When I got through level 30 in EQ1 I felt like I had finally finished something, because it took some serious work and effort. All other mmo's that I have played since it felt like I was at level cap in far too short of time. It made it less desirable to really explore maps as the content was quickly out leveled.
I wholly believe the worst impact WoW had on MMOs was making the end-game content more appealing than the journey itself.
I think that hits on the actual problem. It's not that leveling has become too easy, it's that it has become the focus.
Not sure the relationship between endgame and leveling is as bad as it's made out here. After all, leveling was fun enough in WOW that I finished it.
Whereas it felt like in DAOC the same problem existed but in a much worse form. Instead of a fun leveling journey to a fun endgame, leveling was ultra boring and shallow. I quit during the free month without ever seeing PVP. Seems like if PVP was as good as it's touted it would've made a lot more sense to cut down on the flat PVE leading up to it (although knowing what I know now, I kinda doubt I'd have found DAOC PVP as good as any non-MMORPG PVP I've enjoyed.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I wholly believe the worst impact WoW had on MMOs was making the end-game content more appealing than the journey itself. Mind you, I played the ever-living heck out of WoW and I appreciate it's financial success/popularity, but I feel it's lasting impact left too many gamers with a lesser patience for leveling. Nowadays, it's all about the shinies you receive from the Big Bad Boss
Imagine someone took a road trip. There were mile-markers for the first 100 miles, but for the remaining 600 miles there were no markers.
Now imagine that person fixated so intensely on the mile-markers and their feeling of progress that their journey was completely ruined for the remaining 600 miles because those markers weren't there.
Meanwhile his wife enjoyed the whole trip, both the markers and the sights ("shinies") along the way.
That's the problem with implying that only leveling is "journey". The whole game is journey! Stop fixating on the mile-markers and enjoy the trip!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I wholly believe the worst impact WoW had on MMOs was making the end-game content more appealing than the journey itself.
I think that hits on the actual problem. It's not that leveling has become too easy, it's that it has become the focus.
Not sure the relationship between endgame and leveling is as bad as it's made out here. After all, leveling was fun enough in WOW that I finished it.
Whereas it felt like in DAOC the same problem existed but in a much worse form. Instead of a fun leveling journey to a fun endgame, leveling was ultra boring and shallow. I quit during the free month without ever seeing PVP. Seems like if PVP was as good as it's touted it would've made a lot more sense to cut down on the flat PVE leading up to it (although knowing what I know now, I kinda doubt I'd have found DAOC PVP as good as any non-MMORPG PVP I've enjoyed.)
That's what I am saying. You were playing a game and leveling in the process in WOW, whereas in DAoC, you were leveling to get to endgame and not actually playing the game. While people here consider WOW the root of all evil, WOW was fun to play through the levels. It wasn't an arduous grind that people felt they needed to do to get to some Promised Land at level cap. Of all the themepark-style MMOs I've played, WOW is the only one I reach max level in.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Thats if you keep the MMO genre exactly where it is without improving it or move it forward.
Its currently a problem because of the fear that once people leave the starting zones, its depopulated so grouping contents will be hard to complete, and if you are also level 20 there is currently no reason for you to be in the level 10 area.
But those things can be changed, its already being changed.
No one has contested that. He asked why someone currently feels they would need to catch up and the answer was based on the current and past state of level-based MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Another train of thought I will never understand. Why do you need to catch up? Is a players self esteem tied to their level?
Has a lot to do with the rest of the design, where their game (arguably) doesn't even start until capped.
:shrug: Just one more aspect of game design that baffles most people here, yet somehow, rakes in the gigabucks.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
That's the problem with implying that only leveling is "journey". The whole game is journey! Stop fixating on the mile-markers and enjoy the trip!
We should offer the same advice to the people who fixate on design details too, shouldn't we?
Fixation on the specific flavor of those mile-markers is ruining their journey.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by gravesworn Did it ever occur to developers that maybe the best way to get wow numbers or to dethrone wow wasnt to emulate it but go in the opposite direction but with the wow polish? I dunno. The attack of the clones should stay in the star wars lore. Not the motto of mmo developers
If you mean sandbox, I don't think any major company will risk large real money on that niche.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
First of all linear levelling system is not good thing tbh.
Secondly nowadays levelling consist of literally hundreads of simple quests (and maybe 5-10% have anything interesting in them) which is boring.
Making quests more interesting backgroundly (better story or stupidly expensive full VO) is not helping much cause those qests STILL SUCK.
Why?
1. too many of simple kill 5 wolfs or bring 5 livers
2. HAND-HOLDING = quest gps, markers on map and mini-map, highlighted items / places in-game, etc
Point nr. 2 making point number 1 even worse and pushing back players even more.
Add insanely easy mobs, that instead of being more robust and interesting are too densely packed every 2 meters and you have recipe for disaster. = people not wanting to do this content.
So yes levelling is too easy, but whole problem is multi-layered and much more complicated.
Levellling system especially in it's current form is flawed on so many levels, than I found it hard to wrote short post about it 'on-the-fly' (I could make it much shorter and better but since noone is paying me for this I won't bother).
Everyone of these thread we get someone who takes it off topic with an attack on the leveling approach. If skill based systems were the best selling progression, the market would be flooded with those games. Period.
As to quests, I believe in the 7 basic plots theory from script writing which suggests there are only 7 basic plots. Google around on that if you haven't heard of it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Problem is that now people are trained for 'end game' which in truth is probably a bad thing for attaching people to the game. I love games that focus on the endless trail of leveling that yeilds you actually benefits of doing so but its pretty much gone. People WANT an end that just happens to have stuff to do. For that, fine, make it easy. What bothers me is that even games meant for the 'journey' have begun making the journey a quite quick experience focusing on finishing it off.
I can play Ragnarok Online all day getting such small amounts of experience and working myself up and enjoy it because it IS a rewardable experience. Hitting 99 is such an amazing feeling that people seem to not really have anymore since they want instant gratification. There is no game out there that has brought me such a great feeling of bliss then RO in making it feel like the long journey was one well worth it and I could be content with, not even needing much substance now that it was done.
We should offer the same advice to the people who fixate on design details too, shouldn't we?
Fixation on the specific flavor of those mile-markers is ruining their journey.
Well I think that's true, but others don't seem to.
For example I'm fine with my trips having either mile-markers (levels) or kilometer-markers (skills) but some players fixate on one or the other even though the overall effect is the same (a way to distribute power increases and new abilities.) Which isn't the best analogy perhaps because it reminds me of how much I hate how the US doesn't use the metric system, which actually is just flat-out better designed (which isn't something I feel about levels vs. skills.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think leveling is to easy, infact every new game i have played i have been able to reach max level in the free month without even playing the game hardcore.
todays MMO gamer = if i have to kill some mobs that arnt for my quest then the game is a grind fest.
i see the bitching in every game from lazy gamers. dont blame the companies blame the people who are all over their forums complaining because they might have to " gasp " kill some mobs for exp.
todays MMO people need their hand held through out the whole game.
just take AoC for a small example. tons of people complain about there being ( lack of conetent ) in the level 50 area of the game. when it first came out you had to grind a little bit in the 50s to catch up to the next teir of quest. even to this day you see people bitch about that like it ruined the whole game for them because they didnt have their kill quest and go fetch this and that quest to help them threw the zone.
Part of this "endgame issue," so far as I'm concerned, is the rewards. The mid-level instances don't really matter anymore because the REWARDS don't really matter. Those delicious blues will be replaced by greens of a higher item level one zone from now. So the only reason to run a dungeon is for xp all the way to....you guessed it....end game. Because armor just doesn't matter until then anyway. Anything "good" you've had, whether rare or epic (I'm using WoW as an example) will be replaced with greens over and over until you get to the HIGHEST level of gear at......endgame. It leaves me feeling like the rest of the gear isn't even worth having. It's ridiculous. It's made rewards not matter and dungeons become only xp machines.
It's really taken the fun out of the journey in WoW and in other games too...for me.
after so many years of easy gaming, I think Hardcore gaming should be around the corner for an comeback.
Sure EQ2 vanguard had the whole death + exp lost the contents was semi hard, and it wasn't a huge success, but at that time, WOW was still fresh, Gaming was just starting to get easier and easier and Hand Helding was a new concept.
But now that its been done to death, Hardcore gaming should come back, I think this time around, with the advancements in technology and people challenging the mold, hopefully this time it will stay.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
A) Just bought this game, 8 years behind, won't ever catch up, I'm quitting.
Omg ezmode leveling, too fast, I'm quitting. They don't even have to jog for 40 levels!
"Every way you look at this, you lose."--P. Simon
Devs do generally vote for the new player retention direction. Many will definitely argue against.
Another train of thought I will never understand. Why do you need to catch up? Is a players self esteem tied to their level?
In the real world there are always people ahead of you in all facets of life. Does that mean you should live in a cave and never come out.
That reply makes me wonder if you've ever started playing an MMO at any time other than release. After the intiial six months, most MMOs have a massive gap between the people in the newbie area and the main player populace. It's difficult to find a group or sometimes even to level up in that deadzone.
Many devs have acknowledged this problem and have made game changes to work around it. For example, Lineage 2 offers a fasttrack option to quickly get to level 20 and help get you to Giran or whatever the populated town is (been a few years since I played). WOW realized this issue during development and pushed every player to their capital city by level 10 so they would at least be in the hub of activity. The leveling problem in WoW has not reared its ugly head because, well, with 9 million players you've got a pretty populated world. However, the population will eventually lead to a tipping point where that deadzone exits and subs will drop insanely fast if a change isn't made to counter it.
To answer you first question, yes. I started playing Eve Online 6 years after release and did great for myself. Instead of whining and complaining about everybody else I focused on improving myself.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I wholly believe the worst impact WoW had on MMOs was making the end-game content more appealing than the journey itself. Mind you, I played the ever-living heck out of WoW and I appreciate it's financial success/popularity, but I feel it's lasting impact left too many gamers with a lesser patience for leveling. Nowadays, it's all about the shinies you receive from the Big Bad Boss
Imagine someone took a road trip. There were mile-markers for the first 100 miles, but for the remaining 600 miles there were no markers.
Now imagine that person fixated so intensely on the mile-markers and their feeling of progress that their journey was completely ruined for the remaining 600 miles because those markers weren't there.
Meanwhile his wife enjoyed the whole trip, both the markers and the sights ("shinies") along the way.
That's the problem with implying that only leveling is "journey". The whole game is journey! Stop fixating on the mile-markers and enjoy the trip!
I understand what you're saying, and to me there IS so much more to the game than just the level progression. Or at least, there should be. But take games like Aion, SWToR, etc. Technically you *DO* have other options to explore before end game, but most of it is garbage like getting crafting to Super Ultra Mega Master or a PvP system that's, once again, really only enjoyed when you get "teh phat lewtz."
So while it may seem like I'm just focusing on feeling excited about going from 17 to 18, in actuality I'm saying modern MMO's are pretty much like playing in a coma until level cap (in that I can recall nothing worthwhile of the experience until I'm in the end-game content).
What has happened to MMO's in general is that the developers have been listening. The people got what they thought they wanted and now everything is the same. On these forums alone it used to be constant complaining about "grinding". Everygame the talk was about the "grind" even when it wasn't bad. Now its all uber easy... pvp has been removed, skills are streamlined... the games are easier and now no one is happy with that either.
Maybe the developers need to create a game that you open up, enter your password and it just lets you choose the coolest looking armour, the most powerful skills, and then when you enter the game it says "YOU WON TEH MMO!". So basically a graphical chat system?
More levels, or longer levels would be great... but not when you are repeating stupid instances that run the same way over and over again.
I remember back in the day when FFXI was made. It literally took you months to level to max but you know what I enjoyed every second of that. Today mmo players are not what they used to be. They want the quick fix and move on to the next them park weekend bonanza. Eveything is rush rush rush and race to the end because today some gamers out there do not know how to enjoy a real mmo.
Why does it even matters? Do all of you stop playing once you hit max level?
Well... yeah... most do. What else is there to do? Repeat the same dungeon over and over and over so that we can unlock new stuff and re-do that dungeon over again, albeit easier due to our unlocked goodies?
Why does it even matters? Do all of you stop playing once you hit max level?
Well... yeah... most do. What else is there to do? Repeat the same dungeon over and over and over so that we can unlock new stuff and re-do that dungeon over again, albeit easier due to our unlocked goodies?
So You'll kill the same monster over and over again, and do the same dungeon over and over again, just because there's a exp/level bar?
Originally posted by dave6660 Originally posted by IcewhiteDeveloper Rock or a Hard Place.Which would you rather face on the forums?A) Just bought this game, 8 years behind, won't ever catch up, I'm quitting. Omg ezmode leveling, too fast, I'm quitting. They don't even have to jog for 40 levels!"Every way you look at this, you lose."--P. SimonDevs do generally vote for the new player retention direction. Many will definitely argue against.
Another train of thought I will never understand. Why do you need to catch up? Is a players self esteem tied to their level?
In the real world there are always people ahead of you in all facets of life. Does that mean you should live in a cave and never come out.
People have adopted (and developers have catered to) the mindset that the goal of an mmorpg is to finish it.
Why does it even matters? Do all of you stop playing once you hit max level?
Essentially, yes. I mean I'm usually one to give most of the end-game content a swing, but it's almost always the same "Farm x, get lewtz" mechanic. I'll grant one thing, going through Molten Core in a 40-man raid was an incredible experience for end-game because the dungeon was well laid out and for it's time the boss fights were pretty well done. Now it's all watered down to 5-10 people who can finish the instance in about 2 days if they're having a bad streak. Then there's nothing to do but sit on your hands until the devs. make one more dungeon (to be completed in a day or two) a month later.
I don't see enjoyment in that, at all. Even The Old Republic, for however much I praised it pre-launch, became the epitome of that ideal style, and it's received mostly criticism.
Case in point: You don't read a book just to know how it ends. Every page you read should be interesting enough to make the finale worthwhile, and much is the same here. Granted, MMO's don't have a designated finale like a book or movies does, but that just makes the journey to level cap that much more important.
Despite only being 21, I hate feeling like Ripvanwinkle when I tell my new-to-MMO friends about questing in the days of EQ, Dark Age of Camelot, EQ2, and SWG. And now, the debate about MMO's going Free to Play because subscriptions end with only a month or so of content (Think ToR or Post-Lich King WoW) has got me wondering:
Perhaps the problem with MMO's today is that they're too easy to level through. When I think back on the games mentioned above, it took countless hours to reach the level cap (usually 50 or 60) because leveling was just plain slow. The areas weren't littered with fetch/kill quests that then pumped out crazy amounts of experience. They were still crucial to leveling, but you also did have to grind, explore or go through dungeons multiple times (more on dungeons later).
I wholly believe the worst impact WoW had on MMOs was making the end-game content more appealing than the journey itself. Mind you, I played the ever-living heck out of WoW and I appreciate it's financial success/popularity, but I feel it's lasting impact left too many gamers with a lesser patience for leveling. Nowadays, it's all about the shinies you receive from the Big Bad Boss
And with this lack of patience comes a lack of cooperation. Am I the only one who feels like mid-game dungeons are pretty worthless now besides a leveling sling-shot? This feeling was incredibly pronounce when I played through the most recent version of WoW, and in my time playing ToR. I could either go through the dungeon/Flashpoint, or just keep weeding through my log of kill/fetch quests. In both cases, the loot or experience was comparably the same (in that they are utterly worthless in the next area). It wasn't always like this. Dungeons used to be critical to advancing your character (unless you wanted to weed-wack Smelly Gnomes for 12 hours), and you usually had to play through them more than once.
Maybe I'm just cynical and rose-tinted glasses, but I miss the journey rather than reducing my experience to Derping in 4 end-game dungeons while everyone else whines about a lack of end-game dungeons.
I agree, say what they will, but the reason these devs made these games like this was to cater to the minority raider/dungeoneer group. They did so because they thought foolishly that they could keep up with end game demand. It's one of the reasons i like GW2 potential so much because they''ve taken that out of the way so you can enjoy the game again. There are goals they just aren't ALL at the end like it once was. Oh and one doesn't have to run a specific set of dungeons 100 times before having the right gear to go to the next dungeon 100 times before heading to the next raid 100 times. That's the other thing gone.
Comments
Short and sweet.
When I got through level 30 in EQ1 I felt like I had finally finished something, because it took some serious work and effort. All other mmo's that I have played since it felt like I was at level cap in far too short of time. It made it less desirable to really explore maps as the content was quickly out leveled.
Not sure the relationship between endgame and leveling is as bad as it's made out here. After all, leveling was fun enough in WOW that I finished it.
Whereas it felt like in DAOC the same problem existed but in a much worse form. Instead of a fun leveling journey to a fun endgame, leveling was ultra boring and shallow. I quit during the free month without ever seeing PVP. Seems like if PVP was as good as it's touted it would've made a lot more sense to cut down on the flat PVE leading up to it (although knowing what I know now, I kinda doubt I'd have found DAOC PVP as good as any non-MMORPG PVP I've enjoyed.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Imagine someone took a road trip. There were mile-markers for the first 100 miles, but for the remaining 600 miles there were no markers.
Now imagine that person fixated so intensely on the mile-markers and their feeling of progress that their journey was completely ruined for the remaining 600 miles because those markers weren't there.
Meanwhile his wife enjoyed the whole trip, both the markers and the sights ("shinies") along the way.
That's the problem with implying that only leveling is "journey". The whole game is journey! Stop fixating on the mile-markers and enjoy the trip!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That's what I am saying. You were playing a game and leveling in the process in WOW, whereas in DAoC, you were leveling to get to endgame and not actually playing the game. While people here consider WOW the root of all evil, WOW was fun to play through the levels. It wasn't an arduous grind that people felt they needed to do to get to some Promised Land at level cap. Of all the themepark-style MMOs I've played, WOW is the only one I reach max level in.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No one has contested that. He asked why someone currently feels they would need to catch up and the answer was based on the current and past state of level-based MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Has a lot to do with the rest of the design, where their game (arguably) doesn't even start until capped.
:shrug: Just one more aspect of game design that baffles most people here, yet somehow, rakes in the gigabucks.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
We should offer the same advice to the people who fixate on design details too, shouldn't we?
Fixation on the specific flavor of those mile-markers is ruining their journey.Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
If you mean sandbox, I don't think any major company will risk large real money on that niche.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Everyone of these thread we get someone who takes it off topic with an attack on the leveling approach. If skill based systems were the best selling progression, the market would be flooded with those games. Period.
As to quests, I believe in the 7 basic plots theory from script writing which suggests there are only 7 basic plots. Google around on that if you haven't heard of it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Problem is that now people are trained for 'end game' which in truth is probably a bad thing for attaching people to the game. I love games that focus on the endless trail of leveling that yeilds you actually benefits of doing so but its pretty much gone. People WANT an end that just happens to have stuff to do. For that, fine, make it easy. What bothers me is that even games meant for the 'journey' have begun making the journey a quite quick experience focusing on finishing it off.
I can play Ragnarok Online all day getting such small amounts of experience and working myself up and enjoy it because it IS a rewardable experience. Hitting 99 is such an amazing feeling that people seem to not really have anymore since they want instant gratification. There is no game out there that has brought me such a great feeling of bliss then RO in making it feel like the long journey was one well worth it and I could be content with, not even needing much substance now that it was done.
Well I think that's true, but others don't seem to.
For example I'm fine with my trips having either mile-markers (levels) or kilometer-markers (skills) but some players fixate on one or the other even though the overall effect is the same (a way to distribute power increases and new abilities.) Which isn't the best analogy perhaps because it reminds me of how much I hate how the US doesn't use the metric system, which actually is just flat-out better designed (which isn't something I feel about levels vs. skills.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think leveling is to easy, infact every new game i have played i have been able to reach max level in the free month without even playing the game hardcore.
todays MMO gamer = if i have to kill some mobs that arnt for my quest then the game is a grind fest.
i see the bitching in every game from lazy gamers. dont blame the companies blame the people who are all over their forums complaining because they might have to " gasp " kill some mobs for exp.
todays MMO people need their hand held through out the whole game.
just take AoC for a small example. tons of people complain about there being ( lack of conetent ) in the level 50 area of the game. when it first came out you had to grind a little bit in the 50s to catch up to the next teir of quest. even to this day you see people bitch about that like it ruined the whole game for them because they didnt have their kill quest and go fetch this and that quest to help them threw the zone.
Part of this "endgame issue," so far as I'm concerned, is the rewards. The mid-level instances don't really matter anymore because the REWARDS don't really matter. Those delicious blues will be replaced by greens of a higher item level one zone from now. So the only reason to run a dungeon is for xp all the way to....you guessed it....end game. Because armor just doesn't matter until then anyway. Anything "good" you've had, whether rare or epic (I'm using WoW as an example) will be replaced with greens over and over until you get to the HIGHEST level of gear at......endgame. It leaves me feeling like the rest of the gear isn't even worth having. It's ridiculous. It's made rewards not matter and dungeons become only xp machines.
It's really taken the fun out of the journey in WoW and in other games too...for me.
It makes me want to scream.....argh!
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
after so many years of easy gaming, I think Hardcore gaming should be around the corner for an comeback.
Sure EQ2 vanguard had the whole death + exp lost the contents was semi hard, and it wasn't a huge success, but at that time, WOW was still fresh, Gaming was just starting to get easier and easier and Hand Helding was a new concept.
But now that its been done to death, Hardcore gaming should come back, I think this time around, with the advancements in technology and people challenging the mold, hopefully this time it will stay.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
To answer you first question, yes. I started playing Eve Online 6 years after release and did great for myself. Instead of whining and complaining about everybody else I focused on improving myself.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I understand what you're saying, and to me there IS so much more to the game than just the level progression. Or at least, there should be. But take games like Aion, SWToR, etc. Technically you *DO* have other options to explore before end game, but most of it is garbage like getting crafting to Super Ultra Mega Master or a PvP system that's, once again, really only enjoyed when you get "teh phat lewtz."
So while it may seem like I'm just focusing on feeling excited about going from 17 to 18, in actuality I'm saying modern MMO's are pretty much like playing in a coma until level cap (in that I can recall nothing worthwhile of the experience until I'm in the end-game content).
Balance Over All
What has happened to MMO's in general is that the developers have been listening. The people got what they thought they wanted and now everything is the same. On these forums alone it used to be constant complaining about "grinding". Everygame the talk was about the "grind" even when it wasn't bad. Now its all uber easy... pvp has been removed, skills are streamlined... the games are easier and now no one is happy with that either.
Maybe the developers need to create a game that you open up, enter your password and it just lets you choose the coolest looking armour, the most powerful skills, and then when you enter the game it says "YOU WON TEH MMO!". So basically a graphical chat system?
More levels, or longer levels would be great... but not when you are repeating stupid instances that run the same way over and over again.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Why does it even matters? Do all of you stop playing once you hit max level?
Well... yeah... most do. What else is there to do? Repeat the same dungeon over and over and over so that we can unlock new stuff and re-do that dungeon over again, albeit easier due to our unlocked goodies?
So You'll kill the same monster over and over again, and do the same dungeon over and over again, just because there's a exp/level bar?
In the real world there are always people ahead of you in all facets of life. Does that mean you should live in a cave and never come out.
People have adopted (and developers have catered to) the mindset that the goal of an mmorpg is to finish it.
Essentially, yes. I mean I'm usually one to give most of the end-game content a swing, but it's almost always the same "Farm x, get lewtz" mechanic. I'll grant one thing, going through Molten Core in a 40-man raid was an incredible experience for end-game because the dungeon was well laid out and for it's time the boss fights were pretty well done. Now it's all watered down to 5-10 people who can finish the instance in about 2 days if they're having a bad streak. Then there's nothing to do but sit on your hands until the devs. make one more dungeon (to be completed in a day or two) a month later.
I don't see enjoyment in that, at all. Even The Old Republic, for however much I praised it pre-launch, became the epitome of that ideal style, and it's received mostly criticism.
Case in point: You don't read a book just to know how it ends. Every page you read should be interesting enough to make the finale worthwhile, and much is the same here. Granted, MMO's don't have a designated finale like a book or movies does, but that just makes the journey to level cap that much more important.
Balance Over All
I agree, say what they will, but the reason these devs made these games like this was to cater to the minority raider/dungeoneer group. They did so because they thought foolishly that they could keep up with end game demand. It's one of the reasons i like GW2 potential so much because they''ve taken that out of the way so you can enjoy the game again. There are goals they just aren't ALL at the end like it once was. Oh and one doesn't have to run a specific set of dungeons 100 times before having the right gear to go to the next dungeon 100 times before heading to the next raid 100 times. That's the other thing gone.