The problem really is that Bioware tried to make a MMO like a singleplayer game.
The problem with that is that most people spend a short time playing a singleplayer RPG. 1-8 weeks is probably average.
And people really enjoyed TOR that long and then grow tired of the game.
Changing how people pay does not really change the fundamental problem of the game, I bougt DA2 and can play it as long as I want but I was done with it after a week or so and I feel no need to play it again even though that would cost me nothing.
TOR must figure out some ways to have the players amused for a long time and implement them in the game. They might steal from other games or invent new things but they must make the game more fun to play in the long run, not just fun in the short term.
If 1-8 weeks is the average then nobody in that mix has played Skyrim lol.
Oddly my impression of Skyrimm was simlar to that of SWTOR. I was warned that it was easy to rush through the main story, so I avoided it and the Civil War quests. As my charcter became head of the Companions, the Mage's College, the Thieve's Guild, the Dark Brotherhood; I realized that my descions had little affect on anything. The dungeons wee all similar and uninspired. Combat was repetitive and easy. I don;t recall dying more then a few times ever. The few times I had a companion were annoying. The game became unenjoyable and I stopped, many hours in, but I stopped in about a month. In many ways my complaints were very simlar to my complaints obout SWTOR. In the end, a bad game is a bad game, be it sandbox or themepark.
I don't believe it is fair to call either game a bad game simply because you did not like them. Both games have solid core game mechanics and there are still people who are playing both months after launch.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
I don't believe it is fair to call either game a bad game simply because you did not like them. Both games have solid core game mechanics and there are still people who are playing both months after launch.
In my opinion the games suffered from similar problems. Not that my opinion is any more valid then anyone else's. I only thought it intresting to compare the two because one is sandbox and one is themepark. (Also one is considered a hit and one a miss, furthermore, Skyrim is in essence coming out as an MMO soon with TES online.)
I don't believe it is fair to call either game a bad game simply because you did not like them. Both games have solid core game mechanics and there are still people who are playing both months after launch.
In my opinion the games suffered from similar problems. Not that my opinion is any more valid then anyone else's. I only thought it intresting to compare the two because one is sandbox and one is themepark. (Also one is considered a hit and one a miss, furthermore, Skyrim is in essence coming out as an MMO soon with TES online.)
Unfortunately for TESO it won"t be using the one thing that I found made Skyrim great; namely its skill system and combat.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
Oddly my impression of Skyrimm was simlar to that of SWTOR. I was warned that it was easy to rush through the main story, so I avoided it and the Civil War quests. As my charcter became head of the Companions, the Mage's College, the Thieve's Guild, the Dark Brotherhood; I realized that my descions had little affect on anything. The dungeons wee all similar and uninspired. Combat was repetitive and easy. I don;t recall dying more then a few times ever. The few times I had a companion were annoying. The game became unenjoyable and I stopped, many hours in, but I stopped in about a month. In many ways my complaints were very simlar to my complaints obout SWTOR. In the end, a bad game is a bad game, be it sandbox or themepark.
I don't believe it is fair to call either game a bad game simply because you did not like them. Both games have solid core game mechanics and there are still people who are playing both months after launch.
Originally posted by Gdemami
Originally posted by tiefighter25
Not that my opinion is any more valid then anyone else's.
No, it is not, your opinion is completely invalid.
Juts because you do not like the game does not make it a "bad" game, it just make it a game you do not like. 2 different things...
Are you suggesting that in your opinion my opinion in invalid because you say so? Because Dude, yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.
The problem really is that Bioware tried to make a MMO like a singleplayer game.
The problem with that is that most people spend a short time playing a singleplayer RPG. 1-8 weeks is probably average.
And people really enjoyed TOR that long and then grow tired of the game.
Changing how people pay does not really change the fundamental problem of the game, I bougt DA2 and can play it as long as I want but I was done with it after a week or so and I feel no need to play it again even though that would cost me nothing.
TOR must figure out some ways to have the players amused for a long time and implement them in the game. They might steal from other games or invent new things but they must make the game more fun to play in the long run, not just fun in the short term.
If 1-8 weeks is the average then nobody in that mix has played Skyrim lol.
Oddly my impression of Skyrimm was simlar to that of SWTOR. I was warned that it was easy to rush through the main story, so I avoided it and the Civil War quests. As my charcter became head of the Companions, the Mage's College, the Thieve's Guild, the Dark Brotherhood; I realized that my descions had little affect on anything. The dungeons wee all similar and uninspired. Combat was repetitive and easy. I don;t recall dying more then a few times ever. The few times I had a companion were annoying. The game became unenjoyable and I stopped, many hours in, but I stopped in about a month. In many ways my complaints were very simlar to my complaints obout SWTOR. In the end, a bad game is a bad game, be it sandbox or themepark.
Nothing wrong with not liking something. I've never heard of any comparisons between Skyrim and SWTOR so that was a little odd to read, but you are entitled to your opinion. I'm an explorer which is why I'm loving Skyrim. I do notice the world changing from various things you do and it is certaintly not even remotely close to the linear feel of TOR...but to each his own.
If 1-8 weeks is the average then nobody in that mix has played Skyrim lol.
I was thinking of average game, average gamer.
Skyrim might average slightly over 8 weeks but if you took everyone who bought it and got the average time I am pretty sure it wouldn´t be more than 2 months anyways, 3 tops.
And of course there are exceptions anyways, heck I still play a moded version of CIV IV myself even though that type of game generally live longer than RPGs.
I still believe that in average MMO players play the same game longer than single player players (even if they in fact are the same persons).
If 1-8 weeks is the average then nobody in that mix has played Skyrim lol.
I was thinking of average game, average gamer.
Skyrim might average slightly over 8 weeks but if you took everyone who bought it and got the average time I am pretty sure it wouldn´t be more than 2 months anyways, 3 tops.
And of course there are exceptions anyways, heck I still play a moded version of CIV IV myself even though that type of game generally live longer than RPGs.
I still believe that in average MMO players play the same game longer than single player players (even if they in fact are the same persons).
I think Im just not average because with my work schedule, the gym and tennis I can only play maybe 1-3 hours a day, sometimes zero so even getting to level 42 in TOR took me about 5 months (before I stopped lol). I think I get more time in these forums because they don't block this at work :-)
I do not even think it is a matter of sandbox vs. themepark....unfortunately, it was/is just a bad game and a terrible use of the Star Wars license. Most aspects of the game are just not fun, plain and simple.
In a nutshell I had simlar letdown experieces with Skyrim and SWTOR storytelling aspects. No matter what I did, it seemed to me the only real descion in the both games was Empire or Rebel. In both you will eventually finish the "class" quests and be the uber hero of the universe.
Are you suggesting that in your opinion my opinion in invalid because you say so? Because Dude, yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.
I am suggesting you to re-read my post... [mod edit]
Originally posted by NoLimit5401 I do not even think it is a matter of sandbox vs. themepark....unfortunately, it was/is just a bad game and a terrible use of the Star Wars license. Most aspects of the game are just not fun, plain and simple.
I dissagree I think it is a fun game just lacking in endgame combat; plain and simple.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
Are you suggesting that in your opinion my opinion in invalid because you say so? Because Dude, yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.
I am suggesting you to re-read my post...[mod edit]
All you've said in this thread is that my opinion is invalid. Are you mixing this up with the other thread where you were arguing that SWTOR isn't a financial boondogle?
You seem to spend a lot of time in these forums calling me stupid and proclaiming that which is fact is actually misconception, and who's opinions are wrong and how your opinions are correct, albeit in a disjointed, antagonistic, and confusing manner.
So, the question is; is SW:ToR over or is this just the beggining of its second coming.
For me its over and i will never go back. It really is a shame, but they lie and cover up so many things, that I really want no part of Bioware ever again.
What did they lie about? I find it funny how people will claim said "game developer lied" then never actually say what it eas they lied abourt.
I try not to remeber them all lol! Here are just a few:
EA responds to rumors of layoffs: "There are no lay-offs as such, we always have projects growing and morphing. At any given time there are new people coming in and others leaving. EA is growing and hiring and building teams to support the growing demand for digital games and services." and then there are layoffs http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/rumour-ea-preparing-for-500-1-000-layoffs/094475
I personally was lied to about by ship date on my SWTOR purchase through Origin. Another customer service rep was truthful.
Release date Spring 2011. Yea a lot of games get put on hold, but most companies acknowledge it and not pretend it wasn't changed.
James Ohlen "multiple players fighting a single mob is not heroic" well guess what our raids were lol.
again there are more, but I dont want to get into it in this thread. I am just defending myself. All I stated is to the topic of the OP which is why I am done with SWTOR.
So, the question is; is SW:ToR over or is this just the beggining of its second coming.
For me its over and i will never go back. It really is a shame, but they lie and cover up so many things, that I really want no part of Bioware ever again.
What did they lie about? I find it funny how people will claim said "game developer lied" then never actually say what it eas they lied abourt.
I try not to remeber them all lol! Here are just a few:
EA responds to rumors of layoffs: "There are no lay-offs as such, we always have projects growing and morphing. At any given time there are new people coming in and others leaving. EA is growing and hiring and building teams to support the growing demand for digital games and services." and then there are layoffs http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/rumour-ea-preparing-for-500-1-000-layoffs/094475
I personally was lied to about by ship date on my SWTOR purchase through Origin. Another customer service rep was truthful.
Release date Spring 2011. Yea a lot of games get put on hold, but most companies acknowledge it and not pretend it wasn't changed.
James Ohlen "multiple players fighting a single mob is not heroic" well guess what our raids were lol.
again there are more, but I dont want to get into it in this thread. I am just defending myself. All I stated is to the topic of the OP which is why I am done with SWTOR.
Subjective truths are not necessarily lies, and yes I know that statement may make me look like a blind fanboi(which I am not).
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
Originally posted by NoLimit5401 I do not even think it is a matter of sandbox vs. themepark....unfortunately, it was/is just a bad game and a terrible use of the Star Wars license. Most aspects of the game are just not fun, plain and simple.
I'm always amazed how many target the TOR forums with bashing with only 1 post...or very few. I think some of you need to learn how to say "In my opinion". The reality is that If you like WOW mechanics with a Age of conan Tortage style questing and a story that is far more interesting then either game, there is absolutely nothing wrong here. It just didn't meet the expectations of many who were hoping it was less linear, more sandboxy, and more group focused. However, its just as good as most of the MMOs that have been released in the last few years. It kept my attention much longer than Aion, Rift, Vanguard, Warhammer, or Age of Conan...and several others.
Originally posted by Kakkzooka This should be as entertaining as the "Why Betamax is not down for the count!" thread.
Funny, but none the less wrong example. Game mechanics and technological inovation don;t coralate(in other words "apples to oranges"). Just because some people don't like one type of game does not mean others won't. Game mechanics never get stale.
That's why we have PONG and DUCK HUNT at IPL each year.. wait..
So, the question is; is SW:ToR over or is this just the beggining of its second coming.
For me its over and i will never go back. It really is a shame, but they lie and cover up so many things, that I really want no part of Bioware ever again.
What did they lie about? I find it funny how people will claim said "game developer lied" then never actually say what it eas they lied abourt.
I try not to remeber them all lol! Here are just a few:
EA responds to rumors of layoffs: "There are no lay-offs as such, we always have projects growing and morphing. At any given time there are new people coming in and others leaving. EA is growing and hiring and building teams to support the growing demand for digital games and services." and then there are layoffs http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/rumour-ea-preparing-for-500-1-000-layoffs/094475
I personally was lied to about by ship date on my SWTOR purchase through Origin. Another customer service rep was truthful.
Release date Spring 2011. Yea a lot of games get put on hold, but most companies acknowledge it and not pretend it wasn't changed.
James Ohlen "multiple players fighting a single mob is not heroic" well guess what our raids were lol.
again there are more, but I dont want to get into it in this thread. I am just defending myself. All I stated is to the topic of the OP which is why I am done with SWTOR.
Subjective truths are not necessarily lies, and yes I know that statement may make me look like a blind fanboi(which I am not).
truth isnt something that can be manipulated, as soon as that happens, it becomes a lie, by the very definition of the word, its why statistics have such a bad reputation, statistics takes a whole lot of 'truths' and manipulates them, or is should say, rearranges them, to give a desired value. It happens all the time, in marketing, sales, investment banking.. whatever, but its still a lie
its a bit like the recovering alcoholic thing, the first stage is always, admitting you are an alcoholic, and thats when you can begin to work to improve things.
Actually, it does look like the player base for SWTOR has stabilized, just look at xfire, it's at the same number of players now as it was two months ago. They said they needed 500k+ subscribers, and that is what they have.
Generic, hardley. Name a single other MMO that devoted to giving its players their own story.
This line is just hilarious, because SWTOR does the exact opposite. SWTOR makes players jump through the same loops over and over again, there's nothing unique or 'own' about them.
That's the definition of a themepark, everyone does more or less the same moves before hitting the cap.
Originally posted by Blackbrrd Actually, it does look like the player base for SWTOR has stabilized, just look at xfire, it's at the same number of players now as it was two months ago. They said they needed 500k+ subscribers, and that is what they have.
I noticed that as well. In that two month time TSW been released and already has dropped almost half its users while TERA has pretty much fallen off the radar.
SW:TOR was down for the count as a subscription based game but, like Star Trek Online, it can exist and maybe even thrive as a F2P because you will always have fanatic Star Wars or Star Trek fans who will pay alot of money on it just because of the IP.
This has been a whirl wind of a year for SW:TOR; there is no doubt about that. It started out as the second coming of Theme Park MMORPGs and now it is declared as an example as to why Theme Park MMORPGs are done for. Now I don"t have anything against Sandbox MMOs, but I do prefer the structure and nature of Theme Park games(which really is a misleading name since overal there are not many differences between a Theme Park and Sandbox game; just ask any one what constitutes as a pure Sandbox MMO and you will get an exceptionally wide variety of veiwpoints).
So, the question is; is SW:TOR over or is this just the beggining of its second coming. Now I will admit that most of this is just the hopes and wishes of a fan, but that does not devalue what i am about to say. Firstly I firmly believe SW:ToR would have been better served if it had taken a B2P model from the get go(notice i did not say F2P since i I think this game did sell well and would have continued to sell well without a sub). Now the game itself had an exceptionally solid launch one that I think many companies should emulate(from the looks of things GW2 is taking the same model with lots of Beta weekends and stress tests before launch). For the most part it also did not have an incredible amount of game breaking bugs( I am not sying it had no bugs, because it did, but instead pointing out that in comparison to most MMO launches it was considerably better).
Now the real issue was it just launched one year to soon. Many quality of life features the game needed as well as PvP and endgame content was just not there at launch, and i believe that it seriously hindered the game out of the gate. Many of those things have been addresed since launch(well except PvP which is still a mess), and the games overall performance has increased considrably since then as well. So, just less than one year later SW:TOR is going F2P, and it is a good thing. More people will be able to access the game with less restrictions; the only question is to whether they can keep their six week promise of new content and as to whether they can monetize it inj a way that does not piss off their fans but still makes them money.
It is not "f2p"...it PYG with a LFPO. If you don't do the PYG you won't get much out of the game at all. Therefore, sub players (those left) and those people that pay for the overpriced shop items will be the ones supporting this game. Yes, SWTOR may get more PLAYERS but the questions is, will they PAY enough to keep content flowing. My estimate is EA/Bioware will actually lose a lot more subscribers and will not get enough people to PYG to make it profitable.
Comments
I don't believe it is fair to call either game a bad game simply because you did not like them. Both games have solid core game mechanics and there are still people who are playing both months after launch.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
In my opinion the games suffered from similar problems. Not that my opinion is any more valid then anyone else's. I only thought it intresting to compare the two because one is sandbox and one is themepark. (Also one is considered a hit and one a miss, furthermore, Skyrim is in essence coming out as an MMO soon with TES online.)
No, it is not, your opinion is completely invalid.
Juts because you do not like the game does not make it a "bad" game, it just make it a game you do not like. 2 different things...
Unfortunately for TESO it won"t be using the one thing that I found made Skyrim great; namely its skill system and combat.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
Are you suggesting that in your opinion my opinion in invalid because you say so? Because Dude, yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.
Nothing wrong with not liking something. I've never heard of any comparisons between Skyrim and SWTOR so that was a little odd to read, but you are entitled to your opinion. I'm an explorer which is why I'm loving Skyrim. I do notice the world changing from various things you do and it is certaintly not even remotely close to the linear feel of TOR...but to each his own.
There Is Always Hope!
I was thinking of average game, average gamer.
Skyrim might average slightly over 8 weeks but if you took everyone who bought it and got the average time I am pretty sure it wouldn´t be more than 2 months anyways, 3 tops.
And of course there are exceptions anyways, heck I still play a moded version of CIV IV myself even though that type of game generally live longer than RPGs.
I still believe that in average MMO players play the same game longer than single player players (even if they in fact are the same persons).
I think Im just not average because with my work schedule, the gym and tennis I can only play maybe 1-3 hours a day, sometimes zero so even getting to level 42 in TOR took me about 5 months (before I stopped lol). I think I get more time in these forums because they don't block this at work :-)
There Is Always Hope!
Keithan that wasn't aimed at you.
In a nutshell I had simlar letdown experieces with Skyrim and SWTOR storytelling aspects. No matter what I did, it seemed to me the only real descion in the both games was Empire or Rebel. In both you will eventually finish the "class" quests and be the uber hero of the universe.
I am suggesting you to re-read my post... [mod edit]
I dissagree I think it is a fun game just lacking in endgame combat; plain and simple.
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
All you've said in this thread is that my opinion is invalid. Are you mixing this up with the other thread where you were arguing that SWTOR isn't a financial boondogle?
You seem to spend a lot of time in these forums calling me stupid and proclaiming that which is fact is actually misconception, and who's opinions are wrong and how your opinions are correct, albeit in a disjointed, antagonistic, and confusing manner.
I try not to remeber them all lol! Here are just a few:
EA responds to rumors of layoffs: "There are no lay-offs as such, we always have projects growing and morphing. At any given time there are new people coming in and others leaving. EA is growing and hiring and building teams to support the growing demand for digital games and services." and then there are layoffs http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/rumour-ea-preparing-for-500-1-000-layoffs/094475
I personally was lied to about by ship date on my SWTOR purchase through Origin. Another customer service rep was truthful.
Release date Spring 2011. Yea a lot of games get put on hold, but most companies acknowledge it and not pretend it wasn't changed.
Not losing Subscriptions by Daniel Erickson : http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/04/23/bioware-doing-anything-and-everything-to-keep-players-logging-in-to-swtor/
Hundreds of players on Ilum: http://www.askajedi.com/2011/11/08/fan-site-summit-ilum-open-world-pvp-detailed/. Ever try fighting 24 vs 24 on ilum - too much lag to be playable.
James Ohlen "multiple players fighting a single mob is not heroic"
well guess what our raids were lol.
again there are more, but I dont want to get into it in this thread. I am just defending myself. All I stated is to the topic of the OP which is why I am done with SWTOR.
Subjective truths are not necessarily lies, and yes I know that statement may make me look like a blind fanboi(which I am not).
"Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game."-Guybrush Threepwood
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me."-Hunter S. Thompson
I'm always amazed how many target the TOR forums with bashing with only 1 post...or very few. I think some of you need to learn how to say "In my opinion". The reality is that If you like WOW mechanics with a Age of conan Tortage style questing and a story that is far more interesting then either game, there is absolutely nothing wrong here. It just didn't meet the expectations of many who were hoping it was less linear, more sandboxy, and more group focused. However, its just as good as most of the MMOs that have been released in the last few years. It kept my attention much longer than Aion, Rift, Vanguard, Warhammer, or Age of Conan...and several others.
There Is Always Hope!
That's why we have PONG and DUCK HUNT at IPL each year.. wait..
a yo ho ho
truth isnt something that can be manipulated, as soon as that happens, it becomes a lie, by the very definition of the word, its why statistics have such a bad reputation, statistics takes a whole lot of 'truths' and manipulates them, or is should say, rearranges them, to give a desired value. It happens all the time, in marketing, sales, investment banking.. whatever, but its still a lie
its a bit like the recovering alcoholic thing, the first stage is always, admitting you are an alcoholic, and thats when you can begin to work to improve things.
Yet, couple commas and one punctuation later you claim how it is happening all the time...
And no, that does not make it a lie.
This line is just hilarious, because SWTOR does the exact opposite. SWTOR makes players jump through the same loops over and over again, there's nothing unique or 'own' about them.
That's the definition of a themepark, everyone does more or less the same moves before hitting the cap.
I noticed that as well. In that two month time TSW been released and already has dropped almost half its users while TERA has pretty much fallen off the radar.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
My gaming blog
I read this thread for a bit and had a serious case of deja-vu.
Can't quite put my finger on where I've seen this before...............
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
It is not "f2p"...it PYG with a LFPO. If you don't do the PYG you won't get much out of the game at all. Therefore, sub players (those left) and those people that pay for the overpriced shop items will be the ones supporting this game. Yes, SWTOR may get more PLAYERS but the questions is, will they PAY enough to keep content flowing. My estimate is EA/Bioware will actually lose a lot more subscribers and will not get enough people to PYG to make it profitable.
Let's party like it is 1863!