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Trinity-It's in our blood

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  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Naqaj
    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    i dont' remember a specific timeframe either but i could be wrong.. i do remember them saying it is their goal to push out more free content updates than any subscription based MMO. We shall see if they succeed in that.

    I'd definitely question that part, because with the exeption of one interview by Mike O'Brien, they are generall very carefull of making any promises or comparisons like that. When they speak about the game and it's features, they usually speak only about that, and avoid making any comparison along the lines of 'better than game x'. They may have said "We'll do regular content updates", but they didn't say "we'll do more updates than anyone else".

    they said it was their "goal" to never did they say they "will" it was just what they are striving for

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by pauly6478

    Well it may not be your traditional tank and not have taunt but you can still as a guardian if mob is attacking you turn it away from group or pull it away. Sure you can taunt but if he is attacking you, then you can ofc do what you can. And if he isnt attacking you guess what you can CC him so that he cant attack other teammates or protect them. 

     

    Sure not your traditional tank but your still doing the same thing a tank would do, Minus a few things like taunt.

     

    It's real simple tanks are there to cc and keep damage off team, you can still do this in gw2 just cant do it on command.

    can't do this a lot of the time that's the point

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • NaqajNaqaj Member UncommonPosts: 1,673
    Originally posted by Badaboom

    I'm looking for a source with no luck.  I believe it was an interview and they were saying 6 months was too quick for expansions and most people could not keep up.  Went on to say that their will be numerous small updates and will try to time expansions every year'ish.  Been awhile since I read it so I'm a little fuzzy on details.

    Yeah, that's the one I remember too. Point is, saying "more than 6 months for an expansion" is not "one expansion a year". Be careful with things like that, that's how rumors like 'endgame content is not ready!' are born :)

  • BadaboomBadaboom Member UncommonPosts: 2,380
    Originally posted by Stayonboard
     

     They definitely said that though.... GW1's content was "too fast" for some people. They felt they just got to the end of the campaign and there was already another xpac ready to go. This time they'll space it out much longer - or roughly about once a year.... 

    TY, thought I was going crazy.  Can you find the vid?

  • KawotaKawota Member Posts: 16

    When a mob is hitting you,  you're tanking. It doesn't matter if there's no aggro mechanic to keep the attention on yourself or not. What the poster above you is saying is that it's impossible to keep mobs from hitting someone in your party, therefore SOMEONE is tanking.

    Doesn't have to be the same person every battle, or even the same person throughout one whole fight. But someone is going to be taking that damage, and someone is going to be supporting him (including his own self heals), and someone is going to be killing the mob... And then roles will switch depending on how the fight goes.

    From what I can tell, the GW2 difference is it's fluidity in party members moving between the roles, not their complete absence from the game.

    Taking damage is not tanking, I beg to differ. Tanking is using special tools and abilities to make the enemy attack you instead of the other, much less resilient party members, then deal with the damage the enemy has caused. The said tools and abilities have to be reliable too. If you are, say, attacking an enemy in a multiplayer FPS to distract them from your artillery unit, are you tanking? No, you are distracting their attention.

    To make it simple, tanking is always distracting attention, but distracting attention is not always tanking.

    BTW, in GW2 you can attack while avoiding or running from enemies, so it doesn't affect your DPS that much.

  • latinkurolatinkuro Member Posts: 121
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    Originally posted by Kyus_HoB

    We have probably all played beta's from TSW, SWTOR, Tera recently. the big difference when playing the GW2 beta was that the beta experience and quality was far superior to those in comparative titles mentioned above and the biggest draw, that the game isn't so damn linear which is a huge issue with every theme park since WoW.

     I can't speak for TERA because I never played it but the linear nature of SWTOR and TSW are the biggest drawbacks of those games.

    In all fairness though, I actually found SWTOR and TSW to be good games. They just don't have a ton of tong term appeal to them. With the way this game is designed it appears it may not have the same issue. Between the explorable mode dungeons, scalable content,etc. it seems to have a lot more potential lasting appeal for players. Not having a sub goes a long way too.

     

    Tera suffers from the same mistake swtor did, they didn't change enough things to keep gamers interested.

    the combat is great, till you try GW2 combat because Tera's rooting effect is annoying as hell.

    The finest feature in Tera are dungeon Boss encounters, these are sadly ruined by the trinity

    the Boss is supposed tomove around the whole room and they have some of the craziest moves I've seen, that said the trinity tanking system ruins it because it will only target the one guy.

    once you get over the combat novelty in Tera it's just your generic old wow clone all over again just like what happens to swtor once the story telling novelty wears off.

  • StayonboardStayonboard Member Posts: 77
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Stayonboard
     

     They definitely said that though.... GW1's content was "too fast" for some people. They felt they just got to the end of the campaign and there was already another xpac ready to go. This time they'll space it out much longer - or roughly about once a year.... 

    TY, thought I was going crazy.  Can you find the vid?

    Ive been looking - and I can't recall which video it was unfortnately but you can trust that's exactly what was said (I know, trust and the internet doesn't go hand in hand lol). ;)

     

    When I get home from work Ill research more as Ill have more time to check it out. 

     

     

  • LucioonLucioon Member UncommonPosts: 819

    Dedicated roles is exactly what is missing in GW2.

    You can't say that an Elementalist in your party is only good for healing, because they can switch and tank or dps or both or none at all

    You can't take a guardian and expect that guardian to go front and center, because they might be support today, dps or both or none at all

    You can't take a Warrior and expect it to melee, because that warrior can range and become support or both, or none at all.

    You can't take a Engineer and expect it to pump out healing turrets, it can pump out dps turrets, pump out supports or both or none at all

    I hope you all understands where I am taking this....

    You can take 4  parties of 5 players and have them each consist the same exact combinations of classes, but each party will have different players doing different things. That is the beauty of this system that GW2 have. Unlike other MMO's in existence, Warrior is only a tank, thief is only a dps, and Priests can only heal. I understand that there are hybrid roles, but in all MMO's out there if you are a priest, you better be spec for healing or else you are booted, same for warriors, you better have tanking gear or you are out.

     

     

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,606
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by pauly6478

    Well it may not be your traditional tank and not have taunt but you can still as a guardian if mob is attacking you turn it away from group or pull it away. Sure you can taunt but if he is attacking you, then you can ofc do what you can. And if he isnt attacking you guess what you can CC him so that he cant attack other teammates or protect them. 

     

    Sure not your traditional tank but your still doing the same thing a tank would do, Minus a few things like taunt.

     

    It's real simple tanks are there to cc and keep damage off team, you can still do this in gw2 just cant do it on command.

    can't do this a lot of the time that's the point

    pauly6478, Guardian and Necros can mitigate damage better then most classes. Even then they are not required to run a dungeon. Would it be easier to have them there? Yup but you can have 5 of the squishest classes/builds and still pull off any dungeon. Why? Because all classes can play all 3 roles. That is why its a soft trinity. You dont have set classes filling hard roles. Sure a trinity is there but not in the norm we have seen in MMOs. Some see it as no trinity but the holly trinity of a hard tank, healer, dps is not in GW2. You look for it you wont find it. Try to play that way you will only make it so far and in the end fail. Welcome to the soft trinity.

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Stayonboard
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Stayonboard
     

     They definitely said that though.... GW1's content was "too fast" for some people. They felt they just got to the end of the campaign and there was already another xpac ready to go. This time they'll space it out much longer - or roughly about once a year.... 

    TY, thought I was going crazy.  Can you find the vid?

    Ive been looking - and I can't recall which video it was unfortnately but you can trust that's exactly what was said (I know, trust and the internet doesn't go hand in hand lol). ;)

     

    When I get home from work Ill research more as Ill have more time to check it out. 

     

     

    not the exact thing you guys are looking for but think its a good read about what "type" of content they want to add:)

    http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Nice drive by OP, you're giving those anxious for Friday something to do :). I also find it funny there are so many posters from old accounts that haven't been used in a long time.

    Anywho, anyone that thinks there is a typical trinity can test it out. If you're in a group and see an at level veteran mob, better yet one in AC, tell your mates to hold back and engage it to build aggro (if that's possible).

    You're a Guardian so you have some shields, some regen, a heal oh and your dodge. When you get hit a few times and die make sure to yell at the Elementalist because they didn't heal you fast enough.

    No matter what the professions can spec into the game was not designed for a standard trinity. Guardians cannot stand there and take all the hits nor can they or water Elrmentalists heal you while you try.
  • StayonboardStayonboard Member Posts: 77
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Nice drive by OP, you're giving those anxious for Friday something to do :). I also find it funny there are so many posters from old accounts that haven't been used in a long time.

    Anywho, anyone that thinks there is a typical trinity can test it out. If you're in a group and see an at level veteran mob, better yet one in AC, tell your mates to hold back and engage it to build aggro (if that's possible).

    You're a Guardian so you have some shields, some regen, a heal oh and your dodge. When you get hit a few times and die make sure to yell at the Elementalist because they didn't heal you fast enough.

    No matter what the professions can spec into the game was not designed for a standard trinity. Guardians cannot stand there and take all the hits nor can they or water Elrmentalists heal you while you try.

    Nonsense!! I never played the game but some video I saw somewhere showed a Guardian tanking....so it must be true!!!

     

    Stop believing what your developers say, they just want your money, then they'll stop supporting GW2 and go to another game/company to get more subscriptions.

     

     

  • Kyus_HoBKyus_HoB Member Posts: 185

    I guess a summary of this thread would be, 

    "Just Because its possible to achieve a goal by trying to mitigate damage, it doesn't mean its the only way and most effective way that you can achieve that goal"

    and I'll second what I said a page back, shhhhh with the guardians get me a cloth wearing NECRO up in the house to take some damage!!!

  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904


    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Aerowyn Originally posted by rygard49  
    When a mob is hitting you,  you're tanking. It doesn't matter if there's no aggro mechanic to keep the attention on yourself or not. What the poster above you is saying is that it's impossible to keep mobs from hitting someone in your party, therefore SOMEONE is tanking. Doesn't have to be the same person every battle, or even the same person throughout one whole fight. But someone is going to be taking that damage, and someone is going to be supporting him (including his own self heals), and someone is going to be killing the mob... And then roles will switch depending on how the fight goes. From what I can tell, the GW2 difference is it's fluidity in party members moving between the roles, not their complete absence from the game.
    interesting take on tanking
    He is a little off but not far from the mark. A mage in WoW could tank if thats the case. Where it becomes taking is when your class is designed to mitigate damage by buffs/regen/ac/skills then you are tanking. I know GW fans like to say the classes dont tank, they have control skills. <<<shrugs>>> thats cutting hairs if you ask me. GW2 does have a soft trinity as all classes have what they need to stand toe to toe with a boss for a small time. But if someone cant see its not done in the standard MMO way then they are not worth replying to.

    A mage in wow has been known to tank.

    Grulls.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,606
    Originally posted by Stayonboard
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Nice drive by OP, you're giving those anxious for Friday something to do :). I also find it funny there are so many posters from old accounts that haven't been used in a long time.

    Anywho, anyone that thinks there is a typical trinity can test it out. If you're in a group and see an at level veteran mob, better yet one in AC, tell your mates to hold back and engage it to build aggro (if that's possible).

    You're a Guardian so you have some shields, some regen, a heal oh and your dodge. When you get hit a few times and die make sure to yell at the Elementalist because they didn't heal you fast enough.

    No matter what the professions can spec into the game was not designed for a standard trinity. Guardians cannot stand there and take all the hits nor can they or water Elrmentalists heal you while you try.

    Nonsense!! I never played the game but some video I saw somewhere showed a Guardian tanking....so it must be true!!!

     

    Stop believing what your developers say, they just want your money, then they'll stop supporting GW2 and go to another game/company to get more subscriptions.

     

     

    I saw a video of a money using a typewriter once. Bet it was a good book he wrote. Go play the game and roll a guardian if you think they are so OP that broke the way the game is designed. Come back in a few months and tell us how that worked for you. Guardians can stand toe to toe with burst damage if they are speced to do so but it only lasts for a short amount of time. If they dont dodge out of harms way after 30-120 seconds they will be eating dirt. I know, Guardian has been my main play in the beta. 

  • StayonboardStayonboard Member Posts: 77
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Stayonboard
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Nice drive by OP, you're giving those anxious for Friday something to do :). I also find it funny there are so many posters from old accounts that haven't been used in a long time.

    Anywho, anyone that thinks there is a typical trinity can test it out. If you're in a group and see an at level veteran mob, better yet one in AC, tell your mates to hold back and engage it to build aggro (if that's possible).

    You're a Guardian so you have some shields, some regen, a heal oh and your dodge. When you get hit a few times and die make sure to yell at the Elementalist because they didn't heal you fast enough.

    No matter what the professions can spec into the game was not designed for a standard trinity. Guardians cannot stand there and take all the hits nor can they or water Elrmentalists heal you while you try.

    Nonsense!! I never played the game but some video I saw somewhere showed a Guardian tanking....so it must be true!!!

     

    Stop believing what your developers say, they just want your money, then they'll stop supporting GW2 and go to another game/company to get more subscriptions.

     

     

    I saw a video of a money using a typewriter once. Bet it was a good book he wrote. Go play the game and roll a guardian if you think they are so OP that broke the way the game is designed. Come back in a few months and tell us how that worked for you. Guardians can stand toe to toe with burst damage if they are speced to do so but it only lasts for a short amount of time. If they dont dodge out of harms way after 30-120 seconds they will be eating dirt. I know, Guardian has been my main play in the beta. 

    I guess sarcasm is lost over the internet these days.....

     

    I figured given the post I made the page before, it was fairly obvious. :X

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    I'm sure a Mage did tank Grulls but that had more to do with the dedicated healers spamming thier minds out. For the trinity to work all three pieces have to be dedicated and strong. GW2 just isn't build like that and the only similarity is damage.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,606
    Originally posted by Stayonboard
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Stayonboard
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Nice drive by OP, you're giving those anxious for Friday something to do :). I also find it funny there are so many posters from old accounts that haven't been used in a long time.

    Anywho, anyone that thinks there is a typical trinity can test it out. If you're in a group and see an at level veteran mob, better yet one in AC, tell your mates to hold back and engage it to build aggro (if that's possible).

    You're a Guardian so you have some shields, some regen, a heal oh and your dodge. When you get hit a few times and die make sure to yell at the Elementalist because they didn't heal you fast enough.

    No matter what the professions can spec into the game was not designed for a standard trinity. Guardians cannot stand there and take all the hits nor can they or water Elrmentalists heal you while you try.

    Nonsense!! I never played the game but some video I saw somewhere showed a Guardian tanking....so it must be true!!!

     

    Stop believing what your developers say, they just want your money, then they'll stop supporting GW2 and go to another game/company to get more subscriptions.

     

     

    I saw a video of a money using a typewriter once. Bet it was a good book he wrote. Go play the game and roll a guardian if you think they are so OP that broke the way the game is designed. Come back in a few months and tell us how that worked for you. Guardians can stand toe to toe with burst damage if they are speced to do so but it only lasts for a short amount of time. If they dont dodge out of harms way after 30-120 seconds they will be eating dirt. I know, Guardian has been my main play in the beta. 

    I guess sarcasm is lost over the internet these days.....

     

    I figured given the post I made the page before, it was fairly obvious. :X

    Lesson: Sarcasm rarely translates well on forums.

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy Member UncommonPosts: 2,053
    You can try to play it like a traditional trinity. And you'll be able to do some content that way. But you won't be able to complete the difficult content with dedicated roles.
  • rygard49rygard49 Member UncommonPosts: 973
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by rygard49
     

    When a mob is hitting you,  you're tanking. It doesn't matter if there's no aggro mechanic to keep the attention on yourself or not. What the poster above you is saying is that it's impossible to keep mobs from hitting someone in your party, therefore SOMEONE is tanking.

    Doesn't have to be the same person every battle, or even the same person throughout one whole fight. But someone is going to be taking that damage, and someone is going to be supporting him (including his own self heals), and someone is going to be killing the mob... And then roles will switch depending on how the fight goes.

    From what I can tell, the GW2 difference is it's fluidity in party members moving between the roles, not their complete absence from the game.

    interesting take on tanking

    He is a little off but not far from the mark. A mage in WoW could tank if thats the case. Where it becomes taking is when your class is designed to mitigate damage by buffs/regen/ac/skills then you are tanking. I know GW fans like to say the classes dont tank, they have control skills. <<>> thats cutting hairs if you ask me. GW2 does have a soft trinity as all classes have what they need to stand toe to toe with a boss for a small time. But if someone cant see its not done in the standard MMO way then they are not worth replying to.

    It was my impression that all classes would be able to mitigate damage to some degree... so my definition above is absolutely colored by that impression for this specific game. I could have been clearer with that.

    Thank you for being one of the only ones to actually read my whole post and not make a knee jerk reply based on the first sentence. I wasn't saying that the game has a trinity system in the classic sense, just that the elements people usually associate with the trinity are still in the game but in a completely different presentation and form.

  • TafaleTafale Member UncommonPosts: 37
    Originally posted by Drachasor
    Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

    As someone who has played in a beta weekend, I say the trinity is dead in GW2, it's not in GW2's blood. Square peg in a round hole.

    Which is something I'm grateful for.  The Trinity is one of the most ludicrous game mechanics I've ever experienced.  And Devs in such games spend all that work enforcing a very artificial game mechanic that isn't even fun or interesting at a base level.

    If you're talking about WoW's trinity then yeah, it's absolute garbage. On the other hand there are versions of the trinity where e.g. healers are not idiots that spam heals. You might talk about the need for tanks and such to do content though and that is perfectly fine to not like, even if I like it. On the other hand GW2's system will be interesting to experience in person.

  • eggy08eggy08 Member Posts: 525

    Trinity can be explained quite easily. Holy trinity or not, trinity is designed in a game by the AI of the instance encounters. So, if truth be told, can we classify that the GW2 AI is in fact made solely for the purpose of at least 1 character who must be beefy and tank while others dps and still throws out enough damage that a dedicated healer must keep up the rest of the group, all while each person has a specific role in the group, not going past those boundaries far.

    Does GW2 really have the boundaries that other trinity MMOs have? When you queue for a dungeon or are looking for a raid in this game as opposed to others, do you ask for specific roles, or just ask for people who can do what is necessary of them?

    Can you spec as a healer and a tank? There's stats for tanking and mitigating damage, and there are stats for healing more... but does that really help enough that it could work in harder difficulties?

    Take for instance that then mobs AI is random target, random aggro and no "tanks" have a taunt, if they wanted the trinity system, I'd say they either messed up AI badly or it wasn't meant for that.

    So CAN there be trinity? In lower easier instances sure, in harder ones... noone knows. But is THIS game designed around there being a trinity.. No. So what does it matter if it could be there or not? It's all just play preference.

  • SvarcanumSvarcanum Member UncommonPosts: 425
    Not very many people in this post trying to explain the video, which is the root of the question. I agree, it very much looks like the guardian is old school tanking that boss. Someone said the boss had ranged attacks and didn't really go for the guardian but the other team members. That would explain why it looks like he's tanking but is not. Personally that fight looked REALLY boring, but as for tanking my personal experiences as guardian is that in no way shape or form did I feel like a tank. More often than not I had to run like a little girl when I fought one of those blindness resistant elite mobs. So that video does a poor job of displaying my experience as guardian.
  • MrlogicMrlogic Member Posts: 178
    Originally posted by gieger808

    So I haven't played any of the beta, but from the footage I've seen, there IS a trinity. Lots of classes (if not all) have a healing and tanking "spec".  As I watch some of the dungeon running I see people falling into those roles. 

    It really caught my attention during a run PC Gamer did. I don't have the Youtube link handy, but you could probably find it.

     

    I think you should have atleast participated in one BWE before even considering to start a thread like this... just saying

  • xr00t3dxxr00t3dx Member Posts: 275
    Originally posted by gieger808

    So I haven't played any of the beta, but from the footage I've seen, there IS a trinity. Lots of classes (if not all) have a healing and tanking "spec".  As I watch some of the dungeon running I see people falling into those roles. 

    It really caught my attention during a run PC Gamer did. I don't have the Youtube link handy, but you could probably find it.

     

    Once you figure out what the Trinity "actually" is you may want to come back and revise your post. Until then, you're just embarrassing yourself.

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