This post is entirely about PvE endgame. I know WvWvW is the focus for many people, but I'm only a little bit into PvP (though I think WvWvW looks pretty cool and will try it).
I've posted on these forums quite a few times in different discussions on endgame -- is it good, is it crap, are you fanbois, am I a stubborn old-school raider, etc. I've mostly been arguing the point that I felt, through my impressions in the beta weekends and through reading about the design of later levels, that the so called "endgame" would lack a motivating game mechanic to keep me and others who like traditional raiding... hooked, long-term.
I'll say for the record that I still hate it when people chant the marketing line "It's all endgame!", as I think that's only talking about the content, and is mostly what I would categorize as "blind faith", but my thoughts on the endgame have changed recently, and I would like to give you at least one hard-core raider's thoughts on why that is.
Endgame without Raids:
To give a bit of background, I am -- in "real" life -- a game designer for a large company, and a hard-core raider. I've played all of the beta weekends and stress tests. I don't know how many hours that is, but I guess it's enough to give me a very good feel for the game overall. I've played most classes and a few up to the level 20 range. I come from a background, in other games, of what I guess most people would consider hard-core raiding in organized guilds. I've played a lot of the major MMOs, and perhaps most notably a lot of raiding in AoC, WoW, and Rift. Contrary to some people who frequent these forums, I think raiding -- if you get into a good group of people -- can be a fantastic and fun experience. It's cooperative gameplay at it's finest (in my opinion) and a very social experience most of the time, if you're in a good guild.
However, I love all parts of a game. I guess in that sense I'm also like a casual player, in that I am big on exploring, seeking out shiny collectibles, crafting, grinding factions, even... gulp... fishing.
To me, two of the most important aspects of a successful MMO are having a large (mostly) seamless world to explore, that I can be immersed in and believe, and secondly a character which I can identify with and improve over time. I think GW2 has the world part covered nicely, but the character improvement -- what I will controversially call "progression" -- is more up for debate.
There have been huge debates here about whether or not there is enough character progression post-level-cap in GW2. To me, it's irrelevant whether or not there is a ton of fun content in the world to play with after hitting 80. If I can't improve or slowly work on my character over time, I KNOW my motivation in the game will dry up and I will move on. I say I know this because it's obviously happened before.
So the big questions here have been: is it enough that GW2 gives you mostly cosmetic rewards once you have hit level cap? Is karma a strong enough incentive system? Will the dungeons satisfy my need to do strong group content?
When looking at the design of GW2, I have been very afraid that the answer to all of these questsions has been no. But I have lately had a bit of a change of heart. And it all relates to my experience in Queensdale. I will try to explain why.
That Damn Queensdale
Here I need to explain the slightly strict way that I've been playing the beta events. I don't want to spoil the game for myself, so I've been mostly confining myself to the human start area, Queensdale. I have a few times ventured a little into the Asura start area, peeked at the Sylvari, and the zone south of Queensdale, whatever it's called (which looks awesome, tbh). When I started BWE3, I thought I would it would start to get boring and I feared maybe I would need to break out of there and try out one of the other areas.
But that is just the thing -- it did NOT get boring. Seriously, I've played that damn area at least 5 times through, and I am still having fun with it. I started to think: what is happening? Curse this damn game, it's messing with my stubborn old man pre-conceived notions of what endgame must be! This cannot be right.
In fact, the really annoying thing here, is that I just keep damn well having fun in the game despite my doubts. In fact, I will go so far as to say that I keep having a tiny bit of that "raid feeling" in the open world. It's only in very small doses, but it's that working together, cooperative take-down-the-boss feeling that I usually get only from raids. It's pushing a wedge in the gap of my "the endgame sucks" armor.
I think part of the reason is that I find myself spontaneously in a group of people, cooperatively working towards a goal so frequently in this zone. Sometimes it's attacking an overrun outpost, sometimes it's defending some beer kegs from invading thieves. Whatever. I'll give Anet some credit here -- they've taken grouping (and you don't need to group, which is the brilliance) to a new level, making it easy and fun.
Queensdale Multiplied
So, as many a fanboy has said, that's what you do at endgame, you run around, you do all the suff in the world, blah blah blah. I've mostly discounted this, because I KNOW from other games that it gets boring to run around and repeat content.
Or does it? Yesterday playing the stress test for a few hours, I was having a blast. As I've said, I've done it 5 bloody times. Something in my brain is pestering me... something doesnt' compute with the decision that I've already made -- that niggly decision that repeating the content sucks.
Then a long distant memory resurfaces from some other MMO I've played. I can distantly recall complaining to myself in WoW or Rift or some other game (maybe even SWTOR) that I was annoyed there was no reason to go into the zones I loved the most. Take WoW for example... I used to love a few of the forest zones on Kalimdor (however you spell it), but aside from leveling up a character, there wasn't much reason to go there. Because of that also, it was generally a ghost town except for the few people leveling up. Sometime later, they added archaeology, which kinda made people go quickly buzzing around the zone, but it didn't feel like a meaningful reason to visit.
In Rift, they do "Instant Adventures" which push people into the zones and make them feel more populated. They also do invasions, which are dynamic events to take over a whole zone. Each are alright in their own way, but IA's feel like a "mode" seperate from the rest of the world, and invasions -- though awesome at first -- become a bit formulaic over time. Mostly because all invasions, in all zones, generally follow the same pattern. This has improved over time, but not by much.
Back to GW2, I'm standing in that damned Queensdale yesterday, then I'm alt-tabbing out to a web browser and scanning over a world map which someone has labelled the zones and their level ranges. I'm starting to do the math -- that the world is currently comprised of somewhere in the 20-24 times this Queensdale place I've been hanging out. I start thinking of all of the dynamic events that I've been doing, the ones I like, the ones I pass by, and I guess more than anything else the real scale of the thing hits me. I've known for a while that it was a fairly big world, and of course I thought of all those zones having dynamic events. I had just not quite grasped exactly how many of these events there would be. Despite myself, I just can't shake the thought of the fun I've had so far, multipled by 20 or more times. And that's excluding WvWvW and the dungeons.
What is here in this game... what I've started to believe... is the backbone for something very good. I'm not sure that it's all there yet, because I haven't played it yet, and at least some of those 20 odd zones could suck horribly. But the game designer in me has started to see the potential for what this game really is and perhaps more importantly, what it could become.
If they take the basic idea of dynamic events and go with them a bit further (and maybe they do in later zones), I think the world could really come alive, and for once, I could feel like I have a REAL reason to hang out in older zones.
I can give one example of this. The DEs in Queensdale, where the centaurs take over some of the forts and you have to retake them -- unlocking the quick travel waypoint at that location, etc. I can see already if these events went further -- if they cascaded into the centaurs using those bases to organize an all out attack on one of the towns (at a larger scale than what they do now) and eventually take the town and hold it hostage, or imprison people in the dungeon below the city, etc. etc. If stuff like that starts to happen, these zones could just come alive.... rewards or no rewards.
Maybe that's already the case -- as they've described something vaguely like that in Orr at the end, but I think it could be everywhere on a more detailed scale. But then again, this is just the launch content. They will likely iterate on this stuff for years.
Is there really no gear grind?
The fanboys -- you know who you are! -- here will tell you there's no gear grind. Some people... I don't know what happened to some people, if they tried to get into guilds and were scorned, or they just sucked at games and couldn't get in with the cool kids... who knows. Maybe they just got super burned out by copycat mmo designs, which is something I can at least relate to. But some people seem pretty passionately against gear grinds.
I have no such dislike of it. Gear grinding -- or stat increasing gear tiers -- are just a device. They are a replacement for the leveling process which slowly trickles out abilities to you on the way up to cap. Gear grinding is a motivating game mechanic.
So does GW2 really lack this? This is a big one for many people, and a question that most traditional raiders would be most worried about.
After much worrying and much reading and some experience in game, I don't really buy this line. The game most certainly DOES have gear grinding, it's just capped out once you have filled all slots with a certain level of quality. Doing this appears to be a fairly substantial grind, and I don't quite see what people are saying when they say it's easy to do. The gear is aquired outside of dungeons -- for the most part -- but thanks to interesting crafting and the mystic forge, it is a combination of experimentation, luck, and some grinding elements to max your stats and get the look of the items that you want. I think it will likely take people a while to fully max themselves out, and this is a GOOD THING. This is "motivational activity #1" once people like me hit endgame.
So in short -- I believe, at least, that there is a gear grind, but as many have said... it is "wider than it is tall", meaning that you can't endlessly get more and more powerful gear, but there is a bit of a journey to achieve top stats on all items, and that journey is prolonged by a lot of sideways grinding, to get the looks that you want and experimenting with the Mystic Forge.
There is also the fact that to you really will want multiple sets of gear, if you want to play different roles in different situations -- ie. maxing healing ability gear for times when you want more healing, maxing ranged damage builds when you want to use your pew-pew setup, etc. etc. The gear allows a lot of specilization for different build setups, and that also is a GOOD THING.
The Skill Point Grind
In addition to doing a little gear grinding, as I said I like to improve my character as much as I can. Most recently in other games, I like the "Planar Attunement" system in Rift, which is a post level cap experience system giving you small stat increases over time. It's not perfect, but it's something.
GW2 offers you, at least, the ability to max out all of your abilities through skill point increases. It may be that this is already complete by the time that you hit 80 -- I'm not sure. However, once you hit level cap, experience gives skill points over time, which allow you to purchase high level crafting ingredients for the mystic forge, which in turn allows you to craft legendary items (something like 200 skills points for a weapon for example)... which is cool.
I wish there was some other way to tweak your character post-cap, but I think this is something to note at least.
Conclusion, of sorts.
Will this help anyone? Maybe not. It's subjective to my own experience of course, but as one hard-core raider, I can say that I feel much better about the longevity of the game than I used to. This is partly because I've come to see there IS, in fact, a little bit of a gear grind (which makes me happy) which will keep us busy for a while, and the real scale of the number of DEs is also giving me some hope. The social systems in the game -- that feeling of being in a cooperative group against the PvE challenges is also so strong and pervasive, that I think at least it will satisfy some of what I used to get from raids.
Most of all though, I think the potential of taking the dynamic event system and going with it -- expanding on it over time, weaving it into the world even further, is what I -- as a raider -- find the most exciting.
Will the existing reward systems be satisfying enough for most hard-core raiders? I'm not sure. I think they will to some extent, and then it will be a matter how exactly how long it takes people to hit that plateau of not being able to further 'improve" their character. For myself at least, I think that peak is higher than I first thought it might be.... and potentially much more fun along the way.
Edit----> For those commenting about the differences between gear at level 80, I point you to a very nice post on the subject via GW2Guru, where someone explained how the stats differ between the different qualities:
Well thought out and informed post. You have done your homework gelraen and I could not agree more with most of what you said. I have seen some of your end-game skepticism posts before and it is great to see you changing your perspective on things in the game. I think one of the issues people have right now with end-game is the "not knowing" and it takes a lot of digging and reddit scanning to figure some of the details out. The stat grind will still be there as you say, even if it is shorter then most people expect from a game like WoW possibly. The thing that makes the item grind in this game great is that you are not just focusing on getting "BiS" items, you are focusing on figuring out what stats YOU want as well as managing to throw together an outfit you would like to wear as well as provide enough funds to do it through crafting, trading post,ect. Not to mention the amount of transmutation stones people will have to go through to get all this stuff they want. I feel like the hard-core players will focus on the legendary items and more hard to get armor sets. The game is also a completitionist's dream.
I think with all this combined with the idea that they are probably gonna be patching in DE's on a fairly regular basis, (probably every couple of weeks, maybe days, who knows) adding new items to go for, new dungeons with a story and explore mode, new pvp maps, personal story additions, and possibly even WvW additions in content patches is pretty exciting! Oh yeah, and the track record ArenaNet has for developing expansions faster then anyone else in the industry with TONS of new content.. (enough for them to produce 2 that stood as games of their own for the original Guild Wars)
I think we have a real diamond here. Maybe, finally, possibly --the next "big thing" is going to be here in just under 2 weeks? Hopefully I don't wake up next Saturday morning only to find out it was all just a wet dream.
A lot of us are in the same boat as the OP. We were a top level (server first) raiding guild in Rift. We come from hardcore raiding backgrounds. We absolutely welcome the fact GW2 doesn't have any true raids. You can form groups with as many or as few people as you want. No more scheduling content. That's not to say there isn't plenty of large group activites in GW2 from minigames, SPvP, WvWvW, and meta events.
There is a significant gear grind in GW2 too. You have to run a dungeon in explorable mode 57 times to complete a full set with offhand and mainhand weapons to obtain your exotic armor. That's not counting the fact you might want exotic armor with other stats (through mystic forge skill point grinds), the 200 skill point + other mats grind for legendary weapons, sigils, runes, and gems you'll want to put into the gear too.
Very nice post. I'm a game designer my self too and can see eye to eye with your views on GW2 from BWE experiences. I can say from experience of all the zones i've been in they've been a funfilled time and there is literally always something going on, whether that be DE's or just random encounters with Boss's etc.
OP Don't forget there is outdoor raids in particular zones. Like that dragon fight ANet previewed earlier in they year. I think that will give capped character the incentive to travel back to lower level zones to take on these boss encounters. As far as i know they event scales depending on the amount of players.
I gotta give this OP props. He basically made a post that i would of made if i werent so embittered and jaded and inclined to hate any new mmo in development.
I honestly am now on the fence about this MMO having read that. I was worried by a lot of their comments so i see there is in fact a gear *grind* (a fact for which i am glad) but thats its not absurd. Having to spend 40 or 50 hours of PVPing for a full set, or do 50-100 dungeon runs for a full set is fine by me.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I'm not sure I understand your point about Queensdale.
You start out by saying that you need character progression to feel motivated - and then you say you had a ton of fun re-doing Queensdale.
But, aren't you forgetting that you've had character progression all the times you've played Queensdale? I mean, the thing I'm most curious about with GW2 is whether the game at level cap can continue to provide this "fun" - when you know you're not really advancing your character.
That's what I'm worried about - though I actually really like most of the game and I intend to play it for a while regardless.
No one in the world actually enjoys the "gear/progression grind" in itself. But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.
That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?
And that's just IT, even if it is sort of "repeated content" in same zone for the 5th time, it really isn't, because the "tougher" fights/bosses etc are never the "same" encounter as they would be in a pre-set raid instance
And about being in a "great" raiding guild does add somewhat to the longevity factor of raiding in generic MMO's in general, but in the long run, it's always the same encounters, that's what bores me the most with generic raiding (i've done it since forever) and im utterly excited that GW2 is taking another route entirely
I'm not sure I understand your point about Queensdale.
You start out by saying that you need character progression to feel motivated - and then you say you had a ton of fun re-doing Queensdale.
But, aren't you forgetting that you've had character progression all the times you've played Queensdale? I mean, the thing I'm most curious about with GW2 is whether the game at level cap can continue to provide this "fun" - when you know you're not really advancing your character.
That's what I'm worried about - though I actually really like most of the game and I intend to play it for a while regardless.
No one in the world actually enjoys the "gear/progression grind" in itself. But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.
That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?
You basically called any sandbox game un fun.
Is there a specific reason in prototype for taking the frm of an old man running up the side of a building and piledriving the old man's wife? no but it's fun
In GTA do I need a reason to start the most insane car chase ending in a stand off in a parking garage? nope but it's fun
in Assassin's creed I would stab guards and purposefully get the to chase me, just for the hell of it, hell most of the time I forgot to continue the main story line because the cat and mouse was to damn fun. In fact in most sanbox games, this is basically what I do, I pick a fight and try and escape. AC GTA prototype Just cause 2.
Hell skyrim half the fun is in just picking a random direction and going for no other reason then because.
But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.
That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?
People spend countless hours playing angry birds, solitaire, and other games where there is no "reason" to keep playing other than that the activity is fun for them. You are confusing your personal "basic psychology" for that of most gamers. According to this source, most MMOG players are not interested in achievement when the play an MMOG.
Most MMOG players are playing to escape reality, to enjoy a fantasy setting, and to socialize - not to "achieve" anything in a virtual realm.
I'm not sure I understand your point about Queensdale.
You start out by saying that you need character progression to feel motivated - and then you say you had a ton of fun re-doing Queensdale.
But, aren't you forgetting that you've had character progression all the times you've played Queensdale? I mean, the thing I'm most curious about with GW2 is whether the game at level cap can continue to provide this "fun" - when you know you're not really advancing your character.
That's what I'm worried about - though I actually really like most of the game and I intend to play it for a while regardless.
No one in the world actually enjoys the "gear/progression grind" in itself. But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.
That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?
You basically called any sandbox game un fun.
Is there a specific reason in prototype for taking the frm of an old man running up the side of a building and piledriving the old man's wife? no but it's fun
In GTA do I need a reason to start the most insane car chase ending in a stand off in a parking garage? nope but it's fun
in Assassin's creed I would stab guards and purposefully get the to chase me, just for the hell of it, hell most of the time I forgot to continue the main story line because the cat and mouse was to damn fun. In fact in most sanbox games, this is basically what I do, I pick a fight and try and escape. AC GTA prototype Just cause 2.
Hell skyrim half the fun is in just picking a random direction and going for no other reason then because.
GW2 is a game for people with that mind set.
No, sandboxes generally allow people to create their own fun - which is a very different thing from a themepark with set rides.
Imagine Prototype, Skyrim, GTA, JC2 and AC without the story missions - without the underpinning and the drive to continue playing. Yeah, they'd be fun for a while - but even insane car chases lose their shine pretty quickly - if there's no reason behind it.
In all those games you need a drive or overarching reason to keep playing. A lesson developers learned many, many years ago - though they're still experimenting with games like Mount and Blade. But such games typically have very extensive sandbox elements - or goals to reach, and they're generally about power progression. In Mount and Blade - you keep playing even without a story - because there's more power to be had.
That's the thing I'm talking about. I'm not talking about short-term fun - but a reason or motivation for doing fun things once you've exhausted the meat of the content.
I'm not sure I understand your point about Queensdale.
You start out by saying that you need character progression to feel motivated - and then you say you had a ton of fun re-doing Queensdale.
But, aren't you forgetting that you've had character progression all the times you've played Queensdale? I mean, the thing I'm most curious about with GW2 is whether the game at level cap can continue to provide this "fun" - when you know you're not really advancing your character.
That's what I'm worried about - though I actually really like most of the game and I intend to play it for a while regardless.
No one in the world actually enjoys the "gear/progression grind" in itself. But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.
That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?
You basically called any sandbox game un fun.
Is there a specific reason in prototype for taking the frm of an old man running up the side of a building and piledriving the old man's wife? no but it's fun
In GTA do I need a reason to start the most insane car chase ending in a stand off in a parking garage? nope but it's fun
in Assassin's creed I would stab guards and purposefully get the to chase me, just for the hell of it, hell most of the time I forgot to continue the main story line because the cat and mouse was to damn fun. In fact in most sanbox games, this is basically what I do, I pick a fight and try and escape. AC GTA prototype Just cause 2.
Hell skyrim half the fun is in just picking a random direction and going for no other reason then because.
GW2 is a game for people with that mind set.
No, sandboxes generally allow people to create their own fun - which is a very different thing from a themepark with set rides.
Imagine Prototype, Skyrim, GTA, JC2 and AC without the story missions - without the underpinning and the drive to continue playing. Yeah, they'd be fun for a while - but even insane car chases lose their shine pretty quickly - if there's no reason behind it.
In all those games you need a drive or overarching reason to keep playing. A lesson developers learned many, many years ago - though they're still experimenting with games like Mount and Blade. But such games typically have very extensive sandbox elements - or goals to reach, and they're generally about power progression. In Mount and Blade - you keep playing even without a story - because there's more power to be had.
That's the thing I'm talking about. I'm not talking about short-term fun - but a reason or motivation for doing fun things once you've exhausted the meat of the content.
and as shown in the OPs post the videos in my sig GW2 has a TON of this.. more so than almost any other MMO to date.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Originally posted by Meleagar But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.
That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?
People spend countless hours playing angry birds, solitaire, and other games where there is no "reason" to keep playing other than that the activity is fun for them. You are confusing your personal "basic psychology" for that of most gamers. According to this source, most MMOG players are not interested in achievement when the play an MMOG.
Most MMOG players are playing to escape reality, to enjoy a fantasy setting, and to socialize - not to "achieve" anything in a virtual realm.
All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.
GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.
Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.
I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:
I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.
I'm not sure I understand your point about Queensdale.
You start out by saying that you need character progression to feel motivated - and then you say you had a ton of fun re-doing Queensdale.
But, aren't you forgetting that you've had character progression all the times you've played Queensdale? I mean, the thing I'm most curious about with GW2 is whether the game at level cap can continue to provide this "fun" - when you know you're not really advancing your character.
That's what I'm worried about - though I actually really like most of the game and I intend to play it for a while regardless.
No one in the world actually enjoys the "gear/progression grind" in itself. But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.
That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?
You basically called any sandbox game un fun.
Is there a specific reason in prototype for taking the frm of an old man running up the side of a building and piledriving the old man's wife? no but it's fun
In GTA do I need a reason to start the most insane car chase ending in a stand off in a parking garage? nope but it's fun
in Assassin's creed I would stab guards and purposefully get the to chase me, just for the hell of it, hell most of the time I forgot to continue the main story line because the cat and mouse was to damn fun. In fact in most sanbox games, this is basically what I do, I pick a fight and try and escape. AC GTA prototype Just cause 2.
Hell skyrim half the fun is in just picking a random direction and going for no other reason then because.
GW2 is a game for people with that mind set.
No, sandboxes generally allow people to create their own fun - which is a very different thing from a themepark with set rides.
Imagine Prototype, Skyrim, GTA, JC2 and AC without the story missions - without the underpinning and the drive to continue playing. Yeah, they'd be fun for a while - but even insane car chases lose their shine pretty quickly - if there's no reason behind it.
In all those games you need a drive or overarching reason to keep playing. A lesson developers learned many, many years ago - though they're still experimenting with games like Mount and Blade. But such games typically have very extensive sandbox elements - or goals to reach, and they're generally about power progression. In Mount and Blade - you keep playing even without a story - because there's more power to be had.
That's the thing I'm talking about. I'm not talking about short-term fun - but a reason or motivation for doing fun things once you've exhausted the meat of the content.
and as shown in the OPs post the videos in my sig GW2 has a TON of this.. more so than almost any other MMO to date.
It's a major title, certainly, but they're not literally wizards at ArenaNet - and they have the same human limitations as any large developer will have.
As such, no matter how much content they've crammed in there - the meat of it will be exhausted within 2-3 months of reaching cap for the majority of players who're actively playing it.
All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.
GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.
Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.
I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:
I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.
why do people still put 100s of hours into skyrim or 100s of hours in LoL or 100s of hours into call of duty or diablo 3? motovation to play games can be differn't for a lot of people. What does GW2 not offer than any of those other games offer that people put 100s upon 100s of hours into and still continue to play to this day.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
What about EU3 as a game where there is no goal and you just set out to do what you want?
I've played games where I just sat by happily while watching France gobble up everyone, other times I went aggressive and just declare war on anyone who I got a casus belli on. There is no point, I don't even care if I get anywhere or where I'm going, the fun is in the going.
Should I also add that EU3 has the best longevity amongst all games I've played next go GW1. The best games are the ones without a clearly defined end-game, because then end-game is what you decide to make of it.
All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.
GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.
Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.
I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:
I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.
why do people still put 100s of hours into skyrim or 100s of hours in LoL or 100s of hours into call of duty or diablo 3? motovation to play games can be differn't for a lot of people. What does GW2 not offer than any of those other games offer that people put 100s upon 100s of hours into and still continue to play to this day.
Most of those games have power progression, which is the major motivation GW2 doesn't have.
Several of them also have a major competitive element, and I've already conceded that PvP in GW2 is a longterm option for those people who're into that.
All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.
GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.
Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.
I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:
I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.
If by level cap you mean reaching level 80 then that's wrong, getting to level 80 doesn't mean anything. The motivation is to progress your character, not vertical position but horizontal. Instead of getting better and better swords you can get a better mace, a better axe, a better rifle and a better longbow. Instead of farming the next gear set, which is progressively stronger than the previous one, you will have to get many sets instead, so you can perform in any given situation.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Originally posted by jusomdude Skimmed over it, but I'm guessing you're an exception, not the norm of hardcore raiders.
Skimmed over your post. Couldn't be bothered reading the whole thing but im guessing you're one of the few exceptions and actually had something worthwhile to add to the thread.
What about EU3 as a game where there is no goal and you just set out to do what you want?
I've played games where I just sat by happily while watching France gobble up everyone, other times I went aggressive and just declare war on anyone who I got a casus belli on. There is no point, I don't even care if I get anywhere or where I'm going, the fun is in the going.
Most people play EU3 to pursue a specific strategy - and most aim to win the game.
As long as the game can pull you in with a motivation to keep playing, then it's only natural to experiment with it.
But if you "master it" - you will start losing interest in experimenting - and the game will start to become really boring.
This goes for all games.
It's the reason people sit and stare in their major city in WoW - waiting for the next instance to pop. They've exhausted content - and there's now only the power progression left.
GW2 won't have that power progression, so people will stop playing that much sooner.
Before you talk about how much more FUN GW2 is, remember that it's also a brand new game - and back in 2004, WoW was also VERY FUN for most people just starting out.
All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.
GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.
Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.
I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:
I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.
why do people still put 100s of hours into skyrim or 100s of hours in LoL or 100s of hours into call of duty or diablo 3? motovation to play games can be differn't for a lot of people. What does GW2 not offer than any of those other games offer that people put 100s upon 100s of hours into and still continue to play to this day.
Most of those games have power progression, which is the major motivation GW2 doesn't have.
Several of them also have a major competitive element, and I've already conceded that PvP in GW2 is a longterm option for those people who're into that.
So, I'm primarily talking about PvE.
guild wars 2 HAS power progression, it has skill progression, it has cosmetic progression, it has crafting progression, has any type you could possibly be looking for so not sure where the issue is
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Awesome post OP! The amount of detail that ANet has put into GW2 is just astounding. Other MMO's have those NPCs that stand around and talk to each other but that's it. In this game, you never know when one of those convos will lead to an adventure. GW2 makes me want to venture off the beaten path and talk to all NPCs. Thank you for posting this. I know what I will be doing when I am not raiding keeps in WvW!
All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.
GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.
Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.
I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:
I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.
If by level cap you mean reaching level 80 then that's wrong, getting to level 80 doesn't mean anything. The motivation is to progress your character, not vertical position but horizontal. Instead of getting better and better swords you can get a better mace, a better axe, a better rifle and a better longbow. Instead of farming the next gear set, which is progressively stronger than the previous one, you will have to get many sets instead, so you can perform in any given situation.
I really doubt the majority will bother maxing their gear in every combination. That's a bit OCD'ish. But even if they did, the game will neither require you to have it for any kind of content - nor will it take long without a gating mechanism - which isn't there.
All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.
GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.
Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.
I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:
I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.
why do people still put 100s of hours into skyrim or 100s of hours in LoL or 100s of hours into call of duty or diablo 3? motovation to play games can be differn't for a lot of people. What does GW2 not offer than any of those other games offer that people put 100s upon 100s of hours into and still continue to play to this day.
Most of those games have power progression, which is the major motivation GW2 doesn't have.
Several of them also have a major competitive element, and I've already conceded that PvP in GW2 is a longterm option for those people who're into that.
So, I'm primarily talking about PvE.
guild wars 2 HAS power progression, it has skill progression, it has cosmetic progression, it has crafting progression, has any type you could possibly be looking for so not sure where the issue is
I'm not saying it doesn't have power progression. I'm saying it has very limited power progression AT LEVEL CAP.
What about EU3 as a game where there is no goal and you just set out to do what you want?
I've played games where I just sat by happily while watching France gobble up everyone, other times I went aggressive and just declare war on anyone who I got a casus belli on. There is no point, I don't even care if I get anywhere or where I'm going, the fun is in the going.
Most people play EU3 to pursue a specific strategy - and most aim to win the game.
As long as the game can pull you in with a motivation to keep playing, then it's only natural to experiment with it.
But if you "master it" - you will start losing interest in experimenting - and the game will start to become really boring.
This goes for all games.
It's the reason people sit and stare in their major city in WoW - waiting for the next instance to pop. They've exhausted content - and there's now only the power progression left.
GW2 won't have that power progression, so people will stop playing that much sooner.
Before you talk about how much more FUN GW2 is, remember that it's also a brand new game - and back in 2004, WoW was also VERY FUN for most people just starting out.
Win in EU3? Pray-tell! What is the "winning" condition in EU3?
guild wars 2 HAS power progression, it has skill progression, it has cosmetic progression, it has crafting progression, has any type you could possibly be looking for so not sure where the issue is
I'm not saying it doesn't have power progression. I'm saying it has very limited power progression AT LEVEL CAP.
how so? because it really isn't lmited at all you have many sets of differn't powered gear at 80, you also have runes to further customize all the gear all depending on skill setup and how you want to build your character.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Where GW2 may have less power progression at level cap (= no gear trendmill), it has more competitive progression than others.
What seems to be the best thing to do at levcap is to search for a high rank in pvp, high rank in pve (exploration mode dungeons), and when all of these has ended, just start a fresh new class (and thanks to ANet, they feel different enough not for it to be a chore).
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
Comments
Well thought out and informed post. You have done your homework gelraen and I could not agree more with most of what you said. I have seen some of your end-game skepticism posts before and it is great to see you changing your perspective on things in the game. I think one of the issues people have right now with end-game is the "not knowing" and it takes a lot of digging and reddit scanning to figure some of the details out. The stat grind will still be there as you say, even if it is shorter then most people expect from a game like WoW possibly. The thing that makes the item grind in this game great is that you are not just focusing on getting "BiS" items, you are focusing on figuring out what stats YOU want as well as managing to throw together an outfit you would like to wear as well as provide enough funds to do it through crafting, trading post,ect. Not to mention the amount of transmutation stones people will have to go through to get all this stuff they want. I feel like the hard-core players will focus on the legendary items and more hard to get armor sets. The game is also a completitionist's dream.
I think with all this combined with the idea that they are probably gonna be patching in DE's on a fairly regular basis, (probably every couple of weeks, maybe days, who knows) adding new items to go for, new dungeons with a story and explore mode, new pvp maps, personal story additions, and possibly even WvW additions in content patches is pretty exciting! Oh yeah, and the track record ArenaNet has for developing expansions faster then anyone else in the industry with TONS of new content.. (enough for them to produce 2 that stood as games of their own for the original Guild Wars)
I think we have a real diamond here. Maybe, finally, possibly --the next "big thing" is going to be here in just under 2 weeks? Hopefully I don't wake up next Saturday morning only to find out it was all just a wet dream.
A lot of us are in the same boat as the OP. We were a top level (server first) raiding guild in Rift. We come from hardcore raiding backgrounds. We absolutely welcome the fact GW2 doesn't have any true raids. You can form groups with as many or as few people as you want. No more scheduling content. That's not to say there isn't plenty of large group activites in GW2 from minigames, SPvP, WvWvW, and meta events.
There is a significant gear grind in GW2 too. You have to run a dungeon in explorable mode 57 times to complete a full set with offhand and mainhand weapons to obtain your exotic armor. That's not counting the fact you might want exotic armor with other stats (through mystic forge skill point grinds), the 200 skill point + other mats grind for legendary weapons, sigils, runes, and gems you'll want to put into the gear too.
Very nice post. I'm a game designer my self too and can see eye to eye with your views on GW2 from BWE experiences. I can say from experience of all the zones i've been in they've been a funfilled time and there is literally always something going on, whether that be DE's or just random encounters with Boss's etc.
OP Don't forget there is outdoor raids in particular zones. Like that dragon fight ANet previewed earlier in they year. I think that will give capped character the incentive to travel back to lower level zones to take on these boss encounters. As far as i know they event scales depending on the amount of players.
I gotta give this OP props. He basically made a post that i would of made if i werent so embittered and jaded and inclined to hate any new mmo in development.
I honestly am now on the fence about this MMO having read that. I was worried by a lot of their comments so i see there is in fact a gear *grind* (a fact for which i am glad) but thats its not absurd. Having to spend 40 or 50 hours of PVPing for a full set, or do 50-100 dungeon runs for a full set is fine by me.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I'm not sure I understand your point about Queensdale.
You start out by saying that you need character progression to feel motivated - and then you say you had a ton of fun re-doing Queensdale.
But, aren't you forgetting that you've had character progression all the times you've played Queensdale? I mean, the thing I'm most curious about with GW2 is whether the game at level cap can continue to provide this "fun" - when you know you're not really advancing your character.
That's what I'm worried about - though I actually really like most of the game and I intend to play it for a while regardless.
No one in the world actually enjoys the "gear/progression grind" in itself. But everyone in the world needs to feel motivation to do content - or to do anything. There has to be a good reason - and "fun" isn't actually fun unless that motivation is there. Sure, it's fun killing things and it's fun picking apples - but it's not fun for very long unless you're doing it for a REASON.
That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?
Good read!
And that's just IT, even if it is sort of "repeated content" in same zone for the 5th time, it really isn't, because the "tougher" fights/bosses etc are never the "same" encounter as they would be in a pre-set raid instance
And about being in a "great" raiding guild does add somewhat to the longevity factor of raiding in generic MMO's in general, but in the long run, it's always the same encounters, that's what bores me the most with generic raiding (i've done it since forever) and im utterly excited that GW2 is taking another route entirely
You basically called any sandbox game un fun.
Is there a specific reason in prototype for taking the frm of an old man running up the side of a building and piledriving the old man's wife? no but it's fun
In GTA do I need a reason to start the most insane car chase ending in a stand off in a parking garage? nope but it's fun
in Assassin's creed I would stab guards and purposefully get the to chase me, just for the hell of it, hell most of the time I forgot to continue the main story line because the cat and mouse was to damn fun. In fact in most sanbox games, this is basically what I do, I pick a fight and try and escape. AC GTA prototype Just cause 2.
Hell skyrim half the fun is in just picking a random direction and going for no other reason then because.
GW2 is a game for people with that mind set.
That is basic and irrefutable human psychology. No one has managed to explain to me how the content at level cap will be able to sustain long-term enjoyment. I understand that WvW can do it for those heavy into PvP - but for PvE players?
People spend countless hours playing angry birds, solitaire, and other games where there is no "reason" to keep playing other than that the activity is fun for them. You are confusing your personal "basic psychology" for that of most gamers. According to this source, most MMOG players are not interested in achievement when the play an MMOG.
Most MMOG players are playing to escape reality, to enjoy a fantasy setting, and to socialize - not to "achieve" anything in a virtual realm.
No, sandboxes generally allow people to create their own fun - which is a very different thing from a themepark with set rides.
Imagine Prototype, Skyrim, GTA, JC2 and AC without the story missions - without the underpinning and the drive to continue playing. Yeah, they'd be fun for a while - but even insane car chases lose their shine pretty quickly - if there's no reason behind it.
In all those games you need a drive or overarching reason to keep playing. A lesson developers learned many, many years ago - though they're still experimenting with games like Mount and Blade. But such games typically have very extensive sandbox elements - or goals to reach, and they're generally about power progression. In Mount and Blade - you keep playing even without a story - because there's more power to be had.
That's the thing I'm talking about. I'm not talking about short-term fun - but a reason or motivation for doing fun things once you've exhausted the meat of the content.
and as shown in the OPs post the videos in my sig GW2 has a TON of this.. more so than almost any other MMO to date.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
All the games you mention have clear goals to reach or scores to outperform. They're also played in very short stints - and then they're put down again. They're called timewasters for a reason.
GW2 is an MMO - and it's expected to provide long-term enjoyment. Please don't start talking about it being a timewaster like every piece of entertainment is a timewaster. That's not what I'm talking about.
Also, I don't need a source to understand basic human psychology - and I assume you don't either. Just think and observe - and you will find that people always do things for a reason - even if it can be hard to detect or appreciate.
I feel I have to repeat myself yet again, because it's just not getting through:
I'm talking about LONGTERM enjoyment. As in, YES, GW2 will be fun - even at level cap. But for how long? I'm saying people will tire of doing these activities relatively soon after reaching cap (I estimate the majority will notice this after 1-3 months) - if there's no underlying motivation.
It's a major title, certainly, but they're not literally wizards at ArenaNet - and they have the same human limitations as any large developer will have.
As such, no matter how much content they've crammed in there - the meat of it will be exhausted within 2-3 months of reaching cap for the majority of players who're actively playing it.
why do people still put 100s of hours into skyrim or 100s of hours in LoL or 100s of hours into call of duty or diablo 3? motovation to play games can be differn't for a lot of people. What does GW2 not offer than any of those other games offer that people put 100s upon 100s of hours into and still continue to play to this day.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
What about EU3 as a game where there is no goal and you just set out to do what you want?
I've played games where I just sat by happily while watching France gobble up everyone, other times I went aggressive and just declare war on anyone who I got a casus belli on. There is no point, I don't even care if I get anywhere or where I'm going, the fun is in the going.
Should I also add that EU3 has the best longevity amongst all games I've played next go GW1. The best games are the ones without a clearly defined end-game, because then end-game is what you decide to make of it.
Most of those games have power progression, which is the major motivation GW2 doesn't have.
Several of them also have a major competitive element, and I've already conceded that PvP in GW2 is a longterm option for those people who're into that.
So, I'm primarily talking about PvE.
If by level cap you mean reaching level 80 then that's wrong, getting to level 80 doesn't mean anything. The motivation is to progress your character, not vertical position but horizontal. Instead of getting better and better swords you can get a better mace, a better axe, a better rifle and a better longbow. Instead of farming the next gear set, which is progressively stronger than the previous one, you will have to get many sets instead, so you can perform in any given situation.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Skimmed over your post. Couldn't be bothered reading the whole thing but im guessing you're one of the few exceptions and actually had something worthwhile to add to the thread.
Most people play EU3 to pursue a specific strategy - and most aim to win the game.
As long as the game can pull you in with a motivation to keep playing, then it's only natural to experiment with it.
But if you "master it" - you will start losing interest in experimenting - and the game will start to become really boring.
This goes for all games.
It's the reason people sit and stare in their major city in WoW - waiting for the next instance to pop. They've exhausted content - and there's now only the power progression left.
GW2 won't have that power progression, so people will stop playing that much sooner.
Before you talk about how much more FUN GW2 is, remember that it's also a brand new game - and back in 2004, WoW was also VERY FUN for most people just starting out.
guild wars 2 HAS power progression, it has skill progression, it has cosmetic progression, it has crafting progression, has any type you could possibly be looking for so not sure where the issue is
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I really doubt the majority will bother maxing their gear in every combination. That's a bit OCD'ish. But even if they did, the game will neither require you to have it for any kind of content - nor will it take long without a gating mechanism - which isn't there.
So, no, I don't think I'm wrong.
I'm not saying it doesn't have power progression. I'm saying it has very limited power progression AT LEVEL CAP.
Win in EU3? Pray-tell! What is the "winning" condition in EU3?
how so? because it really isn't lmited at all you have many sets of differn't powered gear at 80, you also have runes to further customize all the gear all depending on skill setup and how you want to build your character.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Where GW2 may have less power progression at level cap (= no gear trendmill), it has more competitive progression than others.
What seems to be the best thing to do at levcap is to search for a high rank in pvp, high rank in pve (exploration mode dungeons), and when all of these has ended, just start a fresh new class (and thanks to ANet, they feel different enough not for it to be a chore).
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****