Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
I'll say this yet another time to yet another person - the only people saying gw2 is a second coming or jesus MMO are the ones that don't like it. So please stop using that term. It only makes people prejudiced against you straight from the get go.
And as to your question - aren't you just that in a trinity MMO though? An interchangeable part of a machine? A machine with three different gears - dps, healer and tank. If one of those isn't working well, replace it with another gear and the machine is working again just with the same configuration.
From personal experience, boy am I glad to see other people if I'm doing an event. There's been a good few events where I've been struggling alone, but when that second person shows up to help, I know that I need his help to complete it, and he needs my help to complete it.
If you're talking from strictly dungeons/organized teams point of view, well, even more so. There is no clear cut roles, but instead you'll need to piece together what skills/effects the team has and what it needs, and each character can adjust their skills to bring whatever is needed to the table.
For me it's a resounding no to trinity, it's way more fun and challenging this way.
I find this post ironic. Last night another mesmer and I tried to escort a Moa trainer to another place in a dynamic event. We kept dying. It was more frustrating (a lot more frustrating) than fun. Finally the other mesmer invited another player - a guardian. We breezed through the rest of event with no problem (well the guardian did die once). Why was it so easy? It was not due to the third player - it was because the Guardian tanked! While he kept the mobs focus we tore then up with dps. I say a resounding YES to the Trinity!
Did the tank just sit there taking all the hits, and make sure the aggro stayed on him at all times, and dealing little to no damage?
Of course it'll help to have another person along, especially a guardian that can significantly control mob movement. But even a guardian can't take much more than a few direct hits from mobs, let alone the charged-up hits. What you described there was not holy trinity.
You miss the point - the Guardian did keep the aggro. Yes, he was not tanking in the strict dungeon sense, but that is not the point. The Guardian ACTED like a tank allowing us (the dps) to take out the mobs - something we (three) could not do if we just went dps. Can't you see the efficiency in this? This is why tanking was invented!
What i propose then (not a quick fix, and probs a crap idea) would be a system that before you enter a dungeon/encounter people do a random roll and get assigned skills and stats that suit for a temporary amount of time. With the ability to reroll after a few wipes if the current configuration isnt working.
Just an idea...
Interesting idea, but consider this:
1) You are taking away freedom from a character. I don't think many people would like having their skills randomly determined by a dice roll.
2) What if the rolls sucked, and you had the worst healer w/ heal skills, the worst tank w/ tanking skills, and the worst dps on dps skills.. You would basically be forced to suicide a few times to reset back to what is already in place in a few MMOs.
Sorry, but imho it's not a very good design. It doesn't really solve any of the problems, and it creates a few new ones.
Instead, what I like to see is different kinds of support. You don't need to have 'who has the highest heals!' to have a support role. It's an old mechanic, based off of over-simplified combat mechanics. You can play a support role by mitigating how much damage your team recieves, or by shutting down the monster so he can't attack as often. What's great about this, is you can also spread these types of skills out across classes. So instead of having 1 dedicated 'i'm gunna chill back here and spam heals & barriers' class, every class is contributing and important.
It's great to have a skilled team that knows what they are doing, with the freedom to equip the tools needed to complete the task at hand. It puts more emphasis on player skill, and you don't really lose that feeling of significance. If you've ever been that guy that saves the team with a well timed barrier, or a last-ditch heal, those are still there. You just aren't tying up a group for a half hour while you are busy making a grilled cheese. They now have the option to wait for you, or you can say 'I know a guy that's also pretty good, you guys should roll w/ him since I'm busy'.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
I'll say this yet another time to yet another person - the only people saying gw2 is a second coming or jesus MMO are the ones that don't like it. So please stop using that term. It only makes people prejudiced against you straight from the get go.
And as to your question - aren't you just that in a trinity MMO though? An interchangeable part of a machine? A machine with three different gears - dps, healer and tank. If one of those isn't working well, replace it with another gear and the machine is working again just with the same configuration.
From personal experience, boy am I glad to see other people if I'm doing an event. There's been a good few events where I've been struggling alone, but when that second person shows up to help, I know that I need his help to complete it, and he needs my help to complete it.
If you're talking from strictly dungeons/organized teams point of view, well, even more so. There is no clear cut roles, but instead you'll need to piece together what skills/effects the team has and what it needs, and each character can adjust their skills to bring whatever is needed to the table.
For me it's a resounding no to trinity, it's way more fun and challenging this way.
I find this post ironic. Last night another mesmer and I tried to escort a Moa trainer to another place in a dynamic event. We kept dying. It was more frustrating (a lot more frustrating) than fun. Finally the other mesmer invited another player - a guardian. We breezed through the rest of event with no problem (well the guardian did die once). Why was it so easy? It was not due to the third player - it was because the Guardian tanked! While he kept the mobs focus we tore then up with dps. I say a resounding YES to the Trinity!
Did the tank just sit there taking all the hits, and make sure the aggro stayed on him at all times, and dealing little to no damage?
Of course it'll help to have another person along, especially a guardian that can significantly control mob movement. But even a guardian can't take much more than a few direct hits from mobs, let alone the charged-up hits. What you described there was not holy trinity.
You miss the point - the Guardian did keep the aggro. Yes, he was not tanking in the strict dungeon sense, but that is not the point. The Guardian ACTED like a tank allowing us (the dps) to take out the mobs - something we (three) could not do if we just went dps. Can't you see the efficiency in this? This is why tanking was invented!
I can certainly see the efficiency in someone controlling mob movement and actions (not necessarily tanking), but I am still against Holy Trinity. When the guardian isn't helping these two mesmers by crippling and blocking some mobs, or when the mobs aren't too much of a threat anymore, he can instead proceed to tear them apart. Can't you honestly see the difference between a dedicated tank that can do nothing else than tank, and a character who can adjust their role on the fly between damage and control? Because that's exactly why I'm not a fan of holy trinity - dynamic roles give so much more challenge to the combat.
Edit: why weren't you mesmers snaring the foes? You have plenty of skills to cripple/evade/teleport/immobilize/knock back, you aren't just pure dps either, as you as well have many skills for controlling the distance between you and mobs.
Removing trinity, like what has been done with GW2 is a step back to like 1990. I'm glad developers are trying to innovate, but they've not selected the right features to change. Trinity gives needed structure.
Every mmo game in existence since the beginning has the trinity system and this system has been the standard since the 1990s..
Even TSW still uses the trinity system but offers up innovative flexibility to players and is imo the modern solution to trinity play..
GW2 is bold and innovative in every way it is the only true mmo alternative for those of us that are sick of the classic overworked 1990s trinity system..
I find this post ironic. Last night another mesmer and I tried to escort a Moa trainer to another place in a dynamic event. We kept dying. It was more frustrating (a lot more frustrating) than fun. Finally the other mesmer invited another player - a guardian. We breezed through the rest of event with no problem (well the guardian did die once). Why was it so easy? It was not due to the third player - it was because the Guardian tanked! While he kept the mobs focus we tore then up with dps. I say a resounding YES to the Trinity!
To me it sounds more like you had problems playing mesmers, they take a lot of skill to play well. Add someone that can tank (as good as you can in GW2) and things becomes a lot easier.
I play theif, I can take any damage and have to kite and run around a lot to live but once I got that right I rarely die (even when guardians are dying all around me). It is all about being able to play your class there. Now I wont give you any mesmer tips since I havn´t had the time to master it myself either.
Still, inderect tanking like you are talking about is a lot better than active tanking with taunts and crap, it really turn the game boring. GW2 doesn´t really have the trinity since a tougher player can distract the enemies in any game from Rainbow 6 to DOTA, that is not really trinity tanking.
A trinity tank taunts, can take loads of damage and do very little themselves. They suck.
Well said Loke. And yes, I'd say he needs some help as a mesmer, or is playing the wrong class. They are indeed one of the hardest classes to play well, and that's probably why I like them so much.
Funny thing is, playing a good mesmer in PvE is not a whole lot different than playing a good thief (a bad thief generally dies just as much as a bad mesmer, possibly even more frequently). It's all about knowing when to engage / pop in for some quick burst damage, and when to back out and kite for a bit. For mesmers making good use of illusions, clones, and snares is very important. I'd also recommend either having a blade+blade or blade+pistol combo as one of the weapon sets. The distortion skill is pretty nasty, and makes you evade a lot of incoming damage.
Every mmo game in existence since the beginning has the trinity system and this system has been the standard since the 1990s..
Even TSW still uses the trinity system but offers up innovative flexibility to players and is imo the modern solution to trinity play..
GW2 is bold and innovative in every way it is the only true mmo alternative for those of us that are sick of the classic overworked 1990s trinity system..
Not really, UO, SWG, Eve and many others didn´t use it.
But yeah, Meridian 59 invented it back in early 1996. Almost all MMOs have had the same old retarded AI since.
Well said Loke. And yes, I'd say he needs some help as a mesmer, or is playing the wrong class. They are indeed one of the hardest classes to play well, and that's probably why I like them so much.
Funny thing is, playing a good mesmer in PvE is not a whole lot different than playing a good thief (a bad thief generally dies just as much as a bad mesmer, possibly even more frequently). It's all about knowing when to engage / pop in for some quick burst damage, and when to back out and kite for a bit. For mesmers making good use of illusions, clones, and snares is very important. I'd also recommend either having a blade+blade or blade+pistol combo as one of the weapon sets. The distortion skill is pretty nasty, and makes you evade a lot of incoming damage.
I am sure it is but I had to leave many classes to after release. For some reason I just really like the thiefs use of initiative instead of cooldown and how you have to manage that resource or die.
But mesmers do seems really fun, I have teamed up with some good and they were excellent without any guardians or warriors.
Removing trinity, like what has been done with GW2 is a step back to like 1990. I'm glad developers are trying to innovate, but they've not selected the right features to change. Trinity gives needed structure.
And waisted time waitng froming a group, and boring gameplay consisting on watching the UI whacking moles as a healer, and watching threathmeters and so on.
Removing trinity is a BIG step forward. Look at hov accesable FPS games are, and what it means to be skilled in that genre. And tell me why MMO's could not move forward being inspired of that.
The holy trinity is the curse that have made MMO combat boring and make the genre stall since the 90'ties !
I never really had to wait long to form a group, and boring gameplay is an opinion. I didn't find the mindless running about and zerging in GW2 particularly enthralling.
A MMORPG is not and should not be like a FPS, the scope for skill is way higher in FPS games. In MMORPGs, GW2 included, most people play at a similar skill level, the range of skill is not that big due to the mechanics.
The holy trinity is a blessing that has given themepark MMOs depth since the 90s.
You miss the point - the Guardian did keep the aggro. Yes, he was not tanking in the strict dungeon sense, but that is not the point. The Guardian ACTED like a tank allowing us (the dps) to take out the mobs - something we (three) could not do if we just went dps. Can't you see the efficiency in this? This is why tanking was invented!
interestingly, either of those mesmers could have "ACTED like a tank" just as well..
chaining as necessary -- sword 2, pistol 5, staff 5/4, stun signet, dodge rolls, teleports, and clones.. mesmers can tank extremely well. and yes you can have all of this on one character.
but i've found thats true of most every class i've tried, if built and played a certain way they can be very hard to kill.
and thats the beauty of removing the trinity roles.. you put those roles back into the realm of "how you play the game" instead of "how the game was designed to be played" and that is always going to be better for me personally.
Lets not turn this into a "proGW-antiGW" flamewar. I merely used GW2 as an example due to its popularity and the lack of the trinity mechanic.
It's hard not to discuss GW2 as its also nearly the only exsample.
the arguments from ArenaNet about removing the trinity is of alot interest in this debate. Basicly they got inspired from FPS shooters and Moba games, and those genres is not based on Trinity.
The Question is if MMO's should be ? GW2 is daring to ask the question , the future will show if that set a new trend.
I advocate reading this article http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/ to understand the reasoning behing removing the "holy" part of the trinity. ( i do still argue that there is trinity roles in gw2, just not fixed).
the trinity doesn't lend itself to the type of pvp balance i enjoy.
What type of PVP balance do you enjoy then?
Because it's really hard to find a PVP game which doesn't involve a trinity of mitigation, recovery, and damage (LoL, TF2, SMNC, BF3, etc.)
I'm kinda with the OP in that GW2's homogenization of the roles (everyone mitigaties, recovers, and damages) tends to make for worse PVP. Roles, whatever they may be, make for better teamplay regardless of PVP or PVE.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If everyone can heal and insta-rez, then tactics aren't really required in boss fights anymore. Just rez them and they're back in the fight. It becomes an all-out dps race.
Once a player dies, they're removed from the boss's aggro list, so they can pour on the dps, because they're far behind the rest of the group in the aggro ranking. As long as everyone can tank some dmg, the recycling of corpses (battlefield rez) will keep everyone in the fight indefinitely. You almost can't lose, it might just take a long time.
This is ideal for a DE in GW2, which has the added benefit of not having a cap on the number of people that can join in. But as soon as you move to an instance or dungeon where there is a structured fight and a player limit, the "free-for-all" idea doesn't work anymore. There you have to have a battle plan, because it's a high pressure environment, often with very low tolerance for player error. Everybody needs to know what their role/task is in the fight, otherwise it devolves into a clusterfeck at lightspeed.
If there's no mechanism to direct and control a boss (i.e. aggro management), the encounter will become chaotic, and success will depend on random dice rolls. Nobody will do instances under those conditions.
Without the mechanisms that underlie the "holy trinity", we may as well remove instances and raids from MMO's as well.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
Nope removing the ROLE is just that,REMOVING the role,it does NOT give you a sense of a role.
I have seen the BEST effort in any game for Trinity and it was FFXI.The developer not only proved how VERSATILE you can make a Trinity system but still allowed for tons of improvement,all the while reamining true to a MMORPG.
You know why it worked in FFXI??SUB CLASS !
The sub-class design allowed versatility without going over the top and removing the defining role.A healer was still a helaer and a Tank was a still a tank,but with versatility,it allowed them to be so much more.
So a developer has the choice,put the EFFORT into the class design or just cop out and remove it.
Here is SIMPLE example>>>>This site MMORPG.com,each employee has a ROLE,do you think for one minute this site would work if nobody had a role or everyone assumed all roles?It definitely would not be a site praised for being organized would it?
Roles in gaming help keep things organized,ok your the puller,your the tank,your the healer everyone assumes a role and knows what they have to do.
You know what type of genre has no roles and very little depth ???ARCADE gaming,you know owhere you throw in 75 cents,get 3 minutes of fast paced fun,then game over.There is no time to have DEPTH in a Arcade game,it could not work,but a MMORPG most certainly cannot use that excuse.Developers have a lot of time and a LOT of money from the players to put the depth and effort into not only class design/roles but the entire game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If there's no mechanism to direct and control a boss (i.e. aggro management), the encounter will become chaotic, and success will depend on random dice rolls. Nobody will do instances under those conditions.
Without the mechanisms that underlie the "holy trinity", we may as well remove instances and raids from MMO's as well.
there are many ways in mmos to "direct and control" mobs with no taunt ie aggro management
-- stuns, knockbacks, snares, roots, interrupts, silence (if caster), fear
one of my stranger groups in Everquest was a group of 6 : one enchanter, 5 clerics
group was made like this because no tanks were available
the group had access to all the abilities i mentioned -- and no taunt, and we did fine dungeoning
I didn't get the memo the "Holy trinity" was vanishing. As far as I've seen, Gw2 is a fun game but its no where near 'christ levels' to be killing off that trinity. Besides, a lot of games go beyond the trinity and add in support to the mix which makes in more fun and end up spicing up the combo a bit.
Guildwars 2 is fun, but if it wasn't B2P, chances are people would probably not be sticking by it if it charged a monthly fee. As far as I see it the trinity will remain. Sure I can see more 'actiony' games coming out but in the end it will exist in some form or another even if it functions a bit different.
I find this post ironic. Last night another mesmer and I tried to escort a Moa trainer to another place in a dynamic event. We kept dying. It was more frustrating (a lot more frustrating) than fun. Finally the other mesmer invited another player - a guardian. We breezed through the rest of event with no problem (well the guardian did die once). Why was it so easy? It was not due to the third player - it was because the Guardian tanked! While he kept the mobs focus we tore then up with dps. I say a resounding YES to the Trinity!
To me it sounds more like you had problems playing mesmers, they take a lot of skill to play well. Add someone that can tank (as good as you can in GW2) and things becomes a lot easier.
I play theif, I can take any damage and have to kite and run around a lot to live but once I got that right I rarely die (even when guardians are dying all around me). It is all about being able to play your class there. Now I wont give you any mesmer tips since I havn´t had the time to master it myself either.
Still, inderect tanking like you are talking about is a lot better than active tanking with taunts and crap, it really turn the game boring. GW2 doesn´t really have the trinity since a tougher player can distract the enemies in any game from Rainbow 6 to DOTA, that is not really trinity tanking.
A trinity tank taunts, can take loads of damage and do very little themselves. They suck.
I had no trouble playing a thief in BWE2. I am not a "skilled" player but I was keeping up with the other mesmer who was doing pretty well.
Unlike you I admire tanks. I firmly believe that tanks are the hardest role to play. Why do you think that in every game it is hardest to find a good tank! I can see why you think that tanks would suck if you are a pvp player - they are so hard to kill. I don't think so. One of my favorite Alterac Valley episodes (of the hundreds that I played) I was Alliance and we were fighting a druid bear that had to have the top pvp gear. We had 10 players attacking him and with his gear and his skill (and he was SKILLED) we just could not bring him down. Finally we had EVERYONE on the Alliance team go after him. We lost the game but before it was over we took that druid down!
If we're doing tab-target with cooldowns and cast timers, I'm all for trinity. The alternative, while it looks good on paper - and the solo encounters can feel better - has not produced engaging group combat to me.
On the other hand, if we're going action combat (no, not like TERA, more like Planetside) with reticles and all, bring it on! Trinity doesn't make much sense there anyway.
If there's no mechanism to direct and control a boss (i.e. aggro management), the encounter will become chaotic, and success will depend on random dice rolls. Nobody will do instances under those conditions.
Without the mechanisms that underlie the "holy trinity", we may as well remove instances and raids from MMO's as well.
there are many ways in mmos to "direct and control" mobs with no taunt ie aggro management
-- stuns, knockbacks, snares, roots, interrupts, silence (if caster), fear
Mobs yes, bosses never.
Instance bosses are usually immune to any number of those effects. Those effects also typically raise your aggro ranking dramatically as well, so if you can't keep that boss permanently rooted, stunned, silenced, feared, etc., you will die very quickly.
I thought this thread would be filled with trinity hate, especially with GW2 right around the corner.
Some of the responses and arguments for trinity have been great. Very encouraging to see that there are lots of people on here who know what the hell they are talking about.
If there's no mechanism to direct and control a boss (i.e. aggro management), the encounter will become chaotic, and success will depend on random dice rolls. Nobody will do instances under those conditions.
Without the mechanisms that underlie the "holy trinity", we may as well remove instances and raids from MMO's as well.
there are many ways in mmos to "direct and control" mobs with no taunt ie aggro management
-- stuns, knockbacks, snares, roots, interrupts, silence (if caster), fear
Mobs yes, bosses never.
Instance bosses are usually immune to any number of those effects. Those effects also typically raise your aggro ranking dramatically as well, so if you can't keep that boss permanently rooted, stunned, silenced, feared, etc., you will die very quickly.
That is a hopeless plan.
dungeon bosses are not immune to *all* abilities, at least not in Everquest
yes some mobs were designed to be immune to CC like the Giants in EQ Velious expansion
but most dungeon nameds, in Everquest at least, could be briefly stunned
one ability that Enchanters had, Blurs, could memory wipe the bosses hate list
this opens doors for creativity when you have control over the bosses hate list
after futher thought, it all comes down to what mmo you play
Everquest allowed more combat options than WOW has
example: WOW has no need for slowing a mob or Mem wiping
-- if you have limited options of how to engage in an encounter, then I can see how taunt may be a requirement
I thought this thread would be filled with trinity hate, especially with GW2 right around the corner.
Some of the responses and arguments for trinity have been great. Very encouraging to see that there are lots of people on here who know what the hell they are talking about.
I completely agree, extremely constructive. Glad to see it tbh.
If there's no mechanism to direct and control a boss (i.e. aggro management), the encounter will become chaotic, and success will depend on random dice rolls. Nobody will do instances under those conditions.
Without the mechanisms that underlie the "holy trinity", we may as well remove instances and raids from MMO's as well.
there are many ways in mmos to "direct and control" mobs with no taunt ie aggro management
-- stuns, knockbacks, snares, roots, interrupts, silence (if caster), fear
Mobs yes, bosses never.
Instance bosses are usually immune to any number of those effects. Those effects also typically raise your aggro ranking dramatically as well, so if you can't keep that boss permanently rooted, stunned, silenced, feared, etc., you will die very quickly.
That is a hopeless plan.
dungeon bosses are not immune to *all* abilities, at least not in Everquest
yes some bosses were designed to be immune to CC like the Giants in EQ Velious expansion
but most dungeon bosses, in Everquest at least, could be briefly stunned
one ability that Enchanters had, Blurs, could memory wipe the bosses hate list
this opens doors for creativity when you have control over the bosses hate list
I have no doubt that you could complete some dungeons with a creative mix of classes. It would probably have gone quicker with a classic line-up, but you could do them.
There's a simple reason why the trinity is the most popular line-up for raiding, it's the most effective way to do the content in a reasonable time.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.
I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.
So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?
/Levi
GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just stupid-proofed it. Over this BWE I rolled a typical "tank" class, and my husband rolled a "healer" class and we leveled up then played with the mechanics a bit. Overwhelmingly mobs aggroed me when I had my trait points allocated into Toughness, regardless of what elementalist spec my husband was in. When I had them allocated into Strength, however, they didn't automatically aggro me as often.
We played with this extensively. With my points in Toughness and the Elementalist running water with lots of +healing on, my husband could nuke the mob while I stood there doing nothing and it would still attack ME. Dropping the mob to between a third and half life would pull it away if I didn't attack, but a single attack was enough to keep it on me the entire fight.
With points in Strength the mobs were less likely to auto aggro me and typically went after whoever dealt damage first or hit hardest. However, when my husband was healing, even when I did significantly less damage it stayed on me.
By hybridizing everything and working the aggro mechanics behind the scene, GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just hid it away. It's still there, you just don't have to work at it for it to work.
I have no doubt that you could complete some dungeons with a creative mix of classes. It would probably have gone quicker with a classic line-up, but you could do them.
There's a simple reason why the trinity is the most popular line-up for raiding, it's the most effective way to do the content in a reasonable time.
i cannot challenge that, at least not with my Everquest experiences
but I still believe it depends on what mmo you play -- not including multigroup bosses
Comments
You miss the point - the Guardian did keep the aggro. Yes, he was not tanking in the strict dungeon sense, but that is not the point. The Guardian ACTED like a tank allowing us (the dps) to take out the mobs - something we (three) could not do if we just went dps. Can't you see the efficiency in this? This is why tanking was invented!
Interesting idea, but consider this:
1) You are taking away freedom from a character. I don't think many people would like having their skills randomly determined by a dice roll.
2) What if the rolls sucked, and you had the worst healer w/ heal skills, the worst tank w/ tanking skills, and the worst dps on dps skills.. You would basically be forced to suicide a few times to reset back to what is already in place in a few MMOs.
Sorry, but imho it's not a very good design. It doesn't really solve any of the problems, and it creates a few new ones.
Instead, what I like to see is different kinds of support. You don't need to have 'who has the highest heals!' to have a support role. It's an old mechanic, based off of over-simplified combat mechanics. You can play a support role by mitigating how much damage your team recieves, or by shutting down the monster so he can't attack as often. What's great about this, is you can also spread these types of skills out across classes. So instead of having 1 dedicated 'i'm gunna chill back here and spam heals & barriers' class, every class is contributing and important.
It's great to have a skilled team that knows what they are doing, with the freedom to equip the tools needed to complete the task at hand. It puts more emphasis on player skill, and you don't really lose that feeling of significance. If you've ever been that guy that saves the team with a well timed barrier, or a last-ditch heal, those are still there. You just aren't tying up a group for a half hour while you are busy making a grilled cheese. They now have the option to wait for you, or you can say 'I know a guy that's also pretty good, you guys should roll w/ him since I'm busy'.
I really don't see the problem w/ that.
Please just stop the non-sense....The Trinity will out last GW2, if not convert it.
I can certainly see the efficiency in someone controlling mob movement and actions (not necessarily tanking), but I am still against Holy Trinity. When the guardian isn't helping these two mesmers by crippling and blocking some mobs, or when the mobs aren't too much of a threat anymore, he can instead proceed to tear them apart. Can't you honestly see the difference between a dedicated tank that can do nothing else than tank, and a character who can adjust their role on the fly between damage and control? Because that's exactly why I'm not a fan of holy trinity - dynamic roles give so much more challenge to the combat.
Edit: why weren't you mesmers snaring the foes? You have plenty of skills to cripple/evade/teleport/immobilize/knock back, you aren't just pure dps either, as you as well have many skills for controlling the distance between you and mobs.
Every mmo game in existence since the beginning has the trinity system and this system has been the standard since the 1990s..
Even TSW still uses the trinity system but offers up innovative flexibility to players and is imo the modern solution to trinity play..
GW2 is bold and innovative in every way it is the only true mmo alternative for those of us that are sick of the classic overworked 1990s trinity system..
Playing GW2..
Well said Loke. And yes, I'd say he needs some help as a mesmer, or is playing the wrong class. They are indeed one of the hardest classes to play well, and that's probably why I like them so much.
Funny thing is, playing a good mesmer in PvE is not a whole lot different than playing a good thief (a bad thief generally dies just as much as a bad mesmer, possibly even more frequently). It's all about knowing when to engage / pop in for some quick burst damage, and when to back out and kite for a bit. For mesmers making good use of illusions, clones, and snares is very important. I'd also recommend either having a blade+blade or blade+pistol combo as one of the weapon sets. The distortion skill is pretty nasty, and makes you evade a lot of incoming damage.
Not really, UO, SWG, Eve and many others didn´t use it.
But yeah, Meridian 59 invented it back in early 1996. Almost all MMOs have had the same old retarded AI since.
I am sure it is but I had to leave many classes to after release. For some reason I just really like the thiefs use of initiative instead of cooldown and how you have to manage that resource or die.
But mesmers do seems really fun, I have teamed up with some good and they were excellent without any guardians or warriors.
I never really had to wait long to form a group, and boring gameplay is an opinion. I didn't find the mindless running about and zerging in GW2 particularly enthralling.
A MMORPG is not and should not be like a FPS, the scope for skill is way higher in FPS games. In MMORPGs, GW2 included, most people play at a similar skill level, the range of skill is not that big due to the mechanics.
The holy trinity is a blessing that has given themepark MMOs depth since the 90s.
interestingly, either of those mesmers could have "ACTED like a tank" just as well..
chaining as necessary -- sword 2, pistol 5, staff 5/4, stun signet, dodge rolls, teleports, and clones.. mesmers can tank extremely well. and yes you can have all of this on one character.
but i've found thats true of most every class i've tried, if built and played a certain way they can be very hard to kill.
and thats the beauty of removing the trinity roles.. you put those roles back into the realm of "how you play the game" instead of "how the game was designed to be played" and that is always going to be better for me personally.
It's hard not to discuss GW2 as its also nearly the only exsample.
the arguments from ArenaNet about removing the trinity is of alot interest in this debate. Basicly they got inspired from FPS shooters and Moba games, and those genres is not based on Trinity.
The Question is if MMO's should be ? GW2 is daring to ask the question , the future will show if that set a new trend.
I advocate reading this article http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/ to understand the reasoning behing removing the "holy" part of the trinity. ( i do still argue that there is trinity roles in gw2, just not fixed).
What type of PVP balance do you enjoy then?
Because it's really hard to find a PVP game which doesn't involve a trinity of mitigation, recovery, and damage (LoL, TF2, SMNC, BF3, etc.)
I'm kinda with the OP in that GW2's homogenization of the roles (everyone mitigaties, recovers, and damages) tends to make for worse PVP. Roles, whatever they may be, make for better teamplay regardless of PVP or PVE.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If everyone can heal and insta-rez, then tactics aren't really required in boss fights anymore. Just rez them and they're back in the fight. It becomes an all-out dps race.
Once a player dies, they're removed from the boss's aggro list, so they can pour on the dps, because they're far behind the rest of the group in the aggro ranking. As long as everyone can tank some dmg, the recycling of corpses (battlefield rez) will keep everyone in the fight indefinitely. You almost can't lose, it might just take a long time.
This is ideal for a DE in GW2, which has the added benefit of not having a cap on the number of people that can join in. But as soon as you move to an instance or dungeon where there is a structured fight and a player limit, the "free-for-all" idea doesn't work anymore. There you have to have a battle plan, because it's a high pressure environment, often with very low tolerance for player error. Everybody needs to know what their role/task is in the fight, otherwise it devolves into a clusterfeck at lightspeed.
If there's no mechanism to direct and control a boss (i.e. aggro management), the encounter will become chaotic, and success will depend on random dice rolls. Nobody will do instances under those conditions.
Without the mechanisms that underlie the "holy trinity", we may as well remove instances and raids from MMO's as well.
Nope removing the ROLE is just that,REMOVING the role,it does NOT give you a sense of a role.
I have seen the BEST effort in any game for Trinity and it was FFXI.The developer not only proved how VERSATILE you can make a Trinity system but still allowed for tons of improvement,all the while reamining true to a MMORPG.
You know why it worked in FFXI??SUB CLASS !
The sub-class design allowed versatility without going over the top and removing the defining role.A healer was still a helaer and a Tank was a still a tank,but with versatility,it allowed them to be so much more.
So a developer has the choice,put the EFFORT into the class design or just cop out and remove it.
Here is SIMPLE example>>>>This site MMORPG.com,each employee has a ROLE,do you think for one minute this site would work if nobody had a role or everyone assumed all roles?It definitely would not be a site praised for being organized would it?
Roles in gaming help keep things organized,ok your the puller,your the tank,your the healer everyone assumes a role and knows what they have to do.
You know what type of genre has no roles and very little depth ???ARCADE gaming,you know owhere you throw in 75 cents,get 3 minutes of fast paced fun,then game over.There is no time to have DEPTH in a Arcade game,it could not work,but a MMORPG most certainly cannot use that excuse.Developers have a lot of time and a LOT of money from the players to put the depth and effort into not only class design/roles but the entire game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
there are many ways in mmos to "direct and control" mobs with no taunt ie aggro management
-- stuns, knockbacks, snares, roots, interrupts, silence (if caster), fear
one of my stranger groups in Everquest was a group of 6 : one enchanter, 5 clerics
group was made like this because no tanks were available
the group had access to all the abilities i mentioned -- and no taunt, and we did fine dungeoning
EQ2 fan sites
I didn't get the memo the "Holy trinity" was vanishing. As far as I've seen, Gw2 is a fun game but its no where near 'christ levels' to be killing off that trinity. Besides, a lot of games go beyond the trinity and add in support to the mix which makes in more fun and end up spicing up the combo a bit.
Guildwars 2 is fun, but if it wasn't B2P, chances are people would probably not be sticking by it if it charged a monthly fee. As far as I see it the trinity will remain. Sure I can see more 'actiony' games coming out but in the end it will exist in some form or another even if it functions a bit different.
I had no trouble playing a thief in BWE2. I am not a "skilled" player but I was keeping up with the other mesmer who was doing pretty well.
Unlike you I admire tanks. I firmly believe that tanks are the hardest role to play. Why do you think that in every game it is hardest to find a good tank! I can see why you think that tanks would suck if you are a pvp player - they are so hard to kill. I don't think so. One of my favorite Alterac Valley episodes (of the hundreds that I played) I was Alliance and we were fighting a druid bear that had to have the top pvp gear. We had 10 players attacking him and with his gear and his skill (and he was SKILLED) we just could not bring him down. Finally we had EVERYONE on the Alliance team go after him. We lost the game but before it was over we took that druid down!
If we're doing tab-target with cooldowns and cast timers, I'm all for trinity. The alternative, while it looks good on paper - and the solo encounters can feel better - has not produced engaging group combat to me.
On the other hand, if we're going action combat (no, not like TERA, more like Planetside) with reticles and all, bring it on! Trinity doesn't make much sense there anyway.
Mobs yes, bosses never.
Instance bosses are usually immune to any number of those effects. Those effects also typically raise your aggro ranking dramatically as well, so if you can't keep that boss permanently rooted, stunned, silenced, feared, etc., you will die very quickly.
That is a hopeless plan.
I thought this thread would be filled with trinity hate, especially with GW2 right around the corner.
Some of the responses and arguments for trinity have been great. Very encouraging to see that there are lots of people on here who know what the hell they are talking about.
dungeon bosses are not immune to *all* abilities, at least not in Everquest
yes some mobs were designed to be immune to CC like the Giants in EQ Velious expansion
but most dungeon nameds, in Everquest at least, could be briefly stunned
one ability that Enchanters had, Blurs, could memory wipe the bosses hate list
this opens doors for creativity when you have control over the bosses hate list
after futher thought, it all comes down to what mmo you play
Everquest allowed more combat options than WOW has
example: WOW has no need for slowing a mob or Mem wiping
-- if you have limited options of how to engage in an encounter, then I can see how taunt may be a requirement
EQ2 fan sites
I completely agree, extremely constructive. Glad to see it tbh.
I have no doubt that you could complete some dungeons with a creative mix of classes. It would probably have gone quicker with a classic line-up, but you could do them.
There's a simple reason why the trinity is the most popular line-up for raiding, it's the most effective way to do the content in a reasonable time.
GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just stupid-proofed it. Over this BWE I rolled a typical "tank" class, and my husband rolled a "healer" class and we leveled up then played with the mechanics a bit. Overwhelmingly mobs aggroed me when I had my trait points allocated into Toughness, regardless of what elementalist spec my husband was in. When I had them allocated into Strength, however, they didn't automatically aggro me as often.
We played with this extensively. With my points in Toughness and the Elementalist running water with lots of +healing on, my husband could nuke the mob while I stood there doing nothing and it would still attack ME. Dropping the mob to between a third and half life would pull it away if I didn't attack, but a single attack was enough to keep it on me the entire fight.
With points in Strength the mobs were less likely to auto aggro me and typically went after whoever dealt damage first or hit hardest. However, when my husband was healing, even when I did significantly less damage it stayed on me.
By hybridizing everything and working the aggro mechanics behind the scene, GW2 didn't do away with the trinity, they just hid it away. It's still there, you just don't have to work at it for it to work.
i cannot challenge that, at least not with my Everquest experiences
but I still believe it depends on what mmo you play -- not including multigroup bosses
EQ2 fan sites