Originally posted by MMOExposed Iam trying, and I am trying, no matter what, I just cant find anything positive out of such a design. I was told, that FFA/FL is suppose to be exciting and fun, but even with a open mind to the concept, I still dont get this "Rush" that people speak of, that is so darn fun.
This concept of FFA/FL imo needs to be banished from all future MMO titles.
Its like basically giving INTERNET PEOPLE, the keys to ruin the INTERNET for everybody. Imagine if this forum ran like that. No mods, just allow people to post, and say whatever the hell they want. You really believe this site would still be civil? You would basically be opening the doors for the forum to turn into a hell house of internet troll. I call it, "Controll".
this is terrible gameplay design, and I want to see it go.
Look at Guild Wars 2 for moment. the main appeal about GW2's PvE events, is that people play together and help each other out.
But in a FFA/FL environment, this isnt the case, because most of the time NOBODY CAN TRUST EACH OTHER, other than guild members. If I only wanted to play with Guild Members, well I could also do that in a Non-FFA/FL environment. This is basically counterproductive when compared to what people here seem to be so excited over the PvE in GW2 having people work together instead of against each other.
Dont get me wrong, PvP is fun, but FFA/FL is like a lack of control of the internet community. Again like a forum, without mods. PvP also needs control in place. This is why Factions are so popular in MMOs now days. Because it grants players a larger audience of players outside of Guilds, that they can trust to play along side, instead of playing minute to minute looking over your back for gank squads trying to steal all your hard earned work you grinded for.
terrible design. FFA/FL simply needs to go.
Lets be real here,,, even in sandbox MMO, what percentage of the game's community are even PvPers/Red-Names compared to the number of players who arent?
seems like most people have more interesting activities to do other than ganking people all the time.
so again, whats the point of FFA/FL in the future of MMOs? Its such a thing of the past, and really needs to just go.
its funny because i cant understand why people like capture the flag 10 on 10 mini games so much. i think those need to go, nothing worse than a bunch of carebears fighting it out in a safe little instance then thinking they are some bad ass pvpers because of some stupid ranking for safe pvp.
nothing worse than playing a game and having some idiot run his mouth or try to kill steal your mobs and you cant do anything about it because your on a carebear server. to me that is worse than being ganked by 5 people.
stop trying to understand somthing you dont like, there is a place for FFA pvp in MMOs. infact i wish games would only make one server for FFA pvp when they come out because there are way to many people who " think " they like real pvp then quit later and the pvp servers lose population. if they only made one then the population would be fine once we weed out the carebears and send them back to their mini games.
Originally posted by TruthXHurts You non FFA types look at FFA pvp as a hinderance. It slows down your gear grind and inhibits your ability to feel like the ultimate hero. You don't care about the challenge. The journey is not nearly as important as the reward to you. You can't stand the thought of someone taking advantage of your sloppy tactics. You cringe at the thought of losing your hard earned pixels to an opportunist. You shy away from challenging games, and simply want to focus on that juicy carrot that hangs in front of you.If you can't see the similarity between a NPC with advanced AI and a PVP then there is no point in talking to you. Both are very much alike. You don't want a challenge. Gaming to you is not anything more than a way to feel better about yourself by vanquishing millions of brain dead pixels to procure pixels to make you "better". You don't want anything to stand in the way of your mindless treadmill progression.
You would have a point if MMORPG were at all balanced. Playing Red Dead Redemption's PvP for the first time is a challenge, because it's possible to win your very first time out. My friend made it to #7in the world in Red Dead's PvP rankings on the PS3. He killed a lot of people, and got killed a lot. He started with a pistol and a knife. He wouldn't step foot in an OWPvP game. It has nothing to do with the challenge of the game.
But MMORPG OWPvP isn't like that, is it? It doesn't matter if relative power levels are based on skill progression, item progression, level progression or all three. In MMORPG OWPvP, what you get is one side is always vastly over powered compared to the other side. It's not a challenge, it's just repetitive dying until you can get enough power to matter. That's not a challenge, that's just another tedious grind.
Better PvE AI is a side issue, and not relevant. Lots of people would agree that better PvE AI would be good. That doesn't mean it would be like OWPvP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by MMOExposed Iam trying, and I am trying, no matter what, I just cant find anything positive out of such a design. I was told, that FFA/FL is suppose to be exciting and fun, but even with a open mind to the concept, I still dont get this "Rush" that people speak of, that is so darn fun.
This concept of FFA/FL imo needs to be banished from all future MMO titles.
I take it you never played any good FFA PVP games.
And I want instances and quest grinding and WoW striken from MMO design forever, doesn't make it happen.
First equipment needs to be cheap and commonly replaced. Look at UO and SWG you bought the same basic weapons over and over again so losing one in pvp wasn't a big deal. Also while there are still some super weapons in those games you rarily ever used them and when you did you did so in a group.
Secondly the world needs to be HUGE. There needs to be lots of room to roam and well hide. FFA pvp doesn't work in the current "mmos" because greifers know where your going to be.
Last thing you need to make it work is that you need some place to store your stuff so that when you die and are looted you only lose what your carring and not everything.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
This concept of FFA/FL imo needs to be banished from all future MMO titles.
Its like basically giving INTERNET PEOPLE, the keys to ruin the INTERNET for everybody. Imagine if this forum ran like that. No mods, just allow people to post, and say whatever the hell they want. You really believe this site would still be civil? You would basically be opening the doors for the forum to turn into a hell house of internet troll. I call it, "Controll".
FFA PvP with Full Loot alone is not a concept. But you can start with it and design a good game around it.
And your Forum example lacks.. there is no PvP involved.
Lets say, you could vote against each other (20 votes - post deleted, 100 votes - user banned). That would be FFA pvp.
The point of a ffa pvp with full loot environment is to give the players the power to control themself, it is even one key principle of it. Of course, if you just create a world, pull in ffa pvp and full loot will not do it. You have to deliver the player more tools to controll themself. And then of course a metagame arise out of those, a bunch of players try to control other players or a territory, force their rules up to others. Thats one point.
And the story about full loot is a story about ingame economy(you cant compare GW2 withit, with more or less no or almost no player economy at all). It means that progression is not so much levels or gear, progression are assets. (territory you control, like mines, farming spots, plantages, towns/tax income or what ever you can think of, and of course things you have with you, your money, your gear).
And all of this have to be on the move. You can take it from your enemies, you can defend your asserts, you can destroy it, or you can build up. This brings risk vs. reward and target to accomplish.
And that brings us to the next point. FFA PvP with full loot in a themepark environment will never do it. Its just crap, a design fault. Not thoughtout. So you have to bring the sandbox into it, to be able to build up and to destroy things. To make designated spots of interest, like a rich mine, or a good farming spots, where settlements will be valuable, where it is worth to protect and/or conquer the land.
But good designed those spots will be diverse and spread around the world, so that not any group/clan whatever can control all of this, and trading becomes necessary. (without fast and secure travel -> teleports) You have to trade between far away locations, to get the most win out of it. And that will open up possibilities for others to assault your caravan, and/or you have to take actions to counter this, like hire some mercenary or protect with your clan.
All those are elements to create content, player driven content. You dont need this in a themepark, but on the other side the content is gone within 3 month and you wont play it anyway any longer, arnt you?
The problem with a good ffa pvp full loot sandbox is, that you have to plan ahead a lot of possibilities, and give the players the right tools to deal with every possible problem, which may arise from the actions of other players, or the actions of some jerks, which try to ruin the game for everyone. As long as you give players the appropriate means to solve their problems, with the world, and with other players, they will do it.
And the most games didnt give enough tools to the player, the didnt balance the pros and cons of protecting vs. attacking, from risk vs. reward, and therefore they lack in a lot of regards.
And EvE(although it is not completely full loot nor completely ffa, but almost or good enough to not take away the possibilities to create content through pvp, through looting and conquest, through trading and so on) is the best example of such a game, but by far not the best game possible. The truth is almost all ffa /w full loot games up to now are trash in execution and design, half assed designed(gameplay and gametool wise) and in most cases even more horrible execution (bug ridden, poor graphic and so on).
Of course, such a game is one where you can lose everything with in the twinkling of a eye, but you can win that much more, and the expirience is much more deep. Is it a game for everyone? Well.. why not... Ok, most probably not for everyone.. a lot of ppl cant stand to lose anything. But a lot of ppl are even nowadays interested in a game like that.
Games like DayZ, and it is everything but complete in this regards, but wil give you nevertheless a imagination what could possible.
Look.. as good as a themepark is, it will ever be predictable, and it will be always be limited in regards of content. But a true ffa pvp sandbox game, good designed and executed will never be predictable nor limited in regards of content. And that is the reason why i predict that EvE will outlive WoW. Mark my words, in ten years noone will play WoW anymore, but Eve is still alive.
I been in the situation many times where I was being attacked or chased down by gankers that attack me while gathering/crafting/PvE.
Not once did I have a positive feel to the situation. Only Anger, since there was no way to avoid them, and nothing I could do about it. All my work I grinded for was gone.
Nothing to be excited about. I see no fun in this. You and others keep mentioning this "Rush of Adrenaline" but still dont see the joy and fun from this. Rush or not, I dont see how this can be fun. Because it simply isnt, unless you have some kind of mental disorder were you feel joy and happiness from your own pain and suffering. thats the only way I could see something positive out of this FFA/FL rush you speak of.
Well then you should't play games like that. Others find such play enjoyable. You, however, do not and should never play a FFA/FL game.
I don't see anything positive about getting a tatoo on your neck, but I'm not about to declare no one should have one.
There really isn't anything more to say on the topic.
Originally posted by Brixon I don't have a problem with FFA/FL games, but then I don't play them either. If people like it, then let them have a place to get that fix. The only problem I have with FFA/FL is that it seems that most developers seem to think that it has to be part of any sandbox style game. I thought SWG had a good system for open pvp with the overt/covert rebel and imperial alignments.
It is a little bit the other way around. You cant have a good FFA/FL game without being a sandbox.
But.. ok, in the strict sense a sandbox have to be more or less ffapvp/FL. Why? Quit simple if you can just build up, but not destroy things, your sandbox is at one point or the other finished, and static, and not anymore a sandbox. Just if you can do both, build up and destroy it will be always a sandbox. So yes, actually you need FFA/FL.
Originally posted by TruthXHurts You non FFA types look at FFA pvp as a hinderance. It slows down your gear grind and inhibits your ability to feel like the ultimate hero. You don't care about the challenge. The journey is not nearly as important as the reward to you. You can't stand the thought of someone taking advantage of your sloppy tactics. You cringe at the thought of losing your hard earned pixels to an opportunist. You shy away from challenging games, and simply want to focus on that juicy carrot that hangs in front of you.
If you can't see the similarity between a NPC with advanced AI and a PVP then there is no point in talking to you. Both are very much alike. You don't want a challenge. Gaming to you is not anything more than a way to feel better about yourself by vanquishing millions of brain dead pixels to procure pixels to make you "better". You don't want anything to stand in the way of your mindless treadmill progression.
You would have a point if MMORPG were at all balanced. Playing Red Dead Redemption's PvP for the first time is a challenge, because it's possible to win your very first time out. My friend made it to #7in the world in Red Dead's PvP rankings on the PS3. He killed a lot of people, and got killed a lot. He started with a pistol and a knife. He wouldn't step foot in an OWPvP game. It has nothing to do with the challenge of the game.
But MMORPG OWPvP isn't like that, is it? It doesn't matter if relative power levels are based on skill progression, item progression, level progression or all three. In MMORPG OWPvP, what you get is one side is always vastly over powered compared to the other side. It's not a challenge, it's just repetitive dying until you can get enough power to matter. That's not a challenge, that's just another tedious grind.
Better PvE AI is a side issue, and not relevant. Lots of people would agree that better PvE AI would be good. That doesn't mean it would be like OWPvP.
that is a great example of not thinking outside the "box", don't worry I know WoW-like games stupify you, but that is the beauty of FFA games, you do not have to be an all conquering "hero" to have fun....it is your narrow mindness that is limiting your fun in such games, because in WoW like games you are either owning that mob or you do not, there is no other dimention. In FFA games, the game server is your oyster so to speak, cliched yes, but once you open up your brain you will appreciate the possibilities in how you can have fun without outright "owning" everyone...that is not the point.
Comments
its funny because i cant understand why people like capture the flag 10 on 10 mini games so much. i think those need to go, nothing worse than a bunch of carebears fighting it out in a safe little instance then thinking they are some bad ass pvpers because of some stupid ranking for safe pvp.
nothing worse than playing a game and having some idiot run his mouth or try to kill steal your mobs and you cant do anything about it because your on a carebear server. to me that is worse than being ganked by 5 people.
stop trying to understand somthing you dont like, there is a place for FFA pvp in MMOs. infact i wish games would only make one server for FFA pvp when they come out because there are way to many people who " think " they like real pvp then quit later and the pvp servers lose population. if they only made one then the population would be fine once we weed out the carebears and send them back to their mini games.
You would have a point if MMORPG were at all balanced. Playing Red Dead Redemption's PvP for the first time is a challenge, because it's possible to win your very first time out. My friend made it to #7 in the world in Red Dead's PvP rankings on the PS3. He killed a lot of people, and got killed a lot. He started with a pistol and a knife. He wouldn't step foot in an OWPvP game. It has nothing to do with the challenge of the game.
But MMORPG OWPvP isn't like that, is it? It doesn't matter if relative power levels are based on skill progression, item progression, level progression or all three. In MMORPG OWPvP, what you get is one side is always vastly over powered compared to the other side. It's not a challenge, it's just repetitive dying until you can get enough power to matter. That's not a challenge, that's just another tedious grind.
Better PvE AI is a side issue, and not relevant. Lots of people would agree that better PvE AI would be good. That doesn't mean it would be like OWPvP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I take it you never played any good FFA PVP games.
And I want instances and quest grinding and WoW striken from MMO design forever, doesn't make it happen.
FFA Full Loot is fine if you have three things:
First equipment needs to be cheap and commonly replaced. Look at UO and SWG you bought the same basic weapons over and over again so losing one in pvp wasn't a big deal. Also while there are still some super weapons in those games you rarily ever used them and when you did you did so in a group.
Secondly the world needs to be HUGE. There needs to be lots of room to roam and well hide. FFA pvp doesn't work in the current "mmos" because greifers know where your going to be.
Last thing you need to make it work is that you need some place to store your stuff so that when you die and are looted you only lose what your carring and not everything.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
FFA PvP with Full Loot alone is not a concept. But you can start with it and design a good game around it.
And your Forum example lacks.. there is no PvP involved.
Lets say, you could vote against each other (20 votes - post deleted, 100 votes - user banned). That would be FFA pvp.
The point of a ffa pvp with full loot environment is to give the players the power to control themself, it is even one key principle of it. Of course, if you just create a world, pull in ffa pvp and full loot will not do it. You have to deliver the player more tools to controll themself. And then of course a metagame arise out of those, a bunch of players try to control other players or a territory, force their rules up to others. Thats one point.
And the story about full loot is a story about ingame economy(you cant compare GW2 withit, with more or less no or almost no player economy at all). It means that progression is not so much levels or gear, progression are assets. (territory you control, like mines, farming spots, plantages, towns/tax income or what ever you can think of, and of course things you have with you, your money, your gear).
And all of this have to be on the move. You can take it from your enemies, you can defend your asserts, you can destroy it, or you can build up. This brings risk vs. reward and target to accomplish.
And that brings us to the next point. FFA PvP with full loot in a themepark environment will never do it. Its just crap, a design fault. Not thoughtout. So you have to bring the sandbox into it, to be able to build up and to destroy things. To make designated spots of interest, like a rich mine, or a good farming spots, where settlements will be valuable, where it is worth to protect and/or conquer the land.
But good designed those spots will be diverse and spread around the world, so that not any group/clan whatever can control all of this, and trading becomes necessary. (without fast and secure travel -> teleports) You have to trade between far away locations, to get the most win out of it. And that will open up possibilities for others to assault your caravan, and/or you have to take actions to counter this, like hire some mercenary or protect with your clan.
All those are elements to create content, player driven content. You dont need this in a themepark, but on the other side the content is gone within 3 month and you wont play it anyway any longer, arnt you?
The problem with a good ffa pvp full loot sandbox is, that you have to plan ahead a lot of possibilities, and give the players the right tools to deal with every possible problem, which may arise from the actions of other players, or the actions of some jerks, which try to ruin the game for everyone. As long as you give players the appropriate means to solve their problems, with the world, and with other players, they will do it.
And the most games didnt give enough tools to the player, the didnt balance the pros and cons of protecting vs. attacking, from risk vs. reward, and therefore they lack in a lot of regards.
And EvE(although it is not completely full loot nor completely ffa, but almost or good enough to not take away the possibilities to create content through pvp, through looting and conquest, through trading and so on) is the best example of such a game, but by far not the best game possible. The truth is almost all ffa /w full loot games up to now are trash in execution and design, half assed designed(gameplay and gametool wise) and in most cases even more horrible execution (bug ridden, poor graphic and so on).
Of course, such a game is one where you can lose everything with in the twinkling of a eye, but you can win that much more, and the expirience is much more deep. Is it a game for everyone? Well.. why not... Ok, most probably not for everyone.. a lot of ppl cant stand to lose anything. But a lot of ppl are even nowadays interested in a game like that.
Games like DayZ, and it is everything but complete in this regards, but wil give you nevertheless a imagination what could possible.
Look.. as good as a themepark is, it will ever be predictable, and it will be always be limited in regards of content. But a true ffa pvp sandbox game, good designed and executed will never be predictable nor limited in regards of content. And that is the reason why i predict that EvE will outlive WoW. Mark my words, in ten years noone will play WoW anymore, but Eve is still alive.
Well then you should't play games like that. Others find such play enjoyable. You, however, do not and should never play a FFA/FL game.
I don't see anything positive about getting a tatoo on your neck, but I'm not about to declare no one should have one.
There really isn't anything more to say on the topic.
It is a little bit the other way around. You cant have a good FFA/FL game without being a sandbox.
But.. ok, in the strict sense a sandbox have to be more or less ffapvp/FL. Why? Quit simple if you can just build up, but not destroy things, your sandbox is at one point or the other finished, and static, and not anymore a sandbox. Just if you can do both, build up and destroy it will be always a sandbox. So yes, actually you need FFA/FL.
that is a great example of not thinking outside the "box", don't worry I know WoW-like games stupify you, but that is the beauty of FFA games, you do not have to be an all conquering "hero" to have fun....it is your narrow mindness that is limiting your fun in such games, because in WoW like games you are either owning that mob or you do not, there is no other dimention. In FFA games, the game server is your oyster so to speak, cliched yes, but once you open up your brain you will appreciate the possibilities in how you can have fun without outright "owning" everyone...that is not the point.
What this topic is even about?
Some people don't like FFA full with or without loot pvp and some like.
If you don't like this kind of pvp - just simple DO NOT PLAY a game that have this system.
If you like this system and ALSO don't like games that don't have ffa pvp then DO NOT PLAY games that don't have it.
People who like only closed e-spoty instanced pvp and people who like open pvp will NEVER understand each other.
So stop whining and just play games that have / don't have what you like / don't like.
It is not like there are just 2 mmorpg's on the market.
Take advantage there are alot of mmorpg's , cause that is gonna change in future.
Anyway problem solved.
Fuck...