Originally posted by Crazy_Stick I am... so very suprised that this topic hasn't been shutdown as of yet considering the content of some posts.
And who hasn't been completely surprised with the direction this oft-repeated fossil of a thread always takes?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Nailzzz Ah how cute. I love when people get all indignant about this subject. Yes of course i was serious. the fact that you didnt dispute any of my points, just my conclusion, would indicate you are well aware of this even if you refuse to admit it. But ill do you the favor of disputing your points to show that i am in fact serious.
Ok. I'll dispute your points.
At least in the US we have more female voters than we do male ones, and yet somehow we still wind up with male presidents.
Electing women to office doesn't fix anything. This isn't about having the same power and influence as a man. Its not about taking over. Its about mutual respect and inclusion. Its about abolishing dominance and oppression.
Most CEO's are male despite that most discretionary spending is done by women giving them much influence as a group over which businesses succed or fail.
Source? This doesn't have anything to do with objectification so I'm not even sure what your point is here anyway. That women have power because they spend money? Show me where women drive the spending market. They don't. But that point is irrelevant anyway.
Most men in jail were raised by their single mothers despite claiming to be victims of males (who really victimized who?).
Patriarchy is participated by women as well as men. This isn't about men v women.
Women claim to want nice guys, but then sleep with men of selfish charachter rather than any genuinely nice guys they know, and then wonder why guys are jerks. Women get pregnant and choose to keep the child because they want something to love them, despite that they may hate thier own parents.
So instead of trying to figure out why this happens, you use it as a reason to label women as screwed up. Why are these women you're referring to acting this way?
Your last paragraph dismisses patriarchy because you claim women have the power to influence and control just as much as a man. They do. And they participate in patriarchy as well. This isn't about men vs women. Its about society as a whole and the roles of oppression that we play in them.
When i watch television and movies you know what i see? I see lots of graphic scenes of death casually handled like its every day involving men. Hard to be much more helpless than dead. Anytime you see a movie or tv show with a woman's death scene, it is usually a very dramatic meaningful affair. Where as most of the on screen deaths involving men are sometimes even played up for comic relief at times if given any meaning at all outside of a main charachters death.
Why do you think when a woman on tv or film is killed it is usually a dramatic, meaningful affair? Because we as a society view women as helpless. As a creature that cannot fend for themselves. We have this thrown at us constantly to the point where we no longer see them as equal, but as fragile beings that need our protection. And why wouldn't they? We live in a world where women are sexually objectified for profit. To sell anything. They are dehumanized in order to sell a product. It is a fact that when we dehumanize someone or something, it is easier for us to act out in violence against it.
As for women being the majority of victims of domestic violence well yes. Officially any way and that is likely to actually be the case, but with the rather large differences in what vaious places reguard as domestic violence on top of cultural attitudes about a male that is beaten or abused by a female, we may honestly never know the truth on this one and i wont pretend we do. Still even if you accept the official statistics, it still comes down to a 40%/60% in favor of women. Not a margin i would choose as a crushing defeat of my point. Especially since men are the victim of violence in general far more often than women.
Um no. We know the truth. Women are in the majority at about a60% to 40% ratio considering the most broad definition of dom violence. But the most violent acts including rape and murder are being done to women by a much larger margin. Source And since when is this a contest? A crushing defeat? A narrow margin? Its all awful.
To the majority of rape victims being women, that could be true. But having been locked up at some earlier point in my life im pretty sure convicts arent making it onto those statistics. Id much rather be a scantily clad woman walking down a dark alley than a prisoner in any prison. While i was lucky in my short time inside, alot of others were not. Ive actually never heard of a single credible source documenting stats on males being raped. So lets not pretend women win this stat on anything other than a default assumption.
So you're saying since prison conditions involve men getting raped, then that negates rape against women in the outside world? That makes absolutely no sense. The prison system is one of the most repulsive and inhumane inventions we have ever come up with. But because awful things happen to men in there, its ok that similar things happen to women who are just walking to their car, or going to the store? No.
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick I am... so very suprised that this topic hasn't been shutdown as of yet considering the content of some posts.
And who hasn't been completely surprised with the direction this oft-repeated fossil of a thread always takes?
Freedom and individual rights are important. Freedom of expression and artistic freedom are essential in a good and happy society. Really for every individual in the world. Being able to respect other peoples opinion and how they prefer to live is also important. That is tolerance. People that think a woman in a computer game wearing a bikini is the end of the world are strange, IMO. And that they feel they need to attack developers and companies that are creating such games is odd. Clearly they dont have to play the games if they dont like them. There is no need to preach morals and ideology. I certainly dont want such values, morals or ideology to be part of my life. At least not when I play games.
Originally posted by gaeanprayer While I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points.
Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!
What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system.
During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to.
Yes, because you're ability to generalize and state what "is really going on" in the minds of women, is so much better than using sex to sell.
Thank god for people who really know what's going on in the minds of others, how in the world would I ever be able to think for myself, without people like the guy I quoted doing all the thinking for me. I am grateful and thank you, good sir or madam, for stearing us all down the right path to tolerant behavior and objective thinking. Without your fingers muddling in my mind, and informing me how to properly think and behave, I would be a horrible, horrible person, not worthy of the air I breathe; unlike yourself.
Originally posted by Uhwop Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by gaeanprayerWhile I can understand the arguments and anger behind over-sexualization of women in fictional medium, it's really not as wide-spread as people think. Some of it is actually driven by women. Did my thesis on the shift in depiction of women in American Art and it lead me to places I hadn't expected, namely that there are as many feminists for the sexualization ("freedom of expression" vs. the more Victorian era prudishness in regards to women) as there are against it. Both sides have some good points. Bit of a segue there but, yeah, this is not just a male thing even if the gaming market is (for now) dominated by men. People offended by this should really consider what it is they're offended by, the actual depiction or the so-called "principle" behind it. Personally, I don't mind it. What I do mind is when people throw a fit when the same thing is done to men; remember the MMORPG.com fuss from that MMO advertisement with the pirate dude and the low-rider pants? Equal nudity for all, I say!
What you're describing is called economic whoredom. Women embrace and often profit from willfully objectifying themselves. They even claim that it empowers them. The problem is that they are only empowered within a patriarchy that allows them to be objectified in exchange for a sense of power and control within this system.During your thesis, did you you read any books by Bell Hooks or other noted feminists? Most of them feel the opposite of what you are referring to. Yes, because you're ability to generalize and state what "is really going on" in the minds of women, is so much better than using sex to sell.
Thank god for people who really know what's going on in the minds of others, how in the world would I ever be able to think for myself, without people like the guy I quoted doing all the thinking for me. I am grateful and thank you, good sir or madam, for stearing us all down the right path to tolerant behavior and objective thinking. Without your fingers muddling in my mind, and informing me how to properly think and behave, I would be a horrible, horrible person, not worthy of the air I breathe; unlike yourself.
I'm not telling you how to think. I never said Trion was evil. I never said I was speaking for anyone. In fact, most of the things I'm talking about doesn't have anything to do with you, personally, or anyone in specific for that matter. Im commenting on our social structure. It is something to think about, not indoctrinate.
The idea that women (and men in cases) use their sexuality to feel empowered and to profit off of it all the while feeling empowered and "good about themselves" because of it.
I can't argue that there aren't people out there who fall into a rut where they feel empowered but in reality they are part of a system that is pulling the strings and taking advantage. However, there are women and men who very readily enjoy using their sexuality for monetary gain regardless of who is pulling the strings and they do feel empowered and good about themselves.
The issue in the second example is that there are people who can't fathom that this is true so the come up with all sorts of reasons why the second group can't possibly be feeling positive as well as profiting from it in a heatlhy way. I call them prudes.
But if I'm wrong in that you weren't talking about this then I apologize.
Of course people can feel good about being objectified for monetary gain. Our society encourages it. It is reinforced in our culture constantly. We live in a world where we reward people for dehumanizing themselves. We are born and raised into this way of thinking. It is so ingrained into our life that we actually feel fulfilled by doing it.
When slavery was abolished, there were tens of thousands of slaves that refused to strike out on their own and leave. They stayed with their masters because that was all they knew and they were convinced that it was ok to be owned. And they were genuinely content. Society had encouraged it to be that way.
I have to shiver a bit at your post because I always find it disquieting when someone has recognized the evils of the world and wants to point them out to people, possibly "clucking their tongue" along the way.
My first thought is that we are wired to be "us". And though we try to be better people, in the end we are going to be what we are going to be. Within humanity there is a nature vs nurture battle that is always going on. Still, I don't believe that setting some high bar, a bar that is sort of academic in its conception, is really going to change us from what we are.
In the end, we are animals. We eat and procreate. Our whole drive is about eating and procreating. And though we do incredible things such as land small cars on mars and take sounds or color or words and weave them into something that is greater than the sum of its parts, we are still programmed with "eating and procreating".
It's just that our intelligence also makes us aware of sexuality in a more profound and perhaps complicated way.
Are there people out there who are victims? Are there people out there who don't know better? sure! Are there people out there who need help because they have gotten into situations where they should never be?
of course!
Are there people out there who embrace their sexuality and try ti imbue their lives with as much of it as possible? Because they are wired this way? um, "yea you bet".
I'm for a live and let live enviroment. I'm not for groups of people looking at other groups of people and creating very strict defiitions on what they should be doing, how they should be acting and how they don't know better because they are misguided, they are led astray or they can't let themselves be better and rise above.
Becuase you know what that is?
That's Plato's Republic.
It's the whole idea that mankind will always be lost unless the small group of learned philosophers take over leadership and shows them "the way" despite themselves. That only the philosophers are capapble of leading the unruly masses who can't possibly make good decisions as a society. That only a few are wise enough to lead the many.
And that type of thing just won't do.
Sex sells because it's who we are. We want to be sexual, we want to have it in our lives as much as we can stand. if people want to temper it that's great. More power to them. If people want to indulge and maximize it then that should be ok as well. If that is not to your liking and you want to say that it's because of the chains of society then that's your prerogative. You can hate and avoid the use of sexual images on games, in movies, on TV as much as you like. I'll fully support you in that. But that's where that ends.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Sovrath I have to shiver a bit at your post because I always find it disquieting when someone has recognized the evils of the world and wants to point them out to people, possibly "clucking their tongue" along the way.
My first thought is that we are wired to be "us". And though we try to be better people, in the end we are going to be what we are going to be. Within humanity there is a nature vs nurture battle that is always going on. Still, I don't believe that setting some high bar, a bar that is sort of academic in its conception, is really going to change us from what we are.
In the end, we are animals. We eat and procreate. Our whole drive is about eating and procreating. And though we do incredible things such as land small cars on mars and take sounds or color or words and weave them into something that is greater than the sum of its parts, we are still programmed with "eating and procreating".
It's just that our intelligence also makes us aware of sexuality in a more profound and perhaps complicated way.
Are there people out there who are victims? Are there people out there who don't know better? sure! Are there people out there who need help because they have gotten into situations where they should never be?
of course!
Are there people out there who embrace their sexuality and try ti imbue their lives with as much of it as possible? Because they are wired this way? um, "yea you bet".
I'm for a live and let live enviroment. I'm not for groups of people looking at other groups of people and creating very strict defiitions on what they should be doing, how they should be acting and how they don't know better because they are misguided, they are led astray or they can't let themselves be better and rise above.
Becuase you know what that is?
That's Plato's Republic.
It's the whole idea that mankind will always be lost unless the small group of learned philosophers take over leadership and shows them "the way" despite themselves. That only the philosophers are capapble of leading the unruly masses who can't possibly make good decisions as a society. That only a few are wise enough to lead the many.
And that type of thing just won't do.
Sex sells because it's who we are. We want to be sexual, we want to have it in our lives as much as we can stand. if people want to temper it that's great. More power to them. If people want to indulge and maximize it then that should be ok as well. If that is not to your liking and you want to say that it's because of the chains of society then that's your prerogative. You can hate and avoid the use of sexual images on games, in movies, on TV as much as you like. I'll fully support you in that. But that's where that ends.
Not talking about human sexuality. Not 'clucking' anything. Not trying to tell anyone how to think or feel. I'm not targeting any individuals or their behaviors. Of course you are entitled to whatever opinions you may have on any subject matter. I'm not talking about my opinion nor yours. If you'd take a moment to let down your guard, you'd hopefully see that I am not attacking or preaching or trying to manipulate. I'm commenting the society we live in. Thats it.
I'm confused where he told you what to think rather than telling you something you could think about.
EDIT: Also, did Hurvart just say he doesn't want respect to be a part of games?
No. I respect other peoples opinions. But I also believe in freedom of choice. If someone wants to create games that are politically correct in every way and do everything to not offend anyone its fine. But I will not play them... I think that would be very boring. And if you are killing mobs and other players characters all the time that should be a bigger moral problem than bikinis, IMO.
I think others should respect my opinion. I respect them and I think I deserve that. And they should stop attacking games I like or the companies and developers that make them.
Originally posted by Hurvart Originally posted by DeivosI'm confused where he told you what to think rather than telling you something you could think about.EDIT: Also, did Hurvart just say he doesn't want respect to be a part of games?
No. I respect other peoples opinions. But I also believe in freedom of choice. If someone wants to create games that are politically correct in every way and do everything to not offend anyone its fine. But I will not play them... I think that would be very boring. And if you are killing mobs and other players characters all the time that should be a bigger moral problem than bikinis, IMO.
I think others should respect my opinion. I respect them and I think I deserve that. And they should stop attacking games I like or the companies and developers that make them.
Are you implying I attacked games and developers that you like? Because I didn't.
The problem isn't the existence, it's the purpose.
Some one wants to call nudity artistic and natural?
Then it has to be displayed in a natural way. Not an overt or engineered way. There is a difference between art and porn and it is in the display as well as intent behind it's existence.
You want freedom of choice for people to make and play games they want. Fine. Not one person has argued against that.
But don't try and pretend it's more or less than what it is.
That seems to be more the point than anything else in Foomerang's rhetoric.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Originally posted by DeivosI'm confused where he told you what to think rather than telling you something you could think about.EDIT: Also, did Hurvart just say he doesn't want respect to be a part of games?
No. I respect other peoples opinions. But I also believe in freedom of choice. If someone wants to create games that are politically correct in every way and do everything to not offend anyone its fine. But I will not play them... I think that would be very boring. And if you are killing mobs and other players characters all the time that should be a bigger moral problem than bikinis, IMO.
I think others should respect my opinion. I respect them and I think I deserve that. And they should stop attacking games I like or the companies and developers that make them.
Are you implying I attacked games and developers that you like? Because I didn't.
It was not my intention to single you out. In general I think people complaning about sexy women in video games want developers to listen to them and stop creating games like that. They think it is a problem and want change... Because that would help to create a society with less objectification of women. Trying to convince developers this would be the right thing to do is probably often the reason they complain. From my POV this means attacking the developers. Because I dont agree with the ideology and I dont want to recognize the problem.
If a developer listened to such advice and decided to change the games it would not be good from my POV. And I want to try to prevent it.
Not talking about human sexuality. Not 'clucking' anything. Not trying to tell anyone how to think or feel. I'm not targeting any individuals or their behaviors. Of course you are entitled to whatever opinions you may have on any subject matter. I'm not talking about my opinion nor yours. If you'd take a moment to let down your guard, you'd hopefully see that I am not attacking or preaching or trying to manipulate. I'm commenting the society we live in. Thats it.
Except your commentary comes across as disaproving.
But ok, sure, let's back up.
Perhaps it is more about, as I mentioned above, how we are wired.
Getting slightly more on topic, the depiction of women in the Trion advertisment is very much like a pulp fiction rendition of women. A John Carter of Mars cover in the 60's. That whole Conan thing. The argument being that those covers, those types of stories are written by men and they depict women in a less flattering light.
I would argue that in some ways they depict women in an incredibly flattering if not raw and adolescent light. It's essentially men opening up their ID and expressing an appreciation for women, albeit in a very clumsy and faltering way.
As I said above, we are sexual beings. We eat and procreate. Regardless of whether we want families or not we have this built in biological imperative to continue the species. If we didn't have it we might not realy be here. All species have it. It's just that we, with our intellgience, attach "other things" to this because not only must we have sex, but we like sex. And we like being sexuallly attracted/attractive to people.
It's an explosion of appreciation that isn't tempered by our intelligence so much as it's just a "wow moment". And perhaps, because of our intelligence and all the things that go with it, it's a way for men to control the idea of women if not controlling women. And for heterosexual women they want to be attractive to men because they are built to make the babies. They have to attract a suitor. At least on a very fundamental biological level.
Now, having said that, in no way does this mean that men get to behave like asses and women have to have unwanted attention or be thought of as "less than".
They aren't objects, they are women. and heterosexual men want women. It's in our programming. So men reach down deeply and indulge that primitive part of their minds and create these very raw images that stem from that dark place that modern man doesn't like to acknowledge.
But again there is a difference between expressing this drive, this primitive expression and directly shoving it down someone's throat. I say directly because we in a society need to find our boundaries. I think it's an expression of our most primitive and fundamental nature and it's something to be celebrated by humanity, not looked at as women being viewed as slaves and men are controlling bastards.
as long as we acknowledge that this is a part of us and not everything that we are, that we acknowledge that it can be a good thing but something that must always be monitored lest we insult someone then it can be freeing and incredible.
So you know, "know your audience". for my tastes, anything that indulges in the sexuality of humanity, in all its forms, as long as everyone is consenting adults, is a good thing. In any case, I'm just shooting from the hip, I don't study this stuff it's more my observations of how things are.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It's a fair notion, but you have to account for history to realize a few flaws.
The first and foremost flaw being perception of beauty. If you want to rail on the depiction of 'beautiful women' then you have to acknowledge what aspects are actually biological and what are artificial and superficial constructs.
That woman posted in the op? Not only is that form at best mediocre on the health spectrum, the only thing going for it is potential hip ratio as a biological reason they might be attractive. Every other aspect is at this point a cultural value and imposition, in spite of real effects on health, that have nothign to do with their actual ability to survive or procreate.
So sure, there's base instinct driving that to some degree, but it's a whole lot of bogus fantasy driven into our skulls piled on top of it.
Point being that you can appreciate that picture all you want, but that appreciation is not (or there is only the inkling of) going towards anything natural.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
my girlfriend play fantasy games for the same reason any guy would, she wants to feel like shes in another world. I don't get why she as a female must walk out and be eye candy for all the guys in the world, and to boot it all she can get stabbed right in the stomach.
It's a fair notion, but you have to account for history to realize a few flaws.
The first and foremost flaw being perception of beauty. If you want to rail on the depiction of 'beautiful women' then you have to acknowledge what aspects are actually biological and what are artificial and superficial constructs.
That woman posted in the op? Not only is that form at best mediocre on the health spectrum, the only thing going for it is potential hip ratio as a biological reason they might be attractive. Every other aspect is at this point a cultural value and imposition, in spite of real effects on health, that have nothign to do with their actual ability to survive or procreate.
So sure, there's base instinct driving that to some degree, but it's a whole lot of bogus fantasy driven into our skulls piled on top of it.
Point being that you can appreciate that picture all you want, but that appreciation is not (or there is only thr inkling of) going towards anything natural.
I sort of agree but also disagree.
You say that the woman in the picture is medicore on the health spectrum? As far a procreation is my assumption.
I would say to early man "yes, you are correct". They probably would pass on her and go toward something shaped like this:
However, in light of modern advancements in medicine as well as an increase in our intelligence, those proportions aren't important anymore. I would say that the desire for women or desire to be attractive to men as well as some deep down desire to procreate is still there as strong as ever. However, because we have broadened our taste for what is considered beautiful and desireable, then we should consider that primitive drive as the engine and it's subtely changed due to intelligence and perception of beauty as well as evolving cultural ideas of beauty and desireability.
Our bodies, our genes know very little from one type of person to another. The informing instrucions are "procreate". We are just viewing possible mates through altered and expanded lenses. It's as if our head is sitting on an ancient machine that is powering us and yet that head heeds the instructions in a way that makes sense to our modern minds.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Not talking about human sexuality. Not 'clucking' anything. Not trying to tell anyone how to think or feel. I'm not targeting any individuals or their behaviors. Of course you are entitled to whatever opinions you may have on any subject matter. I'm not talking about my opinion nor yours. If you'd take a moment to let down your guard, you'd hopefully see that I am not attacking or preaching or trying to manipulate. I'm commenting the society we live in. Thats it.
Except your commentary comes across as disaproving.
But ok, sure, let's back up.
Perhaps it is more about, as I mentioned above, how we are wired.
Getting slightly more on topic, the depiction of women in the Trion advertisment is very much like a pulp fiction rendition of women. A John Carter of Mars cover in the 60's. That whole Conan thing. The argument being that those covers, those types of stories are written by men and they depict women in a less flattering light.
I would argue that in some ways they depict women in an incredibly flattering if not raw and adolescent light. It's essentially men opening up their ID and expressing an appreciation for women, albeit in a very clumsy and faltering way.
As I said above, we are sexual beings. We eat and procreate. Regardless of whether we want families or not we have this built in biological imperative to continue the species. If we didn't have it we might not realy be here. All species have it. It's just that we, with our intellgience, attach "other things" to this because not only must we have sex, but we like sex. And we like being sexuallly attracted/attractive to people.
It's an explosion of appreciation that isn't tempered by our intelligence so much as it's just a "wow moment". And perhaps, because of our intelligence and all the things that go with it, it's a way for men to control the idea of women if not controlling women. And for heterosexual women they want to be attractive to men because they are built to make the babies. They have to attract a suitor. At least on a very fundamental biological level.
Now, having said that, in no way does this mean that men get to behave like asses and women have to have unwanted attention or be thought of as "less than".
They aren't objects, they are women. and heterosexual men want women. It's in our programming. So men reach down deeply and indulge that primitive part of their minds and create these very raw images that stem from that dark place that modern man doesn't like to acknowledge.
But again there is a difference between expressing this drive, this primitive expression and directly shoving it down someone's throat. I say directly because we in a society need to find our boundaries. I think it's an expression of our most primitive and fundamental nature and it's something to be celebrated by humanity, not looked at as women being viewed as slaves and men are controlling bastards.
as long as we acknowledge that this is a part of us and not everything that we are, that we acknowledge that it can be a good thing but something that must always be monitored lest we insult someone then it can be freeing and incredible.
So you know, "know your audience". for my tastes, anything that indulges in the sexuality of humanity, in all its forms, as long as everyone is consenting adults, is a good thing. In any case, I'm just shooting from the hip, I don't study this stuff it's more my observations of how things are.
You make a lot of valid points. However in the context of this thread, I was talking about sexual objectification for the sake of selling a product. It happens in everything: food, cars, video games. Everything that can be bought and sold uses or has used sex as a marketing tool. Because sex feel good and we are hard wired to want it, it is used to associate with products for the sole purpose of monetary gian. And in the process, people are dehumanized and objectified. Whether voluntary or not, that is how it works in our society today. And I feel that is unfortunate.
Neh not really Sovrath. I don't even mean as far back as that either. IT's only recent history where skinny people even became ideal, and at this point we are reigning it back because there has been actual medical problems with the extremes to which that ideal has been taken.
Even on just modern standards you still see some of the initial inclinations though. Our genes actually know quite a lot from one body type to another, and there are plenty of individual case studies that agree to that.Like I mentioned the most apparent is the hips. the waist to hip ratio retains the same in many because even as a stick figure people still perceive the curvy nature of flared hips as being more beneficial, and it is for both procreation and personal health purposes.
It truly is only a very modern notion that people look the way they do, and you can't deny the fact that there is much that is artificial in the ideals. Even the one portrayed in the op is exceptionally artificial, and I'm not just meaning in that it's somewhat stylized to fit the Rift theme.
We haven't boradened our perception of anything, it has shifted as our means to control it has shifted.
EDIT: I also wanna add a response to Foomerang's last comment.
The most easily notable example being the trend in china of using outright naked women to sell cars at some places for car shows.
You thought the minidresses and skirts here were bad.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Neh not really Sovrath. I don't even mean as far back as that either. IT's only recent history where skinny people even became ideal, and at this point we are reigning it back because there has been actual medical problems with the extremes to which that ideal has been taken.
Even on just modern standards you still see some of the initial inclinations though. Our genes actually know quite a lot from one body type to another, and there are plenty of individual case studies that agree to that.Like I mentioned the most apparent is the hips. the waist to hip ratio retains the same in many because even as a stick figure people still perceive the curvy nature of flared hips as being more beneficial, and it is for both procreation and personal health purposes.
It truly is only a very modern notion that people look the way they do, and you can't deny the fact that there is much that is artificial in the ideals. Even the one portrayed in the op is exceptionally artificial, and I'm not just meaning in that it's somewhat stylized to fit the Rift theme.
We haven't boradened our perception of anything, it has shifted as our means to control it has shifted.
EDIT: I also wanna add a response to Foomerang's last comment.
The most easily notable example being the trend in china of using outright naked women to sell cars at some places for car shows.
You thought the minidresses and skirts here were bad.
Well, it's true that I'm aware of, in the case of women, curvier being considered more attractive up until the last century (in the examples that come to mind - I'm sure someone could point out a society that doesn't have curvier people - However, Rubens comes to mind for a plumper ideal woman) but I'm convinced that the change in attitudes come from better medical care and as I mentioned, Our intelligence.
If you were to show anyone today a picture of what would be considered a generally beautiful person (on the average) but they were anorexic or incredibly obese, I think you would find more often than not that "most" people would not see them as desirable.
But there is a difference between anorexic and obese and "skinny and curvy".
As I said, our engine is one that is the same. The "deep, deep down" wants to procreate. But we can procreate with people of many different body types and for the most part still have babies and babies that live.
Now, our intelligence as well as our cultural perceptions help color what is desirable. Part of this could be seeing someone who is skinny (not anorexic) and just noting that they are different. Maybe we as a species are programmed to just "try" for the sake of genetic diversity?
Remember, if strong healthy males were only the wanted types of mates we probably wouldn't have evolved to a point where intelligence is a key factor. Could have started off intelligent health males and then the greater the intelligence, regardless of physical attributes, the better at surviving in an evolving society.
I kind of see humanity as a cake. The fundamentla cake is our fundamentl being and the icing, sprinkles, sugar flowers or "whatever" is our intelligence and sum of what happens in an evolving modern society.
Atraction to any human being is chemical. Our society, who we live with, who our siblings are, friends etc help fine tune what our bodies want.
Our bodies want sex. Sex in its most fundamental form is about procreating. Now add our intelligence, the sum of our knowledge, differences in our hormones, etc, and we get all sorts of things that, though driven by that fundamentla urge, is then steered toward other directions.
Being tied up and spanked is not procreating, I'll give you that. Or any other proclivities that humanity has added to its sexual repertoire.
We have this engine that wants sex and then we, as modern men/women have altered the direction of the car. The engine is still pluggin away but our minds, intelligence, advanced emotions then drive that care in unforeseen directions.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I don't see anything wrong here. It wouldn't be the best way to get me sold on a game but, using sex to sell violence sounds fine.
Actually using any mehtod necessary to sell any entertainment product sounds A OK with me. Well, short of the threatening of physical harm.
Games, Tv shows, movies etc... All optional. If there are any issues to be discussed, they should be first addressed at the parental level, then at early schooling because after that, all other influences are superficial, the damage has already been done.
AND considering the state of pornography on the internet, the fact that any of these game ad "models" have any clothes at all says something positive.... I think.
You make a lot of valid points. However in the context of this thread, I was talking about sexual objectification for the sake of selling a product. It happens in everything: food, cars, video games. Everything that can be bought and sold uses or has used sex as a marketing tool. Because sex feel good and we are hard wired to want it, it is used to associate with products for the sole purpose of monetary gian. And in the process, people are dehumanized and objectified. Whether voluntary or not, that is how it works in our society today. And I feel that is unfortunate.
But I think that's it, it's more of a glass half full/half empty scenario.
You say taht because sex feels good and that we are hard wired to want it (which it is and which we are) it is used to asociate products for the sole purpose of monetary gain.
Though there is incredible truth to that I would also add that perhaps it's not just a "slap a brawny guy on that product or a scantily clad woman on another product and we'll make millions" but also that we has humans just "have sex on the brain".
We love our sex. In our own way and in our own forms. That in a sense we are voyeurs and exhibitionists. And we look to add sex everywhere simply because we love were it leads us.
Or in another sense, I can give you vanilla ice cream or I can give you that vanilla ice cream with sprinkles. We love our sprinkles so let's just add it!
It allows us to express and view sexuality in a socially acceptable mode. We get to look at, to gaze upon people that we find desirable and we get to be viewed, in public as our glorious and sexual selves with no apologies.
I just think it's who we are as a species. We want to be excited, titillated to be watched, to be the watcher.
And even if it wasn't used to get the attention of consumers (I'm convinced that just because you slap sexually desireable people on a prodcut doesn't mean that product will be successful, it will just get noticed) we would still allow those moments of exhibitionism/voyeurism to exist.
It's our societal pressure valve. It's that balance between our animal selves and our modern logical selves.
ok, will revisit the thread tomorrow... skyrim is calling.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Trionicus I don't see anything wrong here. It wouldn't be the best way to get me sold on a game but, using sex to sell violence sounds fine.
Actually using any mehtod necessary to sell any entertainment product sounds A OK with me. Well, short of the threatening of physical harm.
Games, Tv shows, movies etc... All optional. If there are any issues to be discussed, they should be first addressed at the parental level, then at early schooling because after that, all other influences are superficial, the damage has already been done.
AND considering the state of pornography on the internet, the fact that any of these game ad "models" have any clothes at all says something positive.... I think.
So, you don't think presenting a person as a sexual object for profit hurts them? When you look at a female figure in a sexualized context and your brain involuntarily says "I want to do things to her", you don't think that harms the image of women? When a guy in a commercial looks at a woman's ass and she yells at him them seduces him then she turns into a friggin car... you don't think that is harmful to how women are perceived in society?
Comments
And who hasn't been completely surprised with the direction this oft-repeated fossil of a thread always takes?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Ok. I'll dispute your points.
Electing women to office doesn't fix anything. This isn't about having the same power and influence as a man. Its not about taking over. Its about mutual respect and inclusion. Its about abolishing dominance and oppression. Source? This doesn't have anything to do with objectification so I'm not even sure what your point is here anyway. That women have power because they spend money? Show me where women drive the spending market. They don't. But that point is irrelevant anyway. Patriarchy is participated by women as well as men. This isn't about men v women. So instead of trying to figure out why this happens, you use it as a reason to label women as screwed up. Why are these women you're referring to acting this way?Your last paragraph dismisses patriarchy because you claim women have the power to influence and control just as much as a man. They do. And they participate in patriarchy as well. This isn't about men vs women. Its about society as a whole and the roles of oppression that we play in them.
Why do you think when a woman on tv or film is killed it is usually a dramatic, meaningful affair? Because we as a society view women as helpless. As a creature that cannot fend for themselves. We have this thrown at us constantly to the point where we no longer see them as equal, but as fragile beings that need our protection. And why wouldn't they? We live in a world where women are sexually objectified for profit. To sell anything. They are dehumanized in order to sell a product. It is a fact that when we dehumanize someone or something, it is easier for us to act out in violence against it.
Um no. We know the truth. Women are in the majority at about a60% to 40% ratio considering the most broad definition of dom violence. But the most violent acts including rape and murder are being done to women by a much larger margin. Source And since when is this a contest? A crushing defeat? A narrow margin? Its all awful.So you're saying since prison conditions involve men getting raped, then that negates rape against women in the outside world? That makes absolutely no sense. The prison system is one of the most repulsive and inhumane inventions we have ever come up with. But because awful things happen to men in there, its ok that similar things happen to women who are just walking to their car, or going to the store? No.
Freedom and individual rights are important. Freedom of expression and artistic freedom are essential in a good and happy society. Really for every individual in the world. Being able to respect other peoples opinion and how they prefer to live is also important. That is tolerance. People that think a woman in a computer game wearing a bikini is the end of the world are strange, IMO. And that they feel they need to attack developers and companies that are creating such games is odd. Clearly they dont have to play the games if they dont like them. There is no need to preach morals and ideology. I certainly dont want such values, morals or ideology to be part of my life. At least not when I play games.
Touche!
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Free beer?
Yes, because you're ability to generalize and state what "is really going on" in the minds of women, is so much better than using sex to sell.
Thank god for people who really know what's going on in the minds of others, how in the world would I ever be able to think for myself, without people like the guy I quoted doing all the thinking for me. I am grateful and thank you, good sir or madam, for stearing us all down the right path to tolerant behavior and objective thinking. Without your fingers muddling in my mind, and informing me how to properly think and behave, I would be a horrible, horrible person, not worthy of the air I breathe; unlike yourself.
I'm confused where he told you what to think rather than telling you something you could think about.
EDIT: Also, did Hurvart just say he doesn't want respect to be a part of games?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Yes, because you're ability to generalize and state what "is really going on" in the minds of women, is so much better than using sex to sell.
Thank god for people who really know what's going on in the minds of others, how in the world would I ever be able to think for myself, without people like the guy I quoted doing all the thinking for me. I am grateful and thank you, good sir or madam, for stearing us all down the right path to tolerant behavior and objective thinking. Without your fingers muddling in my mind, and informing me how to properly think and behave, I would be a horrible, horrible person, not worthy of the air I breathe; unlike yourself.
I'm not telling you how to think. I never said Trion was evil. I never said I was speaking for anyone. In fact, most of the things I'm talking about doesn't have anything to do with you, personally, or anyone in specific for that matter. Im commenting on our social structure. It is something to think about, not indoctrinate.
I have to shiver a bit at your post because I always find it disquieting when someone has recognized the evils of the world and wants to point them out to people, possibly "clucking their tongue" along the way.
My first thought is that we are wired to be "us". And though we try to be better people, in the end we are going to be what we are going to be. Within humanity there is a nature vs nurture battle that is always going on. Still, I don't believe that setting some high bar, a bar that is sort of academic in its conception, is really going to change us from what we are.
In the end, we are animals. We eat and procreate. Our whole drive is about eating and procreating. And though we do incredible things such as land small cars on mars and take sounds or color or words and weave them into something that is greater than the sum of its parts, we are still programmed with "eating and procreating".
It's just that our intelligence also makes us aware of sexuality in a more profound and perhaps complicated way.
Are there people out there who are victims? Are there people out there who don't know better? sure! Are there people out there who need help because they have gotten into situations where they should never be?
of course!
Are there people out there who embrace their sexuality and try ti imbue their lives with as much of it as possible? Because they are wired this way? um, "yea you bet".
I'm for a live and let live enviroment. I'm not for groups of people looking at other groups of people and creating very strict defiitions on what they should be doing, how they should be acting and how they don't know better because they are misguided, they are led astray or they can't let themselves be better and rise above.
Becuase you know what that is?
That's Plato's Republic.
It's the whole idea that mankind will always be lost unless the small group of learned philosophers take over leadership and shows them "the way" despite themselves. That only the philosophers are capapble of leading the unruly masses who can't possibly make good decisions as a society. That only a few are wise enough to lead the many.
And that type of thing just won't do.
Sex sells because it's who we are. We want to be sexual, we want to have it in our lives as much as we can stand. if people want to temper it that's great. More power to them. If people want to indulge and maximize it then that should be ok as well. If that is not to your liking and you want to say that it's because of the chains of society then that's your prerogative. You can hate and avoid the use of sexual images on games, in movies, on TV as much as you like. I'll fully support you in that. But that's where that ends.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Not talking about human sexuality. Not 'clucking' anything. Not trying to tell anyone how to think or feel. I'm not targeting any individuals or their behaviors. Of course you are entitled to whatever opinions you may have on any subject matter. I'm not talking about my opinion nor yours. If you'd take a moment to let down your guard, you'd hopefully see that I am not attacking or preaching or trying to manipulate. I'm commenting the society we live in. Thats it.
No. I respect other peoples opinions. But I also believe in freedom of choice. If someone wants to create games that are politically correct in every way and do everything to not offend anyone its fine. But I will not play them... I think that would be very boring. And if you are killing mobs and other players characters all the time that should be a bigger moral problem than bikinis, IMO.
I think others should respect my opinion. I respect them and I think I deserve that. And they should stop attacking games I like or the companies and developers that make them.
I think others should respect my opinion. I respect them and I think I deserve that. And they should stop attacking games I like or the companies and developers that make them.
Are you implying I attacked games and developers that you like? Because I didn't.
The problem isn't the existence, it's the purpose.
Some one wants to call nudity artistic and natural?
Then it has to be displayed in a natural way. Not an overt or engineered way. There is a difference between art and porn and it is in the display as well as intent behind it's existence.
You want freedom of choice for people to make and play games they want. Fine. Not one person has argued against that.
But don't try and pretend it's more or less than what it is.
That seems to be more the point than anything else in Foomerang's rhetoric.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
It was not my intention to single you out. In general I think people complaning about sexy women in video games want developers to listen to them and stop creating games like that. They think it is a problem and want change... Because that would help to create a society with less objectification of women. Trying to convince developers this would be the right thing to do is probably often the reason they complain. From my POV this means attacking the developers. Because I dont agree with the ideology and I dont want to recognize the problem.
If a developer listened to such advice and decided to change the games it would not be good from my POV. And I want to try to prevent it.
Except your commentary comes across as disaproving.
But ok, sure, let's back up.
Perhaps it is more about, as I mentioned above, how we are wired.
Getting slightly more on topic, the depiction of women in the Trion advertisment is very much like a pulp fiction rendition of women. A John Carter of Mars cover in the 60's. That whole Conan thing. The argument being that those covers, those types of stories are written by men and they depict women in a less flattering light.
I would argue that in some ways they depict women in an incredibly flattering if not raw and adolescent light. It's essentially men opening up their ID and expressing an appreciation for women, albeit in a very clumsy and faltering way.
As I said above, we are sexual beings. We eat and procreate. Regardless of whether we want families or not we have this built in biological imperative to continue the species. If we didn't have it we might not realy be here. All species have it. It's just that we, with our intellgience, attach "other things" to this because not only must we have sex, but we like sex. And we like being sexuallly attracted/attractive to people.
It's an explosion of appreciation that isn't tempered by our intelligence so much as it's just a "wow moment". And perhaps, because of our intelligence and all the things that go with it, it's a way for men to control the idea of women if not controlling women. And for heterosexual women they want to be attractive to men because they are built to make the babies. They have to attract a suitor. At least on a very fundamental biological level.
Now, having said that, in no way does this mean that men get to behave like asses and women have to have unwanted attention or be thought of as "less than".
They aren't objects, they are women. and heterosexual men want women. It's in our programming. So men reach down deeply and indulge that primitive part of their minds and create these very raw images that stem from that dark place that modern man doesn't like to acknowledge.
But again there is a difference between expressing this drive, this primitive expression and directly shoving it down someone's throat. I say directly because we in a society need to find our boundaries. I think it's an expression of our most primitive and fundamental nature and it's something to be celebrated by humanity, not looked at as women being viewed as slaves and men are controlling bastards.
as long as we acknowledge that this is a part of us and not everything that we are, that we acknowledge that it can be a good thing but something that must always be monitored lest we insult someone then it can be freeing and incredible.
So you know, "know your audience". for my tastes, anything that indulges in the sexuality of humanity, in all its forms, as long as everyone is consenting adults, is a good thing. In any case, I'm just shooting from the hip, I don't study this stuff it's more my observations of how things are.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's a fair notion, but you have to account for history to realize a few flaws.
The first and foremost flaw being perception of beauty. If you want to rail on the depiction of 'beautiful women' then you have to acknowledge what aspects are actually biological and what are artificial and superficial constructs.
That woman posted in the op? Not only is that form at best mediocre on the health spectrum, the only thing going for it is potential hip ratio as a biological reason they might be attractive. Every other aspect is at this point a cultural value and imposition, in spite of real effects on health, that have nothign to do with their actual ability to survive or procreate.
So sure, there's base instinct driving that to some degree, but it's a whole lot of bogus fantasy driven into our skulls piled on top of it.
Point being that you can appreciate that picture all you want, but that appreciation is not (or there is only the inkling of) going towards anything natural.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Gamer guys wonder why girls don't play MMOs could it possible having something to do with
http://spinksville.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/riftcenturions.jpg
my girlfriend play fantasy games for the same reason any guy would, she wants to feel like shes in another world. I don't get why she as a female must walk out and be eye candy for all the guys in the world, and to boot it all she can get stabbed right in the stomach.
I sort of agree but also disagree.
You say that the woman in the picture is medicore on the health spectrum? As far a procreation is my assumption.
I would say to early man "yes, you are correct". They probably would pass on her and go toward something shaped like this:
However, in light of modern advancements in medicine as well as an increase in our intelligence, those proportions aren't important anymore. I would say that the desire for women or desire to be attractive to men as well as some deep down desire to procreate is still there as strong as ever. However, because we have broadened our taste for what is considered beautiful and desireable, then we should consider that primitive drive as the engine and it's subtely changed due to intelligence and perception of beauty as well as evolving cultural ideas of beauty and desireability.
Our bodies, our genes know very little from one type of person to another. The informing instrucions are "procreate". We are just viewing possible mates through altered and expanded lenses. It's as if our head is sitting on an ancient machine that is powering us and yet that head heeds the instructions in a way that makes sense to our modern minds.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You make a lot of valid points. However in the context of this thread, I was talking about sexual objectification for the sake of selling a product. It happens in everything: food, cars, video games. Everything that can be bought and sold uses or has used sex as a marketing tool. Because sex feel good and we are hard wired to want it, it is used to associate with products for the sole purpose of monetary gian. And in the process, people are dehumanized and objectified. Whether voluntary or not, that is how it works in our society today. And I feel that is unfortunate.
Neh not really Sovrath. I don't even mean as far back as that either. IT's only recent history where skinny people even became ideal, and at this point we are reigning it back because there has been actual medical problems with the extremes to which that ideal has been taken.
Even on just modern standards you still see some of the initial inclinations though. Our genes actually know quite a lot from one body type to another, and there are plenty of individual case studies that agree to that.Like I mentioned the most apparent is the hips. the waist to hip ratio retains the same in many because even as a stick figure people still perceive the curvy nature of flared hips as being more beneficial, and it is for both procreation and personal health purposes.
It truly is only a very modern notion that people look the way they do, and you can't deny the fact that there is much that is artificial in the ideals. Even the one portrayed in the op is exceptionally artificial, and I'm not just meaning in that it's somewhat stylized to fit the Rift theme.
We haven't boradened our perception of anything, it has shifted as our means to control it has shifted.
EDIT: I also wanna add a response to Foomerang's last comment.
The most easily notable example being the trend in china of using outright naked women to sell cars at some places for car shows.
You thought the minidresses and skirts here were bad.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Well, it's true that I'm aware of, in the case of women, curvier being considered more attractive up until the last century (in the examples that come to mind - I'm sure someone could point out a society that doesn't have curvier people - However, Rubens comes to mind for a plumper ideal woman) but I'm convinced that the change in attitudes come from better medical care and as I mentioned, Our intelligence.
If you were to show anyone today a picture of what would be considered a generally beautiful person (on the average) but they were anorexic or incredibly obese, I think you would find more often than not that "most" people would not see them as desirable.
But there is a difference between anorexic and obese and "skinny and curvy".
As I said, our engine is one that is the same. The "deep, deep down" wants to procreate. But we can procreate with people of many different body types and for the most part still have babies and babies that live.
Now, our intelligence as well as our cultural perceptions help color what is desirable. Part of this could be seeing someone who is skinny (not anorexic) and just noting that they are different. Maybe we as a species are programmed to just "try" for the sake of genetic diversity?
Remember, if strong healthy males were only the wanted types of mates we probably wouldn't have evolved to a point where intelligence is a key factor. Could have started off intelligent health males and then the greater the intelligence, regardless of physical attributes, the better at surviving in an evolving society.
I kind of see humanity as a cake. The fundamentla cake is our fundamentl being and the icing, sprinkles, sugar flowers or "whatever" is our intelligence and sum of what happens in an evolving modern society.
Atraction to any human being is chemical. Our society, who we live with, who our siblings are, friends etc help fine tune what our bodies want.
Our bodies want sex. Sex in its most fundamental form is about procreating. Now add our intelligence, the sum of our knowledge, differences in our hormones, etc, and we get all sorts of things that, though driven by that fundamentla urge, is then steered toward other directions.
Being tied up and spanked is not procreating, I'll give you that. Or any other proclivities that humanity has added to its sexual repertoire.
We have this engine that wants sex and then we, as modern men/women have altered the direction of the car. The engine is still pluggin away but our minds, intelligence, advanced emotions then drive that care in unforeseen directions.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't see anything wrong here. It wouldn't be the best way to get me sold on a game but, using sex to sell violence sounds fine.
Actually using any mehtod necessary to sell any entertainment product sounds A OK with me. Well, short of the threatening of physical harm.
Games, Tv shows, movies etc... All optional. If there are any issues to be discussed, they should be first addressed at the parental level, then at early schooling because after that, all other influences are superficial, the damage has already been done.
AND considering the state of pornography on the internet, the fact that any of these game ad "models" have any clothes at all says something positive.... I think.
But I think that's it, it's more of a glass half full/half empty scenario.
You say taht because sex feels good and that we are hard wired to want it (which it is and which we are) it is used to asociate products for the sole purpose of monetary gain.
Though there is incredible truth to that I would also add that perhaps it's not just a "slap a brawny guy on that product or a scantily clad woman on another product and we'll make millions" but also that we has humans just "have sex on the brain".
We love our sex. In our own way and in our own forms. That in a sense we are voyeurs and exhibitionists. And we look to add sex everywhere simply because we love were it leads us.
Or in another sense, I can give you vanilla ice cream or I can give you that vanilla ice cream with sprinkles. We love our sprinkles so let's just add it!
It allows us to express and view sexuality in a socially acceptable mode. We get to look at, to gaze upon people that we find desirable and we get to be viewed, in public as our glorious and sexual selves with no apologies.
I just think it's who we are as a species. We want to be excited, titillated to be watched, to be the watcher.
And even if it wasn't used to get the attention of consumers (I'm convinced that just because you slap sexually desireable people on a prodcut doesn't mean that product will be successful, it will just get noticed) we would still allow those moments of exhibitionism/voyeurism to exist.
It's our societal pressure valve. It's that balance between our animal selves and our modern logical selves.
ok, will revisit the thread tomorrow... skyrim is calling.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo