you recognize real."

    Skillfully go look up straw man, please, because you need a lot more practice at setting one up.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member Common
    Originally posted by Ban_Khaeros

    So there's lots of threads that say "GW2 is gonna fail!1!1!" or "GW2 is the second coming11!11".  Allow me to exercise skill while you recognize real.

     

    Blah, Blah, Blah

     

    Did anyone else try to rap the rest of the post after reading this line? It just didn't flow for me.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • DrachasorDrachasor Columbus, OHPosts: 2,678Member

    If combining a dozen ideas from a dozen or more games and then adding some new stuff doesn't qualify to you as innovation, then I think you need to spend a little more time with a dictionary, my friend.

    It's not the most innovative thing ever, but it is still pretty darn innovative, especially given the MMO market.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Ban_Khaeros

    The people who say GW2 is a clone are dumb, but the people who say it's some sort of godly epitome of innovation aren't much better off either. 

    Where are these people that claimed it's a magic pill or that it is some sort of godly epitome of innovation?

    "Allow me to exercise skill while you recognize real."

    Skillfully go look up straw man, please, because you need a lot more practice at setting one up.

    While he's looking that up, you should go check out the meaning of "a figure of speech".

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Originally posted by Ban_Khaeros So there's lots of threads that say "GW2 is gonna fail!1!1!" or "GW2 is the second coming11!11".  Allow me to exercise skill while you recognize real.   Blah, Blah, Blah  
    Did anyone else try to rap the rest of the post after reading this line? It just didn't flow for me.


    Oh, there was more stuff after that? I stopped reading after that one sentence, declared the OP the winner and went to the stupid XFire threads.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • otacuotacu BolzanoPosts: 547Member

    Let me remind you something.... 3 pvp faction isn't overdone. What AAA titles were released with 3 pvp factions in the last 10 years? none

     

    In fact the last good 3 factions mmorpg was DAOC from 10 years ago. It was just until recently when ANET revealed they were planning WvWvW that other designers tried to dump the Blizzard 2 faction way and converted to the Anet 3 factions way.

    You have to thank GW2 for tsw,rift (Rift is so blatant it's funny) and teso going in this direction.

    And more and more developers will copy GW2 features from now on...

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Ban_Khaeros

    The people who say GW2 is a clone are dumb, but the people who say it's some sort of godly epitome of innovation aren't much better off either. 

    Where are these people that claimed it's a magic pill or that it is some sort of godly epitome of innovation?

    "Allow me to exercise skill while you recognize real."

    Skillfully go look up straw man, please, because you need a lot more practice at setting one up.

    While he's looking that up, you should go check out the meaning of "a figure of speech".

    Please tell me that was some odd form of sarcasm and that you aren't really that easily snowed. :/

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Ban_KhaerosBan_Khaeros Panmington, NDPosts: 27Member

    Blessed be to those who saw the bars of pure fire.  Available upon PM.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,041Member Uncommon

    Well, yes. DEs are in the basics still quests, just a lot better delivered and with more options.

    But you know it is kinda hard to make interesting PvE content without something like that. Sure, you could just randomly kill mobs and do dungeons but there is nothing in GW2 that hinders you from playing the game that way. Once you done the tutorial you can ignore every single DE and heart quest and just grind mobs if you prefer that.

    The question is how you could make PvE content more fun than this, and it is not a bad question at all but I for one just cant figure it out. If you can I am sure both Blizzard and EA would love to find out.

    Of course you could make it all playermade content instead like a sandbox but that really aint PvE and others than ANET are a lot better at sandbox content. And frankly have sandbox content so far never really been that huge, I myself believe in the potential but GW2 just aint that type of game.

    As for WvWvW I do think it need some polish and that it will get it as well. PvP is one of the things that improves most with time in a good MMO. And I think you are right, they need to reward smaller groups more there.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ban_Khaeros
    you're just playing yourself if you really believe that anet can make this game thrive without continuous updates, which must be funded by microtransactions and bundled into large releases.  Although the costs of running an MMO are miniscule compared to what they used to be, anet still needs to pay for server bandwidth and salaries.  Expect a cut in staff as things get more stable.  Solving this problem will involve releasing content to keep players interested.  It will be interesting to see how they can fund this with microtransactions and expansions.

    for a full year, GW1 was very successful w no paid content and no store

    Factions didnt release until April 2006 and the GW1 store wasnt added until summer 2006

     

    GW2 will have more support costs than GW1 but it also launched w store

    as long as ANET keep selling new copies of the game and expanding to different regions  (China was announced today)  the game will do well

     

    for context,

    ANET gave an interview in 2006 about GW1 support costs compared to a mmo like Lineage

    http://gigaom.com/2006/10/26/guild-wars/

     

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