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This genre is dead

FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,564Member Uncommon

100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.

If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.

MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.

Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.

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Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Dead?

    The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

    In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

    It is getting BETTER.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,564Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Dead?The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.It is getting BETTER.

    the genre is dead. not the market. the business of taking old console game concepts into the mmo space is huge. the genre that attempted to make virtual worlds is dead.

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Dead?

    The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

    In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

    It is getting BETTER.

    It is getting worse IMO. Instances (cutting the world into many little pieces), cash shops, getting a small portion of the game for FREE and then finding out you are crippled if you don't pay (not true in a few instances). How about everything being on rails? What happened to exploration? Why are people not as social now that we have all these things to assist us into grouping? Why is everything just handed to us now with a low difficulty rating? I understand the grind sucks, but difficulty and grinding don't have to mean the same thing.

     

    Why is it normal to repeat the same damn thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again to unlock stuff, and that is your "end game content". Then, when an update comes out, your new end game content is just doing the new thing that came out over and over and over and over and over again to unluck slightly more powerful stuff. Which then just leaves many new players left behind drastically as not as many people want to group up to unlock TIER 1 armour/weps, because all the other players are too busy doing TIER 3 over and over and over and over again.

     

    Its no wonder most people are only in a game a few months at a time as opposed to years. Oh well. Things will turn around eventually.

  • GurpslordGurpslord Hutchinson, MNPosts: 350Member
    Originally posted by madazz
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Dead?

    The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

    In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

    It is getting BETTER.

    It is getting worse IMO. Instances (cutting the world into many little pieces), cash shops, getting a small portion of the game for FREE and then finding out you are crippled if you don't pay (not true in a few instances). How about everything being on rails? What happened to exploration? Why are people not as social now that we have all these things to assist us into grouping? Why is everything just handed to us now with a low difficulty rating? I understand the grind sucks, but difficulty and grinding don't have to mean the same thing.

     

    Why is it normal to repeat the same damn thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again to unlock stuff, and that is your "end game content". Then, when an update comes out, your new end game content is just doing the new thing that came out over and over and over and over and over again to unluck slightly more powerful stuff. Which then just leaves many new players left behind drastically as not as many people want to group up to unlock TIER 1 armour/weps, because all the other players are too busy doing TIER 3 over and over and over and over again.

     

    Its no wonder most people are only in a game a few months at a time as opposed to years. Oh well. Things will turn around eventually.

    The problem is back in the days of people playing for years at a time in giant virtual worlds there were very few options.  People didn't really have a choice.  If you wanted to play a game online with friends it was take it or leave it.  Things evolved from meridian, to UO, to EQ etc etc etc.  The industry isn't dead, nor is the genre.  It simply changed to suit the people playing it.  Yes, that's right.  The old schoolers are now the minority, they ushered in the genre and made it mainstream, thus a lot more people began paying attention and getting involved and the needs and wants of those consumers eventually out weighed the needs and wants of the die hard originals.

    So, there it is.  Things won't turn around, they're ever getting more aggressively inclusive to fit more and more people, meaning that the good old days of sandboxy yore are not likely to rear up too often or even too successfully.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,564Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Gurpslord
    Originally posted by madazz Originally posted by nariusseldon Dead? The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead. In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE. It is getting BETTER.
    It is getting worse IMO. Instances (cutting the world into many little pieces), cash shops, getting a small portion of the game for FREE and then finding out you are crippled if you don't pay (not true in a few instances). How about everything being on rails? What happened to exploration? Why are people not as social now that we have all these things to assist us into grouping? Why is everything just handed to us now with a low difficulty rating? I understand the grind sucks, but difficulty and grinding don't have to mean the same thing.   Why is it normal to repeat the same damn thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again to unlock stuff, and that is your "end game content". Then, when an update comes out, your new end game content is just doing the new thing that came out over and over and over and over and over again to unluck slightly more powerful stuff. Which then just leaves many new players left behind drastically as not as many people want to group up to unlock TIER 1 armour/weps, because all the other players are too busy doing TIER 3 over and over and over and over again.   Its no wonder most people are only in a game a few months at a time as opposed to years. Oh well. Things will turn around eventually.
    The problem is back in the days of people playing for years at a time in giant virtual worlds there were very few options.  People didn't really have a choice.  If you wanted to play a game online with friends it was take it or leave it.  Things evolved from meridian, to UO, to EQ etc etc etc.  The industry isn't dead, nor is the genre.  It simply changed to suit the people playing it.  Yes, that's right.  The old schoolers are now the minority, they ushered in the genre and made it mainstream, thus a lot more people began paying attention and getting involved and the needs and wants of those consumers eventually out weighed the needs and wants of the die hard originals.

    So, there it is.  Things won't turn around, they're ever getting more aggressively inclusive to fit more and more people, meaning that the good old days of sandboxy yore are not likely to rear up too often or even too successfully.


    What options are you talking about? The option to kill stuff 100 different ways in 1000 different games? I liked the older options better. Yeah there were less actual games to choose from, but at least each of those games had dozens of different ways to play. MMOs today have 2 maybe 3 ways to play, tops. And no, killing something with a fireball instead of a crossbow is not variety.

  • RoenickRoenick new york, NYPosts: 14Member

    The real issue is they are taking the MMO out of MMORPG games. No one talks to each other outside of a few instances or if you're lucky enough to be a in a tight knit guild in a game that still has guilds.

    We're all now special snowflakes with our own AWESOME epic quest where we're the hero.

    Bring back the world where you are just a spec of dust on the large map. Where you could could travel for 20+ mins and not run into a soul till you got to a heavily populated town. That was immersion. Not run to X spot kill 10 run to Y spot kill 10 move to next level/area with harder kill 10 of quests.

    And even though I plan to GW2 i sense even with their new appoach to run to X and kill 10...it's still the same ole same ole.

    I think people would pay/subscribe to an "old school" type of game with modern graphics, but what  developer is going to take that risk?

  • ClerigoClerigo MatosinhosPosts: 400Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Dead?

    The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

    In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

    It is getting BETTER.

    Did you really put some time into that response or you did it by heart in the heat of the hour?

    I honestly cant say i agree 100% with the OP, but i sure can say you are 100% wrong. How can the last years of mmorpg life make it better in any model or conception? Do you really believe in what you are saying?

    If i close my eyes to GW2, a tittle that many gamers are following and expecting to bring some freash air to a genre in a decline path, what other new mmorpg launches you can name that actually brought some solid concept? rift? swtor? what...2..3..4 names? Name them plz...after you name them, open the mmorpg list in this site....start counting them, start reading community feedback....and ask yourself....

    "what the heck am i talking about??"

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gurpslord

    The problem is back in the days of people playing for years at a time in giant virtual worlds there were very few options.  People didn't really have a choice.  If you wanted to play a game online with friends it was take it or leave it.  Things evolved from meridian, to UO, to EQ etc etc etc.  The industry isn't dead, nor is the genre.  It simply changed to suit the people playing it.  Yes, that's right.  The old schoolers are now the minority, they ushered in the genre and made it mainstream, thus a lot more people began paying attention and getting involved and the needs and wants of those consumers eventually out weighed the needs and wants of the die hard originals.

    So, there it is.  Things won't turn around, they're ever getting more aggressively inclusive to fit more and more people, meaning that the good old days of sandboxy yore are not likely to rear up too often or even too successfully.

    I disagree. I think things will turn around. While there were few options on which games to choose, there were more options as to what you could do in those games.

     

    I don't think the genre/industry is dead. I just think it is stale and we are all to lazy to throw it out and make a new loaf.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Dead?

     

    The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

    In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

    It is getting BETTER.


     

    the genre is dead. not the market. the business of taking old console game concepts into the mmo space is huge. the genre that attempted to make virtual worlds is dead.

    Yeh. The genre of virtual world is dead. But MMOs are NOT virtual worlds anymore. They are lobby based co-op games .. and this genre is flourishing.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,564Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Roenick
    The real issue is they are taking the MMO out of MMORPG games. No one talks to each other outside of a few instances or if you're lucky enough to be a in a tight knit guild in a game that still has guilds.We're all now special snowflakes with our own AWESOME epic quest where we're the hero.Bring back the world where you are just a spec of dust on the large map. Where you could could travel for 20+ mins and not run into a soul till you got to a heavily populated town. That was immersion. Not run to X spot kill 10 run to Y spot kill 10 move to next level/area with harder kill 10 of quests.And even though I plan to GW2 i sense even with their new appoach to run to X and kill 10...it's still the same ole same ole.I think people would pay/subscribe to an "old school" type of game with modern graphics, but what  developer is going to take that risk?

    Sadly, thats not going to stop until developers let go of their stranglehold on mmo content. What are these guys so afraid of? Are they that threatened by the thought of giving creative tools to the players and letting us build in their precious little world?

  • QuicklyScottQuicklyScott BristolPosts: 433Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Dead?

    The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

    In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

    It is getting BETTER.

    Oh, what terrible problems, those really are crippling modern MMOs.........image

    image

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,564Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by nariusseldon Dead?   The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead. In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE. It is getting BETTER.
      the genre is dead. not the market. the business of taking old console game concepts into the mmo space is huge. the genre that attempted to make virtual worlds is dead.
    Yeh. The genre of virtual world is dead. But MMOs are NOT virtual worlds anymore. They are lobby based co-op games .. and this genre is flourishing.

    Jon Peters stated that they are making a virtual world with GW2 (at the pax east 2012 mmorpg.com panel). And looking at what GW2 actually is, thats a load of bs.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,297Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by QuicklyScott
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Dead?

    The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

    In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

    It is getting BETTER.

    Oh, what terrible problems, those really are crippling modern MMOs.........image

    Well they aren't a problem in modern MMO's because modern MMO's have done away with that.  They were a problem in old MMO's.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • MephsterMephster Tyria, NJPosts: 1,188Member

    A few companies that come to mind that maybe will kickstart the genre once again. CCP  (World of Darkness), Blizzard (Titan) and Undead Labs (Zombie console mmo). These companies will give hope to the genre.

    Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!

    http://www.grimdawn.com/

  • jeremyjodesjeremyjodes antioch, ORPosts: 679Member

    All (ahem) good thing's must come to an end someday. I hope sooner then later. and let free to play die with it.

    image

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by QuicklyScott
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    Oh, what terrible problems, those really are crippling modern MMOs.........image

    Well they aren't a problem in modern MMO's because modern MMO's have done away with that.  They were a problem in old MMO's.

    Replaced by the problems of zero longevity for most titles, with zero community in most titles and trying to coerce e-sport games (which are great) into a genre which now has heavy stat and item progression (not great at all).

     

    Yeah tbh, I think having to spend a few minutes to grab a group is a bit less of an issue then what it has been replaced with.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,436Member Uncommon

    With TSW and GW2 this is a great year for MMOs! I just have to find the time to play both...and maybe MOP lol.

    image
  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,564Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by QuicklyScott Originally posted by nariusseldon Dead? The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead. In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE. It is getting BETTER.
    Oh, what terrible problems, those really are crippling modern MMOs.........
    Well they aren't a problem in modern MMO's because modern MMO's have done away with that.  They were a problem in old MMO's.


    Giving people instant grouping tools and no need for specific roles is just caving in to the selfish, anti social players that infiltrated the genre.

  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member

    To the OP I agree with you, but there is one glimmer of hope. Archeage may deliver on a true MMO of old feel.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    This reads less like a well thought out comment on the genre and more like 'No one's making games with all the features I like, so therefor the whole genre is garbage'.

    I don't know what MMOs you thought you were playing when the genre was born, but they were 100% combat oriented. Don't tell me games like Meridian, Ultima, and EQ weren't focused around combat, lmfao. If anything, we have more variety now, than we ever had when the genre started. While combat oriented games are still the majority, we also have things like second life, which are not focused around combat.

    Esport is the name of PvP? Theres one game that has that in this genre. ONE. And that is GW2. So because this one game wants that as a feature, the whole genre is somehow screwed?

    And socialization has become automated? You may have to explain that one.

    Honestly, I get the whole nostalgia of past games, but I think a lot of people would be surprised if they actually went back and played some of these old games.

    It's time to face reality people.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,696Member Uncommon

    Don't know what decade-old console games played anything remotely like TSW, TOR, GW2, or any other MMORPG.

    Personally I'd love to see some non-combat-focused games, but to call the genre dead because games have focused on combat is pretty ridiculous.

    I also think I might enjoy a player-content game, although I have a lot less confidence in that than a carefully-crafted world where every corner holds something interesting.  The massive empty rolling hills of the past were really terrible game worlds to explore.  Modern MMORPGs do this much better.

    As for cash shops, that's completely optional except for the rare MMORPG which really borks their cash shop by making it pay2win (having stuck with mostly mainstream MMOs I have literally never seen pay2win items in the F2P games I've tried.)

    As for PVP, whether you call it esports or not, skill-centric PVP is better PVP because it's pure PVP.  There's a small, casual audience out there who wants world PVP (influenced by non-skill factors like zerging and progression.)  But most PVPers want a true competitive game, and world PVP fails to deliver that.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    I gotta disagree with the OP. its not dead, it has hit a painful Speedbumb but with a genre still in its infancy it cant be dead. was FPS's dead for the years upon years that it was the same game repeated with new guns and pretty new targets to shoot. no it was just in a downturn, now that new ideas are being brought in its getting popular again (well it is beyond popular now) MMORPG industry will do the same thing.

     

    TSW is a sure sign that it is starting to change, its a game that instead of saying "should i play a mage or a warrior" i say to myself "do i wanna do damage Via Zone, AoE consecutive hits, Heavy Single Target, or which ever new style i suddenly stumble upon"

     

    and i know what people are going to say "The game can't be good because funcom made it" to which i will reply "sure, then keep complaining that there is nothing new. the games are clones of wow and that your quitting MMORPG's, i wont miss you"  

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Roenick

    The real issue is they are taking the MMO out of MMORPG games. No one talks to each other outside of a few instances or if you're lucky enough to be a in a tight knit guild in a game that still has guilds.

     

    Talking to someone else on your computer used to be new and exciting.  It no longer is.  People went out of their way and out of their comfort zone to converse because it was required to accomplish anything.  MMO'ers have always been antisocial, we just couldn't get away with it 10 years ago.

  • thekid1thekid1 GroningenPosts: 789Member

    All I know is I''m tired of doing quests. LAME quests. Singe player games have much better quests (and NPC, creatures AI) then mmorpg's. So in that respect the OP is right when he says mmorpgs are ten year old console games.

    I don't get it. Why is is so hard to take advantage of the fact you can have 5000 people on one server and design a game for that which does not involve LAME quests and annoying raids.

    I only know two games which are designed properly; Eve online and Planetside (dead now)

    And neither of them are rpg's.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,564Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by aesperus
    This reads less like a well thought out comment on the genre and more like 'No one's making games with all the features I like, so therefor the whole genre is garbage'.

    Its dead because there are no virtual worlds left. Except some crusty, outdated imports that have adopted cash shops and are on life support.



    I don't know what MMOs you thought you were playing when the genre was born, but they were 100% combat oriented. Don't tell me games like Meridian, Ultima, and EQ weren't focused around combat, lmfao. If anything, we have more variety now, than we ever had when the genre started. While combat oriented games are still the majority, we also have things like second life, which are not focused around combat.

    SL isnt a virtual world mmorpg. Its a sandbox with a cash for virtual items economy.
    UO has more variety of gameplay than TOR, TSW, RIFT, and GW2 combined. Same with SWG. You are blind because you think combat variety = actual variety. Thats true if you're playing a fighting game, but when we're talking about virtual worlds its not. And stop whining about virtual worlds not being important anymore. That is THE BACKBONE of what an mmorpg should be. You make a world for players to exist in. That includes multiple ways to play beyond combat.


    Esport is the name of PvP? Theres one game that has that in this genre. ONE. And that is GW2. So because this one game wants that as a feature, the whole genre is somehow screwed?

    Its the name of the game because players demand 1v1 class balance and gameplay based twitch skill. Players have removed their avatars and put themselves in it place. They want real world recognition for their video game skills. That is the plague of the esport mentality. Nobody even gives a crap about why they are fighting. Nobody even gives a crap about their faction or even if there's a faction at all.


    And socialization has become automated? You may have to explain that one.

    You can group without talking to people. You get group rewards just by being in proximity of other people. How much more automated do you want it to get? I dont think its possible.


    Honestly, I get the whole nostalgia of past games, but I think a lot of people would be surprised if they actually went back and played some of these old games.

    It's time to face reality people.


    I'm looking at these games realistically and in comparison to the original mmorpgs. It seems you are the one going in with eyes wide shut.

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