I play World of Warcraft and DC Universe Online currently. One is a subscription only game, one has a free-to-play option. I subscribe to both of them.
I guess they are kiddie games according to the OP, but I wonder if that makes me a "kiddie" for playing them. Interesting thought. Yet, I am 39, four children (oldest 19, youngest only 2), a professional author (yes-- published, yes--award nominated), professional PnP RPG designer and publisher, and make a decent income.
Yet, after trying TSW, I will not pay a subscription for that game. I didn't find the game particularly good from a gameplay standpoint, I found the puzzles simplistic, and the overall theme trying too hard to be "dark and mature" and instead coming off as lackluster and artificial.
Hmm..Ok. ..So you think I label everyone that plays a certain game " a kiddie" ?
Please re-read my initial posts in that case..I may be a bit rusty on the communication skills since English is not my first language..But that was NOT what I ment, far from it..
I have played both of those games myself and I'm even older than you Not that 39 or 45 is old , mind you !!
The article is about why we all of a sudden find gamers that express them selfs like..(Obvioiusly both young and old )
-If I am going to play this game they better have it free to play, or else I won't play it ..
There could be several reasons for this, and this is what the article really is about..Nothing else.
Well, of course there is that market segment that won't touch a game without a F2P option. Truth of the matter, however, is that if the MMO industry was like it was pre-Turbine going F2P-Hybrid with DDO and LoTRO and blowing the doors off that market, those people would not be playing MMOs at all. They were simply not going to pay a monthly sub for a game, period.
And they've been around for well over the past decade. Heck, I'd hear that same reasoning from people way back when EQ1 ruled the roost: No thank you, I won't pay a subscription for a video game. And the MMO market had zero chance of ever tapping into their wallets, whereas with F2P-Hybrid they now at least have a chance of getting them to walk through the door and maybe drop some cash via the microtransactions. I can say that Turbine, SOE, and Cryptic all swear that it's worked for them.
Unfortunately, the main thing that hurt The Secret World is Funcom. Anarchy Online never had a great reputation for being stable, and its launch was one of the absolute worse of that era. Even after the dust had settled and the memories had faded, Funcom botched it all over again with Age of Conan. AoC didn't fade as fast from memory (not to mention the internet has grown since the Anarchy Online days, and AoC's issues are still well discussed). So, when Funcom was launching The Secret World . . . heck, I know several people that Beta tested it, enjoyed it, but have no faith in Funcom not to ultimately botch it, it go F2P, and the Box Price feel more like a charity donation than a well-made purchase (according to them) at that point. Too many people that I personally talked to (not to be confused as a representation of the MMO cosumer base at large) simply had no faith in Funcom and weren't willing to pull out the credit card for them again--- or even for the first time thanks to the reputation they have for game development and botched launches.
I have no doubt that if The Secret World was the best designed MMO to date, it would still be struggling like this out of the gate because of who the developing studio is. Unfortunately, after AO and AoC, I'm not sure Funcom can turn themselves around in the MMO industry anymore. SOE, a much bigger and more experienced studio, once the king of the MMO hill, couldn't even shed their reputation and past actions and turn it around-- and now their entire current and upcoming portfolio is all F2P-Hybrid.
Originally posted by thark think the gamers of today are cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games
Here are some issues that points to certain aspects of todays markets.
1 The to YOUNG crowd ..to get a monthly subscription fee payd by their parents. We have a massive increase in gamers over the years, most are young and without any income .
This in itself generates hate not only towards said parents , but unfortunatly it creates hate towards developers aswell. If I cant play this game, I will hate it and spread ill rumours about it.
2. The FTP market generates a play everything for free mentality . They are not even considering that said game may even become more expensive than 15 $ with a cash shop etc.
3 . The current BETA FREE LOADERS and cheapscates. More and more players DEMAND to play a game for a few weeks before launch, othervise they claim to NOT be playing at all.
What happens in many cases is that before the beta is over many has had their fun in the game, so why even bother paying ..Half the game is even spoiled, wich makes it even harder for said person to really commit to the game..
Sure, having a good beta may even draw in some customers, but the people with money do not run around and play betas..Not in the bigger scope of things atleast. This is ofcourse my opinion, I may be wrong in this, but I think the majority of the beta players are only there to play for free and then set the game as "played"
4. The PIRATE and torrent market, this one affects the MMO market aswell , even thou we do not think so..It creates a general free to play mentality in itself.
Software should be free, why am I suppose to be paying for an MMO when I can play Skyrim absolutly free.
Hopefully the market changes eventually, but I'm starting to wonder..really.
You're deluding yourself because none of your statements have any facts or research to back up your claims.
MMO Gamers are not cheap Now a days (No seriously) and most of them are between ages 21 - 37 years old (Not all kids) P2P MMORPG's have not only cash shops but also subscriptions added onto them now. MMO gamers now pay more than they did 10 years ago in some MMORPG's. People in Age of Conan were paying a monthly sub fee plus purchasing Epic pvp armor just so they could contend in the brackets below lvl 80. If you didn't buy that stuff off the marketplace you basically were gimped in pvp below 80, because it was even better then the stuff you could get in dungeons.
I play TSW and love it, but the cash shop should not even be there. The developers make enough money off box sales and subscription fee's. Guild Wars 2 also does pump out just as many updates as any other P2P MMO. Your statement that it doesn't because it doesn't have a subscription fee is completly and utterly false.
Blaming all young people and gamers saying we are cheap because the Industry is not up to your standards is ignorance. Thats like me saying the reason why the Game Industry is bad is because of the gamers who fund the companys and invest in their shareholders so that they can continue to work as a company? What a stupid anology you have.
Originally posted by thark think the gamers of today are cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games
Here are some issues that points to certain aspects of todays markets.
1 The to YOUNG crowd ..to get a monthly subscription fee payd by their parents. We have a massive increase in gamers over the years, most are young and without any income .
This in itself generates hate not only towards said parents , but unfortunatly it creates hate towards developers aswell. If I cant play this game, I will hate it and spread ill rumours about it.
2. The FTP market generates a play everything for free mentality . They are not even considering that said game may even become more expensive than 15 $ with a cash shop etc.
3 . The current BETA FREE LOADERS and cheapscates. More and more players DEMAND to play a game for a few weeks before launch, othervise they claim to NOT be playing at all.
What happens in many cases is that before the beta is over many has had their fun in the game, so why even bother paying ..Half the game is even spoiled, wich makes it even harder for said person to really commit to the game..
Sure, having a good beta may even draw in some customers, but the people with money do not run around and play betas..Not in the bigger scope of things atleast. This is ofcourse my opinion, I may be wrong in this, but I think the majority of the beta players are only there to play for free and then set the game as "played"
4. The PIRATE and torrent market, this one affects the MMO market aswell , even thou we do not think so..It creates a general free to play mentality in itself.
Software should be free, why am I suppose to be paying for an MMO when I can play Skyrim absolutly free.
Hopefully the market changes eventually, but I'm starting to wonder..really.
Lot of hate in that post, lol. Some of what you say I agree with, but in the end...the reason we see so many problems with gaming communities, is simply because gaming has gotten to big. 10 years ago gaming was the new thing, not its the big thing.
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
Originally posted by thark think the gamers of today are cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games
Here are some issues that points to certain aspects of todays markets.
1 The to YOUNG crowd ..to get a monthly subscription fee payd by their parents. We have a massive increase in gamers over the years, most are young and without any income .
This in itself generates hate not only towards said parents , but unfortunatly it creates hate towards developers aswell. If I cant play this game, I will hate it and spread ill rumours about it.
2. The FTP market generates a play everything for free mentality . They are not even considering that said game may even become more expensive than 15 $ with a cash shop etc.
3 . The current BETA FREE LOADERS and cheapscates. More and more players DEMAND to play a game for a few weeks before launch, othervise they claim to NOT be playing at all.
What happens in many cases is that before the beta is over many has had their fun in the game, so why even bother paying ..Half the game is even spoiled, wich makes it even harder for said person to really commit to the game..
Sure, having a good beta may even draw in some customers, but the people with money do not run around and play betas..Not in the bigger scope of things atleast. This is ofcourse my opinion, I may be wrong in this, but I think the majority of the beta players are only there to play for free and then set the game as "played"
4. The PIRATE and torrent market, this one affects the MMO market aswell , even thou we do not think so..It creates a general free to play mentality in itself.
Software should be free, why am I suppose to be paying for an MMO when I can play Skyrim absolutly free.
Hopefully the market changes eventually, but I'm starting to wonder..really.
You're deluding yourself because none of your statements have any facts or research to back up your claims.
MMO Gamers are not cheap Now a days (No seriously) and most of them are between ages 21 - 37 years old (Not all kids) P2P MMORPG's have not only cash shops but also subscriptions added onto them now. MMO gamers now pay more than they did 10 years ago in some MMORPG's. People in Age of Conan were paying a monthly sub fee plus purchasing Epic pvp armor just so they could contend in the brackets below lvl 80. If you didn't buy that stuff off the marketplace you basically were gimped in pvp below 80, because it was even better then the stuff you could get in dungeons.
I play TSW and love it, but the cash shop should not even be there. The developers make enough money off box sales and subscription fee's. Guild Wars 2 also does pump out just as many updates as any other P2P MMO. Your statement that it doesn't because it doesn't have a subscription fee is completly and utterly false.
Blaming all young people and gamers saying we are cheap because the Industry is not up to your standards is ignorance. Thats like me saying the reason why the Game Industry is bad is because of the gamers who fund the companys and invest in their shareholders so that they can continue to work as a company? What a stupid anology you have.
The largest group of gamers belong to the cathegorie ages between 21-37..I have no doubt what so ever that this is true..But I think we can safely say that there ís a growing categorie of gamers, one that practically has lived besides a computer and a TV game from birth.
The current largest group( of ages 21-37) of gamers above started the Internet era, but I think i can safely say that there is a new breed of gamers comming fast, and this group is growing by the minute.
Everyday, I meet kids belonging to this group, be it either on my daughters school or on the internet itself, many of them learn the anon phenomena of the internet very early. I play MMO's with my 2 daughters , they have played MMO's since they were 5 or 6 now they are 12,. I try to teach them the ethics of internet and inside gameworlds , so that they learn the value of behaving like nice human beiings, even thou they are anon.
But what an ugly mess they are met up with , kids that lie, cheat , scream and simply think they are the greatest on this planet. Naturally they have very little money to pay for their games. Wich in turn makes it perfect with the new FTP games all the free torrents etc, just as my points above state.
when you are met up with such an ugly farse, Is it odd that you have little faith in the "new breed of gamers!?.
Maybe I am just seeing the worst in this group , and maybe I'm totally wrong in my predictions, I sincerly hope I am wrong..
Very interesting perspective you have on the "current generation of children on the internet", OP.
However, I would disagree on a lot of it, and also point to the adults on the internet and the annonymous behavior they indulge in.
Instead, though, let's focus on the up-and-coming generation and MMOs. Your daughters play MMOs, just as you do. My 14 year old plays an MMO, just like his Dad does.
My 12 and 14 year olds are also tabletop roleplayers, just like their parents are.
However, not a single 11-16 year old friend that my son or daughter has (the age of the friend depending upon which one of my kids we are discussing), nor any remote friends in that circle, play MMOs. They are playing the PS3 network or Xbox live. Not a single one of them have even tried WoW (trial version, and a heavily media marketed game), DCUO (DC Comics Universe F2P), or any MMO. They have no interest. Give them a controller, a headset, and their friends in the latest "Be a Soldier" Xbox game.
None of those friends have ever tried a tabletop RPG either, but that's a different thread.
MMOs have yet to find a way to really tap into the current "teenage" generation. And the industry faces extremely tough competition pulling them away from PS3 and (even more so) Xbox Live where all their friends from school are hanging out. And in this economy, don't believe for an instant most parents are just handing out a credit card to little "Timmy" to pay for an MMO when they are likely already paying for them to play Xbox with their friends.
In the two MMOs I currently subscribe to, and the others I have tried over the past two years . . . I haven't noticed all that many "kids" in chat.
Originally posted by thark think the gamers of today are cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games
Here are some issues that points to certain aspects of todays markets.
1 The to YOUNG crowd ..to get a monthly subscription fee payd by their parents. We have a massive increase in gamers over the years, most are young and without any income .
This in itself generates hate not only towards said parents , but unfortunatly it creates hate towards developers aswell. If I cant play this game, I will hate it and spread ill rumours about it.
2. The FTP market generates a play everything for free mentality . They are not even considering that said game may even become more expensive than 15 $ with a cash shop etc.
3 . The current BETA FREE LOADERS and cheapscates. More and more players DEMAND to play a game for a few weeks before launch, othervise they claim to NOT be playing at all.
What happens in many cases is that before the beta is over many has had their fun in the game, so why even bother paying ..Half the game is even spoiled, wich makes it even harder for said person to really commit to the game..
Sure, having a good beta may even draw in some customers, but the people with money do not run around and play betas..Not in the bigger scope of things atleast. This is ofcourse my opinion, I may be wrong in this, but I think the majority of the beta players are only there to play for free and then set the game as "played"
4. The PIRATE and torrent market, this one affects the MMO market aswell , even thou we do not think so..It creates a general free to play mentality in itself.
Software should be free, why am I suppose to be paying for an MMO when I can play Skyrim absolutly free.
Hopefully the market changes eventually, but I'm starting to wonder..really.
So you approach TSW with a "Country Club" mentality? You think haveing a "gated" game is going to help it? Fact is, TSW is just not that good. It's not worthy of this tripple dip revenue model. If you want a game that filter's players by being more expensive, it better dam well be the pinnacle of the best that the industry has to offer.....EVER!
Maturity or mentality aside, this game is simply not worth the cost. I have been a long time paying customer of FunCom and so, I had recieved a closed beta invite. So, I tried it and was not overly impressed. It wasn't a bad game, it just didn't suit me. But what's more, is that I will not support FunCom's revenue model. It's that simple. Even if the game was "all that". If I am paying a sub, I want access to all the game offers. even if it's a pair of sungleasses. DOn't make me pay a boxed fee up froint, then pay 15 bucks a month and then put stuff I can't have in the Cash Shop. I ai't payin that. And you must also realize that a lot of the P2W models are also full of P2W brat kiddies who thing they are better players cuz mommy and daddy's CC makes them better? If TSW was worth it's revenue model, you'd have more of these too.
And if you think it's because I'm "cheap", I just spent a considerable amount of real money in GW2's cash shop because I felt it's woth it for me to do so. While what you say may be true in some cases, I think that your generalizations are a little over simplified and really don't apply to as many people as you think.
Edit:
I reread that, and I know it sounded like I am invalidating what you say, I guess, it's just the way I worded it. So I'm sorry. I do recognize what you are saying. I just don't think it' really applies to TSW as much as other issues do.
A month's subscription to TSW is (I think?) £11.50. Alternatively I can buy ME3, the AAA multi-award-winning RPG for £7.50
For a small publisher this is brilliant - release a game with minor publicity in March, put it on sale in May, repeat that sale a few times then release a new game in August. More income, faster, and free publicity for the sequel... awesome!
For a large publisher like EA, this is a nightmare. Their AAA games need to compete against those sales... As they release so many sales, they can pretty much guarantee every AAA release will be up against a discounted product! If they discount their own games then they'll be facing the nightmare of ME4 competing against a discounted dragon age 3...
In MMO terms - is a months subscription to TSW worth 1.5x ME3? How about 3xFar Cry I+II? or Assassin's creed I+II+brotherhood?
Game prices are being driven downwards by aggressive companies. Gamers aren't cheap... games are.
A company needs to base it's business model on the state of it's environment... rather than trying to change the environment to match it's business model.
Very interesting perspective you have on the "current generation of children on the internet", OP.
However, I would disagree on a lot of it, and also point to the adults on the internet and the annonymous behavior they indulge in.
Instead, though, let's focus on the up-and-coming generation and MMOs. Your daughters play MMOs, just as you do. My 14 year old plays an MMO, just like his Dad does.
My 12 and 14 year olds are also tabletop roleplayers, just like their parents are.
However, not a single 11-16 year old friend that my son or daughter has (the age of the friend depending upon which one of my kids we are discussing), nor any remote friends in that circle, play MMOs. They are playing the PS3 network or Xbox live. Not a single one of them have even tried WoW (trial version, and a heavily media marketed game), DCUO (DC Comics Universe F2P), or any MMO. They have no interest. Give them a controller, a headset, and their friends in the latest "Be a Soldier" Xbox game.
None of those friends have ever tried a tabletop RPG either, but that's a different thread.
MMOs have yet to find a way to really tap into the current "teenage" generation. And the industry faces extremely tough competition pulling them away from PS3 and (even more so) Xbox Live where all their friends from school are hanging out. And in this economy, don't believe for an instant most parents are just handing out a credit card to little "Timmy" to pay for an MMO when they are likely already paying for them to play Xbox with their friends.
In the two MMOs I currently subscribe to, and the others I have tried over the past two years . . . I haven't noticed all that many "kids" in chat.
Great read there
Nice to see that you play tabletop roleplay with your kids..
I have myself Game mastered 2 adventures in Pathfinder for my daughters and a few of their friends(all girls), they absolutly loved every minute of it.
Originally posted by thark think the gamers of today are cheap . My hope is that eventually TSW will pick up all the "mature" gamers that It really needs to survive, we need developers like FUNCOM on the market. Othervise we are stuck with super easy "kiddie" games
I don't know if you will consider me 'mature player', but I am playing computer games since 1990.
My first mmoprg was Ultima Online and I loved it.
I also can pay subscription and actually for kind of mmorpg I would want to play most and longterm - I would prefer subsciption if that would give me no cash shop, no rmah, no gold selling enviroment.
I know one thing though. TSW will NOT pick me. I played it and it is usual, linear themepak with instanced dungeons PvE grinding and instanced PvP grinding. Also not really into mmorpg's that put most of their emphasis on story and cutscenes.
People say TSW is immersive and 'virtual worldy', but for me it is not. Cutscenes and VO does not really work for me well in mmorpg's so I was not immersed and game is zoned themepark with instaced grind so there is nothing virtual worldy about it. Not more than in Swtor or AoC.
Bit of story can be nice, but overally I am not looking for that in mmropg and even if I look for story I will create myself.
Besides I hate double dipping with their pricing.
So thanks but no thanks.
You don't like the game, thats fine..Not everyone will like TSW..
But you do not have a problem with a "price" or a subscription fee if the game you play is good in your opinion
But as It's stands ...Most players today seems to have a problem with just that..To actually pay for anything,,
Fair enough.
Yes you're right - I have no problem with paying sub for mmorpg.
Especially that I don't have time (and would not even want to If I had it) to play more than 1 mmorpg at a time - then really 15-20 $ per month is accpetable if that would mean that there are no other 'on-going' payments like CS, rmah and gold selling / plex.
Yeah I have no problem paying for games now. (It was a diffrent thing in my early teenage years thou ;p).
Still I don't agree with TSW having a chance to gather all 'mature gamers'. I know plenty of gamers in their 30's or even older that would not play TSW because they just did not like how game itself (they tried beta, beta events, tried on firend account or bought box and had quit after few days - weeks). Take a note I said 'game', not setting.
Most people who tried game said that modern setting was nice thing, or at least were neutral.
Some even liked story and cutscenes, but some did not - since it's story cannot compare to good movie, book or even best story games like Planescape Torment or Fallout and even best story in mmorpg just ENDS.
So building game fundaments on it - is always gonna fail, since alot of people will play it like single player game - finish story and quit.
So sadly I don't share your opinion about TSW gathering ALL mature players.
Kudos for you that you found game you like though.
Yes..WoW ..is still a "kiddie" game..But I was refering to our newest kiddie game on the market
Why are they kiddie games? And why are not TSW a kiddie game?
Mind you I play(ed) all three of those and enjoyed them, but your look and labeling on other games/gamers just leaves a bad taste.
Not sure why I have to discuss this again, I feel that this has been answered in all the posts before..
I guess it is a matter of taste then, TSW feels and breaths both in terms of quests and setting a more mature aproach..The investigation missions speaks volumes of what I'm talking about.
But who am I to judge ..If you feel that WoW is just as mature, well..None will try to stop you in feeling that way.
Naturally WoW is the game "the masses" play, they have all sorts of community..
Originally posted by Rayshe My opinion is that the reason most companies start with a sub and move to F2P is to get their Creation costs back. Opening with F2P actually has a lower income. so prop up Sub+Box+Shop, Make costs back, Switch to F2P. Basic buisness.
You're right. But with a $35MM hit on the books in the 2nd quarter, that strongly suggests they didn't get their creation costs back; short by $35MM.
To those asking why a sub is reasonable, the answer is monthly content releases. No other game (AFAIK) rolls out new content on a monthly basis. Now. how long can they keep it up? Fair question. I'd hope they have monthly stuff in the can for six months to a year but I won't hold my breath on it, although Ragnar did say they have six years of content waiting to be rolled out.
And to those wondering about low sales, I'm scratching my head on that one too. There were over a million peeps in the beta and many millions involved in The Secret War game on Facebook. That more than 4/5ths of them walked away without even a box sale to try it out is pretty mind-boggling. Says a lot about the power of beta these days, and it says something (not good) about marketing.
Oh well, here's hoping that the diehard players can save their niche game.
I understand why there are F2P games and why people like them. I personally will not play them, and if I did I would never spend a cent in the store ever. That isn't me saying they shouldn't exist, in fact they should exist for the audience that wants them.
I can also easily understand the subscription market and why it exists and why people like. It is so easy because it is what I prefer and I only play games that work this way. It is my choice to do so and knowingly it limits my options.
I do think there are some major problems with how companies are approaching the subscription model and I've been saying this since before the F2P wave hit and changed how people do business.
1) Get rid of the box price or substantially lower it. I will not pay the box price anymore (I had no problem with it back in the day) and here is why: Too many companies have made absolute trash games. 10-15 years ago I felt confident with most companies abilities to produce a quality game so I never worried about paying the box price. But then too many companies started cutting corners and making utter crap. After getting burned a couple of times, box sales are a no go for me as I need to know this game is worth my money. This means for subscription games I only play them once they go to free trial and pay for subscription mode with no box price. Some games don't reach that point fast enough and have to shut down before they get that extra business. I would be willing to probably pay $20 for the box which included the first month and then pay a subscription from there but no way in hell I'll pay the $60.
The other issue is a game that wants to be P2P, has a subscription, and then wants to have a cash store. All I can say to a company like that is go f*&k yourself! You want to double bill me for the same game, I don't think so. The other associated evil with this is the non MMO games that launch with a $60 price tag and the same day as launch has a digitial content pack for $20. That should be in the game.
So in short. I love the subscription model and will continue to choose that over F2P as long as it exists. But companies have to be realistic. You can't be P2P and have an item store. You also shouldn't have a box price because with how much crap has come out everyone wants to try before they buy.
To those asking why a sub is reasonable, the answer is monthly content releases. No other game (AFAIK) rolls out new content on a monthly basis. Now. how long can they keep it up? Fair question. I'd hope they have monthly stuff in the can for six months to a year but I won't hold my breath on it, although Ragnar did say they have six years of content waiting to be rolled out.
Well Asheron's Call started that model 13 years ago and continues it to this day, free monthly content patches every month. So it is a model that has been done before. Rift also was doing that although I don't think they ever said for sure they would do it every single month but they pretty much were.
Also Asheron's Call does 2 big patches a year that are more like expansions with new skills, features etc and those are also free.
To those asking why a sub is reasonable, the answer is monthly content releases. No other game (AFAIK) rolls out new content on a monthly basis. Now. how long can they keep it up? Fair question. I'd hope they have monthly stuff in the can for six months to a year but I won't hold my breath on it, although Ragnar did say they have six years of content waiting to be rolled out.
Amusing statement. So they failed to deliver the 2nd content release already, that had been cooked up with the full staff. Sound very plausible they will fail to deliver any more content releases within their timeframe. I'm sorry, losing half of your staff will be seen as a negative here. It's even worse when we see that Sirillion STILL has a job, however the fact Famine doesn't, kinda balances it out. At least one of the rubbish employees got the boot, there's only a few changes the AoC community could be more happy about, one of them is Sirillion FIRED, other is Tarib FIRED.
At least Famine is gone, that is very good news overall, that guy should've been gone years ago.
Very interesting perspective you have on the "current generation of children on the internet", OP.
However, I would disagree on a lot of it, and also point to the adults on the internet and the annonymous behavior they indulge in.
Instead, though, let's focus on the up-and-coming generation and MMOs. Your daughters play MMOs, just as you do. My 14 year old plays an MMO, just like his Dad does.
My 12 and 14 year olds are also tabletop roleplayers, just like their parents are.
However, not a single 11-16 year old friend that my son or daughter has (the age of the friend depending upon which one of my kids we are discussing), nor any remote friends in that circle, play MMOs. They are playing the PS3 network or Xbox live. Not a single one of them have even tried WoW (trial version, and a heavily media marketed game), DCUO (DC Comics Universe F2P), or any MMO. They have no interest. Give them a controller, a headset, and their friends in the latest "Be a Soldier" Xbox game.
None of those friends have ever tried a tabletop RPG either, but that's a different thread.
MMOs have yet to find a way to really tap into the current "teenage" generation. And the industry faces extremely tough competition pulling them away from PS3 and (even more so) Xbox Live where all their friends from school are hanging out. And in this economy, don't believe for an instant most parents are just handing out a credit card to little "Timmy" to pay for an MMO when they are likely already paying for them to play Xbox with their friends.
In the two MMOs I currently subscribe to, and the others I have tried over the past two years . . . I haven't noticed all that many "kids" in chat.
Great read there
Nice to see that you play tabletop roleplay with your kids..
I have myself Game mastered 2 adventures in Pathfinder for my daughters and a few of their friends(all girls), they absolutly loved every minute of it.
I'm actually a tabletop RPG designer/writer and publisher. We're a licensee for Savage Worlds, I work as a Staff Editor for another company, and also freelance on the side with a third company.
Good times.
If you happen to be familiar with Savage Worlds, shoot me a PM and I'll tell you who we are. Please don't announce it publicly, though. I've actually had people from forums that disagreed with my "gamer opinions" bash our Publishing company in Tabletop RPG forums. So now I just don't openly say who I really am anymore on MMO forums. :-/
To those asking why a sub is reasonable, the answer is monthly content releases. No other game (AFAIK) rolls out new content on a monthly basis. Now. how long can they keep it up? Fair question. I'd hope they have monthly stuff in the can for six months to a year but I won't hold my breath on it, although Ragnar did say they have six years of content waiting to be rolled out.
Amusing statement. So they failed to deliver the 2nd content release already, that had been cooked up with the full staff. Sound very plausible they will fail to deliver any more content releases within their timeframe. I'm sorry, losing half of your staff will be seen as a negative here. It's even worse when we see that Sirillion STILL has a job, however the fact Famine doesn't, kinda balances it out. At least one of the rubbish employees got the boot, there's only a few changes the AoC community could be more happy about, one of them is Sirillion FIRED, other is Tarib FIRED.
At least Famine is gone, that is very good news overall, that guy should've been gone years ago.
? lol. Sounds more like you have a grudge against everything FC related, more than's healthy. Ok, you hate FC and want every project and everyone linked to it gone, we get it, the same tune as usual by those who built up their dislike/disappointment/hatred of a company and its games, and then never let go of it as long as they live -_-
Comments
Well, of course there is that market segment that won't touch a game without a F2P option. Truth of the matter, however, is that if the MMO industry was like it was pre-Turbine going F2P-Hybrid with DDO and LoTRO and blowing the doors off that market, those people would not be playing MMOs at all. They were simply not going to pay a monthly sub for a game, period.
And they've been around for well over the past decade. Heck, I'd hear that same reasoning from people way back when EQ1 ruled the roost: No thank you, I won't pay a subscription for a video game. And the MMO market had zero chance of ever tapping into their wallets, whereas with F2P-Hybrid they now at least have a chance of getting them to walk through the door and maybe drop some cash via the microtransactions. I can say that Turbine, SOE, and Cryptic all swear that it's worked for them.
Unfortunately, the main thing that hurt The Secret World is Funcom. Anarchy Online never had a great reputation for being stable, and its launch was one of the absolute worse of that era. Even after the dust had settled and the memories had faded, Funcom botched it all over again with Age of Conan. AoC didn't fade as fast from memory (not to mention the internet has grown since the Anarchy Online days, and AoC's issues are still well discussed). So, when Funcom was launching The Secret World . . . heck, I know several people that Beta tested it, enjoyed it, but have no faith in Funcom not to ultimately botch it, it go F2P, and the Box Price feel more like a charity donation than a well-made purchase (according to them) at that point. Too many people that I personally talked to (not to be confused as a representation of the MMO cosumer base at large) simply had no faith in Funcom and weren't willing to pull out the credit card for them again--- or even for the first time thanks to the reputation they have for game development and botched launches.
I have no doubt that if The Secret World was the best designed MMO to date, it would still be struggling like this out of the gate because of who the developing studio is. Unfortunately, after AO and AoC, I'm not sure Funcom can turn themselves around in the MMO industry anymore. SOE, a much bigger and more experienced studio, once the king of the MMO hill, couldn't even shed their reputation and past actions and turn it around-- and now their entire current and upcoming portfolio is all F2P-Hybrid.
You're deluding yourself because none of your statements have any facts or research to back up your claims.
MMO Gamers are not cheap Now a days (No seriously) and most of them are between ages 21 - 37 years old (Not all kids) P2P MMORPG's have not only cash shops but also subscriptions added onto them now. MMO gamers now pay more than they did 10 years ago in some MMORPG's. People in Age of Conan were paying a monthly sub fee plus purchasing Epic pvp armor just so they could contend in the brackets below lvl 80. If you didn't buy that stuff off the marketplace you basically were gimped in pvp below 80, because it was even better then the stuff you could get in dungeons.
I play TSW and love it, but the cash shop should not even be there. The developers make enough money off box sales and subscription fee's. Guild Wars 2 also does pump out just as many updates as any other P2P MMO. Your statement that it doesn't because it doesn't have a subscription fee is completly and utterly false.
Blaming all young people and gamers saying we are cheap because the Industry is not up to your standards is ignorance. Thats like me saying the reason why the Game Industry is bad is because of the gamers who fund the companys and invest in their shareholders so that they can continue to work as a company? What a stupid anology you have.
Lot of hate in that post, lol. Some of what you say I agree with, but in the end...the reason we see so many problems with gaming communities, is simply because gaming has gotten to big. 10 years ago gaming was the new thing, not its the big thing.
Incognito
www.incognito-gaming.us
"You're either with us or against us"
The largest group of gamers belong to the cathegorie ages between 21-37..I have no doubt what so ever that this is true..But I think we can safely say that there ís a growing categorie of gamers, one that practically has lived besides a computer and a TV game from birth.
The current largest group( of ages 21-37) of gamers above started the Internet era, but I think i can safely say that there is a new breed of gamers comming fast, and this group is growing by the minute.
Everyday, I meet kids belonging to this group, be it either on my daughters school or on the internet itself, many of them learn the anon phenomena of the internet very early. I play MMO's with my 2 daughters , they have played MMO's since they were 5 or 6 now they are 12,. I try to teach them the ethics of internet and inside gameworlds , so that they learn the value of behaving like nice human beiings, even thou they are anon.
But what an ugly mess they are met up with , kids that lie, cheat , scream and simply think they are the greatest on this planet. Naturally they have very little money to pay for their games. Wich in turn makes it perfect with the new FTP games all the free torrents etc, just as my points above state.
when you are met up with such an ugly farse, Is it odd that you have little faith in the "new breed of gamers!?.
Maybe I am just seeing the worst in this group , and maybe I'm totally wrong in my predictions, I sincerly hope I am wrong..
Only Time will tell
Very interesting perspective you have on the "current generation of children on the internet", OP.
However, I would disagree on a lot of it, and also point to the adults on the internet and the annonymous behavior they indulge in.
Instead, though, let's focus on the up-and-coming generation and MMOs. Your daughters play MMOs, just as you do. My 14 year old plays an MMO, just like his Dad does.
My 12 and 14 year olds are also tabletop roleplayers, just like their parents are.
However, not a single 11-16 year old friend that my son or daughter has (the age of the friend depending upon which one of my kids we are discussing), nor any remote friends in that circle, play MMOs. They are playing the PS3 network or Xbox live. Not a single one of them have even tried WoW (trial version, and a heavily media marketed game), DCUO (DC Comics Universe F2P), or any MMO. They have no interest. Give them a controller, a headset, and their friends in the latest "Be a Soldier" Xbox game.
None of those friends have ever tried a tabletop RPG either, but that's a different thread.
MMOs have yet to find a way to really tap into the current "teenage" generation. And the industry faces extremely tough competition pulling them away from PS3 and (even more so) Xbox Live where all their friends from school are hanging out. And in this economy, don't believe for an instant most parents are just handing out a credit card to little "Timmy" to pay for an MMO when they are likely already paying for them to play Xbox with their friends.
In the two MMOs I currently subscribe to, and the others I have tried over the past two years . . . I haven't noticed all that many "kids" in chat.
1. Software should NOT be free, Unless a developer wants it to be.
2. Skyrim requires a box purchase so it is not free.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
1. Software should NOT be free, Unless a developer wants it to be.
2. Skyrim requires a box purchase so it is not free.
My guess is that you totally misunderstodd these 2 points above.When i was talking abort Skyrim, i was refering to the torrent market, or software piracy, if you prefer. Go back and read it Again
So you approach TSW with a "Country Club" mentality? You think haveing a "gated" game is going to help it? Fact is, TSW is just not that good. It's not worthy of this tripple dip revenue model. If you want a game that filter's players by being more expensive, it better dam well be the pinnacle of the best that the industry has to offer.....EVER!
Maturity or mentality aside, this game is simply not worth the cost. I have been a long time paying customer of FunCom and so, I had recieved a closed beta invite. So, I tried it and was not overly impressed. It wasn't a bad game, it just didn't suit me. But what's more, is that I will not support FunCom's revenue model. It's that simple. Even if the game was "all that". If I am paying a sub, I want access to all the game offers. even if it's a pair of sungleasses. DOn't make me pay a boxed fee up froint, then pay 15 bucks a month and then put stuff I can't have in the Cash Shop. I ai't payin that. And you must also realize that a lot of the P2W models are also full of P2W brat kiddies who thing they are better players cuz mommy and daddy's CC makes them better? If TSW was worth it's revenue model, you'd have more of these too.
And if you think it's because I'm "cheap", I just spent a considerable amount of real money in GW2's cash shop because I felt it's woth it for me to do so. While what you say may be true in some cases, I think that your generalizations are a little over simplified and really don't apply to as many people as you think.
Edit:
I reread that, and I know it sounded like I am invalidating what you say, I guess, it's just the way I worded it. So I'm sorry. I do recognize what you are saying. I just don't think it' really applies to TSW as much as other issues do.
A month's subscription to TSW is (I think?) £11.50. Alternatively I can buy ME3, the AAA multi-award-winning RPG for £7.50
For a small publisher this is brilliant - release a game with minor publicity in March, put it on sale in May, repeat that sale a few times then release a new game in August. More income, faster, and free publicity for the sequel... awesome!
For a large publisher like EA, this is a nightmare. Their AAA games need to compete against those sales... As they release so many sales, they can pretty much guarantee every AAA release will be up against a discounted product! If they discount their own games then they'll be facing the nightmare of ME4 competing against a discounted dragon age 3...
In MMO terms - is a months subscription to TSW worth 1.5x ME3? How about 3xFar Cry I+II? or Assassin's creed I+II+brotherhood?
Game prices are being driven downwards by aggressive companies. Gamers aren't cheap... games are.
A company needs to base it's business model on the state of it's environment... rather than trying to change the environment to match it's business model.
Great read there
Nice to see that you play tabletop roleplay with your kids..
I have myself Game mastered 2 adventures in Pathfinder for my daughters and a few of their friends(all girls), they absolutly loved every minute of it.
Fair enough.
Yes you're right - I have no problem with paying sub for mmorpg.
Especially that I don't have time (and would not even want to If I had it) to play more than 1 mmorpg at a time - then really 15-20 $ per month is accpetable if that would mean that there are no other 'on-going' payments like CS, rmah and gold selling / plex.
Yeah I have no problem paying for games now. (It was a diffrent thing in my early teenage years thou ;p).
Still I don't agree with TSW having a chance to gather all 'mature gamers'. I know plenty of gamers in their 30's or even older that would not play TSW because they just did not like how game itself (they tried beta, beta events, tried on firend account or bought box and had quit after few days - weeks). Take a note I said 'game', not setting.
Most people who tried game said that modern setting was nice thing, or at least were neutral.
Some even liked story and cutscenes, but some did not - since it's story cannot compare to good movie, book or even best story games like Planescape Torment or Fallout and even best story in mmorpg just ENDS.
So building game fundaments on it - is always gonna fail, since alot of people will play it like single player game - finish story and quit.
So sadly I don't share your opinion about TSW gathering ALL mature players.
Kudos for you that you found game you like though.
Why are they kiddie games? And why are not TSW a kiddie game?
Mind you I play(ed) all three of those and enjoyed them, but your look and labeling on other games/gamers just leaves a bad taste.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Not sure why I have to discuss this again, I feel that this has been answered in all the posts before..
I guess it is a matter of taste then, TSW feels and breaths both in terms of quests and setting a more mature aproach..The investigation missions speaks volumes of what I'm talking about.
But who am I to judge ..If you feel that WoW is just as mature, well..None will try to stop you in feeling that way.
Naturally WoW is the game "the masses" play, they have all sorts of community..
You're right. But with a $35MM hit on the books in the 2nd quarter, that strongly suggests they didn't get their creation costs back; short by $35MM.
To those asking why a sub is reasonable, the answer is monthly content releases. No other game (AFAIK) rolls out new content on a monthly basis. Now. how long can they keep it up? Fair question. I'd hope they have monthly stuff in the can for six months to a year but I won't hold my breath on it, although Ragnar did say they have six years of content waiting to be rolled out.
And to those wondering about low sales, I'm scratching my head on that one too. There were over a million peeps in the beta and many millions involved in The Secret War game on Facebook. That more than 4/5ths of them walked away without even a box sale to try it out is pretty mind-boggling. Says a lot about the power of beta these days, and it says something (not good) about marketing.
Oh well, here's hoping that the diehard players can save their niche game.
Here is my take on the industry.
I understand why there are F2P games and why people like them. I personally will not play them, and if I did I would never spend a cent in the store ever. That isn't me saying they shouldn't exist, in fact they should exist for the audience that wants them.
I can also easily understand the subscription market and why it exists and why people like. It is so easy because it is what I prefer and I only play games that work this way. It is my choice to do so and knowingly it limits my options.
I do think there are some major problems with how companies are approaching the subscription model and I've been saying this since before the F2P wave hit and changed how people do business.
1) Get rid of the box price or substantially lower it. I will not pay the box price anymore (I had no problem with it back in the day) and here is why: Too many companies have made absolute trash games. 10-15 years ago I felt confident with most companies abilities to produce a quality game so I never worried about paying the box price. But then too many companies started cutting corners and making utter crap. After getting burned a couple of times, box sales are a no go for me as I need to know this game is worth my money. This means for subscription games I only play them once they go to free trial and pay for subscription mode with no box price. Some games don't reach that point fast enough and have to shut down before they get that extra business. I would be willing to probably pay $20 for the box which included the first month and then pay a subscription from there but no way in hell I'll pay the $60.
The other issue is a game that wants to be P2P, has a subscription, and then wants to have a cash store. All I can say to a company like that is go f*&k yourself! You want to double bill me for the same game, I don't think so. The other associated evil with this is the non MMO games that launch with a $60 price tag and the same day as launch has a digitial content pack for $20. That should be in the game.
So in short. I love the subscription model and will continue to choose that over F2P as long as it exists. But companies have to be realistic. You can't be P2P and have an item store. You also shouldn't have a box price because with how much crap has come out everyone wants to try before they buy.
Well Asheron's Call started that model 13 years ago and continues it to this day, free monthly content patches every month. So it is a model that has been done before. Rift also was doing that although I don't think they ever said for sure they would do it every single month but they pretty much were.
Also Asheron's Call does 2 big patches a year that are more like expansions with new skills, features etc and those are also free.
I'm actually a tabletop RPG designer/writer and publisher. We're a licensee for Savage Worlds, I work as a Staff Editor for another company, and also freelance on the side with a third company.
Good times.
If you happen to be familiar with Savage Worlds, shoot me a PM and I'll tell you who we are. Please don't announce it publicly, though. I've actually had people from forums that disagreed with my "gamer opinions" bash our Publishing company in Tabletop RPG forums. So now I just don't openly say who I really am anymore on MMO forums. :-/
? lol. Sounds more like you have a grudge against everything FC related, more than's healthy. Ok, you hate FC and want every project and everyone linked to it gone, we get it, the same tune as usual by those who built up their dislike/disappointment/hatred of a company and its games, and then never let go of it as long as they live -_-