Originally posted by Drachasor When a level 50 guy shows up in the level 10 zone, you can't defend yourself. You're dead. It's not about being "too much of a challenge", but rather open world PvP encourages people to behave like jerks. I don't like that kind of "gameplay."
"Grievers" run amok in open world PvP. I had some friends that left PvP server's because they got tired of being ganked. People have severe issues where they get intense pleasure when one greives another, there are the kids that beat helpless animals or are just plain cruel to others.
If my name didn't show up in bright red letters where someone could just hit tab and chase me down on some 210% flying mount, and I had an actual chance to escape even after dying once it really wouldn't be a big deal. As long as I didn't lose anything.
Thats why SWTOR was a good place for open world pvp, except now that it's bannable if you over 5 lvls which is silly because there's no risk involved at all.
However I do not agree with the current version of dayz for many reasons. With the expliots ingame now a person could see you change servers respawn at higher ground and snipe you breaking the game's design and only you get punished. Now that is not for me. To many times you get an Alt-f4 or somone hacks to win against you to keep you from surviving.
I liked other games take on OWPVP like Ro, or Lineage 2s because the weaker person could actually get away with luck.
It all depends on the game and how it's setup.
If everyone has a fair shake at get go then I'm all for OWPVP, howver if their are tons of exploits inviled so it's one sided w/ spawn camping with no end in sight (Ilum). Then I do have a problem with it.
I don't hate it, but after my first MMO PvP has always followed the trend of being an unbalanced gankfest where gear and level makes the difference between winning and losing.
So until a good PvP game comes about with a good combat system (Like Tera's or GW2 with dodging), Balanced, with purpose and a good reward/risk system that makes going out into the world valuable and risky at the same time which forms for great alliances and rivalries where gear won't make a difference but your skill, I won't be much for it again.
Remember... all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more.
Hey guys - (just to start so no flaming occurs) i will be playing gw2 so I am not a hater. I just have a more general question.
Why is it that people do not like true open world pvp, where you can gank anyone while they are questing etc. I enjoyed it in wow while it existed (vanilla-slightly BC), Rift was good, and currently gaming in Tera.
Is it the annoyance of being ganked and not being able to defend yourself. Does it provide to much of a challenge. Or is our generation just lazy and prefer to sit in a town and just que for stuff.
I personally like the OWPVP and being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing .
what are peoples thoughts on this?
why do i hate open world pvp ? my response in 1 picture
edit : somebody can provide me a link to the threat "resume a game with 1 picture" ? i cant find it
I have nothing against open world PvP in and of itself..
But GW2 would not bode well with an open pvp system in place...
However i would love it if anet made an open world pvp litterbox server of the most nasty variety that pvpers could reside in and others could guest to, it would be a lot of fun..;)
If GW2 had an owpvp server with a correct set of balance rules then i would purchase this game.
But
It's been done before in pve games, the last time was in Age of Conan and while it was fun the server soon became a ghost town, but in my opinion it was due to the lack of gamers playing AoC, most pvp AoC players from the old pvp servers had already moved on to new games.
Originally posted by Drachasor When a level 50 guy shows up in the level 10 zone, you can't defend yourself. You're dead. It's not about being "too much of a challenge", but rather open world PvP encourages people to behave like jerks. I don't like that kind of "gameplay."
"Grievers" run amok in open world PvP. I had some friends that left PvP server's because they got tired of being ganked. People have severe issues where they get intense pleasure when one greives another, there are the kids that beat helpless animals or are just plain cruel to others.
It's like you've never played in a game that puts in rules and limits this type of behavior. These griefers you guys live in constant fear of are actually not that numerous. From personal experience, I've been griefed maybe a handful of times in over a decade of pvp gaming. What you guys are afraid is not the standard experience in an OWPVP game.
And if you think you'll be safe from griefing in any other game, you're wrong. There are usually plenty of ways someone can be a jerk and ruin your day, whether by node stealing, boss camping, training monsters onto you, etc. GW2 has done a lot to limit that behavior, so the non-pvp griefing will be extremely limited. I don't know if it will be gone completely, though.
But back to griefing in open world pvp games... It happens far less often than your fears have built up.
The answer, in my opinion, is already in your original post. The word gank. May be fun for the jerk nozzles doing the ganking, not always so hawt for the people getting ganked. If you're allowing a big part of your playerbase to be griefed like that openly then that playerbase goes somewhere else.
Why do people not like it? I know I don't like it because it's not in my plan. If I want to go out and do this quest, check out that area, etc etc. That's what I want to do. I don't want to have to fight every larry curly and moe along the way who thinks they're awesome or trying to take the stress out of their sad lives by being big bullies in a video game.
I'm sure there are games that support open world pvp as a big deal, at least there should be, it's definitely got a big enough following, but it has no place in a game like GW2 really. Just my two cents tho.
(i) It takes some control out of the hands of the player. Whilst some love the idea of random encounters and the unexpected, some just want to get on with exactly what they want to be doing at any given moment without anything unexpected happening. I can completely understand why they would want that and this is perhaps the biggest reasons for some not enjoying the prospect of OWPVP
(ii) It allows for the potential for extreme lopsided combat. Although you get lopsided combat in RvR lakes, in arenas and in general pvp anyway.
At the end of the day people just enjoy different things, I do though think it is one of those "hot" topics which means that people will bang on about it even though they have little (or no) actual experience of it.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Personally, I enjoy open world PVP for the simple reason that it adds immersion through uncertainty. IMO, this uncertainty makes even mundane tasks like gathering a little more exciting.
Regarding people who complain about always getting ganked, I just don't see it. I've been playing MMO's for over a decade almost exclusively on PvP servers and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've been griefed by an unreasonably higher level player.
I like that GW2 addresses the issue through huge PvP zones which should appease most players on both sides of the argument.
Originally posted by Drachasor When a level 50 guy shows up in the level 10 zone, you can't defend yourself. You're dead. It's not about being "too much of a challenge", but rather open world PvP encourages people to behave like jerks. I don't like that kind of "gameplay."
Inaccessible. Going to places takes forever, and you almost always need a group to do anything worthwhile for fear of being ganked.
No challenge. I don't get anything out of ganking. Players that I may encounter may be
engaging PvE
be of lower level than me
be part of a smaller group than me
In none of those cases a smart enemy would not willingly fight me so thee run a way and I will be catching and killing them whenever I can just to relieve boredom, but I do not get any enjoyment out of it.
The power difference and size of groups also introduce a "non-skill factor" to the equation. They effectively diminish my ability to affect the outcome. It is out of my hands, and therefore I have no interest in the fight. I can't get a sense of accomplishment if I won due to one of the stated non-skill factors.
The nature of open world PvP is also the sort which puts a heavy emphasis on maneuvering pre-fight rather than the fight itself. Often the fight is merely a formality for the reasons stated before: player numbers and power difference. I have little interest in this shuffling, this "cat 'n' mouse game". It leads to combat as often as not, and even when things escalate to a battle, the outcome is often very underwhelming: the battle is one-sided and pre-determined.
TL;DR: Inaccessibility, no challenge, non-skill factors, and disappointing fights.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Ok I have calmed down a bit. I think the best answer for you is that mass of players loathe OWPVP because of ganking. Every game that does not protect at least part of the world (server, level, etc.) has not held the mass market. I include Eve Online with that statement. I cannot find the link but I remember CCP doing a study and finding that the majority of players stayed in 1.0 space. That was fine for the 3 months I was in the game - then came Hulkameggon and I quit. Eve could have millions of players instead of the hundreds of thousands if it made a protected pve environment. Bottom line - OWPVP is not a mass market draw.
And, if you think that I am off, notice that the soon to be king of the pvp mmos, GW2, does NOT have OWPVP.
If you really want OWPVP check out almost every Asian AAA MMO. It is almost a rule in that market.
Originally posted by TheScavenger I personally really like open world PvP games. I remember going to Durotar, and tricking people to turn on their PvP and killing them over and over and over. This was a PvP server btw, but the low level zones were "safe" areas...but like EVE, nowhere is safe. It was hilarious the rage I would get in both chat and private messages lol...was so worth it
Originally posted by Drachasor When a level 50 guy shows up in the level 10 zone, you can't defend yourself. You're dead. It's not about being "too much of a challenge", but rather open world PvP encourages people to behave like jerks. I don't like that kind of "gameplay."
"Grievers" run amok in open world PvP. I had some friends that left PvP server's because they got tired of being ganked. People have severe issues where they get intense pleasure when one greives another, there are the kids that beat helpless animals or are just plain cruel to others.
It's like you've never played in a game that puts in rules and limits this type of behavior. These griefers you guys live in constant fear of are actually not that numerous. From personal experience, I've been griefed maybe a handful of times in over a decade of pvp gaming. What you guys are afraid is not the standard experience in an OWPVP game.
And if you think you'll be safe from griefing in any other game, you're wrong. There are usually plenty of ways someone can be a jerk and ruin your day, whether by node stealing, boss camping, training monsters onto you, etc. GW2 has done a lot to limit that behavior, so the non-pvp griefing will be extremely limited. I don't know if it will be gone completely, though.
But back to griefing in open world pvp games... It happens far less often than your fears have built up.
OWPVP system needs a proper checks and balance though which is noneexistant is say like WoW. UO I hear had some good checks and balance and so does EVE to a degree. Can't say if that applies to other MMOs. It certainly is not fun when you have people so overpowered that one is a fool to even bother trying to resist or who are so decked out in PvP gear that they would decimate any moderately gear toon of superior skill.
My thoughts are: that if someone enjoys 'being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing ." it usually means that person had a rough childhood where they were never in control and they need to feel superior in the safety of a virtual world where they feel they have control. Usually they have been picked on most of their lives and cower in real confrontation. Especially those who constantly 'mess with' those of lower level.
But again that's just my thoughts on 'someone'....
I think this only applies to those of age 30+ that still live in their parents or grandmas basement. Just because you go fight someone thats gathering, unless ur max lvl and there lvl 5 there is nothing wrong with that specially in a OWPVP environment. Its the people that do this jumping on people then cry when they get killed that have had rough lives.
That is what I meant, the 'bullies' who only pick on the lower level and run from their own level... My apologies I kinda added that at the end as a side note.
Inaccessible. Going to places takes forever, and you almost always need a group to do anything worthwhile for fear of being ganked.
No challenge. I don't get anything out of ganking. Players that I may encounter may be
engaging PvE
be of lower level than me
be part of a smaller group than me
In none of those cases a smart enemy would not willingly fight me so thee run a way and I will be catching and killing them whenever I can just to relieve boredom, but I do not get any enjoyment out of it.
The power difference and size of groups also introduce a "non-skill factor" to the equation. They effectively diminish my ability to affect the outcome. It is out of my hands, and therefore I have no interest in the fight. I can't get a sense of accomplishment if I won due to one of the stated non-skill factors.
The nature of open world PvP is also the sort which puts a heavy emphasis on maneuvering pre-fight rather than the fight itself. Often the fight is merely a formality for the reasons stated before: player numbers and power difference. I have little interest in this shuffling, this "cat 'n' mouse game". It leads to combat as often as not, and even when things escalate to a battle, the outcome is often very underwhelming: the battle is one-sided and pre-determined.
TL;DR: Inaccessibility, no challenge, non-skill factors, and disappointing fights.
This isn't an attempt at a rebuttal, just a genuine question. Is it not the case that the factors you have listed there are actually not restricted to true OWPVP games but are also an issue within large/very large map/lake pvp situation ala WAR/GW2?
Clearly level disparity should be less of an issue in that case but as for "cat and mouse" and player number disparities, isn't it a similar situation?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Regarding people who complain about always getting ganked, I just don't see it. I've been playing MMO's for over a decade almost exclusively on PvP servers and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've been griefed by an unreasonably higher level player.
nah, I don't buy that. Not saying you are lying but it's not representative of what really goes on.
keep in mind that when Lineage 3 comes out i'll be one of the first in line. I'm seriously thinking of dropping my Tera PvE character for my pvp character. I enjoy ffa pvp.
However, I've witnessed people getting ganked far more than some people in this thread are saying that they've experienced it.
Heck, in Lineage 2, for a solid week, some high levels were going to Talking Island and just obliterating all the new players. Players kept asking us higher levelled players to come to talking Island and patrol it.
In Aion alone I was killed about 10 times by not only higher levle players but a mob of them. And I've killed an equal amount of gankers who were preying on lower level areas.
In Tera I had to jump in and take on two attackers who were ganging up on one player. Took out one and the other high tailed it out of there to a ctiy, with me in pursuit. Such was the bravery there.
There is a group of people who love to go into low level areas or just wait until someone is low in health as they pve and then swoop in.
I personally don't care because it's no skin off my nose. But there are people who just wanted to have a calm, enjoyable gaming experience in a controlled environment and don't want to deal with being ganked and then, in some cases, being insulted.
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I don't "hate" OWPvP. I am just completely indifferent to it.
If I see a gearbased game with forced PvP I simply take my money to a different game. Most people seem to do just that and the end result is that the games that support griefing ends up underdeveloped without funds.
When there is no cannonfodder ingame the griefers leave as well and the real lovers of that specific niche is simply too small and segmented to support the further development of such games.
So OP its quite simple: Most of us don't hate you - We simply choose not to support your need to mess with our day. That playstyle is simply selfdestructive by nature.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
I don't hate it, but after my first MMO PvP has always followed the trend of being an unbalanced gankfest where gear and level makes the difference between winning and losing.
So until a good PvP game comes about with a good combat system (Like Tera's or GW2 with dodging), Balanced, with purpose and a good reward/risk system that makes going out into the world valuable and risky at the same time which forms for great alliances and rivalries where gear won't make a difference but your skill, I won't be much for it again.
Comments
Hmmm, my thoughts on open world pvp.
If my name didn't show up in bright red letters where someone could just hit tab and chase me down on some 210% flying mount, and I had an actual chance to escape even after dying once it really wouldn't be a big deal. As long as I didn't lose anything.
Thats why SWTOR was a good place for open world pvp, except now that it's bannable if you over 5 lvls which is silly because there's no risk involved at all.
However I do not agree with the current version of dayz for many reasons. With the expliots ingame now a person could see you change servers respawn at higher ground and snipe you breaking the game's design and only you get punished. Now that is not for me. To many times you get an Alt-f4 or somone hacks to win against you to keep you from surviving.
I liked other games take on OWPVP like Ro, or Lineage 2s because the weaker person could actually get away with luck.
It all depends on the game and how it's setup.
If everyone has a fair shake at get go then I'm all for OWPVP, howver if their are tons of exploits inviled so it's one sided w/ spawn camping with no end in sight (Ilum). Then I do have a problem with it.
I don't hate it, but after my first MMO PvP has always followed the trend of being an unbalanced gankfest where gear and level makes the difference between winning and losing.
So until a good PvP game comes about with a good combat system (Like Tera's or GW2 with dodging), Balanced, with purpose and a good reward/risk system that makes going out into the world valuable and risky at the same time which forms for great alliances and rivalries where gear won't make a difference but your skill, I won't be much for it again.
Remember... all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more.
I can feel all this hate i can allmost touch it,hate is so hard that i feel that people allmost wants to kill those gankers and griefers.
but then,they dont?
isnt that weird.
Let's internet
why do i hate open world pvp ? my response in 1 picture
edit : somebody can provide me a link to the threat "resume a game with 1 picture" ? i cant find it
I dont enjoy pvp in the first place, so OWPVP is out of the question.
The only pvp ive ever enjoyed was SWG´s massive saturday night space PVP, but that was totally different.
Gear/number unbalance.
If GW2 had an owpvp server with a correct set of balance rules then i would purchase this game.
But
It's been done before in pve games, the last time was in Age of Conan and while it was fun the server soon became a ghost town, but in my opinion it was due to the lack of gamers playing AoC, most pvp AoC players from the old pvp servers had already moved on to new games.
It's like you've never played in a game that puts in rules and limits this type of behavior. These griefers you guys live in constant fear of are actually not that numerous. From personal experience, I've been griefed maybe a handful of times in over a decade of pvp gaming. What you guys are afraid is not the standard experience in an OWPVP game.
And if you think you'll be safe from griefing in any other game, you're wrong. There are usually plenty of ways someone can be a jerk and ruin your day, whether by node stealing, boss camping, training monsters onto you, etc. GW2 has done a lot to limit that behavior, so the non-pvp griefing will be extremely limited. I don't know if it will be gone completely, though.
But back to griefing in open world pvp games... It happens far less often than your fears have built up.
110% agree!!!
I personally love it, but..
(i) It takes some control out of the hands of the player. Whilst some love the idea of random encounters and the unexpected, some just want to get on with exactly what they want to be doing at any given moment without anything unexpected happening. I can completely understand why they would want that and this is perhaps the biggest reasons for some not enjoying the prospect of OWPVP
(ii) It allows for the potential for extreme lopsided combat. Although you get lopsided combat in RvR lakes, in arenas and in general pvp anyway.
At the end of the day people just enjoy different things, I do though think it is one of those "hot" topics which means that people will bang on about it even though they have little (or no) actual experience of it.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
In most MMO's it too heavily favors the predator vs the prey, so the prey seek their gaming adventure elsewhere.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Personally, I enjoy open world PVP for the simple reason that it adds immersion through uncertainty. IMO, this uncertainty makes even mundane tasks like gathering a little more exciting.
Regarding people who complain about always getting ganked, I just don't see it. I've been playing MMO's for over a decade almost exclusively on PvP servers and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've been griefed by an unreasonably higher level player.
I like that GW2 addresses the issue through huge PvP zones which should appease most players on both sides of the argument.
^this.
Well my own reasons would be:
Inaccessible. Going to places takes forever, and you almost always need a group to do anything worthwhile for fear of being ganked.
No challenge. I don't get anything out of ganking. Players that I may encounter may be
In none of those cases a smart enemy would not willingly fight me so thee run a way and I will be catching and killing them whenever I can just to relieve boredom, but I do not get any enjoyment out of it.
The power difference and size of groups also introduce a "non-skill factor" to the equation. They effectively diminish my ability to affect the outcome. It is out of my hands, and therefore I have no interest in the fight. I can't get a sense of accomplishment if I won due to one of the stated non-skill factors.
The nature of open world PvP is also the sort which puts a heavy emphasis on maneuvering pre-fight rather than the fight itself. Often the fight is merely a formality for the reasons stated before: player numbers and power difference. I have little interest in this shuffling, this "cat 'n' mouse game". It leads to combat as often as not, and even when things escalate to a battle, the outcome is often very underwhelming: the battle is one-sided and pre-determined.
TL;DR: Inaccessibility, no challenge, non-skill factors, and disappointing fights.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Ok I have calmed down a bit. I think the best answer for you is that mass of players loathe OWPVP because of ganking. Every game that does not protect at least part of the world (server, level, etc.) has not held the mass market. I include Eve Online with that statement. I cannot find the link but I remember CCP doing a study and finding that the majority of players stayed in 1.0 space. That was fine for the 3 months I was in the game - then came Hulkameggon and I quit. Eve could have millions of players instead of the hundreds of thousands if it made a protected pve environment. Bottom line - OWPVP is not a mass market draw.
And, if you think that I am off, notice that the soon to be king of the pvp mmos, GW2, does NOT have OWPVP.
If you really want OWPVP check out almost every Asian AAA MMO. It is almost a rule in that market.
/wonders about crossfaction whispers
OWPVP system needs a proper checks and balance though which is noneexistant is say like WoW. UO I hear had some good checks and balance and so does EVE to a degree. Can't say if that applies to other MMOs. It certainly is not fun when you have people so overpowered that one is a fool to even bother trying to resist or who are so decked out in PvP gear that they would decimate any moderately gear toon of superior skill.
That is what I meant, the 'bullies' who only pick on the lower level and run from their own level... My apologies I kinda added that at the end as a side note.
This isn't an attempt at a rebuttal, just a genuine question. Is it not the case that the factors you have listed there are actually not restricted to true OWPVP games but are also an issue within large/very large map/lake pvp situation ala WAR/GW2?
Clearly level disparity should be less of an issue in that case but as for "cat and mouse" and player number disparities, isn't it a similar situation?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
nah, I don't buy that. Not saying you are lying but it's not representative of what really goes on.
keep in mind that when Lineage 3 comes out i'll be one of the first in line. I'm seriously thinking of dropping my Tera PvE character for my pvp character. I enjoy ffa pvp.
However, I've witnessed people getting ganked far more than some people in this thread are saying that they've experienced it.
Heck, in Lineage 2, for a solid week, some high levels were going to Talking Island and just obliterating all the new players. Players kept asking us higher levelled players to come to talking Island and patrol it.
In Aion alone I was killed about 10 times by not only higher levle players but a mob of them. And I've killed an equal amount of gankers who were preying on lower level areas.
In Tera I had to jump in and take on two attackers who were ganging up on one player. Took out one and the other high tailed it out of there to a ctiy, with me in pursuit. Such was the bravery there.
There is a group of people who love to go into low level areas or just wait until someone is low in health as they pve and then swoop in.
I personally don't care because it's no skin off my nose. But there are people who just wanted to have a calm, enjoyable gaming experience in a controlled environment and don't want to deal with being ganked and then, in some cases, being insulted.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't "hate" OWPvP. I am just completely indifferent to it.
If I see a gearbased game with forced PvP I simply take my money to a different game. Most people seem to do just that and the end result is that the games that support griefing ends up underdeveloped without funds.
When there is no cannonfodder ingame the griefers leave as well and the real lovers of that specific niche is simply too small and segmented to support the further development of such games.
So OP its quite simple: Most of us don't hate you - We simply choose not to support your need to mess with our day. That playstyle is simply selfdestructive by nature.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
don`t want much, do u?
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