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Reason PvP sucks in most games

PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member

1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

2. PvP specific gear

3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

 

IT'S MY OPINION:

BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

I see no reason for pvp specific gear

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Comments

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk LiverpoolPosts: 976Member Uncommon
    5. Poor class balance
  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by Palladin

    1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

    2. PvP specific gear

    3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

    4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

     

     

    Wow each of those i am sure some pvpers would say could be seen as why pvp works, and is loved by them in games. A open world pvper would see forced pvp in the world as a great feature to keep the thrill and rush of danger being everywhere alive. A pvp-oriented player in a pve-based game (like wow), would see pvp specific gear as a method of keeping them rewarded for actually pvping, and not making pvp just a way of gearing for pve thru another method. And the last two merely would be seen by some as being insentives for people to actually pvp, and such to keep them competitive in their chosen game when in the open world. That title should be changed to "Why for some pvp sucks in many other games.", since your opinion is completely your own an so long as pvp in other games are enjoyed by people in them that pvp does not suck at all in fact.

  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Posts: 1,179Member Uncommon

    6. the playerbase has become so carebear that games cater to them now, and most pvp is just 10v10 mini games.

    7. tab target heat seeking arrows and magic that allways hits has taken away skill in pvp.

    8. so much CC and stealth in games that players need it now like a crutch in pvp.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,277Member Uncommon

    Funny as a pvpr I've never played a game with bad pvp. eer wait DDO that was bad... and for none of the reasons listed above lol.

     

    I do prefer pvp w/o a pvp stat though. It brings the whole role playing experience together imo.

  • tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,208Member Uncommon

    I only like open world PVP, don't bother with any thing else because why play an MMO if you want arena or BGs? Might as well play CS or something....

    Sadly open world PVP doesn't exist any more outside Dayz really and that isn't even an MMO, though it's more like one than most MMOs these days.

  • hyllstarterhyllstarter ukiah, CAPosts: 203Member
    Open world pvp rules !!! I never understood why people liked the canned instanced pvp.

    image

  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Posts: 1,179Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Funny as a pvpr I've never played a game with bad pvp. eer wait DDO that was bad... and for none of the reasons listed above lol.

     you didnt play TOR ?

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.

    Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.

    Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.

     

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,277Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Funny as a pvpr I've never played a game with bad pvp. eer wait DDO that was bad... and for none of the reasons listed above lol.

     you didnt play TOR ?

    There wasn't enough options in pvp for ToR.

     

    Imo ToR had the best animations and resouce system. To bad Ilum never worked and Wpvp was a bismal. If Ilum worked, I think ToRs fate would have been much different.

  • tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,208Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Funny as a pvpr I've never played a game with bad pvp. eer wait DDO that was bad... and for none of the reasons listed above lol.

     you didnt play TOR ?

    The only good PVP in SWTOR was around the balloon ride on Tatooine because it felt like a proper PVP objective. If you fell off the balloon or missed it you'd have to wait for another 30 odd mins so you had to plan when you was gonna be there, time it just right or most likely you'd be ganked and miss it again.

    So fun but sadly every one cried about it and I guess it's probably been taken out now to please the whiners.

     

    That's why open PVP doesn't exist any more really because even people on PVP servers whine about it.

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tixylix
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Funny as a pvpr I've never played a game with bad pvp. eer wait DDO that was bad... and for none of the reasons listed above lol.

     you didnt play TOR ?

    The only good PVP in SWTOR was around the balloon ride on Tatooine because it felt like a proper PVP objective. If you fell off the balloon or missed it you'd have to wait for another 30 odd mins so you had to plan when you was gonna be there, time it just right or most likely you'd be ganked and miss it again.

    So fun but sadly every one cried about it and I guess it's probably been taken out now to please the whiners.

     

    That's why open PVP doesn't exist any more really because even people on PVP servers whine about it.

    Actually there was a way to get pass the balloon ride on Tatooine. Because all you had to have is someone with the pull ability like a Sage and they can pull you in without the ride.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    Well it really depends on what kind of pvp a game is pushing for, some factors have a negative impact upon one kind more than another, but:

     

    Extreme vertical progression.

    Extreme itemization.

    Tab targeting combined with limited micromanagement.

    Retarded amounts of CC.

    Poor server tech.

     

    Are certainly factors which don't help any kind of pvp.

     

    Whether a game is open world or instanced arena is not really something you can level as a negative per say as it is simply a subjective preference.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,208Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lucioon
    Originally posted by tixylix
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Funny as a pvpr I've never played a game with bad pvp. eer wait DDO that was bad... and for none of the reasons listed above lol.

     you didnt play TOR ?

    The only good PVP in SWTOR was around the balloon ride on Tatooine because it felt like a proper PVP objective. If you fell off the balloon or missed it you'd have to wait for another 30 odd mins so you had to plan when you was gonna be there, time it just right or most likely you'd be ganked and miss it again.

    So fun but sadly every one cried about it and I guess it's probably been taken out now to please the whiners.

     

    That's why open PVP doesn't exist any more really because even people on PVP servers whine about it.

    Actually there was a way to get pass the balloon ride on Tatooine. Because all you had to have is someone with the pull ability like a Sage and they can pull you in without the ride.

     

    Yeh but you always had a friend hang around there to annoy people. So many people cried about it, like stop whining, this is a PVP server and you just need to play better and beat us : If you can't then join a PVE server lol.

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member Common

    > It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

    Vanguard has no PvP.

    > PvP specific gear

    Hmm. No idea why that would cause any problems.

    > 5. Poor class balance

    I would have thought THAT is the main issue of PvP

     

     

  • tixylixtixylix gfff, TNPosts: 1,208Member Uncommon

    I don't see a problem with class balance really, people moan about it too much because they suck at the game. I remember watching Taugrim play SWTOR when people kept claiming the game was so unbalanced and he was saying it's one of the best balanced MMOs out there. He was playing these "underpowered" classes and owning everyone with them just proving it comes down to the player. It's true that some things needed changing like a skill changed here or there but it wasn't bad like people claim.

    Sick of online games really, haven't played an MMO I liked since 2005 with SWG. The whiners on the forums ruined that game too as SOE listened to them and messed the game up far before the CU or NGE.... mainly Jedi whiners really. I remember when they got rid of TEF because of everyone crying they were forced into PVP.... no just don't kill faction NPCs. So dumb that you were your faction and had to sit there and watch some one kill them after TEF was removed.

    They removed permadeath from Jedi too because people made out they kept dying from lag. You don't lose your FS slot, just lose everything you had on your Jedi and have to start again. Frigging when I lose everything on Dayz cause I die from a hacker, I don't cry about it I just get on with it carry on playing.

     

    Online games for you now though, always happens whenever something becomes popular, it gets watered down and turned to shit.

  • RohnRohn Saint Peters, MOPosts: 3,740Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Palladin

    1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

    2. PvP specific gear

    3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

    4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

     

     

     

    One of the worst PvP trends in MMO gaming is that almost all of it is canned.  Everytime developers take one of the themepark "rides" out of the gameworld, they strip the game of life and immersion.

    Want to adventure?  You'll have to go to PvE-World.  Want open world action?  Well, we really don't have that, but WvW-Land kinda simulates it, without actually being it (hurry, though, the current deathmatch ends in a couple of days).  Housing?  You'll find that in Housing-Land.

    Now, games are an amalgamation of completely separate sub-games.  Personally, I think the best games are the ones in which almost everything happens in one, unified open world.

    Same thing with character development - it's a key element of RPGs, and always has been.  The separation of sub-games is creating schizophrenic characters.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • LakytusLakytus Winnipeg, MBPosts: 59Member
    Originally posted by Palladin

    1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

    2. PvP specific gear

    3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

    4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

    5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

     

    IT'S MY OPINION:

    BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

    PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

    I see no reason for pvp specific gear

     

    None of this is in the original, and still best MMO with PVP, Dark Age of Camelot.

    -PVP was only in a separate realm vs realm area, or battlegrounds.  No PVP in quesitng areas.

    -All gear was usuable anywhere and the game was balanced around one set of possible gear.  No PVP specific stats.

    -Combat speed was not how most games are; FPS twitch speed with non stop jumping, like Quake 2.

     

    Guild Wars 2 is very similar to this.  The combat is still fast, however it seems to work well.

  • L0C0ManL0C0Man Puerto OrdazPosts: 1,065Member Uncommon

    PvP sucks in most games, IMHO, because developers are trying to fuse two completely different and in many way opposites playing styles (PvP and PvE) and forcing them to work together, and adjusting something to work in PvE might break it in PvP and the other way around.

    IMHO there are two kind of games that really got it right (and note that I'm using examples of games I know, probably other games did it first/better/whatever), one is the EVE style where the whole game is centered around the idea that the enemies are the players, and no real attempt is made on PvE balancing, and the other is the GW1/GW2 style, where PvE and PvP are completely separated, and even skills work differently when entering PvP areas, so adjusting them for PvE doesn't break PvP, and the other way around.

    What can men do against such reckless hate?

  • PalladinPalladin Atlanta, GAPosts: 426Member
    Originally posted by L0C0Man

    PvP sucks in most games, IMHO, because developers are trying to fuse two completely different and in many way opposites playing styles (PvP and PvE) and forcing them to work together, and adjusting something to work in PvE might break it in PvP and the other way around.

    IMHO there are two kind of games that really got it right, one is the EVE style where the whole game is centered around the idea that the enemies are the players, and no real attempt is made on PvE balancing, and the other is the GW1/GW2 style, where PvE and PvP are completely separated, and even skills work differently when entering PvP areas, so adjusting them for PvE doesn't break PvP, and the other way around.

    I completly disagree I think pvp and pve can exist in one game... I think GW2 has it right.

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  • LienhartLienhart Markham, ONPosts: 635Member

    Actually, you're all wrong.

    Most MMO PvP are usually

    Time invested == Skill

    That is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomes

    Effective Time Invested == Skill

    However, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.

  • L0C0ManL0C0Man Puerto OrdazPosts: 1,065Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Palladin
    Originally posted by L0C0Man

    PvP sucks in most games, IMHO, because developers are trying to fuse two completely different and in many way opposites playing styles (PvP and PvE) and forcing them to work together, and adjusting something to work in PvE might break it in PvP and the other way around.

    IMHO there are two kind of games that really got it right, one is the EVE style where the whole game is centered around the idea that the enemies are the players, and no real attempt is made on PvE balancing, and the other is the GW1/GW2 style, where PvE and PvP are completely separated, and even skills work differently when entering PvP areas, so adjusting them for PvE doesn't break PvP, and the other way around.

    I completly disagree I think pvp and pve can exist in one game... I think GW2 has it right.

    That was my point, GW2 has it right because while it does  have PvP and PvE, they're completely segregated from each other. You can't PvP on PvE areas, and while there are a couple of PvE encounters in WvW, once you enter in PvP areas is balanced towards PvP with some skills behaving differently, health (and armor and skills in sPvP) normalization and the like.

    What can men do against such reckless hate?

  • BlackbrrdBlackbrrd KongsbergPosts: 811Member
    Originally posted by Palladin

    1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

    2. PvP specific gear

    3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

    4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

    5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

     

    IT'S MY OPINION:

    BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

    PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

    I see no reason for pvp specific gear

    The Secret World has neither issue 1), 2), 3) or 4) so maybe you should try it out? :p

    Anyway, the biggest reason PvP sucks in a game is that it isn't fun in itself and people just do it for rewards. I played games like Counterstrike for years just for the fun of being the last player on a team and finishing up the opposition. ;)

  • Asuran24Asuran24 St. pual, MNPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by Palladin

    1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

    2. PvP specific gear

    3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

    4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

    5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

     

    IT'S MY OPINION:

    BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

    PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

    I see no reason for pvp specific gear

    Issue is that that you are dividing up the players by what they like, and making any rewards they gain meaningless outside of that activity. I mean why go out into the open world to pvp when all the gear you gained from bg/arenas is worthless in that area, and so they stay in their own little world. I see movement aas more of a fact that alot of gamers that came into mmo pvp now are more of the fps gamers that like fast paced games, and so if you reduce it in those games they play it would negatively effect those playing really. In a open world seting it actually can give alot of realism to the world if you can be attacked in it by people without warning, i mean in midevil times a commoner couold be attacked by highway robbers just as much as royalty, or nobility could, but there should be consiquences that haappen from it for the robbers as well.

     

    I see less of a reason for pvp/pve-only stats that have no use outside of one form of content, weither tht be pve or pvp content. Yet gear that is well for the lack of a better term  pvp or pve oriented stat-wise to have it proform differently baased on what you are parrticipating is what i would more see as a better idea. I mean why would a person doing pvp content purchase a suit or armor or a weapn that is focusedfor  use in pve content, if for many they never may not even go into pve content. So i will agree that gear which is sole built to only function in one aspect of play such as having stats that have no effect on pve or pvp content is bad, but havving gear that is actually built to help people excell in a certain area of the game, while still beign of use in others seem perfectly fine.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by Lienhart

    Actually, you're all wrong.

    Most MMO PvP are usually

    Time invested == Skill

    That is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomes

    Effective Time Invested == Skill

    However, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.

    I actually already covered that:

    "Extreme vertical progression.

    Extreme itemization."

     

     

     

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon

    I think pvp "sucking" in most games is actually very simple. Most games reward only the players who spend absurd amount of times playing the game. By giving them better gear or better buffs or better skills ect. The problem with that is that when other players that havent spend much time come to play they get destroyed. What this causes is a small layer of folks who are the ones who enjoy pvp, while the others dont.

     

    In the old days like DAOC, you could get away with this. Because the populations were tiny compared to today's and almost everyone was part of that top layer of folks who loved to spend all their time in game. And even when they weren't playing a lot they were "hardcore" so they enjoyed it for what it was. It was a community of the same sort of folks.

     

    Today, there are way more people playing MMOs. Now, MMOs need to cope with the reality that they have to change in order to be successful. They need to be able to match those tiers of players accordingly. Using match making and not giving anyone an advantage because they played more, in reality they don't need an advantage because their experience and honed skills should be enough.

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