LOL great thread.. I didn't read it all but looks like a bunch of people need tissues haha
btw I love ganking its just great, and looting if its possible.. thats the best. I miss old UO so bad...
I agree, it is a good thread. I wonder if the people who are ok with ganking are also the ones who enjoy getting ganked while they are trying to level their character. Because being corpse camped is fun! Why level when you can watch xxsepherothxxx dance on your bloody corpse?
Personally the loot is what drives me the most. Griefing and dancing I don't care for. Their have been times when I have ended up becoming friends with the person that I killed or was killed by because we started talking afterwards. Believe it or not some people can take being killed and not cry about it.
However I will say this, given the chance to fight unfairly I will take any edge I can get. I love stealthers and chars with speed boosts, and played a scout in SB all the time because of the advantage it gave me to strike when I choose and to withdraw when needed. Even though the char was not as powerfull, I would just sneak around and wait till the time was right.
But I am always wiling to become friends and rez you after I have looted your dead body..
If they had it there way, any form of PvP aside from instanced battlegrounds would be outlawed.
Eh, I wouldn't outlaw it.
But I do frequently point out that world PVP is casual PVP. Instead of victory being purely determined by skill and teamwork, population (unfair teams) is a factor. But bringing more friends isn't skill it's just...having more friends (or joining a bigger guild.) So it's diluted PVP, not pure PVP. No skill? No problem: join a big guild and you're going to be at a huge advantage.
And yet in spite of that, world PVP is also vastly less popular (even though it's more casual.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If they had it there way, any form of PvP aside from instanced battlegrounds would be outlawed.
Eh, I wouldn't outlaw it.
But I do frequently point out that world PVP is casual PVP. Instead of victory being purely determined by skill and teamwork, population (unfair teams) is a factor. But bringing more friends isn't skill it's just...having more friends (or joining a bigger guild.) So it's diluted PVP, not pure PVP. No skill? No problem: join a big guild and you're going to be at a huge advantage.
And yet in spite of that, world PVP is also vastly less popular (even though it's more casual.)
Except that this is wrong. You havning not played any true OW PvP games shows this. Most of the time the big guilds fall apart and end up losing more then they win in OW PvP. Its the smaller organized teams that usually win. Look at the mercs in DF. Smaller guild that took on the largest factions and won.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
If they had it there way, any form of PvP aside from instanced battlegrounds would be outlawed.
Strange thing to say. I feel no need to "outlaw" forced PvP in games. I just choose not to support such games financially. Plenty of games are built to suit your preference - Plenty to suit mine.
We will probably never meet eachother ingame and that is absolutely not a problem in any way.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
If they had it there way, any form of PvP aside from instanced battlegrounds would be outlawed.
Strange thing to say. I feel no need to "outlaw" forced PvP in games. I just choose not to support such games financially. Plenty of games are built to suit your preference - Plenty to suit mine.
We will probably never meet eachother ingame and that is absolutely not a problem in any way.
Fine with me. You chill on your PvE server and ill chill on my PvP server. What bothers me is the amount of people that roll PvP servers and then complain when PvP happens.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Except that this is wrong. You havning not played any true OW PvP games shows this. Most of the time the big guilds fall apart and end up losing more then they win in OW PvP. Its the smaller organized teams that usually win. Look at the mercs in DF. Smaller guild that took on the largest factions and won.
The guilds I joined were often small tightnit groups who augmented themselves with a ton of spam members and never lost. Boring, challengeless, casual PVP (when it actually happened which was rarish.)
Numbers are clearly an advantage, and the guilds I joined knew this.
Whereas other PVP games I play are wholly decided by skill and I never have to bother shopping around guilds to just get a consistently fun, close PVP experience. Quite the opposite: many PUB matches end up being great, close battles.
So it's not that victory isn't possible and skill doesn't matter, but that the experience is diluted by non-skill factors which ruins the entire point of competitive gaming.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If they had it there way, any form of PvP aside from instanced battlegrounds would be outlawed.
Strange thing to say. I feel no need to "outlaw" forced PvP in games. I just choose not to support such games financially. Plenty of games are built to suit your preference - Plenty to suit mine.
We will probably never meet eachother ingame and that is absolutely not a problem in any way.
Fine with me. You chill on your PvE server and ill chill on my PvP server. What bothers me is the amount of people that roll PvP servers and then complain when PvP happens.
This thread is about ganking though, which is is not exactly pvp. Its sneaking up and destroying someone on low level who has no way of defending themeselves. Thats a world away from fighting someone who has a fair chance of fighting back. Even EVE one of the major hardcore pvp players has some etiquette to protect the weak from ganking.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
You want to kill my lowbie toon as you run past, go ahead. That's fine, you ganked me. I'll rez and continue with what I was diong. You camp my body and purposely kill me over and over again with the only intention of ruining any fun I am having in the game. That makes you a douchebag griefer - plain and simple. I don't hate you, I'll just log off and go do something else but you're still a douchebag.
PvP isn't a license to be a douchebag. Ganking lowbies when you come across them is perfectly fair in my opinion. Camping lowbie areas and killing them over and over is what drives people away from PvP centric games. It's why I won't roll on PvP servers anymore. I have a life outside of games and don't have time to power-level. I want to enjoy the game when I have an hour here and there to play - not be killed by some guy who thinks it's funny to make sure I don't have fun in-game.
Except that this is wrong. You havning not played any true OW PvP games shows this. Most of the time the big guilds fall apart and end up losing more then they win in OW PvP. Its the smaller organized teams that usually win. Look at the mercs in DF. Smaller guild that took on the largest factions and won.
The guilds I joined were often small tightnit groups who augmented themselves with a ton of spam members and never lost. Boring, challengeless, casual PVP (when it actually happened which was rarish.)
Numbers are clearly an advantage, and the guilds I joined knew this.
Whereas other PVP games I play are wholly decided by skill and I never have to bother shopping around guilds to just get a consistently fun, close PVP experience. Quite the opposite: many PUB matches end up being great, close battles.
Kinda wondering what OW PvP games you have played since you already said you didnt play Lineage 2 DAoC EVE or Shadowbane. Because yes numbers make a difference, but they only make a difference if those numbers can work together. I have seen in L2 , DF etc. Smaller groups demolishing groups that have twice there numbers just because there organized. So yes numbers can mean something but its not the be all end all. Shit mercs would run around in DF of 10-12 people and take on twice there numbers quite frequently.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Kinda wondering what OW PvP games you have played since you already said you didnt play Lineage 2 DAoC EVE or Shadowbane. Because yes numbers make a difference, but they only make a difference if those numbers can work together. I have seen in L2 , DF etc. Smaller groups demolishing groups that have twice there numbers just because there organized. So yes numbers can mean something but its not the be all end all. Shit mercs would run around in DF of 10-12 people and take on twice there numbers quite frequently.
Well I did play L2, DAOC, EVE, and SB, but only for a very short time because they didn't seem keen on giving me fun gameplay.
It was DF I stuck with a tad longer and was part of a guild which had an organized core and simply stomped whoever we went after (if there was even a battle...oftentimes sieges happened without contention in an orgy of completely boring non-combat.)
All in all the worst form of PVP invented, and every time I've given it a chance it's disappointed. I'll stick with skill-intensive PVP games (which are also PVP games about PVP, and not about skill-grinding and travel times and basically filling most of your gameplay with non-PVP activities.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Kinda wondering what OW PvP games you have played since you already said you didnt play Lineage 2 DAoC EVE or Shadowbane. Because yes numbers make a difference, but they only make a difference if those numbers can work together. I have seen in L2 , DF etc. Smaller groups demolishing groups that have twice there numbers just because there organized. So yes numbers can mean something but its not the be all end all. Shit mercs would run around in DF of 10-12 people and take on twice there numbers quite frequently.
Well I did play L2, DAOC, EVE, and SB, but only for a very short time because they didn't seem keen on giving me fun gameplay.
It was DF I stuck with a tad longer and was part of a guild which had an organized core and simply stomped whoever we went after (if there was even a battle...oftentimes sieges happened without contention in an orgy of completely boring non-combat.)
All in all the worst form of PVP invented, and every time I've given it a chance it's disappointed. I'll stick with skill-intensive PVP games (which are also PVP games about PVP, and not about skill-grinding and travel times and basically filling most of your gameplay with non-PVP activities.)
Battlegrounds and Arena's are the worst form of PvP invented. All they are is class compositions and gear grinds.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
part of being a ganker is dealing with all the bile that's going to get tossed to you.
if you can't handle it play nice. if you can more power to you.
but you are never going to get anywhere posting what amounts to a troll, the point of which is to win sympathy for your ganking actions. you have to embrace being the bad guy, and that includes being hated reviled and ganked yourself and double crossed a lot. if you cant handle it, again, dont gank.
i never gank in eve and i never scam anyone but a ganker.
but i have gotten 400,000 isk plexes off a ganker (oops, what happened to those three zeroes) and i've camped a ganker's ISK making alt for 3 days in a row (he made the mistake of naming his alt something close to his own name and it just happened to work out that we play the same basic time of the day)
two things i would never ever do to a "clean" player.
but, that's his right to play the way he does.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
You know what would be cool is if they made it so you couldn't gank someone below a certain number of levels of you so that the person being attacked had a chance to fight back.
So a level 85 couldn't attack a level 20. But maybe a level 25 could...
psychow good idea (i think some games are like that) and good taste in music
i've seen mad sin and nekromantix 5x each :P
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Battlegrounds and Arena's are the worst form of PvP invented. All they are is class compositions and gear grinds.
Sure they're not great due to gear imbalances, but they're one non-skill factor closer to being pure PVP. World PVP doubles down on the non-skill factors (uneven teams and gear imbalances) and results in the worst type of PVP with the least focus on skillful competition.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Miss the point? More like .. don't like the point.
So what if i like e-sport and arena pvp. Devs seems to "respect" that rule-set. In fact, the whole game LOL was designed based on that ... and it is immensed popular.
Who says what pvp is about? When i play pvp, it is about what i want it to be about ... NOT your preference.
Are you telling me you love the "danger" of being repeatedly killed/camped by higher level with no recourse? That is not danger, nor there is any reward ... the only thing there is frustration. If you like that, be my guess and vote with your wallet. I will vote with mine.
Rather like... you missed my point. Which was that people who never play open world games should refrain from judging the PvP aspect of said games, and that PvE players who hate PvP should try and accept that PvP rulesets exist, instead of crying about them being unfair or bully-like or whatever. If you don't like PvP, don't play PvP games, simple as that.
As for e-sports: sure, you like it, but that doesn't mean e-sports is a better or more "real" form of PvP. I personally don't like arena/BG style PvP, but I wouldn't say it's less "real" than what I prefer. I'd never start lecturing some SC2 players on how their prefered style of PvP is less "hardcore" or less "real" than the open world style PvP of EVE, DF, MO or UO.
There are hordes of sucky casuals playing LoL, SC2, etc, as well as a small bunch ultra-hardcore professionals. In the same vein, open world games are home to many extremely skilled players who easily win fights vastly outnumbered, who rule the markets and the political/metagame, etc, but ofc also to many hangarounds and mediocre players who hide behind numbers and the game's safety systems. Still, using those systems against people who try to play it safe is also a kind of skill, albeit of a different kind than the "sportsmanlike" moralist like to promote.
In MO for example, some of the worst gankers were also among the best players. To them, killing everyone they saw was a form of practice; when you have 3000 + kills under your belt, your PvP experience far outweights that of a white knight who only seek out "fair" fights. Sure, many of those 3000 + kills were really ugly and unsportsmanlike, and the guys getting raped were probably innocent little babies minding their own business. But who cares? It's a game, and the rules of the games permits PvP, so if you chose to play the game, accept and master the ruleset instead of crying about it not suiting your moralist code.
PvP = Player versus Player. It comes in many forms, some prefer one type of it, others prefer another. To each his own.
Battlegrounds and Arena's are the worst form of PvP invented. All they are is class compositions and gear grinds.
Sure they're not great due to gear imbalances, but they're one non-skill factor closer to being pure PVP. World PVP doubles down on the non-skill factors (uneven teams and gear imbalances) and results in the worst type of PVP with the least focus on skillful competition.
False, because your not limited to the small map that battlegrounds give. If you have two guilds fighting each other tactics come into play way more then any battleground could ever achieve. In the OW there are unknown variables. In BG's there are no unknown. In a BG its always the team with the best gear wins. In the OW its not. Mainly because superior play is more prominent.
In a BG its all about respawning and getting back into the fight with no consequence what so ever. The OW is the exact opposite. You don't respawn and jump right back into the fight 10 seconds later. No you have to run back to your corpse or spawn in at your home point etc. Tactical play, flanking, retreats all those come into play that dont in BG's just because of the quick respawn.
Thats why OW PvP is far superior to BGs for PvP.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
False, because your not limited to the small map that battlegrounds give. If you have two guilds fighting each other tactics come into play way more then any battleground could ever achieve. In the OW there are unknown variables. In BG's there are no unknown. In a BG its always the team with the best gear wins. In the OW its not. Mainly because superior play is more prominent.
In a BG its all about respawning and getting back into the fight with no consequence what so ever. The OW is the exact opposite. You don't respawn and jump right back into the fight 10 seconds later. No you have to run back to your corpse or spawn in at your home point etc. Tactical play, flanking, retreats all those come into play that dont in BG's just because of the quick respawn.
Thats why OW PvP is far superior to BGs for PvP.
You talk of tactics and then pretend respawning and jumping into the fight has no consequence at all. Maybe you honestly don't understand the depth, or maybe you're just another person eager to ignore all the depth of typical PVP in a blind pursuit of casual world PVP.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
False, because your not limited to the small map that battlegrounds give. If you have two guilds fighting each other tactics come into play way more then any battleground could ever achieve. In the OW there are unknown variables. In BG's there are no unknown. In a BG its always the team with the best gear wins. In the OW its not. Mainly because superior play is more prominent.
In a BG its all about respawning and getting back into the fight with no consequence what so ever. The OW is the exact opposite. You don't respawn and jump right back into the fight 10 seconds later. No you have to run back to your corpse or spawn in at your home point etc. Tactical play, flanking, retreats all those come into play that dont in BG's just because of the quick respawn.
Thats why OW PvP is far superior to BGs for PvP.
You talk of tactics and then pretend respawning and jumping into the fight has no consequence at all. Maybe you honestly don't understand the depth, or maybe you're just another person eager to ignore all the depth of typical PVP in a blind pursuit of casual world PVP.
You really dont understand PvP at all do you. Respawning has no consequence. In world PvP if one of your team gets killed that means he is out of the fight for a long time and you have to make up for that downed man. In BG's you don't. Mainly because that man is going to be back almost instantly if not instantly (lucky respawn). There are no tactics involved in that. Its just throwing bodies at things until you overcome or get beat back. Only rated BG's have any sort of tactics involved and its not even deep thinking, just point swapping or stealth capping flag carriers etc.
In some games people actually prefer to die so there abilities come off Cooldown and they come back at full HP. How is that promoting anything good in PvP. World PvP is for the hardcore and many can't handle it, you seem like one of them... BG's are for casual PvPers, thats what they were designed for and around.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
From another thread discussing pretty much the same thing....
Originally posted by stragen001
Originally posted by waynejr2How about adding risk to the "ganker"?Suppose you had a skill based system where gaining points gain exponentially when you are using them against opponents near your skill level or higher. As a risk, add in the ability to lose points in a skill at a fast rate when fighting someone of a lower skill level. If you go around ganking, you risk very hard earned skill points. The highly skilled character now has to worry about getting attacked by a much weaker opponent who can gain skill points from him and take points away!
This is the most sensible solution I have ever heard. Add in that you lose skill points by attacking in groups that massively outnumber your opponent, and I think we have a solution.Gankers will find some way to argue against this as it means that they wont be able to faceroll lowbies anymore due to their higher level or better gear - without any need for skill, which is what they really want, even if claiming otherwise
OWPvP fans, please comment on this. You enjoy the risk of OWPvP right? Surely, if you enjoy PvP against opponents of equal level rather than just stomping on people of much lower level, or outnumbering them, then you would be in favour of a system like this?
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
From another thread discussing pretty much the same thing....
Originally posted by stragen001
Originally posted by waynejr2How about adding risk to the "ganker"?Suppose you had a skill based system where gaining points gain exponentially when you are using them against opponents near your skill level or higher. As a risk, add in the ability to lose points in a skill at a fast rate when fighting someone of a lower skill level. If you go around ganking, you risk very hard earned skill points. The highly skilled character now has to worry about getting attacked by a much weaker opponent who can gain skill points from him and take points away!
This is the most sensible solution I have ever heard. Add in that you lose skill points by attacking in groups that massively outnumber your opponent, and I think we have a solution.Gankers will find some way to argue against this as it means that they wont be able to faceroll lowbies anymore due to their higher level or better gear - without any need for skill, which is what they really want, even if claiming otherwise
OWPvP fans, please comment on this. You enjoy the risk of OWPvP right? Surely, if you enjoy PvP against opponents of equal level rather than just stomping on people of much lower level, or outnumbering them, then you would be in favour of a system like this?
No response eh........
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
From another thread discussing pretty much the same thing....
Originally posted by stragen001
Originally posted by waynejr2
OWPvP fans, please comment on this. You enjoy the risk of OWPvP right? Surely, if you enjoy PvP against opponents of equal level rather than just stomping on people of much lower level, or outnumbering them, then you would be in favour of a system like this?
Well for a start as an OWPvP "fan" I would prefer there to be no character skill progression/levels at all, as would many of the my peers I'm no doubt sure. With that aside...
The method mentioned though is a completely unworkable and moreover completely pointless mechanic. What happens if two groups the same size attack each other and one group wipes half the other? All of a sudden the mechanics would kick in. What would be the point in making decent sized attack forces to take over territory if you got penalized for it? It would make a mockery of the meta game quite frankly.
How about I make an attack force and fill the front line with a noob character zerg team? Now if you want to try and defeat my main force you are going to get penalized for attacking my pawn front line.
Penalties for killing fresh out of the box noobs in noob town, fine. Penalties for any lopsided combat? Nope.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by stragen001 From another thread discussing pretty much the same thing....Originally posted by stragen001Originally posted by waynejr2
OWPvP fans, please comment on this. You enjoy the risk of OWPvP right? Surely, if you enjoy PvP against opponents of equal level rather than just stomping on people of much lower level, or outnumbering them, then you would be in favour of a system like this?
Well for a start as an OWPvP "fan" I would prefer there to be no character skill progression/levels at all, as would many of the my peers I'm no doubt sure. With that aside...
The method mentioned though is a completely unworkable and moreover completely pointless mechanic. What happens if two groups the same size attack each other and one group wipes half the other? All of a sudden the mechanics would kick in. What would be the point in making decent sized attack forces to take over territory if you got penalized for it? It would make a mockery of the meta game quite frankly.
How about I make an attack force and fill the front line with a noob character zerg team? Now if you want to try and defeat my main force you are going to get penalized for attacking my pawn front line.
Penalties for killing fresh out of the box noobs in noob town, fine. Penalties for any lopsided combat? Nope.
Hmm. Good points, well made. Obviously I'm not a fan of owpvp or sandbox games so didn't really consider the problems the group size mechanic would cause for territory control, creating armies etc and the way you have explained it, it would ruin some important aspects that fans enjoy. However, I still think being penalised for attacking lowbies by damaging a gankers character is a great solution to stopping people ganking. how that penalty would work would have to depend on the game, and not just be largely cosmetic like an outlaw tag, but actually damage the character. Conversely, and to balance it out, attacking people of higher or equal level should improve the character.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
I don't hate you. I pitty you. Honestly and from the bottom of my heart I pitty you and all like you who get their rush from killing those who can't defend themselves. Like a 40 year old man beating up 3 year old kids on the street and taking their candy. I would pitty him too (and put him in jail of course). You are like a raging bull who is about to get castrated and only thing he can do is to show his anger is to trample some flowers in the meadow. I pitty him too.
I pitty you. Seriously I do. Also don't think I'm calling you a sad 40 year old castraded ox. I'm not, that would be rude. Even if you were one... castrated ox that is.
I also like to nuke you in any game I play. Don't hate me for it, I just love killing gankers like yorself. In fact I enjoy ganking gankers. All those wannabe pvpers in EVE that used to attack me while I pretended to be alone, at least 20 on 1. I would drop a fleet of 200 on them. Yes, don't hate me for it. Hate yourself for it, you earned it. Each time you went for my hulk, each time you went for my mining domi (yeah right, mining domi... what a laugh that was), each time you went for a "lost hictor" who "missed a jump":..
I pitty you and I always will. And I will nuke you ingame whenever I can. Not to protect the defensless, they should learn to protect themselves. Nah. I will nuke you so you can feel the karma hitting back, cosmic justice establishing itself. Equilibrium. For every one of you there is one of me in this world. So next time you go for a "defensless" target that just might be me waiting to "equalize" cosmic energy flows. Keep that in mind while you plot you next gank.... you 40 year old castrated ox.:)
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
From another thread discussing pretty much the same thing....
Originally posted by stragen001
Originally posted by waynejr2
Hmm. Good points, well made. Obviously I'm not a fan of owpvp or sandbox games so didn't really consider the problems the group size mechanic would cause for territory control, creating armies etc and the way you have explained it, it would ruin some important aspects that fans enjoy. However, I still think being penalised for attacking lowbies by damaging a gankers character is a great solution to stopping people ganking. how that penalty would work would have to depend on the game, and not just be largely cosmetic like an outlaw tag, but actually damage the character. Conversely, and to balance it out, attacking people of higher or equal level should improve the character.
As I say, for the me very best way is to minimize the effect any character stat/item progression has in the first place. If you limit "progression" to economic/territory/meta game progression then "ganking teh noobs" should be less of an issue.
As most mmorpgs have stat progression of some form, the best way to protect noobs is not by punishing the pker, but by bolstering the safety of the noob in certain starter areas. EVE does this, and any other game can do this easily via npcs, towers etc.
Outside of noob town everyone should be fair game, any attempt to disrupt this can distrupt the meta game, larger scale warfare and territroy control etc.
At the end of the day as long as 1 week old (for example) characters have a bit of protection, you would have to question the motive of people wanting more than this and loads of punishments for pking. Instead of trying to radically change something, they would be better served just playing something else.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Comments
Personally the loot is what drives me the most. Griefing and dancing I don't care for. Their have been times when I have ended up becoming friends with the person that I killed or was killed by because we started talking afterwards. Believe it or not some people can take being killed and not cry about it.
However I will say this, given the chance to fight unfairly I will take any edge I can get. I love stealthers and chars with speed boosts, and played a scout in SB all the time because of the advantage it gave me to strike when I choose and to withdraw when needed. Even though the char was not as powerfull, I would just sneak around and wait till the time was right.
But I am always wiling to become friends and rez you after I have looted your dead body..
Eh, I wouldn't outlaw it.
But I do frequently point out that world PVP is casual PVP. Instead of victory being purely determined by skill and teamwork, population (unfair teams) is a factor. But bringing more friends isn't skill it's just...having more friends (or joining a bigger guild.) So it's diluted PVP, not pure PVP. No skill? No problem: join a big guild and you're going to be at a huge advantage.
And yet in spite of that, world PVP is also vastly less popular (even though it's more casual.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Except that this is wrong. You havning not played any true OW PvP games shows this. Most of the time the big guilds fall apart and end up losing more then they win in OW PvP. Its the smaller organized teams that usually win. Look at the mercs in DF. Smaller guild that took on the largest factions and won.
http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=69
Last panel
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Strange thing to say. I feel no need to "outlaw" forced PvP in games. I just choose not to support such games financially. Plenty of games are built to suit your preference - Plenty to suit mine.
We will probably never meet eachother ingame and that is absolutely not a problem in any way.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
Fine with me. You chill on your PvE server and ill chill on my PvP server. What bothers me is the amount of people that roll PvP servers and then complain when PvP happens.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
The guilds I joined were often small tightnit groups who augmented themselves with a ton of spam members and never lost. Boring, challengeless, casual PVP (when it actually happened which was rarish.)
Numbers are clearly an advantage, and the guilds I joined knew this.
Whereas other PVP games I play are wholly decided by skill and I never have to bother shopping around guilds to just get a consistently fun, close PVP experience. Quite the opposite: many PUB matches end up being great, close battles.
So it's not that victory isn't possible and skill doesn't matter, but that the experience is diluted by non-skill factors which ruins the entire point of competitive gaming.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This thread is about ganking though, which is is not exactly pvp. Its sneaking up and destroying someone on low level who has no way of defending themeselves. Thats a world away from fighting someone who has a fair chance of fighting back. Even EVE one of the major hardcore pvp players has some etiquette to protect the weak from ganking.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
You want to kill my lowbie toon as you run past, go ahead. That's fine, you ganked me. I'll rez and continue with what I was diong. You camp my body and purposely kill me over and over again with the only intention of ruining any fun I am having in the game. That makes you a douchebag griefer - plain and simple. I don't hate you, I'll just log off and go do something else but you're still a douchebag.
PvP isn't a license to be a douchebag. Ganking lowbies when you come across them is perfectly fair in my opinion. Camping lowbie areas and killing them over and over is what drives people away from PvP centric games. It's why I won't roll on PvP servers anymore. I have a life outside of games and don't have time to power-level. I want to enjoy the game when I have an hour here and there to play - not be killed by some guy who thinks it's funny to make sure I don't have fun in-game.
Kinda wondering what OW PvP games you have played since you already said you didnt play Lineage 2 DAoC EVE or Shadowbane. Because yes numbers make a difference, but they only make a difference if those numbers can work together. I have seen in L2 , DF etc. Smaller groups demolishing groups that have twice there numbers just because there organized. So yes numbers can mean something but its not the be all end all. Shit mercs would run around in DF of 10-12 people and take on twice there numbers quite frequently.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Well I did play L2, DAOC, EVE, and SB, but only for a very short time because they didn't seem keen on giving me fun gameplay.
It was DF I stuck with a tad longer and was part of a guild which had an organized core and simply stomped whoever we went after (if there was even a battle...oftentimes sieges happened without contention in an orgy of completely boring non-combat.)
All in all the worst form of PVP invented, and every time I've given it a chance it's disappointed. I'll stick with skill-intensive PVP games (which are also PVP games about PVP, and not about skill-grinding and travel times and basically filling most of your gameplay with non-PVP activities.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Battlegrounds and Arena's are the worst form of PvP invented. All they are is class compositions and gear grinds.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
part of being a ganker is dealing with all the bile that's going to get tossed to you.
if you can't handle it play nice. if you can more power to you.
but you are never going to get anywhere posting what amounts to a troll, the point of which is to win sympathy for your ganking actions. you have to embrace being the bad guy, and that includes being hated reviled and ganked yourself and double crossed a lot. if you cant handle it, again, dont gank.
i never gank in eve and i never scam anyone but a ganker.
but i have gotten 400,000 isk plexes off a ganker (oops, what happened to those three zeroes) and i've camped a ganker's ISK making alt for 3 days in a row (he made the mistake of naming his alt something close to his own name and it just happened to work out that we play the same basic time of the day)
two things i would never ever do to a "clean" player.
but, that's his right to play the way he does.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
psychow good idea (i think some games are like that) and good taste in music
i've seen mad sin and nekromantix 5x each :P
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Sure they're not great due to gear imbalances, but they're one non-skill factor closer to being pure PVP. World PVP doubles down on the non-skill factors (uneven teams and gear imbalances) and results in the worst type of PVP with the least focus on skillful competition.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Rather like... you missed my point. Which was that people who never play open world games should refrain from judging the PvP aspect of said games, and that PvE players who hate PvP should try and accept that PvP rulesets exist, instead of crying about them being unfair or bully-like or whatever. If you don't like PvP, don't play PvP games, simple as that.
As for e-sports: sure, you like it, but that doesn't mean e-sports is a better or more "real" form of PvP. I personally don't like arena/BG style PvP, but I wouldn't say it's less "real" than what I prefer. I'd never start lecturing some SC2 players on how their prefered style of PvP is less "hardcore" or less "real" than the open world style PvP of EVE, DF, MO or UO.
There are hordes of sucky casuals playing LoL, SC2, etc, as well as a small bunch ultra-hardcore professionals. In the same vein, open world games are home to many extremely skilled players who easily win fights vastly outnumbered, who rule the markets and the political/metagame, etc, but ofc also to many hangarounds and mediocre players who hide behind numbers and the game's safety systems. Still, using those systems against people who try to play it safe is also a kind of skill, albeit of a different kind than the "sportsmanlike" moralist like to promote.
In MO for example, some of the worst gankers were also among the best players. To them, killing everyone they saw was a form of practice; when you have 3000 + kills under your belt, your PvP experience far outweights that of a white knight who only seek out "fair" fights. Sure, many of those 3000 + kills were really ugly and unsportsmanlike, and the guys getting raped were probably innocent little babies minding their own business. But who cares? It's a game, and the rules of the games permits PvP, so if you chose to play the game, accept and master the ruleset instead of crying about it not suiting your moralist code.
PvP = Player versus Player. It comes in many forms, some prefer one type of it, others prefer another. To each his own.
False, because your not limited to the small map that battlegrounds give. If you have two guilds fighting each other tactics come into play way more then any battleground could ever achieve. In the OW there are unknown variables. In BG's there are no unknown. In a BG its always the team with the best gear wins. In the OW its not. Mainly because superior play is more prominent.
In a BG its all about respawning and getting back into the fight with no consequence what so ever. The OW is the exact opposite. You don't respawn and jump right back into the fight 10 seconds later. No you have to run back to your corpse or spawn in at your home point etc. Tactical play, flanking, retreats all those come into play that dont in BG's just because of the quick respawn.
Thats why OW PvP is far superior to BGs for PvP.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
You talk of tactics and then pretend respawning and jumping into the fight has no consequence at all. Maybe you honestly don't understand the depth, or maybe you're just another person eager to ignore all the depth of typical PVP in a blind pursuit of casual world PVP.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You really dont understand PvP at all do you. Respawning has no consequence. In world PvP if one of your team gets killed that means he is out of the fight for a long time and you have to make up for that downed man. In BG's you don't. Mainly because that man is going to be back almost instantly if not instantly (lucky respawn). There are no tactics involved in that. Its just throwing bodies at things until you overcome or get beat back. Only rated BG's have any sort of tactics involved and its not even deep thinking, just point swapping or stealth capping flag carriers etc.
In some games people actually prefer to die so there abilities come off Cooldown and they come back at full HP. How is that promoting anything good in PvP. World PvP is for the hardcore and many can't handle it, you seem like one of them... BG's are for casual PvPers, thats what they were designed for and around.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
From another thread discussing pretty much the same thing....
OWPvP fans, please comment on this. You enjoy the risk of OWPvP right? Surely, if you enjoy PvP against opponents of equal level rather than just stomping on people of much lower level, or outnumbering them, then you would be in favour of a system like this?
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
No response eh........
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Well for a start as an OWPvP "fan" I would prefer there to be no character skill progression/levels at all, as would many of the my peers I'm no doubt sure. With that aside...
The method mentioned though is a completely unworkable and moreover completely pointless mechanic. What happens if two groups the same size attack each other and one group wipes half the other? All of a sudden the mechanics would kick in. What would be the point in making decent sized attack forces to take over territory if you got penalized for it? It would make a mockery of the meta game quite frankly.
How about I make an attack force and fill the front line with a noob character zerg team? Now if you want to try and defeat my main force you are going to get penalized for attacking my pawn front line.
Penalties for killing fresh out of the box noobs in noob town, fine. Penalties for any lopsided combat? Nope.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
OWPvP fans, please comment on this. You enjoy the risk of OWPvP right? Surely, if you enjoy PvP against opponents of equal level rather than just stomping on people of much lower level, or outnumbering them, then you would be in favour of a system like this?
Well for a start as an OWPvP "fan" I would prefer there to be no character skill progression/levels at all, as would many of the my peers I'm no doubt sure. With that aside...
The method mentioned though is a completely unworkable and moreover completely pointless mechanic. What happens if two groups the same size attack each other and one group wipes half the other? All of a sudden the mechanics would kick in. What would be the point in making decent sized attack forces to take over territory if you got penalized for it? It would make a mockery of the meta game quite frankly.
How about I make an attack force and fill the front line with a noob character zerg team? Now if you want to try and defeat my main force you are going to get penalized for attacking my pawn front line.
Penalties for killing fresh out of the box noobs in noob town, fine. Penalties for any lopsided combat? Nope.
Hmm. Good points, well made. Obviously I'm not a fan of owpvp or sandbox games so didn't really consider the problems the group size mechanic would cause for territory control, creating armies etc and the way you have explained it, it would ruin some important aspects that fans enjoy. However, I still think being penalised for attacking lowbies by damaging a gankers character is a great solution to stopping people ganking. how that penalty would work would have to depend on the game, and not just be largely cosmetic like an outlaw tag, but actually damage the character. Conversely, and to balance it out, attacking people of higher or equal level should improve the character.Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
I don't hate you. I pitty you. Honestly and from the bottom of my heart I pitty you and all like you who get their rush from killing those who can't defend themselves. Like a 40 year old man beating up 3 year old kids on the street and taking their candy. I would pitty him too (and put him in jail of course). You are like a raging bull who is about to get castrated and only thing he can do is to show his anger is to trample some flowers in the meadow. I pitty him too.
I pitty you. Seriously I do. Also don't think I'm calling you a sad 40 year old castraded ox. I'm not, that would be rude. Even if you were one... castrated ox that is.
I also like to nuke you in any game I play. Don't hate me for it, I just love killing gankers like yorself. In fact I enjoy ganking gankers. All those wannabe pvpers in EVE that used to attack me while I pretended to be alone, at least 20 on 1. I would drop a fleet of 200 on them. Yes, don't hate me for it. Hate yourself for it, you earned it. Each time you went for my hulk, each time you went for my mining domi (yeah right, mining domi... what a laugh that was), each time you went for a "lost hictor" who "missed a jump":..
I pitty you and I always will. And I will nuke you ingame whenever I can. Not to protect the defensless, they should learn to protect themselves. Nah. I will nuke you so you can feel the karma hitting back, cosmic justice establishing itself. Equilibrium. For every one of you there is one of me in this world. So next time you go for a "defensless" target that just might be me waiting to "equalize" cosmic energy flows. Keep that in mind while you plot you next gank.... you 40 year old castrated ox.:)
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
As I say, for the me very best way is to minimize the effect any character stat/item progression has in the first place. If you limit "progression" to economic/territory/meta game progression then "ganking teh noobs" should be less of an issue.
As most mmorpgs have stat progression of some form, the best way to protect noobs is not by punishing the pker, but by bolstering the safety of the noob in certain starter areas. EVE does this, and any other game can do this easily via npcs, towers etc.
Outside of noob town everyone should be fair game, any attempt to disrupt this can distrupt the meta game, larger scale warfare and territroy control etc.
At the end of the day as long as 1 week old (for example) characters have a bit of protection, you would have to question the motive of people wanting more than this and loads of punishments for pking. Instead of trying to radically change something, they would be better served just playing something else.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I'm baffled to why anyone would think that someone who 'ganks' in game would in real life.
It's also amusing as most animals (humans included) 'gank' the weak in order to survive.