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I finally understand the Pay to Win argument

DanitaKusorDanitaKusor AdelaidePosts: 549Member Uncommon

After spending a good portion of today in WvW I finally understand why people are saying this game is Play-to-win and I am starting to agree with that assertion.

My experience in WvW was limited money gain vs. high repair costs every time I died which was leaving most of the team naked because they couldn't afford to repair their armour when we were originally matched against a full server and got slaughtered every time we stepped outside the door.

Later after the matchups changed we were left with a better situtation and got some more people on the server after people were transferring off full servers because they couldn't get into WvW (my server never had a queue for any of the zones).  So we managed to take some castles and I made a bit of money from those captures, but still certainly not enough to buy siege weapons of any kind.  I had about 12silver when I finished, but needed to spend 10s of that on the manual to unlock traits, so a 2s profit from a full day of WvW.

Anyway, I went off to dinner and when I came back I found a new player had arrived in the zone on our side.  He had bought the commander title (now 100g), and had started laying out siege engines like candy with each battle, including golems which are 1g a piece.  He paid for every keep upgrade at our two main keeps leading up to Stonemist and put up arrow carts, cannons, mortars, and a trebuchet as defensive weapons. on the walls.

The end result was that although we were heavily outnumbered still vs. the blue server which was another full server we were able to smash through the walls of Stonemist several times and nearly took it.  When we were eventually driven back, the enemy players came into range out of newly fortified keeps and were slaughtered by the dozens and forced to retreat, even though they had larger numbers.  The fight was still going on when I logged off so I'm not sure where it will end.

The end result was through the actions of one player who was buying gems and changed them into gold (current rate is 50silver per 100gems), my server was able to move into second place and threaten the main keep in the Eternal Battlegrounds.

Now perhaps by the time people reach 80 we will be earning enough coin that this won't be an issue, but certainly as it stands in the beta at the moment the person willing to spend RL money on gems can make a huge difference to a server.  It's so much easier when every time you are assaulting a keep someone turns up with 2 rams and a ballista or a golem instead of trying to take the door down by hand.

I hadn't spent much time in WvW in previous beta but seeing this in action today it was a real eye opener. 

Edit: Fixed the title, that's what comes from lack of sleep.

The Enlightened take things Lightly

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Comments

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan EastPosts: 2,630Member

    You are low level... don't forget that. The money income at 80 will make what you can earn now insignificant.

    EDIT: just saw you mentionned that at the end of the post :)

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

    image

  • ictownictown iowa city, IAPosts: 123Member
    Originally posted by DanitaKusor

    After spending a good portion of today in WvW I finally understand why people are saying this game is Play-to-win and I am starting to agree with that assertion.

    My experience in WvW was limited money gain vs. high repair costs every time I died which was leaving most of the team naked because they couldn't afford to repair their armour when we were originally matched against a full server and got slaughtered every time we stepped outside the door.

    Later after the matchups changed we were left with a better situtation and got some more people on the server after people were transferring off full servers because they couldn't get into WvW (my server never had a queue for any of the zones).  So we managed to take some castles and I made a bit of money from those captures, but still certainly not enough to buy siege weapons of any kind.  I had about 12silver when I finished, but needed to spend 10s of that on the manual to unlock traits, so a 2s profit from a full day of WvW.

    Anyway, I went off to dinner and when I came back I found a new player had arrived in the zone on our side.  He had bought the commander title (now 100g), and had started laying out siege engines like candy with each battle, including golems which are 1g a piece.  He paid for every keep upgrade at our two main keeps leading up to Stonemist and put up arrow carts, cannons, mortars, and a trebuchet as defensive weapons. on the walls.

    The end result was that although we were heavily outnumbered still vs. the blue server which was another full server we were able to smash through the walls of Stonemist several times and nearly took it.  When we were eventually driven back, the enemy players came into range out of newly fortified keeps and were slaughtered by the dozens and forced to retreat, even though they had larger numbers.  The fight was still going on when I logged off so I'm not sure where it will end.

    The end result was through the actions of one player who was buying gems and changed them into gold (current rate is 50silver per 100gems), my server was able to move into second place and threaten the main keep in the Eternal Battlegrounds.

    Now perhaps by the time people reach 80 we will be earning enough coin that this won't be an issue, but certainly as it stands in the beta at the moment the person willing to spend RL money on gems can make a huge difference to a server.  It's so much easier when every time you are assaulting a keep someone turns up with 2 rams and a ballista or a golem instead of trying to take the door down by hand.

    I hadn't spent much time in WvW in previous beta but seeing this in action today it was a real eye opener. 

    I spent in pve and leveled up to 8 and I already earned 13 silver..and then I headed straight to WvWvW. I had no problems with money. Of course going through what you wen't through I didn't buy any siege weapons. Edit: its a wait and see

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member

    i don't see how this would be a big issue once people get some levels and decent amount of gold.. only reason this may be an issue now is no one is a decent level and able to get gold since the wipe.. give the game a week after launch and I bet you won't have an issue like this

    I also assume you meant "pay to win" since obviously you would need to "PLAY" to win:)

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • KalafaxKalafax Gainesville, FLPosts: 520Member Uncommon

    Firstly you really need to make your post say gold pay to win, cause people are going to think this has to do with RL cash pay to win, which is doesnt.

    If people have progressed further and accumulated more gold in game, naturally they are going to have a ass ton of more resources to draw from then you, its the penalty for joining at a low level, the flip side is you can still pvp, have fun, gain xp, and level in the pvp zones, but you are at a disadvantage, you should have expected it.

     

    All I hear is an awesome story where a small army was able to hold their own or prevail over a larger army because of better resources, sounds fair to me.

    Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  • Shroom_MageShroom_Mage Lafayette, LAPosts: 863Member
    Once everyone is 80 you'll be limited more by supply, and the gold costs will feel more like a money sink than a restriction.

    I do wish they'd change the cost of the commander title to medals, though. Gold doesn't demonstrate WvW experience at all, which means that any clown who farmed enough PvE (or bought enough gems), to pretend like he's some kind of leader.

    Also, don't forget that when someone does this sort of thing, it decreases the gold cost of gems, making it easier for everyone to buy more important things like character slots and bank tabs.

    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss

  • MechanismMechanism Toronto, ONPosts: 115Member Uncommon
    The money you earn in wvw is based on your level. If it goes up exponentially then i can't imagine anyone at 80 being unable to afford seige blueprints.
  • HalandirHalandir nnPosts: 758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dalgor

    Firstly you really need to make your post say gold pay to win

     

    Erm yeah - "Play" to win got me confused.... OP was an ok read though. Balanced view and not troll-like.

    Only interested in structured and might enjoy a few minutes of WvWvW here and there: Basically at max on my PvE char which seems fine anyway.

     

    We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
    (repeat ad infinitum)

  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob lexington, KYPosts: 871Member

    This is the kind of thing I could only see being meaningful the first week of the game's release, two weeks tops.

    Beyond that everyone's (well maybe not everyone, but lots of people on any WvWvW team) going to have more than enough money to fund all this stuff, supply will be the limiting factor instead.

  • Shroom_MageShroom_Mage Lafayette, LAPosts: 863Member


    Originally posted by Dalgor
    Firstly you really need to make your post say gold pay to win, cause people are going to think this has to do with RL cash pay to win, which is doesnt.If people have progressed further and accumulated more gold in game, naturally they are going to have a ass ton of more resources to draw from then you, its the penalty for joining at a low level, the flip side is you can still pvp, have fun, gain xp, and level in the pvp zones, but you are at a disadvantage, you should have expected it.All I hear is an awesome story where a small army was able to hold their own or prevail over a larger army because of better resources, sounds fair to me.

    Did you miss the part where you can buy gold with gems? It's obvious the guy with all that gold didn't farm hundreds of it in a couple hours unless he found some sort of exploit.

    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss

  • NaeviusNaevius Houston, TXPosts: 334Member Uncommon

    Unless there is some advantage that is only obtainable from RMT (gems) and not from gold, the 'pay to win' argument is still invalid.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Naevius

    Unless there is some advantage that is only obtainable from RMT (gems) and not from gold, the 'pay to win' argument is still invalid.

    Sorry but you can say the same thing for damn near 90% of the F2P mmos out there. Even if the chance is .00000000001% you can still get that cash shop item in game!

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • atticusbcatticusbc Burlington, VTPosts: 1,069Member
    yeah. you'll have enough money at later levels. at level 15 i had no issue with the cost. it's negligible.
  • elvenwolfelvenwolf RomePosts: 139Member

    Also, in this last beta weekend all the gems you buy are remboursed when the game start.

    So any gem that guy used for that WvWvW will be back the day the game start.

    Also as other have pointed out, when the game will be out, you'll see higher levels with quite a different kind of income from questing, at that point if you want to spend real money or grind for some gold will make no difference, the end result will be the same.

    If ever give an option to people that have more money then time to help the server to be equipped in PvP

     

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon

    Commander gives no advantage.

    Siege weapons cost gold and a asston of supply.

    For someone being able to spam siege weapons they also need supply, and that means they are kicking ass already.

    You don't even know if he bought those many gems himself or if other members of guild were pooling him.

    Still in the end, you didn't win. You performed better because you got leadership.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • hikaru77hikaru77 buenos airesPosts: 1,035Member Uncommon

    People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold  and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.  

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by hikaru77

    People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold  and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.  

    well considering every single MMO out has hundreds of sites for gold farmers you could say any single MMO is pay to win in that regard. Most people who say pay to win mean you can buy items that make you "stronger" than people who do not pay for items and those items are ONLY available to players who pay real money,  not that they can get stuff faster that is not pay to win.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • DakirnDakirn Kansas City, MOPosts: 374Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Commander gives no advantage.

    Siege weapons cost gold and a asston of supply.

    For someone being able to spam siege weapons they also need supply, and that means they are kicking ass already.

    You don't even know if he bought those many gems himself or if other members of guild were pooling him.

    Still in the end, you didn't win. You performed better because you got leadership.

    What if 2 people did it instead of 1?  3? 4? What is the cuttoff point before you consider this a possible problem?

     

    And the argument is "well just wait until people make money for themselves" is a bit moot.  If people are controlling WvWvW from the FIRST day of the game, getting the bonuses, reaping the rewards.. how much harder will it be for others to catch up?  Not only did they have a substantial head start but they were gaining profit in addition to YOUR profits.  You will NEVER catch up.

     

    If one person figured this out in the first day it was available to do others will do.  It's going to become pay-to-win very quickly.

     

    I was a bit upset at the pay-to-win potions ($2 for an hour of bonus XP or Magical Item Drop Rate boost?? Self rez stones.. etc) but after hearing this I'm even more concerned.

  • AerowynAerowyn BUZZARDS BAY, MAPosts: 7,928Member
    Originally posted by Dakirn
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Commander gives no advantage.

    Siege weapons cost gold and a asston of supply.

    For someone being able to spam siege weapons they also need supply, and that means they are kicking ass already.

    You don't even know if he bought those many gems himself or if other members of guild were pooling him.

    Still in the end, you didn't win. You performed better because you got leadership.

    What if 2 people did it instead of 1?  3? 4? What is the cuttoff point before you consider this a possible problem?

     

    And the argument is "well just wait until people make money for themselves" is a bit moot.  If people are controlling WvWvW from the FIRST day of the game, getting the bonuses, reaping the rewards.. how much harder will it be for others to catch up?  Not only did they have a substantial head start but they were gaining profit in addition to YOUR profits.  You will NEVER catch up.

     

    If one person figured this out in the first day it was available to do others will do.  It's going to become pay-to-win very quickly.

     

    I was a bit upset at the pay-to-win potions ($2 for an hour of bonus XP or Magical Item Drop Rate boost?? Self rez stones.. etc) but after hearing this I'm even more concerned.

    you do realise you don't fight the same realms all the time right? servers are matched based on rankings. So stronger worlds will get matched up vs other stronger worlds

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • JaggaSpikesJaggaSpikes LabinPosts: 421Member Uncommon

    doesn't gold come from player's actions only? it's not spawned by cash, but time invested. there is only so much gold to go around. WvW looks like gold sink to me.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,933Member Uncommon

    To me this is a balance issue. Right now you don´t earn enough in PvP and they need to up that unless they want PvP guilds to either buy gems or to have a PvE part that farms enough gold to keep the PvP going.

    But as I said, an easy balancing of the loot in PvP will fix it.

    Of course people who play both PvE and PvP wont get this problem anyways, there you get enough cash pretty soon.

  • Arachneus1Arachneus1 Naugatuck, CTPosts: 248Member

    There are so many things with this and most have been posted

    1. You won't fight the strong servers that do this if your server isn't equally matched.  It will be based on a ladder system so the winners fight the winners, 2nd places fight 2nd places, small servers fight small servers (assuming the dont keep winning).

    2. Lvl 80 everyone will be able to buy siege equipment like no tommorrow, sure gems will cost a lot more gold because of the high amount of gold everyone will have, but so what?  Gold has nothing to do when you need supply to upgrade or build the equipment.

    3. Magic item find potions?  at level 80 all equipment is on an equal power level.  stats may be different but all in all it will be the same +200 percision or +200 power or +200 vitality, those are your choices there won't be an item better than another.

    4.  Really all the cash shop items are for an early headstart.  Would you want your server to dominate early and then be paired with servers that are pvp heavy and full opf strategy/good players that are higher level than your small server?

  • Stx11Stx11 West Hills, CAPosts: 415Member
    Originally posted by Dakirn

    What if 2 people did it instead of 1?  3? 4? What is the cuttoff point before you consider this a possible problem?

     

    And the argument is "well just wait until people make money for themselves" is a bit moot.  If people are controlling WvWvW from the FIRST day of the game, getting the bonuses, reaping the rewards.. how much harder will it be for others to catch up?  Not only did they have a substantial head start but they were gaining profit in addition to YOUR profits.  You will NEVER catch up.

     

    If one person figured this out in the first day it was available to do others will do.  It's going to become pay-to-win very quickly.

     

    I was a bit upset at the pay-to-win potions ($2 for an hour of bonus XP or Magical Item Drop Rate boost?? Self rez stones.. etc) but after hearing this I'm even more concerned.

    Thanks for showing you don't know much about the game!

    All having Gold does is allow someone to buy Blueprints. It does nothing for Supply. It does nothing to allow you to build said Blueprints.

    And all those Siege Engines that the guy is throwing money at early on? Wiped after no more than 24 hours early after release (as that is their initial time for resetting WvW for more balanced matchups to specifically help combat this and similar problems during Launch) and no more than 2 weeks even later on.

    In a game that auto-levels you to 80 in WvW and provides EVERYTHING for free fully maxed-out in sPvP how are those potions "pay to win?" People are even down-leveled to match early content so being a higher level than everybody else doesn't really provide any "advantage" and definitely not any sustainable ones.

    I have no issue with people not liking the game. Sheer stupidity or misrepresentation of how the game works? Prepare to be flamed...

  • dageezadageeza london, KYPosts: 578Member

    As an avid fan of this game i also severely disagree with anet on charging repairs in PvP especially at low levels as it can break a lowbies financial back and be frustrating..

    It also makes it somewhat of a mistruth that you can level up to 80 in pvp alone from lvl 1..

    Anet seriously needs to rethink this one..

     

    Once a toon is over lvl 20 or so it doesnt really matter because you make more than enough silvers to cover costs but until then it can be rough on a pvp enthusiast that doesnt want to do PvE....

    Playing GW2..

  • lathaanlathaan viennaPosts: 475Member Uncommon

    i read: you were having fun thx to one guy spending cash. you dont like that.

    dont you think that, as in every other game, we will have TONS of cash a week after release and no one will care for if you bought it or played for it? bought gold doesnt stink, and 'rich' people will be on every server. if not, there will be even richer (gold-wise) people that just have more time and thus gain gold ingame. there is no way this can influence MY game-experience, and if - its a good influence (see your example).

  • DakirnDakirn Kansas City, MOPosts: 374Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Dakirn
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    Commander gives no advantage.

    Siege weapons cost gold and a asston of supply.

    For someone being able to spam siege weapons they also need supply, and that means they are kicking ass already.

    You don't even know if he bought those many gems himself or if other members of guild were pooling him.

    Still in the end, you didn't win. You performed better because you got leadership.

    What if 2 people did it instead of 1?  3? 4? What is the cuttoff point before you consider this a possible problem?

     

    And the argument is "well just wait until people make money for themselves" is a bit moot.  If people are controlling WvWvW from the FIRST day of the game, getting the bonuses, reaping the rewards.. how much harder will it be for others to catch up?  Not only did they have a substantial head start but they were gaining profit in addition to YOUR profits.  You will NEVER catch up.

     

    If one person figured this out in the first day it was available to do others will do.  It's going to become pay-to-win very quickly.

     

    I was a bit upset at the pay-to-win potions ($2 for an hour of bonus XP or Magical Item Drop Rate boost?? Self rez stones.. etc) but after hearing this I'm even more concerned.

    you do realise you don't fight the same realms all the time right? servers are matched based on rankings. So stronger worlds will get matched up vs other stronger worlds

    I do realize that.  But for those 2 weeks the other sides will be out gunned until the re-ranking happens.

     

    I voiced my concerns but if nobody else thinks it's a problem I guess we'll see at launch.  I'm a bit disappointed to see that every answer has a rebuttal of "When you're 80..." because I thought there were 79 other levels to the game.

     

    While +20% magic drop rate isn't going to help at level 80 it'll help the other 79 levels.  As someone who got far enough in the previous betas to actually GET magical equipment you can't say that the stats aren't important.  It's not the stats on magical gear that's important it's the PASSIVE magical effects that are slotted.  Things like running 20%+ faster, doing more damage, healing faster ARE important after your 20s.

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