So, the question is: how many hours/days of banging on keep doors will it take before people get tired of WvW? I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here as I remember this being the case in Warhammer Online. I guess GW2 does have other end game activities, but the same can be said about dungeons or anything you do in an MMO.
I know you were talking to somebody else but I can say that I beat on keep doors in Camelot for 4 straight years and never once got bored or tired of it. To this day it remains my favorite end game of all time.
Warhammer had a fairly crappy adaption of end game rvr imo, just my opinion. It wasn't even in the same league.
GW2 WvWvW feels a lot more like Camelot than Warhammer did, albeit minus the realm ranks which is fine by me.
Not saying that WvW should be the end all for all people, but for me it really is a perfect combination of large scale raiding and rvr.
WvWvW being fun does depend on others taking part in it, but I am banking on GW2 being a pretty successful mmorpg. Camelot only had what, 250k at their peak I think, and the RvR was amazing for a really long time to a lot of us.
My wife HATES pvp. But even she loved Camelots RvR at end game and played it for many years. It's a whole different level of pvp. Not to everyone's liking for sure, but certainly different enough from structured or open pvp that it can be a lot of fun to even those who are PvE'ers at heart.
I guess my point is that for some, WvW could possibly last many years and might never get boring. For other's I am sure it will get boring. But no game was never meant to please everyone.
Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
When you purchase your product make sure it has or does what you need it to not hope all products will change into what you want. GW2 basic group concept and design is different as such it's more about passive grouping. Just like everybody we been there doing the greedy grind (raiding) in many games for many years and I for one look forward to this change and are glad Anet had the balls ot do something different.
Originally posted by dageeza I could counter the OP with many equally or even more repulsive things about why raiders like to raid but i wont waste my time..;)
Then I'll give it a shot.
Raiders are most likely those who are in college or younger because people with jobs generally either have to carefully organize their time in order to squeeze in a raid, or simply don't have the time to do so.
Raiders are people who have been ridiculed in real life for a lack of skill, talent, or ambition, so they get the praise and ego from raiding because it's the only place they can excel.
The personality of a raider is generally that of a foulmouthed egomaniac who only sees other people in the raid as a means to the end; that is, phat lewt.
Raiders treat the game like work because it's all they have; take it away and they are worth nothing. That, or they love bossing people around.
ALSO, your opinon about raiding only matters if you complete it on the hardest difficulty, have over 9000 achievement points, have 2200 rating in Arena, and have played MMOs since the beginning of the genre. Everyone else is apparently a braindead shmuck who only exists to mindlessly praise the elite wannabes.
Does this apply to all raiders? Nope, I've met people who don't fit this. But the forums in which the truly horrid groups frequent can be nothing short of vile and mindblowingly condescending.
Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
Oh hey good evening. I'm ex-military as well, currently in the reserves after doing 10 years active. So that being said let me start by saying I like raids as well. Something about going into an unknown place and coordinating efforts to down bosses and getting nice loot in the process that has my rpg geeky side tingling. However I don't mind in the least that GW2 doesn't have it.
Of course that's one of the first things I looked for, however I just feel that this game really doesn't need it as their approach is not end game as most would put it. But if were going to talk about end game let's do so. I think with GW2 the journey is the reward as with other games say Rift for example (Love Rift btw) you get the reward at the end. Just 2 different ways of doing things.
You should relax and wait on this whole..it will keep me busy for awhile scenario.. who knows you might actually come to like the way they are choosing to approach this game.
I think the way things are now, there aren't enough people to do raids any more in their current form. The whole set time thing is hard to schedule and coordiante with people that have other issues going on. It would be nice though and if you or anyone is grouping up to do any exploring, dungeoning or whatever...just PM here. Well that is if we end up on the same server lol.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I'm sure this has already been said, but there is at least one major category that your list is missing:
People who did progression raiding for years and grew tired of it
I used to love raiding and was the longtime GM of a progression raiding guild. Then after 5 years or so it was enough.
I loved the people that I raided with, certainly, even when they did dumb things or we hit a wall. I liked the coordination that it took, and feeling good when we found a strategy that worked. I liked the gear that dropped, though this just turned out like slot machines in Vegas where the house always wins.
But at some point, I got tied of doing the same bosses week after week, or doing those same damn bosses on "harder modes" when normal was cleared. I got tired of the committment of doing it 5 nights per week so we could stay "ahead". I got tired of gear becoming outdated whenever the company decided to launch another raid.
Now if YOU still like raiding I don't begrudge you that. I suppose if ANet introduced 10 man instances I would play them and probably enjoy them, but they are NOT a condition of my enjoyment of GW2.
They MAY BE necessary FOR YOU to enjoy the game, in the short of long-term, but please don't make assumptions about either the people who don't raid nor about what people are looking for in a game. Additionally, every category that you list above, apart from the first one, can been seen as condescending, even if you don't intend it to be.
And just as an aside, how come "raiders" don't fully embrace LFR? Why is it that they get so mad when "normal" folks get gear that used to be exclusive to them?
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
So, the question is: how many hours/days of banging on keep doors will it take before people get tired of WvW? I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here as I remember this being the case in Warhammer Online.
WARs RvR failed not because it was boring but because it actually promoted not fighting at all. The most optimal way to play RvR was to trade keeps/flags, you got way more points by capturing them than trying to defend them. Then you had the issue of it being a 2 faction game, most servers where massively unbalanced and that just made it worse.
Theres also the fact that WAR itself is a game of poor quality, it was no where near games like WoW/GW2 in terms of its production. Things like broken end game systems and gear grinding never even got chance to become an issue because most people quit way before then.
GW2 on the other hand promotes the right type of gameplay, actually trying hold keeps, holding camps to cut off supply etc but still keeps the overall WvW gameplay relatively simple. Everyone has their limits of course when it comes to playing a game over the long term but to compare GW2 to WAR in such a simple way just shows a complete lack of understanding on your part.
Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
Whew! I thought most people complained due to the level of elitism, the lack of patience by, and the overall poor attitude of the people that raided. Seeing that it's the non-raiders fault due to being a thin skinned, lazy, basement dweller makes everything so much easier to understand! BTW, I still think raiding is over rated.
You do realize that reality =/= to loud shouting or whining on forums.
Yep I do. Pretty sure my post did neither.
The vast majority of raiders are not elitists min maxers who like to lord over their gear and l33t h4x0r skills over the stupid plebian n00bs. Do those people exist? yes. Like the OP i've been raiding in mmo's since original EQ, and out of the well over 500 different poeple i've raided with, maybe 15-20 were those douchey guys.
What you dont understand is we hate them just as much as you do.
Are their guilds comprised entirely of those type of people? Yes, but they might be 3 or 4 guilds out of the 50 or 60 that are progressing on the content.
Now, on the flip side of the coin, like the OP mentioned, is the average raider going to get pissed when someone can't learn after 5 or 6 tries not to stand in the big assed pire of exploding firey death? Yes, at some point we have to draw the line and tell someone they're simply either not capable of it, or not trying hard enough. Either way its producing a result that is holding everyone else back.
Just like if you're trying to compete for a football championship you don't grab some random guy off the street and let him play wide receiver just because you feel bad for him.
That doesn't make the people on the football team elitists with no patience and a poor attitude, its just reality.
The rest of this is basically stating that Yep there are mean people in these games, but not all of them are that way. I agree. However, my point was there are many, many reasons why people do not like raiding. Personally, I know raiding is available for only one reason. It's in the game to keep the top 5-10% of the game playing and paying their subscriptions. No one should argue that point since it's the only reason devs created this content the way they did. It provides 'content' to the devourers of 'content' so that the devs can focus on creating more real content.
Now we can argue if 'choosing teams' in the high school sense of the word is worthy of our time or if it's better to bring a long a weaker player because they bring something other than DPS, Healing, or Tanking to the table (some of my best times in game was with 'weaker' players because they reminded me how to have fun). Oh yeah, but this is about finishing the raid quickly, efficiently, and properly. These are also the goals I set forth for my employees. So yeah...your point is valid.
It's just a matter of taste. In video games. VIDEO GAMES. Since when did somebody preferring pong or pacman really amount to anything serious in the real world, or demonstrate a lack of character in some respect?
Since the race of man started walking the earth. Even before. Even animals show their personalities when playing. I have two cats. They don't play the same way, becouse they don't have the same personality. My brothers and I did not play the same games all the time when we were kids. I was into the chess, they were not. My friends who also play videogames, play different ones according to their personalities. My girlfriend plays the sims, I find that game stupid and boring but then she tells me I am nuts when I am checking gear combinations with my calculator just to get 0.1% more DPS.
It does show. Some people are good at analizing things and those are the guys who usually work out clever strategies for new challenges. Some people are lazy and those are the guys who don't pay attention and die easy. Etc etc.
Of all the living beeings in this planet, we, the human race, are most probably the most playful of them all, and yes, our personalities do show on the way we play and on what we play.
And, of course, there are always exceptions, becouse, we, human beeings, are so amazingly complex, but still you could tell the differences between a guy playing rugby and a guy doing ballet without ever having met the guys once, and you'd be right 99% of the times.
people REALLY don't like raiding because of elitest idiots who want the game to be about math rather then fun, no one plays a game to do calculus or geometry. if you like math that much go play Eve.
gw2 has raiding it's just not the type people are typically used to, it doesn't KEEP players from seeing content, the content is right there in front of you in the open world WITH CONSEQUENCES.
oh and you do have to be organized especially in a game like GW2 where there are no dedicated healers keeping your dps butt up, you actually have to think for a change which makes me wonder why people like OP are so against GW2's style of gaming, could it be that you are the one that can't handle the challenge?
I'm beginning to think so, because this post is no different then the posts about why pvp doesn't have armor with stats.
And finally, we've seen just how much the same old raids and dungeons have been received with a scifi sticker over the mechanics, SWTOR didn't just lose subs because of a lifeless meaningless world experience, it was also because of 2004 gaming concepts everyone has seen before.
Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. • They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. • They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others. • They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
And here's a few reasons people like raiding:
They like to wiggle their epeen single-drop raid pieces infront of other people.
They are controll freaks and like to tell people what to do during raids.
They think they're better than everyone else.
They think that there's only one way to play the game: their way.
Their job sucks in real life, so raiding makes them feel important.
I've raided many years and have come to realize that it only attracts people that are similar in fashion to the male sexual anatomy. They have no concept of "just for fun" and always have to have a carrot and a maze to get said carrot in order to justify whatever they do.
ArenaNet will NOT change their stance because it would require revamping the entire game's mechanics as well as other aspects of the game. Take it as it is, fun for many, but if you don't like the game: LEAVE IT ALONE AND DON'T PLAY IT! Geesh, it's so simple even a non-raider like myself can get it.
Originally posted by Krimzin Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. Ive been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didnt raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids arent needed.
After reading these type posts for some time Ive come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people dont like Raiding.
They dont have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully. They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass. They dont have a personality to speak of so they dont play well with others. They are too lazy to do the work, example They dont want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
Ive raided in every game Ive played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because Im ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but its a far cry for a raid. If they dont, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
Wouldn't a better post title be, "People Who Hate People Who Hate Raids Are Coming Out Of The Woodwork!"? Seriously. What I see is people being glad that GW2 doesn't have a raid, and then people who like raids bashing the people who like the fact that GW2 doesn't have a raid. The OP's post is a fairly extreme example, but typical.
What is so threatening about a game that doesn't have raids and people liking the fact that GW2 doesn't have raids?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I like raiding. I don't like it as the centerpiece of what to do once I get to max level though. Your typical controlled setting, choose your teammates raid the fun can only last so long for me and statistical upgrades to do the next encounter 50 times aren't enough.
It's simple, fear they will lose their seat of power at the top of their local raiding pecking order through the decline of their game- especially as its obvious that wow is the last bastion of stat based tier raiding.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
And, of course, there are always exceptions, becouse, we, human beeings, are so amazingly complex, but still you could tell the differences between a guy playing rugby and a guy doing ballet without ever having met the guys once, and you'd be right 99% of the times.
I would assume the guy doing ballet would have stronger calves, is better at picking grown people off the ground and flinging them across a room, and spends a lot more time hanging around with scantily clad women instead of sweaty dirty guys, and is more likely to end up doing work taking the role of a martial artist in a movie.
... man. Being a guy who does ballet sounds pretty badass.
Also, from my time at work, I'm pretty sure chess is mostly a sport for angry old black men who like to trash talk you 'Yeah, you see that? Your bishop. I took your bishop, you're my BITCH. Oh, you going to cry now?"
people REALLY don't like raiding because of elitest idiots who want the game to be about math rather then fun, no one plays a game to do calculus or geometry. if you like math that much go play Eve.
gw2 has raiding it's just not the type people are typically used to, it doesn't KEEP players from seeing content, the content is right there in front of you in the open world WITH CONSEQUENCES.
oh and you do have to be organized especially in a game like GW2 where there are no dedicated healers keeping your dps butt up, you actually have to think for a change which makes me wonder why people like OP are so against GW2's style of gaming, could it be that you are the one that can't handle the challenge?
I'm beginning to think so, because this post is no different then the posts about why pvp doesn't have armor with stats.
And finally, we've seen just how much the same old raids and dungeons have been received with a scifi sticker over the mechanics, SWTOR didn't just lose subs because of a lifeless meaningless world experience, it was also because of 2004 gaming concepts everyone has seen before.
yea i don't see why people feel just because it doesn't have instanced dungeon raids it doesn't have raiding. By any standard definition of raiding i have ever seen GW2 surely has raiding
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by clumsytoes44 Best raid's I have ever done was For The Horde achievement.
That was fun no matter what the result...too bad the overbuffing of guards and the loss of surprise attacks due to flight being allowed in the old world caused my realms interest in city raids to drop like a rock.
You do realize that reality =/= to loud shouting or whining on forums.
Yep I do. Pretty sure my post did neither.
*snip*
The rest of this is basically stating that Yep there are mean people in these games, but not all of them are that way. I agree. However, my point was there are many, many reasons why people do not like raiding. Personally, I know raiding is available for only one reason. It's in the game to keep the top 5-10% of the game playing and paying their subscriptions. No one should argue that point since it's the only reason devs created this content the way they did. It provides 'content' to the devourers of 'content' so that the devs can focus on creating more real content.
Now we can argue if 'choosing teams' in the high school sense of the word is worthy of our time or if it's better to bring a long a weaker player because they bring something other than DPS, Healing, or Tanking to the table (some of my best times in game was with 'weaker' players because they reminded me how to have fun). Oh yeah, but this is about finishing the raid quickly, efficiently, and properly. These are also the goals I set forth for my employees. So yeah...your point is valid.
I agree with you, in modern MMO's raiders are there for 2 reason, one, like you said, to keep that to 5-10% playing, and secondarily, its free content testing. So when it does trickle down to the more casual raiders or players, then they've gotten it all ironed out etc.
As for your second point, yes, there is a line. The guilds i tend to raid in are guilds that are what i would call second tier high end raiders, basically we're the ones who are 2-4 weeks behind the super tip top because most of us are working, having family's etc, and can't devote 6 hours a day, 5 days a week into raiding. Usually we will raid 2 or 3 days a week, and we have hard set stop times.
So whereas super uber guild of elitist douche bags may go "well, we're at 80% on this boss, and even though 10pm was our raid end time, you are all staying until we get this down because we're so close". Whereas a guild like mine might go, "hey guys, we're at 80%, its raid stop time, if EVERYONE wants to stay for a few more tries we can, otherwise we're shutting it down".
The point i was making is that its the guys from group A who are the ones who go on the forums and argue their particulat super e peen strats or builds or methods of avoiding this or that on the forums, and they're also the ones who piss off the more casual players. Guys like us generally aren't on the forums participating in those discussions, and we certainly have no desire to lord over anyone except maybe other competing guilds at our level, and then its just healthy competition.
Now, on your second point, i guess we have to define whats a weaker player. I personally have no issues and guilds like the one im have no issues bringing a mediocre player, as long as they can actually do the content. Ok, so maybe they're doing 3000 dps instead of 3800. Big whoop, we can make up for that. But if they consistently fail at basic raid mechanics like dodging ground AOE, or not staying behind a mob that cleaves, then they're ruining 19 other peoples time and fun etc. And its not wrong for telling them its time to either step up or leave. Its not elitist, its not assholey. Its being realistic.
I know that my being overweight and out of shape would severely hinder a team of rangers clearing a building, so im not going to suggest that i should be able to go with them and have them carry me. Sadly, some people would.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
"They think they are some kind of special, superior race. I'm glad I've never been infected by that crap mindset, even when we were clearing heroics like if they were normals."
Despite starting off as being understanding, the OP just completely overgeneralizes (and bashes) a majority of his points. Well whatever, I play the game because I enjoy it, I stopped playing things like WoW and its clones after I got tired of the same repetitive droning for gear from one place in order to drone over the next area for the next set. After a while its not fun.
] [/quote] The rest of this is basically stating that Yep there are mean people in these games, but not all of them are that way. I agree. However, my point was there are many, many reasons why people do not like raiding. Personally, I know raiding is available for only one reason. It's in the game to keep the top 5-10% of the game playing and paying their subscriptions. No one should argue that point since it's the only reason devs created this content the way they did. It provides 'content' to the devourers of 'content' so that the devs can focus on creating more real content. Now we can argue if 'choosing teams' in the high school sense of the word is worthy of our time or if it's better to bring a long a weaker player because they bring something other than DPS, Healing, or Tanking to the table (some of my best times in game was with 'weaker' players because they reminded me how to have fun). Oh yeah, but this is about finishing the raid quickly, efficiently, and properly. These are also the goals I set forth for my employees. So yeah...your point is valid.[/quote]I agree with you, in modern MMO's raiders are there for 2 reason, one, like you said, to keep that to 5-10% playing, and secondarily, its free content testing. So when it does trickle down to the more casual raiders or players, then they've gotten it all ironed out etc.
As for your second point, yes, there is a line. The guilds i tend to raid in are guilds that are what i would call second tier high end raiders, basically we're the ones who are 2-4 weeks behind the super tip top because most of us are working, having family's etc, and can't devote 6 hours a day, 5 days a week into raiding. Usually we will raid 2 or 3 days a week, and we have hard set stop times.
So whereas super uber guild of elitist douche bags may go "well, we're at 80% on this boss, and even though 10pm was our raid end time, you are all staying until we get this down because we're so close". Whereas a guild like mine might go, "hey guys, we're at 80%, its raid stop time, if EVERYONE wants to stay for a few more tries we can, otherwise we're shutting it down".
The point i was making is that its the guys from group A who are the ones who go on the forums and argue their particulat super e peen strats or builds or methods of avoiding this or that on the forums, and they're also the ones who piss off the more casual players. Guys like us generally aren't on the forums participating in those discussions, and we certainly have no desire to lord over anyone except maybe other competing guilds at our level, and then its just healthy competition.
Now, on your second point, i guess we have to define whats a weaker player. I personally have no issues and guilds like the one im have no issues bringing a mediocre player, as long as they can actually do the content. Ok, so maybe they're doing 3000 dps instead of 3800. Big whoop, we can make up for that. But if they consistently fail at basic raid mechanics like dodging ground AOE, or not staying behind a mob that cleaves, then they're ruining 19 other peoples time and fun etc. And its not wrong for telling them its time to either step up or leave. Its not elitist, its not assholey. Its being realistic.
I know that my being overweight and out of shape would severely hinder a team of rangers clearing a building, so im not going to suggest that i should be able to go with them and have them carry me. Sadly, some people would.[/b][/quote]
This is exactly what raiding im talking about. Im not talking about the douche bag elitist. I enjoy raiding with a guild of people I enjoy running with. We have set stop times and extra players to fill in when RL shit comes up, which is does often.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base. I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.
After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders. There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.
• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid
I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it. I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.
I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid. If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.
1. Wrong. I played, on average, more than most people.
2. I was one of the two 'first string' tanks in my guild and well respected through-out the server. Even when I log back in to visit, I get tons of invites, some for raids added after i left. I was also well respected as a Rune-Keeper healer and had a Mini, too. I was even invited to be the #1 Captain on a Raid the first day my Captain hit Level 75, even though he had NO raid gear and I couldn't trait the full Leader of Men skill-set.
3. I was a guild officer. I've started and run successful guilds in many games and almost always end up in some officer role. I've been recruited to elite guilds in every game I've played and never been rejected for being a toss-pot. I'm well known as a socializer/master-craftsman type who will help anyone, noob-to-elite with no expectations of reward or a 'payback.' I will, to support my guild, even do things that I don't care about -- like PvP and Raiding -- because I'm a team player. My friends' list is long and full of people from elite-gamers to total-noobs all of whom I treat with the respect due from how they treat others and not some silly game 'Elitist' achievments that have zero worth in the real world.
4. Nope. I had full raid gear on all my 75s. I had Second-age legendary weapons. I had elite jewelry.
Looks like, to me, you're talking out your butt. You want to make up reasons why YOU are SUPERIOR to others. That OTHERS hate raiding because they are INFERIOR.
I hate raiding because it's ****ing boring! Sure, the first couple of times when you're learning the raid it's fun. But then, it's the same crap every week.
I look at dedicated raiders as people who go to Baskin-Robbins once a week and eat nothing but a scoop of vanilla for three months. Then eat a scoop of chocolate for three months. Then eat a scoop of strawberry for three months. Then start back with vanilla... It's 31-Flavors. Break out and enjoy something else!
So I say screw that raider raid-grinding mindset. I get a new flavor each week. I often mix-and-match. Better yet, sometimes I skip the ice-cream store and get pastries. Or donuts. Or frozen yogurt.
Raiding may as well be playing a Korean grind-fest MMO. Same stupid crap every week for months. And no matter how many times I explain this... Some people never get it...
Whew! I thought most people complained due to the level of elitism, the lack of patience by, and the overall poor attitude of the people that raided. Seeing that it's the non-raiders fault due to being a thin skinned, lazy, basement dweller makes everything so much easier to understand! BTW, I still think raiding is over rated.
Comments
I know you were talking to somebody else but I can say that I beat on keep doors in Camelot for 4 straight years and never once got bored or tired of it. To this day it remains my favorite end game of all time.
Warhammer had a fairly crappy adaption of end game rvr imo, just my opinion. It wasn't even in the same league.
GW2 WvWvW feels a lot more like Camelot than Warhammer did, albeit minus the realm ranks which is fine by me.
Not saying that WvW should be the end all for all people, but for me it really is a perfect combination of large scale raiding and rvr.
WvWvW being fun does depend on others taking part in it, but I am banking on GW2 being a pretty successful mmorpg. Camelot only had what, 250k at their peak I think, and the RvR was amazing for a really long time to a lot of us.
My wife HATES pvp. But even she loved Camelots RvR at end game and played it for many years. It's a whole different level of pvp. Not to everyone's liking for sure, but certainly different enough from structured or open pvp that it can be a lot of fun to even those who are PvE'ers at heart.
I guess my point is that for some, WvW could possibly last many years and might never get boring. For other's I am sure it will get boring. But no game was never meant to please everyone.
When you purchase your product make sure it has or does what you need it to not hope all products will change into what you want. GW2 basic group concept and design is different as such it's more about passive grouping. Just like everybody we been there doing the greedy grind (raiding) in many games for many years and I for one look forward to this change and are glad Anet had the balls ot do something different.
Then I'll give it a shot.
Oh hey good evening. I'm ex-military as well, currently in the reserves after doing 10 years active. So that being said let me start by saying I like raids as well. Something about going into an unknown place and coordinating efforts to down bosses and getting nice loot in the process that has my rpg geeky side tingling. However I don't mind in the least that GW2 doesn't have it.
Of course that's one of the first things I looked for, however I just feel that this game really doesn't need it as their approach is not end game as most would put it. But if were going to talk about end game let's do so. I think with GW2 the journey is the reward as with other games say Rift for example (Love Rift btw) you get the reward at the end. Just 2 different ways of doing things.
You should relax and wait on this whole..it will keep me busy for awhile scenario.. who knows you might actually come to like the way they are choosing to approach this game.
I think the way things are now, there aren't enough people to do raids any more in their current form. The whole set time thing is hard to schedule and coordiante with people that have other issues going on. It would be nice though and if you or anyone is grouping up to do any exploring, dungeoning or whatever...just PM here. Well that is if we end up on the same server lol.
I'm sure this has already been said, but there is at least one major category that your list is missing:
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
WARs RvR failed not because it was boring but because it actually promoted not fighting at all. The most optimal way to play RvR was to trade keeps/flags, you got way more points by capturing them than trying to defend them. Then you had the issue of it being a 2 faction game, most servers where massively unbalanced and that just made it worse.
Theres also the fact that WAR itself is a game of poor quality, it was no where near games like WoW/GW2 in terms of its production. Things like broken end game systems and gear grinding never even got chance to become an issue because most people quit way before then.
GW2 on the other hand promotes the right type of gameplay, actually trying hold keeps, holding camps to cut off supply etc but still keeps the overall WvW gameplay relatively simple. Everyone has their limits of course when it comes to playing a game over the long term but to compare GW2 to WAR in such a simple way just shows a complete lack of understanding on your part.
Yep I do. Pretty sure my post did neither.
The rest of this is basically stating that Yep there are mean people in these games, but not all of them are that way. I agree. However, my point was there are many, many reasons why people do not like raiding. Personally, I know raiding is available for only one reason. It's in the game to keep the top 5-10% of the game playing and paying their subscriptions. No one should argue that point since it's the only reason devs created this content the way they did. It provides 'content' to the devourers of 'content' so that the devs can focus on creating more real content.
Now we can argue if 'choosing teams' in the high school sense of the word is worthy of our time or if it's better to bring a long a weaker player because they bring something other than DPS, Healing, or Tanking to the table (some of my best times in game was with 'weaker' players because they reminded me how to have fun). Oh yeah, but this is about finishing the raid quickly, efficiently, and properly. These are also the goals I set forth for my employees. So yeah...your point is valid.
Since the race of man started walking the earth. Even before. Even animals show their personalities when playing. I have two cats. They don't play the same way, becouse they don't have the same personality. My brothers and I did not play the same games all the time when we were kids. I was into the chess, they were not. My friends who also play videogames, play different ones according to their personalities. My girlfriend plays the sims, I find that game stupid and boring but then she tells me I am nuts when I am checking gear combinations with my calculator just to get 0.1% more DPS.
It does show. Some people are good at analizing things and those are the guys who usually work out clever strategies for new challenges. Some people are lazy and those are the guys who don't pay attention and die easy. Etc etc.
Of all the living beeings in this planet, we, the human race, are most probably the most playful of them all, and yes, our personalities do show on the way we play and on what we play.
And, of course, there are always exceptions, becouse, we, human beeings, are so amazingly complex, but still you could tell the differences between a guy playing rugby and a guy doing ballet without ever having met the guys once, and you'd be right 99% of the times.
two flaws in your argument.
people REALLY don't like raiding because of elitest idiots who want the game to be about math rather then fun, no one plays a game to do calculus or geometry. if you like math that much go play Eve.
gw2 has raiding it's just not the type people are typically used to, it doesn't KEEP players from seeing content, the content is right there in front of you in the open world WITH CONSEQUENCES.
oh and you do have to be organized especially in a game like GW2 where there are no dedicated healers keeping your dps butt up, you actually have to think for a change which makes me wonder why people like OP are so against GW2's style of gaming, could it be that you are the one that can't handle the challenge?
I'm beginning to think so, because this post is no different then the posts about why pvp doesn't have armor with stats.
And finally, we've seen just how much the same old raids and dungeons have been received with a scifi sticker over the mechanics, SWTOR didn't just lose subs because of a lifeless meaningless world experience, it was also because of 2004 gaming concepts everyone has seen before.
And here's a few reasons people like raiding:
Wouldn't a better post title be, "People Who Hate People Who Hate Raids Are Coming Out Of The Woodwork!"? Seriously. What I see is people being glad that GW2 doesn't have a raid, and then people who like raids bashing the people who like the fact that GW2 doesn't have a raid. The OP's post is a fairly extreme example, but typical.
What is so threatening about a game that doesn't have raids and people liking the fact that GW2 doesn't have raids?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I would assume the guy doing ballet would have stronger calves, is better at picking grown people off the ground and flinging them across a room, and spends a lot more time hanging around with scantily clad women instead of sweaty dirty guys, and is more likely to end up doing work taking the role of a martial artist in a movie.
... man. Being a guy who does ballet sounds pretty badass.
Also, from my time at work, I'm pretty sure chess is mostly a sport for angry old black men who like to trash talk you 'Yeah, you see that? Your bishop. I took your bishop, you're my BITCH. Oh, you going to cry now?"
... that's my personal experience, anyway.
yea i don't see why people feel just because it doesn't have instanced dungeon raids it doesn't have raiding. By any standard definition of raiding i have ever seen GW2 surely has raiding
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
That was fun no matter what the result...too bad the overbuffing of guards and the loss of surprise attacks due to flight being allowed in the old world caused my realms interest in city raids to drop like a rock.
I agree with you, in modern MMO's raiders are there for 2 reason, one, like you said, to keep that to 5-10% playing, and secondarily, its free content testing. So when it does trickle down to the more casual raiders or players, then they've gotten it all ironed out etc.
As for your second point, yes, there is a line. The guilds i tend to raid in are guilds that are what i would call second tier high end raiders, basically we're the ones who are 2-4 weeks behind the super tip top because most of us are working, having family's etc, and can't devote 6 hours a day, 5 days a week into raiding. Usually we will raid 2 or 3 days a week, and we have hard set stop times.
So whereas super uber guild of elitist douche bags may go "well, we're at 80% on this boss, and even though 10pm was our raid end time, you are all staying until we get this down because we're so close". Whereas a guild like mine might go, "hey guys, we're at 80%, its raid stop time, if EVERYONE wants to stay for a few more tries we can, otherwise we're shutting it down".
The point i was making is that its the guys from group A who are the ones who go on the forums and argue their particulat super e peen strats or builds or methods of avoiding this or that on the forums, and they're also the ones who piss off the more casual players. Guys like us generally aren't on the forums participating in those discussions, and we certainly have no desire to lord over anyone except maybe other competing guilds at our level, and then its just healthy competition.
Now, on your second point, i guess we have to define whats a weaker player. I personally have no issues and guilds like the one im have no issues bringing a mediocre player, as long as they can actually do the content. Ok, so maybe they're doing 3000 dps instead of 3800. Big whoop, we can make up for that. But if they consistently fail at basic raid mechanics like dodging ground AOE, or not staying behind a mob that cleaves, then they're ruining 19 other peoples time and fun etc. And its not wrong for telling them its time to either step up or leave. Its not elitist, its not assholey. Its being realistic.
I know that my being overweight and out of shape would severely hinder a team of rangers clearing a building, so im not going to suggest that i should be able to go with them and have them carry me. Sadly, some people would.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
"They think they are some kind of special, superior race. I'm glad I've never been infected by that crap mindset, even when we were clearing heroics like if they were normals."
Roflmao, heroics2gud
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/359874/Aerowyns-Video-Compilation-of-ALL-things-Guild-Wars-2.html
] [/quote] The rest of this is basically stating that Yep there are mean people in these games, but not all of them are that way. I agree. However, my point was there are many, many reasons why people do not like raiding. Personally, I know raiding is available for only one reason. It's in the game to keep the top 5-10% of the game playing and paying their subscriptions. No one should argue that point since it's the only reason devs created this content the way they did. It provides 'content' to the devourers of 'content' so that the devs can focus on creating more real content. Now we can argue if 'choosing teams' in the high school sense of the word is worthy of our time or if it's better to bring a long a weaker player because they bring something other than DPS, Healing, or Tanking to the table (some of my best times in game was with 'weaker' players because they reminded me how to have fun). Oh yeah, but this is about finishing the raid quickly, efficiently, and properly. These are also the goals I set forth for my employees. So yeah...your point is valid.[/quote]I agree with you, in modern MMO's raiders are there for 2 reason, one, like you said, to keep that to 5-10% playing, and secondarily, its free content testing. So when it does trickle down to the more casual raiders or players, then they've gotten it all ironed out etc.
As for your second point, yes, there is a line. The guilds i tend to raid in are guilds that are what i would call second tier high end raiders, basically we're the ones who are 2-4 weeks behind the super tip top because most of us are working, having family's etc, and can't devote 6 hours a day, 5 days a week into raiding. Usually we will raid 2 or 3 days a week, and we have hard set stop times.
So whereas super uber guild of elitist douche bags may go "well, we're at 80% on this boss, and even though 10pm was our raid end time, you are all staying until we get this down because we're so close". Whereas a guild like mine might go, "hey guys, we're at 80%, its raid stop time, if EVERYONE wants to stay for a few more tries we can, otherwise we're shutting it down".
The point i was making is that its the guys from group A who are the ones who go on the forums and argue their particulat super e peen strats or builds or methods of avoiding this or that on the forums, and they're also the ones who piss off the more casual players. Guys like us generally aren't on the forums participating in those discussions, and we certainly have no desire to lord over anyone except maybe other competing guilds at our level, and then its just healthy competition.
Now, on your second point, i guess we have to define whats a weaker player. I personally have no issues and guilds like the one im have no issues bringing a mediocre player, as long as they can actually do the content. Ok, so maybe they're doing 3000 dps instead of 3800. Big whoop, we can make up for that. But if they consistently fail at basic raid mechanics like dodging ground AOE, or not staying behind a mob that cleaves, then they're ruining 19 other peoples time and fun etc. And its not wrong for telling them its time to either step up or leave. Its not elitist, its not assholey. Its being realistic.
I know that my being overweight and out of shape would severely hinder a team of rangers clearing a building, so im not going to suggest that i should be able to go with them and have them carry me. Sadly, some people would.[/b][/quote]
This is exactly what raiding im talking about. Im not talking about the douche bag elitist. I enjoy raiding with a guild of people I enjoy running with. We have set stop times and extra players to fill in when RL shit comes up, which is does often.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
1. Wrong. I played, on average, more than most people.
2. I was one of the two 'first string' tanks in my guild and well respected through-out the server. Even when I log back in to visit, I get tons of invites, some for raids added after i left. I was also well respected as a Rune-Keeper healer and had a Mini, too. I was even invited to be the #1 Captain on a Raid the first day my Captain hit Level 75, even though he had NO raid gear and I couldn't trait the full Leader of Men skill-set.
3. I was a guild officer. I've started and run successful guilds in many games and almost always end up in some officer role. I've been recruited to elite guilds in every game I've played and never been rejected for being a toss-pot. I'm well known as a socializer/master-craftsman type who will help anyone, noob-to-elite with no expectations of reward or a 'payback.' I will, to support my guild, even do things that I don't care about -- like PvP and Raiding -- because I'm a team player. My friends' list is long and full of people from elite-gamers to total-noobs all of whom I treat with the respect due from how they treat others and not some silly game 'Elitist' achievments that have zero worth in the real world.
4. Nope. I had full raid gear on all my 75s. I had Second-age legendary weapons. I had elite jewelry.
Looks like, to me, you're talking out your butt. You want to make up reasons why YOU are SUPERIOR to others. That OTHERS hate raiding because they are INFERIOR.
I hate raiding because it's ****ing boring! Sure, the first couple of times when you're learning the raid it's fun. But then, it's the same crap every week.
I look at dedicated raiders as people who go to Baskin-Robbins once a week and eat nothing but a scoop of vanilla for three months. Then eat a scoop of chocolate for three months. Then eat a scoop of strawberry for three months. Then start back with vanilla... It's 31-Flavors. Break out and enjoy something else!
So I say screw that raider raid-grinding mindset. I get a new flavor each week. I often mix-and-match. Better yet, sometimes I skip the ice-cream store and get pastries. Or donuts. Or frozen yogurt.
Raiding may as well be playing a Korean grind-fest MMO. Same stupid crap every week for months. And no matter how many times I explain this... Some people never get it...
lol. Great response.