Do some research. A WoW Dev (I wanna say it was Ghostcrawler himself) flat out admitted they had to tweak encounters to take mods like Recount, DBM, and Omen into account.
Recount made players focus on their numbers more than mechanics. They were able to eke more damage out, and made encounters easier because they could do so. So Blizz had to tweak encounters, making them require more damage and adding more complex mechanics, to compensate. The latter's not such a bad thing, but it's still developemtn cycle time spent dealing with an addon
If some math (maybe a lot for some) regarding damage output is all that is required to trivialize an encounter to the extent that a developer thought it became too easy, then I think the encounter is not properly designed.
DBM Made dealing with special mechanics trivial, because it analyzed timers and literally walked you through every step you had to perform to succeed. Blizz had to again add challenge to encounters, including changing form static timers on attacks to a cooldown system, where the boss COULD use that ability again in 30 seconds..but he might wait until 45. Again, not per se a bad change, but all of this was development time spent on an addon.
Again, if knowing the timers trivialized the content to the extent that developers felt the need to redesign the content, then the content was not properly designed to begin with.
Threat meters trivialized aggro control. Period. now dps could tell without a doubt when they were getting close to grabbing a mob Tanks knew which adds were in danger of getting lost and needed more threat focused. Treat became a joke. So blizz had to tighten the numbers on thread for each encounter to make it harder. Again, not bad...oh wait...
Again, bad mechanic. A solution would be to use probabilities.
They've been designing all that content based on the addons. What about the players that don't use them? Well, since the majority do, and Blizz designed around having them...content became so troublesome without them that most people that didn't ahve those mods felt forced to install them. The mods themselves forced the developers to build a game that required mods.
Looks like they designed it for people who they assumed to not be interested at all in using math to solve problems or memorizing numbers and then it backfired once the majority were able to know what such people already knew. Bad design, in my opinion.
Originally posted by SuperXero89 (post full of rude assumptions about someone he doesn't know at all)
GW2 caters to the demographic of players like me, who have been playing MMORPGs for two decades, and who like their games as balanced as possible and without third party crutches made by unreliable amateur developers and giving advantages to those who use them just because the game's developer didn't do his job with his UI and is lazy.
If more developers catered to my demographic, we'd have less crap games like all the failed WoW clones we got served since 2004.
This said, welcome to my block list until you learn not to make assumptions about people you don't know.
I don't have any comment regarding your post, just wanted to salute you for being "the mature one" in the conversation.
I don't really have an issue either way. When raiding in WOW I used mods regularly, when I returned to try out Cata (no raiding) I skipped using any mods, more in fear of picking up a key logger or something and not really needing them.
If GW2 doesn't have them, all good from my view, I adapt to interface at hand and use what tools are available.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I won't argue that all of those things pointed out bad encoutner mechanics. I agree. But regardless, they still involved the development team shaping the game around the mods, rather than the other way around. I'm a firm believer players should drive developers, but that doesn't mean "You design the game around this mod". Regardless of the reasons or how justified it is, that should never ever happen. And with WoW it has.
Again, I think we all agree on this much: As long as the addon doesn't change gameplay or force the dev team to build around it/waste time breaking it, I think mods are fine. Problem is I haven't seen a game that allowed mods and managed that (GW1 comes close, but those were mostly textural things anyway, not full on gameplay changers).
Originally posted by Volkmar I love how this thread's discussion is all about an handful of mods.
DPS meter, DBM, Healbots, gearscore.... they are just a tiny fraction of mods. Now I understand why they get mentioned all the time as, yes, they really heavily modified the game and even had the developer makes content keeping in mind those mods exist, but this is like speaking of cars and thinking only sport cars exists. "we cannot open our cities to cars, they would go 120 km/hour and kill our poor children! think of the children!! No cars in Cities!"
But of a modder I can surely ask. These were all created because of the needs of a few people. One of those was good with the LUA language and did a mod, easy peasy.
So I AGREE that certain mods, like Recount and DBM, change how the game is played... so cut them off! but they are just a part of the mods, not the whole of it.
If there were a way to have the mods that do not affect game play in a way that forces the developers to change how they write encounters, I'd say, "Cool". You don't get one without the other though.
Not speaking for anyone else, but if it means living without DBM, Recount, GearScore and Healbot, I can live without all the other stuff that I could get with mods. I'd much prefer it if ANet made specific things user customizable, like the AH interface or the general UI, without scripting.
Finally, people on internet forums, especially MMORPG players shouldn't use metaphors to try and make their point. I don't know if it's that we don't use them right, or if they're really meant to be used in telling stories, rather than debates. In any event, just say, "No" to metaphors.
Now, hey maybe you are right (and clearly right on the metaphor part, sorry, my bad) and it cannot be done.
But it seems relatively simple to me. All mods can do is because they are allowed to do so. Decursive is a good example of a mod that did something not intended (it would target people with a debuff on them and auto cast the correct spell to remove the debuff, all automated) and that it got broken down because it was really too much.
This tells me the Devs can change what an add on can or cannot do.
Recount would not work if the server do not return damage numbers (is that a good think though?), DBM would not work if boss encounters are more dynamic, Omen does not really work in GW2 to start with etc.
I will concede the point that, yes, allowing add ons means more dev time needed to limit what they can or cannot do.
It is debatable what you gain for that dev time though. I believe Add ons would add more than the lost dev time is a loss, but do feel free to think the other way around, I do not have any hard fact to bring to this particular discussion beside the obvious: Games with mods thrives and survives way longer than games without. Yes, this is much more valid for single player games where mods means new content, but it has value in MMOs as well.
I can tell you GHI revolutionized the RP scene in WoW for example. Did some Roleplayers NOT quit the game just because it had GHI while LOTRO/WAR/Aion/SW:TOR didn't? Probally. Or at least it was a factor in them deciding to either stick with WoW or return to WoW. Were they many? Can't say.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
The really cool thing ,at least for me ,would be a utiliy that would alow players to create their own spvp maps(think Counter Strike,Warcraft ,Quake and so forth) .This would allow more player participation in building a great e-sport enviroment.
I like mods, it allows me to optimize my gameplay. People who say they dont want damage meters do not understand that if the game doesnt have them its not gonna stop the people from using things like ACT or other 3rd party tracking.
Mods really liven and make the game more suited to the individual. I would love to see certain mods in GW2, things like damage meters, icon movers for the hotbar and ways to change the UI.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I like mods, it allows me to optimize my gameplay. People who say they dont want damage meters do not understand that if the game doesnt have them its not gonna stop the people from using things like ACT or other 3rd party tracking.
Mods really liven and make the game more suited to the individual. I would love to see certain mods in GW2, things like damage meters, icon movers for the hotbar and ways to change the UI.
Why do you need mods to "optimize" your gameplay? Shouldn't the fact that you died, or the encounter took a really long time be an indicator that you need to change strategies? And actually, most people won't use 3rd party addons unless they are allowed by the actual developers. As for damage meters, they give the wrong impression about the game. It gives the impression that "ZOMG, DPS FELL BELOW CERTAIN NUMBER! YOU SUCK!" Never mind that you are trying to rez someone, or trying to prevent that ogre that was just aggroed from actually destroying the group.
if guild wars 2 is so simple and casual why do you badasses need mods?
Cause for them, playing the UI instead of the game intself is what mmos have beenr reduced to
Or they may be two different groups of people? The modding community was for instance embraced by Skyrim.
(...)
3) I reiterate; If a game's UI is so bad that it requires mods to play, it is the job of the development team to improve the UI so that those mods are not necessary.
(...)
A point is that "require mods to play" is a matter of opinion unless you refer to the strict definition as in "needed to actually enter the game and play" in which case I doubt any mod is required.
Name me a Wow raiding guild with any degree of success that does not require damage meters. Name one.
Name one where the healers use the default UI rather than things like Healbot, Clique, or Vudho.
Name a one that prefers the in game threat meter to KTM/Omen/etc.
And I dare you to find me a single guild that raids and does not require Deadly Boss Mods of its members.
They use the tools and crutches available, because they are available. Are you trying to say there would be no successful raiding guilds in WoW if WoW had never allowed ui mods?
Dungeons in GW2 are all 5-man affairs, I think that good players will be able to play the content with out the need for any of the crap WoW guilds "need" for raids. Content aimed at larger numbers is all out in the world, there is no mob tagging and everyone that shows up fights towards the same goal. No need for e-peen meters and ui crutches there either.
Comments
I don't have any comment regarding your post, just wanted to salute you for being "the mature one" in the conversation.
I don't really have an issue either way. When raiding in WOW I used mods regularly, when I returned to try out Cata (no raiding) I skipped using any mods, more in fear of picking up a key logger or something and not really needing them.
If GW2 doesn't have them, all good from my view, I adapt to interface at hand and use what tools are available.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
234,
I won't argue that all of those things pointed out bad encoutner mechanics. I agree. But regardless, they still involved the development team shaping the game around the mods, rather than the other way around. I'm a firm believer players should drive developers, but that doesn't mean "You design the game around this mod". Regardless of the reasons or how justified it is, that should never ever happen. And with WoW it has.
Again, I think we all agree on this much: As long as the addon doesn't change gameplay or force the dev team to build around it/waste time breaking it, I think mods are fine. Problem is I haven't seen a game that allowed mods and managed that (GW1 comes close, but those were mostly textural things anyway, not full on gameplay changers).
Now, hey maybe you are right (and clearly right on the metaphor part, sorry, my bad) and it cannot be done.
But it seems relatively simple to me. All mods can do is because they are allowed to do so. Decursive is a good example of a mod that did something not intended (it would target people with a debuff on them and auto cast the correct spell to remove the debuff, all automated) and that it got broken down because it was really too much.
This tells me the Devs can change what an add on can or cannot do.
Recount would not work if the server do not return damage numbers (is that a good think though?), DBM would not work if boss encounters are more dynamic, Omen does not really work in GW2 to start with etc.
I will concede the point that, yes, allowing add ons means more dev time needed to limit what they can or cannot do.
It is debatable what you gain for that dev time though. I believe Add ons would add more than the lost dev time is a loss, but do feel free to think the other way around, I do not have any hard fact to bring to this particular discussion beside the obvious: Games with mods thrives and survives way longer than games without. Yes, this is much more valid for single player games where mods means new content, but it has value in MMOs as well.
I can tell you GHI revolutionized the RP scene in WoW for example. Did some Roleplayers NOT quit the game just because it had GHI while LOTRO/WAR/Aion/SW:TOR didn't? Probally. Or at least it was a factor in them deciding to either stick with WoW or return to WoW. Were they many? Can't say.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
funny how people cant play without mods anymore lol
The really cool thing ,at least for me ,would be a utiliy that would alow players to create their own spvp maps(think Counter Strike,Warcraft ,Quake and so forth) .This would allow more player participation in building a great e-sport enviroment.
+1
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I like mods, it allows me to optimize my gameplay. People who say they dont want damage meters do not understand that if the game doesnt have them its not gonna stop the people from using things like ACT or other 3rd party tracking.
Mods really liven and make the game more suited to the individual. I would love to see certain mods in GW2, things like damage meters, icon movers for the hotbar and ways to change the UI.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Why do you need mods to "optimize" your gameplay? Shouldn't the fact that you died, or the encounter took a really long time be an indicator that you need to change strategies? And actually, most people won't use 3rd party addons unless they are allowed by the actual developers. As for damage meters, they give the wrong impression about the game. It gives the impression that "ZOMG, DPS FELL BELOW CERTAIN NUMBER! YOU SUCK!" Never mind that you are trying to rez someone, or trying to prevent that ogre that was just aggroed from actually destroying the group.
They use the tools and crutches available, because they are available. Are you trying to say there would be no successful raiding guilds in WoW if WoW had never allowed ui mods?
Dungeons in GW2 are all 5-man affairs, I think that good players will be able to play the content with out the need for any of the crap WoW guilds "need" for raids. Content aimed at larger numbers is all out in the world, there is no mob tagging and everyone that shows up fights towards the same goal. No need for e-peen meters and ui crutches there either.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
