Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
General: Is Leveling Too Easy?
Valecruiz
Member UncommonPosts: 21
Despite only being 21, I hate feeling like Ripvanwinkle when I tell my new-to-MMO friends about questing in the days of EQ, Dark Age of Camelot, EQ2, and SWG. And now, the debate about MMO's going Free to Play because subscriptions end with only a month or so of content (Think ToR or Post-Lich King WoW) has got me wondering:
Perhaps the problem with MMO's today is that they're too easy to level through. When I think back on the games mentioned above, it took countless hours to reach the level cap (usually 50 or 60) because leveling was just plain slow. The areas weren't littered with fetch/kill quests that then pumped out crazy amounts of experience. They were still crucial to leveling, but you also did have to grind, explore or go through dungeons multiple times (more on dungeons later).
I wholly believe the worst impact WoW had on MMOs was making the end-game content more appealing than the journey itself. Mind you, I played the ever-living heck out of WoW and I appreciate it's financial success/popularity, but I feel it's lasting impact left too many gamers with a lesser patience for leveling. Nowadays, it's all about the shinies you receive from the Big Bad Boss
And with this lack of patience comes a lack of cooperation. Am I the only one who feels like mid-game dungeons are pretty worthless now besides a leveling sling-shot? This feeling was incredibly pronounce when I played through the most recent version of WoW, and in my time playing ToR. I could either go through the dungeon/Flashpoint, or just keep weeding through my log of kill/fetch quests. In both cases, the loot or experience was comparably the same (in that they are utterly worthless in the next area). It wasn't always like this. Dungeons used to be critical to advancing your character (unless you wanted to weed-wack Smelly Gnomes for 12 hours), and you usually had to play through them more than once.
Maybe I'm just cynical and rose-tinted glasses, but I miss the journey rather than reducing my experience to Derping in 4 end-game dungeons while everyone else whines about a lack of end-game dungeons.
Balance Over All
Comments
Exactly
I do not think an MMO should launch with an end game due to this exact problem you mentioned. As long as you have end-game people are brainwashed now and set in their ways, its just been beat into their wowbie heads that they have to get to end game. There are ways to make leveling fun and rewarding but devs now have not done their part to do so. Basically this all boils down to the garbage themepark models we have now.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Way to easy and quick.. Since playing WoW and ever game since, why bother even doing a dungeon when the rewards you recieve are obsolete the next day or two.. I prefer the way it used to be, when leveling WAS the game.. The journey was what you enjoyed, not the finish line.. When I was doing crafting in EQ1 it was worth while because as I took the time getting the mats, the items I made lasted longer then a day.. It baffles me that so many players want a game that allows you to max out in less then a month, then what?
If I was Lord of the gaming empire, I would make it so the average person would reach max level in about 2,000 playing hours.. maybe more.. lol I would also make it so that non-combat activities such as fishing, cooking, crafting etc etc are available and have a useful purpose.. I grew up that MMORPG's were just an online extention of AD&D with a semi virtual world..
The thing I am seeing now is that most mmo developers are not planning on what to do with an increase in level cap. They are using an exponential exp curve instead of a linear curve. This leads to quick progression through early levels, and extremely slow progression in later levels. To me its a failure of design as the only enjoyable levels become the originally intended cap of the game. This is excluding WoW and looking at a general picture of mmos 2~4 years out. Personally, I would like to see y=2x+200 then y=x1.2+10. Where y = exp needed and x = level.
The other thing I am beginning to hate is the level progression system in general. Most players like the level progression system because it gives them a set goal and they can see there growth. However, I think a better system would be one that gives players more options as they progress in the game rather then make them more powerful. This would make balancing new zones easier and not make starter zones ghost towns.
Just to add in too..
I want a game that takes me over a year of playing before I see "end game".. This way I can enjoy some social raiding at max level for a few months before the next expansion comes out.. And, I want to see expansions like the ones we saw with EQ's Kunark, SoV and SoL..
I think MMOs today have too quick of leveling, however, the leveling content is designed in a way that if it took too long to level, the leveling process would just be mind numbingly boring.
Take a game like Everquest, for example, with its extremely slow leveling. However, the content wasn't designed in such a way that there was a huge focus on max level only content (I'm talking the original game and the first few expansion here, I am well aware it changed later on).
There were ton of non-max level dungeons in the early years of the game that were a ton of fun - Blackburrow, Najena, Crushbone, Befallen, Paw, Cazic Thule, Upper and Lower Guk, Solusek A and B (some of these had level 50 areas, but also large portions of non level 50 content). In Kunark you had plenty of new ones like Kurn's, Dalnir, Nurga, Kaesora, Karnor's, Sebilis, and Howling Stones (again, some had areas for level 60 players, but also large areas for non level 60s). Plus, you had probably a dozen or more outdoor zones no matter what level you were that was level appropriate. Raids weren't even restricted to max level characters. You could do Hate/Fear at 46 and people were still doing these long after the level cap went past 50.
Now, look at a game like RIFT. Each level range basically has one zone and one instance to level in. If it took months to level in the game, it would be painfully boring.
I guess I'm agreeing with you while simultaneously pointing out that Everquest had more content than modern MMOs.
Speaking as an EQ veteran (played from release till fairly recently) I find the current spread of MMORPG's a joke when it comes to leveling, the last MMO I bought (and greatly regret) was SWTOR. Leveling in that was way way to easy. I played WoW for abit, and without a leveling guide was able to get to max level in about a week to 10 days, again way way to easy.
Speaking of the good old days (1999 EQ) you had to group with people and actually play (grind) through content, once you got through it you had a sense of achievement that you had done something that was quite hard.
To me and my psuedo understanding of psychology, I just put it down to the crazy entitlement culture thats begun to spring up everywhere, everyone seems to want everything and they want it now. It might just be me, but people just don't want to work for anything anymore, and for me I find that this wrecks the games that are currently being designed and released.
There is seriously nothing wrong with it taking a few months to reach end game, if MMO developers did this it would enable content to be spread in such a way as to accomodate both hard core games and casual gamers.
I doubt I'll see the likes of EQ as it was again, the times have changed and so have the people playing the games.
― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
Good observation.. I had thought of that myself a number of years ago.. As some have mention is to focus on horizontal gaming instead of vertical progression.... Especially if you wish to have any sort of PvP in the game.. Why have a game where people are going around one shotting old content or younger players.. Instead of level progression.. Why not make more of reputation progression.. What this does is do as you said.. It opens up new travel paths , zones and cities... I can see maybe having some slight variance in gear that would allow some increase in power, but not what we are accustomed to.. This way people never truely outlevel older content..
I would play that game, if there was enough content / gameplay to keep those 2,000+ hours fun.
Too easy and too fast. We need to get rid of this mindset that max level is where the game begins.
Make max level seem like a distant dream. Remember L2 during it's prime? Nobody talked about max level because most players were never going to get there.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
My ideal progression would come from GW 1's skill points. Every time you'd "level up," you'd get x amount of skill points, which would then be placed into individual skills. That way, no two healers, fire/frost/earth mages, or even warriors would need to function in the same manner. Plus, you remove balancing areas by just making the npcs have more health/armor so the player can tackle them as needed.
Thinking further, I've also realized how the quick progression has cut away at incredible roleplaying mechanics. I'm a huge fan of player housing/communities like in LOTRO, EQ2 and SWG (obviously Galaxies was much further refined). The sheer amount of hours I spent invested in roleplaying these various games alone made each monthly drop worthwhile.
Balance Over All
Leveling speed is pretty irrelevant.
Whether a game provides continually interesting challenges is what matters (possibly making things more interesting with rewards, but games fun for their own sake works too.)
It's always seemed a little odd to me, in games where the game keeps going past max level, that people seem to fixate severely on the fact that they've stopped leveling. That's why it felt smart of Trion to implement its post-max-level progression system using the same XP bar and general mechanics as leveling. Gives them the that hit of level-up they were addicted to, while holding real levels for what matters (talents+new abilities).
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I played an EQ-Necromancer and I needed 90 days (ingame playtime) to Lvl 60. Did I have fun? Not every day. But you bet, I had more days of fun in EQ than in all the games together, I played later.
I dont want all the old-school mechanics back. Some mechanics have been terrible. And there are a lot of features in modern MMOs like. But it was a big mistake from WoW and EQ2 in 2004 to abandon some of the mechanics of old-school MMOs.
Even looking to a game like GW2, which is different and looks promising, i am sure, that i cant play it for years. I will be done in a few months (which is way more than with any wow-clone). Is that the famous new business model of the devs nowadays? That i am done with their game after a few months?
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
What about this: Get rid of the leveling system and focus on content.
A leveling system is artificial progression, actual skill in combat and knowledge should matter instead of relying on this archaic system as a indicator how strong one is.
First of all linear levelling system is not good thing tbh.
Secondly nowadays levelling consist of literally hundreads of simple quests (and maybe 5-10% have anything interesting in them) which is boring.
Making quests more interesting backgroundly (better story or stupidly expensive full VO) is not helping much cause those qests STILL SUCK.
Why?
1. too many of simple kill 5 wolfs or bring 5 livers
2. HAND-HOLDING = quest gps, markers on map and mini-map, highlighted items / places in-game, etc
Point nr. 2 making point number 1 even worse and pushing back players even more.
Add insanely easy mobs, that instead of being more robust and interesting are too densely packed every 2 meters and you have recipe for disaster. = people not wanting to do this content.
So yes levelling is too easy, but whole problem is multi-layered and much more complicated.
Levellling system especially in it's current form is flawed on so many levels, than I found it hard to wrote short post about it 'on-the-fly' (I could make it much shorter and better but since noone is paying me for this I won't bother).
Developer Rock or a Hard Place.
Which would you rather face on the forums?
A) Just bought this game, 8 years behind, won't ever catch up, I'm quitting.
"Every way you look at this, you lose."--P. Simon
Devs do generally vote for the new player retention direction. Many will definitely argue against.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think its too easy, I remember ff11, the pace in that game was perfect it depended heavily on how much time you had (before abbyseaa where lving became a total effing joke) FF11 also had more content at release than most other mmo's do now a days, I know for a fact when i first started ff11 it took me more than a month to do half the content, it was a well paced game. MMO's now a days are total jokes. The problem lies in the fact that they are just too soloable, they need to make solo a viable option I understand this, but soloing should be like 5 times slower than grouping up for the same things, Pretty much every new mmo over the last few years, people have been able to hit cap and go thru most of the content in 3-4 days. Least the pay2play ones anyway. Friend who is hardly a hardcore gamer, did every mission in the secret world, and got all the skills he needed in 3 days, then pretty much quit the game after running a few dungeons, because there just isin't anything else to do.
This is the major issue mmo's today have, these devs seem to think that just quests and dungeons is enough to keep people playing/subbed, well newsflash: its not. People need other activities that are WORTH THEIR TIME to do. Raiding in wow for example is a prime example of something that is NOT worth peoples time. There is 0 use for the raid gear other than well more of the same tank and spank raiding. To this day the best endgame I have seen in a mmo has been dark age of camelot, and to a lesser extent fallen earth. In DAoC it had pve raiding, but it also had a great pvp system which offered even more advancement of your char via realm skill points. You could get enough to get a few things in the level 20-24 battle ground as well. So its not just 100% endgame. In DAoC prior to them adding the spellcrafting where you can make your own magical gear. You would raid for the stuff, then either A) go rvr with it take over keeps, kill the other factions, help your side take over keeps and castles, all the while gaining skill points for new skills, or
you could just keep going on the pve raid side if you so desired.
The problem today is mmo's only really offer one or the other for endgames, instead of offering both equally. Seperated pvp gear from pve is probally the biggest mistake you can make, because it splits the playerbase into 2. Yet all these devs seem to think its such a great idea just because blizzard did it. In fallen earth the best gear is crafted from rare mats, with said gear you can then go into some land control-like pvp with your faction. Simmlar to daoc it offers both types of endgames meshed together insted of a clear cut one or the other.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
or
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
Another train of thought I will never understand. Why do you need to catch up? Is a players self esteem tied to their level?
In the real world there are always people ahead of you in all facets of life. Does that mean you should live in a cave and never come out.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
In the real world there are always people ahead of you in all facets of life. Does that mean you should live in a cave and never come out.
Particular reasons depend on the player, but some reasons to "need" to catch up- especially in level-based games are to play with friends as well as to engage in PvP and have a chance at surviving (even worse in the gear-based games that require still more grind in order to catch up). Remember- these are social, multiplayer games.
Certainly, in the real world there will always be inequalities in certain areas however in the real world you're not arbitrarily separated from friends in the same manner as I described above; also- and this may be a shocker- a lot of people play these games to get away from the inequalities of the real world- why would they want more of the same in their games?
I think that hits on the actual problem. It's not that leveling has become too easy, it's that it has become the focus.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That reply makes me wonder if you've ever started playing an MMO at any time other than release. After the intiial six months, most MMOs have a massive gap between the people in the newbie area and the main player populace. It's difficult to find a group or sometimes even to level up in that deadzone.
Many devs have acknowledged this problem and have made game changes to work around it. For example, Lineage 2 offers a fasttrack option to quickly get to level 20 and help get you to Giran or whatever the populated town is (been a few years since I played). WOW realized this issue during development and pushed every player to their capital city by level 10 so they would at least be in the hub of activity. The leveling problem in WoW has not reared its ugly head because, well, with 9 million players you've got a pretty populated world.
However, the population will eventually lead to a tipping point where that deadzone exits and subs will drop insanely fast if a change isn't made to counter it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Thats if you keep the MMO genre exactly where it is without improving it or move it forward.
Its currently a problem because of the fear that once people leave the starting zones, its depopulated so grouping contents will be hard to complete, and if you are also level 20 there is currently no reason for you to be in the level 10 area.
But those things can be changed, its already being changed.
And when those obstacles are changed, then its no longer an obstacle for long leveling curves.
Do understand that everything that we know about MMO can be changed, MMO is an constantly evolving and changing Genre, once you settled in a definition of what defines an MMO then you will become stagnant and that what will destroy MMO in the long run.
For example: TO many MMO must have Zones to help segregate their player bases so that the first wave of players move on and goes to the next zone while the new players repopulate the starting zones.
But who said that is how MMO should be, it works now doesn't mean that its the best way, there are always other ways to do it.
Just now I thought of 1 way to change the zones of current MMO
1) Make Capital City Hubs in the starting zones and every other zones an outpost, so people will want to stay and keep the starting zones populated even if you aren't level 1
2) Make all other zones contending zones, so everyone can participate but the higher levels will be the front lines, while the lower levels can be the supply and support, so even if you can't hit anyone, you can still fire catapults and set up siege weapons or supply runs.
3) keep the GW2 deleveling mechanic and allows everyone to level up while keeping them within appropriate level ranges.
4) Make keeps that can be bought by Guilds and used as guards to avoid NPC from taking over zones. Therefore creating a new Diplomatic mechanic keeping all the different levels together.
Actually eliminate the whole Notions of Zones, and make the whole map contending except the main Capital City protected by automatic siege weapons.
So the only thing that is still similiar to zones are the Keeps that Guilds can buy once they clear it for the moment, that means that if your guilds start to decline in numbers, and not enough to defend it, it can be overrun. So the only thing protecting others and regulating the surrounding area are the Guilds that controls it. Then multiply it by hundreds and you got yourself an self growing MMO that players can overrun the keeps or let the Guilds hold on to the keeps. No more zones, just players determining their own playing styles.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.