So you are admitting that you're a poor player who has to use deadly boss mods to make it through a WoW raid encounter?
Of course you're at a disadvantage if you don't use the add-ons, but the entire point for not using add-ons is to make the game more difficult. I'm not sure what you're complaining about. If you're failing repeatedly without said add-on, perhaps you're just not as skilled as you thought you were.
Of course, this was to be expected... if you don't think like I do, you must be just bad at the game.
Your reasonning is flawed in a competitive environment like raiding (where you are not alone, but with 25 other persons) or PvP. If you raid with 24 people using an addon and you refuse to use it, you're holding your group back. If you are just a little bit social, you can't do that, and if your raid/guild leader is any good, he won't tolerate it either, and it's normal. And in PvP, it's even worse... who wants to fight with a huge disadvantage compared to the guy who has an addon telling him everything the enemy is doing?
I can accept that you like addons, that you would like some in GW2 (not gonna happen, but I still respect your opinion), but the "don't like them? don't use them" argument is pure nonsense when it comes to addons. For addons, the motto is rather "use them, or be seriously gimped".
Tell me, would you go fight without armor? Without a weapon? Fighting without addons in an addon centric game is exactly the same.
It's a slippery slope, once you started to accept them, you can't go back, and I'm confident ANet will NEVER accept them in their game anyway, so... *shrug*
You may say not using an add-on is the same as not using a weapon or a piece of armor. I say you just suck at whatever game you're playing. If you suck without the add-on, you should use the add-on. I've done casual raiding with plenty of people who didn't use deadly boss mods, and we still succeeded. I don't understand why you think it's impossible. Maybe you just need to find a better guild, because If you're a competent player, you should still be able to get through the fights with minimal difficulty even without the program. Your guild leader probably won't even notice you don't have the program installed. Don't complain about how add-ons trivialize a game when the game is too challenging for you to complete without one. No, deadly boss mods is not an add-on you can complain about. Stop using it as a crutch for your inability to play the game.
If content designers have to alter the way they design boss mechanics, I say so what? For how long should we allow devs to rehash the same boring fight mechanics since EverQuest before we're ready for something new. At least Blizzard was forced to come up with some innovative fight mechanics to prevent DBM from trivializing the raid encounters. I think that's great.
For the PvP argument, I'll just tell you to suck it up and download a few popular mods. It shouldn't kill your gaming experience or have a negative effect on your ability to enjoy PvP. It's a small price to pay to have the freedom to virtually customize your user-interface any way you like. if game designers listened to half of you people every time they tried to introduce a new feature, not only would we have no add-ons, we'd have no solo content, no quests, no instances, no flying mounts, no battlegrounds, no instance finders. All these things that you cry about ruining MMORPGs have helped WoW become the most played MMO in US and one of the most played games in the world. Blizzard knows what the majority of gamers want. They're not concerned with the cries of internet forum die-hards. If more MMORPGs would stop catering to your demographic, we might actually have another MMORPG that is actually worth playing.
mods for cosmetic stuff are fine like the ones for the UI and stuff, but WoW also has a bunch of addons that bypass player actions for example, there is a mod that makes the mage multi clone skill trivial as it will always tell you which is the real one. there's another that tells you exactly what build and skills the enemy is using and when they will be off cooldown. There's another one that keeps recasting all your buffs whenever they are off cooldown, there's one called healbot that actually has an AI built in that prioritizes who gets healed first and by which spell on a needed basis all automatic, man should I even go on..... I know these mods and I don't even play the stupid game I merely tried it once for a while.
These are the kinds of mods that would ruin GW2, imagine a mod that always tells you which is the real mesmer ? all of a sudden that class is severely gimped because of a stupid addon. Simply put it becomes a necesity for you to have these addons, you cannot really play the game in a competitive environment without them, all mods should be optional and cosmetic, the moment they interfere with gameplay and strategy elements they should not be allowed.
WoW players may argue this to the ends of hell, but it is what it is, you want mods to modify gameplay, sorry leran to play and be competitive or stick to WoW.
I and a whole lot of people DO NOT WANT ADDON ADDICTS IN GW2 !
I admit that mods did play a *huge* part in keeping me enjoying dungeons/raids in WoW (and to an extent, pvp). You just build your own ui, with the infos you really want, that's fantastic (only talking about infos here, like lifebars, combo points, CDs, etc, ... not automations). I wish all MMOs would take that route, as it gives full power to the player to build his type of "control tower", without forcing everybody to have the same.
Plus it wouldn't harm GW2 builtin UI as it's quite a simple one (no ornaments to break, etc).
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
If you suck without the add-on, you should use the add-on.
I want you to stop and think about what you just said. No seriously, stop and think. This states pretty clearly "If you are a lousy player, rather than learn how to play well, you should just use a program to make the game easier for you." Is that really what you want?
If more MMORPGs would stop catering to your demographic, we might actually have another MMORPG that is actually worth playing.
You mean one where, as per above, I don't need to know how to play so long as a mod can hold my hand through content? Count me out.
The reason people don't want addons is it will make pvp a lot easier/less skillful. If I was able to see someones cast bar/know which clones were fake for a mesmer it would ruin a lot of the skill involved in gw2.
That being said addons that just change the color/style of things are fine, but eventually people would just release addons that would basically hold your hand and do tons of shit for you in pvp, which is why a lot of people don't want them.
I am going to jump on the no mods/add-ons bandwagon, seems like a fun place to be.
I especially do not want to see DPS meters or gearscore crap.
God forbid you switch to more supportive weapons and abilitys and you are not "pulling your weight" DPS. ?I have already started seeing the elitest BS in GW2 vids. I was watching a sPVP vid and the guy streaming the vid made a comment about how dumb the engi useing the flamethrower in PvP was. The team the commenter was on lost to the team with flamethrower engi. DPS meters and GS add-ons will add to that sort of crap and I am already tired of hearing it. While I know the "you are not good enough because you use/do not use xx spell, ability and/or weapon/gear" will happen anyways, I will not support any type of add-on/mod that will boost that sort of elitist attitude.
As for add-ons like DBM and for those that argued if you could not play without them you suck, Maybe not in Cata or Pokepanda, but I know in Wrath a good number of the encounters were nearly impossible if you did not jump when DBM said jump.
Anyways, I hope they are never ever added or even considered, it is time for the gaming community to step-up and take the training wheels off, you may get bumps and bruises but you will learn to avoid the rose bushes.
All Murlocs must die horrible, painful, bloody deaths!
Originally posted by k-damage I admit that mods did play a *huge* part in keeping me enjoying dungeons/raids in WoW (and to an extent, pvp). You just build your own ui, with the infos you really want, that's fantastic (only talking about infos here, like lifebars, combo points, CDs, etc, ... not automations). I wish all MMOs would take that route, as it gives full power to the player to build his type of "control tower", without forcing everybody to have the same.Plus it wouldn't harm GW2 builtin UI as it's quite a simple one (no ornaments to break, etc).
I think I'd be totally fine with a game that allows the user to customize their interface to the game. Little things like this can make a big difference in how enjoyable a game is to play.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
i think mods can be a great thing. the problem is far too many of them play the game for you.
you shouldn't be able to create extra warnings, or extra things from combat log information. combat log information is meant for cursory information, and review, not to tell you exactly which spell to cast.
I think though enhancing any element that was created by the developers should be allowed though. So if an icon by default, lights up when you enter combat .. you should be able to make it bigger .. or move it to another location, or change it's color ... but you shouldn't be able to add the light, if the default UI doesn't include it.
just my 2 cents .. which no one asked for. can I haz it back noaw plz?!?!
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Originally posted by Ezhae Originally posted by The_KorriganOriginally posted by SuperXero89So you are admitting that you're a poor player who has to use deadly boss mods to make it through a WoW raid encounter?Of course you're at a disadvantage if you don't use the add-ons, but the entire point for not using add-ons is to make the game more difficult. I'm not sure what you're complaining about. If you're failing repeatedly without said add-on, perhaps you're just not as skilled as you thought you were.
Of course, this was to be expected... if you don't think like I do, you must be just bad at the game.Your reasonning is flawed in a competitive environment like raiding (where you are not alone, but with 25 other persons) or PvP. If you raid with 24 people using an addon and you refuse to use it, you're holding your group back. If you are just a little bit social, you can't do that, and if your raid/guild leader is any good, he won't tolerate it either, and it's normal. And in PvP, it's even worse... who wants to fight with a huge disadvantage compared to the guy who has an addon telling him everything the enemy is doing?I can accept that you like addons, that you would like some in GW2 (not gonna happen, but I still respect your opinion), but the "don't like them? don't use them" argument is pure nonsense when it comes to addons. For addons, the motto is rather "use them, or be seriously gimped".Tell me, would you go fight without armor? Without a weapon? Fighting without addons in an addon centric game is exactly the same.It's a slippery slope, once you started to accept them, you can't go back, and I'm confident ANet will NEVER accept them in their game anyway, so... *shrug*
Just wanted to add, that WoW developers themselves admitted they had to start tuning encounters with use of mods in mind at certain point because otherwise they weren't able to provide challenge at all due to how addo-ons like DBM and threat metters trivilized certain mechanics.
Let's not even mention the idiocy that was deCurse back in early vanilla that automated the whole dispelling process...
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm against as far as mods go. Included in this list would be damage meters. If something is lacking in the game, then it needs to be in the game, not in an add-on or mod.
For instance, instead of encounters being timed down to the second with dbm and having popup indicators telling you what to do, have visual queues in the world itself so you can make a reasonable decision on what you should do next. It makes the encounters feel more dynamic, even if the sequence of events is the same. Give players rewards based on their contributions in dps, healing or whatever to encourage them to do better. Don't give them a meter to compare with everyone else.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
No mods, and there never will be. Ever. Not that I mind them, I never use them but I never felt affected by them much either. But Anet's philosophy is that you look at your UI as ~little~ as is possibly possible, so mods that focus on the UI aren't going to happen. Mods that afford sorting and stuff are already covered with the ingame UI, and once again they want people watching the battle not the UI so mods that allow you to time boss moves would be a no-go as well.
I suppose Anet's philosophy could change in the future, but it seems unlikely. In addition to their own feelings, the overall GW community is against mods as well out of fear of disadvantage in PvP.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
To answer the OP, no I don't think there will be many mods allowed. ANet seems to be taking as strict stance against them.
Personally, I really don't want them in the game. I would prefer that people at least attempt to play the game as it was intended to be played.
Additionally, in a game based primarily on skill, I can see mods/macros becoming a huge problem if allowed. One example would be modifying stealth textures so that you can see people in stealth. Another example would be a market macro to buy and sell at certain prices.
I usually go by a general rule: one macro=one key. I have no problem with rebinding a skill to a different key. I do have a problem with binding skill patters (use skills 5, 3, and then 4 when one key is pressed).
I'm not saying that my opinion is right or wrong. What I am saying is that mods being used by other people may ruin the game for me. That's not cool.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
I love how this thread's discussion is all about an handful of mods.
DPS meter, DBM, Healbots, gearscore.... they are just a tiny fraction of mods. Now I understand why they get mentioned all the time as, yes, they really heavily modified the game and even had the developer makes content keeping in mind those mods exist, but this is like speaking of cars and thinking only sport cars exists. "we cannot open our cities to cars, they would go 120 km/hour and kill our poor children! think of the children!! No cars in Cities!"
Well, I just opened my Curse client and there are 5138 mods. Curse does not even carry all of them, so there are actually much more out there. These are just mods currently updated as well.
Forget Gearscore! Forget DBM! Let's ArenaNet limits them! I do not care!
But Think Auctionator! GHI! Atlas Loot! Mini map mods! Gathermate! Pawn! Flagrsp! TotalRP! ImmersionRP! MOGIT! Opie! Quest completist (DE completist?)! I would say Bartender, but clearly Anet wants to keep the bar UI as it is, fine, no bar add ons then.
These are all the MODS I currently have on WoW that do not affect gameplay AT ALL. Auctionator is for Auction house, it permits me to search for items in a smart way, see prices, compile shopping lists and much more.
GHI, aka GryphonHeart Items is maybe the most genius mod ever made in WoW. Permits you to create custom items only people with GHI can see and trade. such items don't do anything mechanical, but can grant Buffs with your own graphic, can contain your own text etc. Great for making all sort of props for roleplaying.
Atlas loot permits you to check the various loot you can get from all the various dungeons in the game. Also show you various collections of armor sets available here and there, so you can check what you would want to get from X or Y and plan accordingly.
GatherMate just add a resource node to your map when you find it, so you can open your map and plan where to go to gather your copper.
Pawn permits you to check items through your own criteria. You assign values to various stats on the item and then Pawn automatically tells you that this item is 100 points for you, while the one you have is 90 points, so you want it. Useful when loot drop and you are unsure if it is better or not than what you have. (like you can give X points to 1 point of Stamina on the item, Y points to 1 point of Strength, Dodge is valued W, Parry Z and so on)
FlagRSP, ImmersionRP and TotalRP are all RP tools to add descriptions to your character, add mood states to your character, etc.
Mogit is a armor/mount/pet showcase. you can search for armor pieces and see it on your current character either alone (so bypassing the pesky tabard that hide chest pieces of armor) or in combination with what you want. You can also check pets and mounts to create the full package of how your character will look like.
Opie permits you to make wheels of icons you open with a key. So you can like have all your crafting skills available on a key instead of taking important space on your bars.
Quest Completist just list all quests in a certain zone and shows you which ones you have done and which one you haven't. Also show you on the map the location of all quest givers.
Bartender4 is a classical bar repositioning and customization program. (As said, Anet does not want this, so ok, limit this away).
You will notice MANY of these ARE pretty optional. I mean you do not need Auctionator at all unless you play the AH a bit. Mogit is useful only if you care about coordinating how you look like. Pawn is just convenience, Etc. I would not ask the Arenanet developers to implement all this stuff as they are used only by a fraction of the player base, why would they use precious man hours for this?
But of a modder I can surely ask. These were all created because of the needs of a few people. One of those was good with the LUA language and did a mod, easy peasy.
So I AGREE that certain mods, like Recount and DBM, change how the game is played... so cut them off! but they are just a part of the mods, not the whole of it.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Creating custom items? As long as they have no impact on the actual game, like, only displaying a description the player set himself, or consuming "custom" food that does not apply a buff (like the regular food), that might be okay.
Stuff like Atlas or Pawn is okay, too, but changing the auction house would make playing it easier and therefore have a huge impact on prices for everyone.
As the crafting skills are not skills you carry with you on your bar, but you go to a workbench etc. and use it, a mod like Opie would be uselss.
90% of the mods mentioned are either useless in GW 2, or would have a huge impact on the game. Changing the design of the UI (color, textures, adding ornaments) is fine, something like TexMod is too, as long as it doesn't break stuff like stealth, which as someone mentioned shouldn't be client sided anyways.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
Originally posted by SuperXero89 (post full of rude assumptions about someone he doesn't know at all)
GW2 caters to the demographic of players like me, who have been playing MMORPGs for two decades, and who like their games as balanced as possible and without third party crutches made by unreliable amateur developers and giving advantages to those who use them just because the game's developer didn't do his job with his UI and is lazy.
If more developers catered to my demographic, we'd have less crap games like all the failed WoW clones we got served since 2004.
This said, welcome to my block list until you learn not to make assumptions about people you don't know.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Someone mentioned LUA. Thanks to LUA, we had a uber fishing bot in Wow. I still think no one got banned using it. Don't get me wrong, I'm against boting/cheating, but it was part of the game, like every mod/addon out there. Everyone could make gold and pay game time with ingame gold, why I should be the only one honest player paying with real money?
Well I sure hope so... Still there are always people out there that can do it better, and if not better different which is intern better to some. The modding community brings a lot to a game and it's community. The more smart people the better imo.
Still there are allways people out there that use it to cheet.
The UI has everything you will ever need, and if its not there, persuade Arenanet to add it.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by Volkmar I love how this thread's discussion is all about an handful of mods.DPS meter, DBM, Healbots, gearscore.... they are just a tiny fraction of mods. Now I understand why they get mentioned all the time as, yes, they really heavily modified the game and even had the developer makes content keeping in mind those mods exist, but this is like speaking of cars and thinking only sport cars exists. "we cannot open our cities to cars, they would go 120 km/hour and kill our poor children! think of the children!! No cars in Cities!"<snip - bunch of cool mods>But of a modder I can surely ask. These were all created because of the needs of a few people. One of those was good with the LUA language and did a mod, easy peasy.So I AGREE that certain mods, like Recount and DBM, change how the game is played... so cut them off! but they are just a part of the mods, not the whole of it.
If there were a way to have the mods that do not affect game play in a way that forces the developers to change how they write encounters, I'd say, "Cool". You don't get one without the other though.
Not speaking for anyone else, but if it means living without DBM, Recount, GearScore and Healbot, I can live without all the other stuff that I could get with mods. I'd much prefer it if ANet made specific things user customizable, like the AH interface or the general UI, without scripting.
Finally, people on internet forums, especially MMORPG players shouldn't use metaphors to try and make their point. I don't know if it's that we don't use them right, or if they're really meant to be used in telling stories, rather than debates. In any event, just say, "No" to metaphors.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Here's the thing. I have seen no game that allows for third party addons/mods that go beyond simple texture changes that has NOT had to allow mods than effect gameplay.
If they can put in something like Atlasloot without DBM? Whatever, doesn't bother me any.
All I want is to make sure we don't have a situation like WoW where the developers have had to alter gameplay mechanics because of mods.
Here's the thing. I have seen no game that allows for third party addons/mods that go beyond simple texture changes that has NOT had to allow mods than effect gameplay.
If they can put in something like Atlasloot without DBM? Whatever, doesn't bother me any.
All I want is to make sure we don't have a situation like WoW where the developers have had to alter gameplay mechanics because of mods.
Simple solution is to break mods that change the game beyond the intended design.
Here's the thing. I have seen no game that allows for third party addons/mods that go beyond simple texture changes that has NOT had to allow mods than effect gameplay.
If they can put in something like Atlasloot without DBM? Whatever, doesn't bother me any.
All I want is to make sure we don't have a situation like WoW where the developers have had to alter gameplay mechanics because of mods.
Simple solution is to break mods that change the game beyond the intended design.
The problem with this is you spend time and effeort in a never-ending escalating war or wills between the development team and modders. The modders find a new way to circumvent game mechanics, the devs find a way to shut that mod down without affecting others. The modders find a new way. It repeats.
The simpler solution is just not have any at all. Sucks for those that want them, but I'd rather dev time be spent making my game better, not trying to maintain game balance every time a mod screws something up.
Here's the thing. I have seen no game that allows for third party addons/mods that go beyond simple texture changes that has NOT had to allow mods than effect gameplay.
If they can put in something like Atlasloot without DBM? Whatever, doesn't bother me any.
All I want is to make sure we don't have a situation like WoW where the developers have had to alter gameplay mechanics because of mods.
Simple solution is to break mods that change the game beyond the intended design.
The problem with this is you spend time and effeort in a never-ending escalating war or wills between the development team and modders. The modders find a new way to circumvent game mechanics, the devs find a way to shut that mod down without affecting others. The modders find a new way. It repeats.
The simpler solution is just not have any at all. Sucks for those that want them, but I'd rather dev time be spent making my game better, not trying to maintain game balance every time a mod screws something up.
You talking in extremes. 99% (the vast majority) of mods do not alter game play.
The problem with this is you spend time and effeort in a never-ending escalating war or wills between the development team and modders. The modders find a new way to circumvent game mechanics, the devs find a way to shut that mod down without affecting others. The modders find a new way. It repeats.
The simpler solution is just not have any at all. Sucks for those that want them, but I'd rather dev time be spent making my game better, not trying to maintain game balance every time a mod screws something up.
You talking in extremes. 99% (the vast majority) of mods do not alter game play.
I may call BS on that number, but it doesn't actually matter.
Let's just say in WoW that recount was the only gameplay-affecting mod ever. The one and only. Since that mod has become commonplace, EVERY raid developed since has had to take it into account.
Or let's make the example of Gearscore. Since that came into place, Blizz had to A) develop their own version, spend time repeatedly breaking the original (the modder than made it kept working around their breaks), and C) redesign their entire dungeon finder system to restrict players based on their gear level. How much of that time could have been spent adding content, fixing other bugs, balancing combat, or any number of other things?
The problem with this is you spend time and effeort in a never-ending escalating war or wills between the development team and modders. The modders find a new way to circumvent game mechanics, the devs find a way to shut that mod down without affecting others. The modders find a new way. It repeats.
The simpler solution is just not have any at all. Sucks for those that want them, but I'd rather dev time be spent making my game better, not trying to maintain game balance every time a mod screws something up.
You talking in extremes. 99% (the vast majority) of mods do not alter game play.
I may call BS on that number, but it doesn't actually matter.
Let's just say in WoW that recount was the only gameplay-affecting mod ever. The one and only. Since that mod has become commonplace, EVERY raid developed since has had to take it into account.
Or let's make the example of Gearscore. Since that came into place, Blizz had to A) develop their own version, spend time repeatedly brekaing the original (the modder than made it kept working around their breaks), and C) redesign their entire dungeon finder system to retrict players based on their gear level. How much of that time could have been spent adding content, fixing other bugs, balancing combat, or any number of other things?
I can call BS on raids being desined around recount... Raids are designed around dmg, mitigation, and healing. Recount records those things...
Gearscore? That should have been broken alnog time ago and never been allowed into the game. Yes WoW did simplify all stats to a gearscore number. No one wants this.
Again gearscore is one of the most extreme addons ever made, along with healbot, that one that allowed people to draw pictures on the screen and DBM.
I can call BS on raids being desined around recount... Raids are designed around dmg, mitigation, and healing. Recount records those things...
Do some research. A WoW Dev (I wanna say it was Ghostcrawler himself) flat out admitted they had to tweak encounters to take mods like Recount, DBM, and Omen into account.
Recount made players focus on their numbers more than mechanics. They were able to eke more damage out, and made encounters easier because they could do so. So Blizz had to tweak encounters, making them require more damage and adding more complex mechanics, to compensate. The latter's not such a bad thing, but it's still developemtn cycle time spent dealing with an addon.
DBM Made dealing with special mechanics trivial, because it analyzed timers and literally walked you through every step you had to perform to succeed. Blizz had to again add challenge to encounters, including changing form static timers on attacks to a cooldown system, where the boss COULD use that ability again in 30 seconds..but he might wait until 45. Again, not per se a bad change, but all of this was development time spent on an addon.
Threat meters trivialized aggro control. Period. now dps could tell without a doubt when they were getting close to grabbing a mob Tanks knew which adds were in danger of getting lost and needed more threat focused. Treat became a joke. So blizz had to tighten the numbers on thread for each encounter to make it harder. Again, not bad...oh wait...
They've been designing all that content based on the addons. What about the players that don't use them? Well, since the majority do, and Blizz designed around having them...content became so troublesome without them that most people that didn't ahve those mods felt forced to install them. The mods themselves forced the developers to build a game that required mods.
Comments
You may say not using an add-on is the same as not using a weapon or a piece of armor. I say you just suck at whatever game you're playing. If you suck without the add-on, you should use the add-on. I've done casual raiding with plenty of people who didn't use deadly boss mods, and we still succeeded. I don't understand why you think it's impossible. Maybe you just need to find a better guild, because If you're a competent player, you should still be able to get through the fights with minimal difficulty even without the program. Your guild leader probably won't even notice you don't have the program installed. Don't complain about how add-ons trivialize a game when the game is too challenging for you to complete without one. No, deadly boss mods is not an add-on you can complain about. Stop using it as a crutch for your inability to play the game.
If content designers have to alter the way they design boss mechanics, I say so what? For how long should we allow devs to rehash the same boring fight mechanics since EverQuest before we're ready for something new. At least Blizzard was forced to come up with some innovative fight mechanics to prevent DBM from trivializing the raid encounters. I think that's great.
For the PvP argument, I'll just tell you to suck it up and download a few popular mods. It shouldn't kill your gaming experience or have a negative effect on your ability to enjoy PvP. It's a small price to pay to have the freedom to virtually customize your user-interface any way you like. if game designers listened to half of you people every time they tried to introduce a new feature, not only would we have no add-ons, we'd have no solo content, no quests, no instances, no flying mounts, no battlegrounds, no instance finders. All these things that you cry about ruining MMORPGs have helped WoW become the most played MMO in US and one of the most played games in the world. Blizzard knows what the majority of gamers want. They're not concerned with the cries of internet forum die-hards. If more MMORPGs would stop catering to your demographic, we might actually have another MMORPG that is actually worth playing.
mods for cosmetic stuff are fine like the ones for the UI and stuff, but WoW also has a bunch of addons that bypass player actions for example, there is a mod that makes the mage multi clone skill trivial as it will always tell you which is the real one. there's another that tells you exactly what build and skills the enemy is using and when they will be off cooldown. There's another one that keeps recasting all your buffs whenever they are off cooldown, there's one called healbot that actually has an AI built in that prioritizes who gets healed first and by which spell on a needed basis all automatic, man should I even go on..... I know these mods and I don't even play the stupid game I merely tried it once for a while.
These are the kinds of mods that would ruin GW2, imagine a mod that always tells you which is the real mesmer ? all of a sudden that class is severely gimped because of a stupid addon. Simply put it becomes a necesity for you to have these addons, you cannot really play the game in a competitive environment without them, all mods should be optional and cosmetic, the moment they interfere with gameplay and strategy elements they should not be allowed.
WoW players may argue this to the ends of hell, but it is what it is, you want mods to modify gameplay, sorry leran to play and be competitive or stick to WoW.
I and a whole lot of people DO NOT WANT ADDON ADDICTS IN GW2 !
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@Taugrim explains why the fanbois don't get it
I admit that mods did play a *huge* part in keeping me enjoying dungeons/raids in WoW (and to an extent, pvp). You just build your own ui, with the infos you really want, that's fantastic (only talking about infos here, like lifebars, combo points, CDs, etc, ... not automations). I wish all MMOs would take that route, as it gives full power to the player to build his type of "control tower", without forcing everybody to have the same.
Plus it wouldn't harm GW2 builtin UI as it's quite a simple one (no ornaments to break, etc).
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
The reason people don't want addons is it will make pvp a lot easier/less skillful. If I was able to see someones cast bar/know which clones were fake for a mesmer it would ruin a lot of the skill involved in gw2.
That being said addons that just change the color/style of things are fine, but eventually people would just release addons that would basically hold your hand and do tons of shit for you in pvp, which is why a lot of people don't want them.
I am going to jump on the no mods/add-ons bandwagon, seems like a fun place to be.
I especially do not want to see DPS meters or gearscore crap.
God forbid you switch to more supportive weapons and abilitys and you are not "pulling your weight" DPS. ?I have already started seeing the elitest BS in GW2 vids. I was watching a sPVP vid and the guy streaming the vid made a comment about how dumb the engi useing the flamethrower in PvP was. The team the commenter was on lost to the team with flamethrower engi. DPS meters and GS add-ons will add to that sort of crap and I am already tired of hearing it. While I know the "you are not good enough because you use/do not use xx spell, ability and/or weapon/gear" will happen anyways, I will not support any type of add-on/mod that will boost that sort of elitist attitude.
As for add-ons like DBM and for those that argued if you could not play without them you suck, Maybe not in Cata or Pokepanda, but I know in Wrath a good number of the encounters were nearly impossible if you did not jump when DBM said jump.
Anyways, I hope they are never ever added or even considered, it is time for the gaming community to step-up and take the training wheels off, you may get bumps and bruises but you will learn to avoid the rose bushes.
All Murlocs must die horrible, painful, bloody deaths!
I think I'd be totally fine with a game that allows the user to customize their interface to the game. Little things like this can make a big difference in how enjoyable a game is to play.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
im pretty torn on the mods issue.
i think mods can be a great thing. the problem is far too many of them play the game for you.
you shouldn't be able to create extra warnings, or extra things from combat log information. combat log information is meant for cursory information, and review, not to tell you exactly which spell to cast.
I think though enhancing any element that was created by the developers should be allowed though. So if an icon by default, lights up when you enter combat .. you should be able to make it bigger .. or move it to another location, or change it's color ... but you shouldn't be able to add the light, if the default UI doesn't include it.
just my 2 cents .. which no one asked for. can I haz it back noaw plz?!?!
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Just wanted to add, that WoW developers themselves admitted they had to start tuning encounters with use of mods in mind at certain point because otherwise they weren't able to provide challenge at all due to how addo-ons like DBM and threat metters trivilized certain mechanics.
Let's not even mention the idiocy that was deCurse back in early vanilla that automated the whole dispelling process...
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm against as far as mods go. Included in this list would be damage meters. If something is lacking in the game, then it needs to be in the game, not in an add-on or mod.
For instance, instead of encounters being timed down to the second with dbm and having popup indicators telling you what to do, have visual queues in the world itself so you can make a reasonable decision on what you should do next. It makes the encounters feel more dynamic, even if the sequence of events is the same. Give players rewards based on their contributions in dps, healing or whatever to encourage them to do better. Don't give them a meter to compare with everyone else.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
No mods, and there never will be. Ever. Not that I mind them, I never use them but I never felt affected by them much either. But Anet's philosophy is that you look at your UI as ~little~ as is possibly possible, so mods that focus on the UI aren't going to happen. Mods that afford sorting and stuff are already covered with the ingame UI, and once again they want people watching the battle not the UI so mods that allow you to time boss moves would be a no-go as well.
I suppose Anet's philosophy could change in the future, but it seems unlikely. In addition to their own feelings, the overall GW community is against mods as well out of fear of disadvantage in PvP.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
To answer the OP, no I don't think there will be many mods allowed. ANet seems to be taking as strict stance against them.
Personally, I really don't want them in the game. I would prefer that people at least attempt to play the game as it was intended to be played.
Additionally, in a game based primarily on skill, I can see mods/macros becoming a huge problem if allowed. One example would be modifying stealth textures so that you can see people in stealth. Another example would be a market macro to buy and sell at certain prices.
I usually go by a general rule: one macro=one key. I have no problem with rebinding a skill to a different key. I do have a problem with binding skill patters (use skills 5, 3, and then 4 when one key is pressed).
I'm not saying that my opinion is right or wrong. What I am saying is that mods being used by other people may ruin the game for me. That's not cool.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
I love how this thread's discussion is all about an handful of mods.
DPS meter, DBM, Healbots, gearscore.... they are just a tiny fraction of mods. Now I understand why they get mentioned all the time as, yes, they really heavily modified the game and even had the developer makes content keeping in mind those mods exist, but this is like speaking of cars and thinking only sport cars exists. "we cannot open our cities to cars, they would go 120 km/hour and kill our poor children! think of the children!! No cars in Cities!"
Well, I just opened my Curse client and there are 5138 mods. Curse does not even carry all of them, so there are actually much more out there. These are just mods currently updated as well.
Forget Gearscore! Forget DBM! Let's ArenaNet limits them! I do not care!
But Think Auctionator! GHI! Atlas Loot! Mini map mods! Gathermate! Pawn! Flagrsp! TotalRP! ImmersionRP! MOGIT! Opie! Quest completist (DE completist?)! I would say Bartender, but clearly Anet wants to keep the bar UI as it is, fine, no bar add ons then.
These are all the MODS I currently have on WoW that do not affect gameplay AT ALL. Auctionator is for Auction house, it permits me to search for items in a smart way, see prices, compile shopping lists and much more.
GHI, aka GryphonHeart Items is maybe the most genius mod ever made in WoW. Permits you to create custom items only people with GHI can see and trade. such items don't do anything mechanical, but can grant Buffs with your own graphic, can contain your own text etc. Great for making all sort of props for roleplaying.
Atlas loot permits you to check the various loot you can get from all the various dungeons in the game. Also show you various collections of armor sets available here and there, so you can check what you would want to get from X or Y and plan accordingly.
GatherMate just add a resource node to your map when you find it, so you can open your map and plan where to go to gather your copper.
Pawn permits you to check items through your own criteria. You assign values to various stats on the item and then Pawn automatically tells you that this item is 100 points for you, while the one you have is 90 points, so you want it. Useful when loot drop and you are unsure if it is better or not than what you have. (like you can give X points to 1 point of Stamina on the item, Y points to 1 point of Strength, Dodge is valued W, Parry Z and so on)
FlagRSP, ImmersionRP and TotalRP are all RP tools to add descriptions to your character, add mood states to your character, etc.
Mogit is a armor/mount/pet showcase. you can search for armor pieces and see it on your current character either alone (so bypassing the pesky tabard that hide chest pieces of armor) or in combination with what you want. You can also check pets and mounts to create the full package of how your character will look like.
Opie permits you to make wheels of icons you open with a key. So you can like have all your crafting skills available on a key instead of taking important space on your bars.
Quest Completist just list all quests in a certain zone and shows you which ones you have done and which one you haven't. Also show you on the map the location of all quest givers.
Bartender4 is a classical bar repositioning and customization program. (As said, Anet does not want this, so ok, limit this away).
You will notice MANY of these ARE pretty optional. I mean you do not need Auctionator at all unless you play the AH a bit. Mogit is useful only if you care about coordinating how you look like. Pawn is just convenience, Etc. I would not ask the Arenanet developers to implement all this stuff as they are used only by a fraction of the player base, why would they use precious man hours for this?
But of a modder I can surely ask. These were all created because of the needs of a few people. One of those was good with the LUA language and did a mod, easy peasy.
So I AGREE that certain mods, like Recount and DBM, change how the game is played... so cut them off! but they are just a part of the mods, not the whole of it.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Creating custom items? As long as they have no impact on the actual game, like, only displaying a description the player set himself, or consuming "custom" food that does not apply a buff (like the regular food), that might be okay.
Stuff like Atlas or Pawn is okay, too, but changing the auction house would make playing it easier and therefore have a huge impact on prices for everyone.
As the crafting skills are not skills you carry with you on your bar, but you go to a workbench etc. and use it, a mod like Opie would be uselss.
90% of the mods mentioned are either useless in GW 2, or would have a huge impact on the game. Changing the design of the UI (color, textures, adding ornaments) is fine, something like TexMod is too, as long as it doesn't break stuff like stealth, which as someone mentioned shouldn't be client sided anyways.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
GW2 caters to the demographic of players like me, who have been playing MMORPGs for two decades, and who like their games as balanced as possible and without third party crutches made by unreliable amateur developers and giving advantages to those who use them just because the game's developer didn't do his job with his UI and is lazy.
If more developers catered to my demographic, we'd have less crap games like all the failed WoW clones we got served since 2004.
This said, welcome to my block list until you learn not to make assumptions about people you don't know.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
Someone mentioned LUA. Thanks to LUA, we had a uber fishing bot in Wow. I still think no one got banned using it. Don't get me wrong, I'm against boting/cheating, but it was part of the game, like every mod/addon out there. Everyone could make gold and pay game time with ingame gold, why I should be the only one honest player paying with real money?
I'm glad GW2 not going that way.
Still there are allways people out there that use it to cheet.
The UI has everything you will ever need, and if its not there, persuade Arenanet to add it.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
If there were a way to have the mods that do not affect game play in a way that forces the developers to change how they write encounters, I'd say, "Cool". You don't get one without the other though.
Not speaking for anyone else, but if it means living without DBM, Recount, GearScore and Healbot, I can live without all the other stuff that I could get with mods. I'd much prefer it if ANet made specific things user customizable, like the AH interface or the general UI, without scripting.
Finally, people on internet forums, especially MMORPG players shouldn't use metaphors to try and make their point. I don't know if it's that we don't use them right, or if they're really meant to be used in telling stories, rather than debates. In any event, just say, "No" to metaphors.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Here's the thing. I have seen no game that allows for third party addons/mods that go beyond simple texture changes that has NOT had to allow mods than effect gameplay.
If they can put in something like Atlasloot without DBM? Whatever, doesn't bother me any.
All I want is to make sure we don't have a situation like WoW where the developers have had to alter gameplay mechanics because of mods.
Simple solution is to break mods that change the game beyond the intended design.
The problem with this is you spend time and effeort in a never-ending escalating war or wills between the development team and modders. The modders find a new way to circumvent game mechanics, the devs find a way to shut that mod down without affecting others. The modders find a new way. It repeats.
The simpler solution is just not have any at all. Sucks for those that want them, but I'd rather dev time be spent making my game better, not trying to maintain game balance every time a mod screws something up.
You talking in extremes. 99% (the vast majority) of mods do not alter game play.
I may call BS on that number, but it doesn't actually matter.
Let's just say in WoW that recount was the only gameplay-affecting mod ever. The one and only. Since that mod has become commonplace, EVERY raid developed since has had to take it into account.
Or let's make the example of Gearscore. Since that came into place, Blizz had to A) develop their own version,
spend time repeatedly breaking the original (the modder than made it kept working around their breaks), and C) redesign their entire dungeon finder system to restrict players based on their gear level. How much of that time could have been spent adding content, fixing other bugs, balancing combat, or any number of other things?
I can call BS on raids being desined around recount... Raids are designed around dmg, mitigation, and healing. Recount records those things...
Gearscore? That should have been broken alnog time ago and never been allowed into the game. Yes WoW did simplify all stats to a gearscore number. No one wants this.
Again gearscore is one of the most extreme addons ever made, along with healbot, that one that allowed people to draw pictures on the screen and DBM.
Do some research. A WoW Dev (I wanna say it was Ghostcrawler himself) flat out admitted they had to tweak encounters to take mods like Recount, DBM, and Omen into account.
Recount made players focus on their numbers more than mechanics. They were able to eke more damage out, and made encounters easier because they could do so. So Blizz had to tweak encounters, making them require more damage and adding more complex mechanics, to compensate. The latter's not such a bad thing, but it's still developemtn cycle time spent dealing with an addon.
DBM Made dealing with special mechanics trivial, because it analyzed timers and literally walked you through every step you had to perform to succeed. Blizz had to again add challenge to encounters, including changing form static timers on attacks to a cooldown system, where the boss COULD use that ability again in 30 seconds..but he might wait until 45. Again, not per se a bad change, but all of this was development time spent on an addon.
Threat meters trivialized aggro control. Period. now dps could tell without a doubt when they were getting close to grabbing a mob Tanks knew which adds were in danger of getting lost and needed more threat focused. Treat became a joke. So blizz had to tighten the numbers on thread for each encounter to make it harder. Again, not bad...oh wait...
They've been designing all that content based on the addons. What about the players that don't use them? Well, since the majority do, and Blizz designed around having them...content became so troublesome without them that most people that didn't ahve those mods felt forced to install them. The mods themselves forced the developers to build a game that required mods.
Edit: reading post above then re-editing