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I guess its obvious by now : players want complexity

LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,063Member Uncommon

Games. Not all games , but multiplayer online games , must be complex in order to survive.

If I had penny for each : "Players want streamlined , acessible content" game theory ... that always results in poor content ridden boredom fest like SWTOR.

Yes. Its that easy. Players run out of things to do when they are not challenged enough.

 

Unfortunately only "complex" MMO games today are either rhutless PVP oriented (like EVE) or below todays standards (either too old or made by low budget indy developers)

 

When will developers understand this? Make a game that challenges player. That you have to research online. Ask people for help. Figure out things.

Not just grind on autopilot with straight line road ahead of you...

 

So far , no game is taking this challenge... Shame

 

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Comments

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    complex as in proper RPG mechanics and harsh penalties for doing things wrong.. lots of depth as well..

     

     

    but then again a lot of people want easy access with everything given to themm.

     

     

    We all like different things.

  • DarkPonyDarkPony RotterdamPosts: 5,566Member

    I hereby want to express that the OP's statement is fully endorsed, undersigned and welcomed by the Anti Hoofed Animal Defamation League.

    Dark Pony,

    AHADL spokesperson.

     

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Games. Not all games , but multiplayer online games , must be complex in order to survive.

    Ok, prove it.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,871Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    "Players want streamlined , acessible content" game theory ... that always results in poor content ridden boredom fest like SWTOR.

    This poor ridden boredom fest still have major market share with WoW in lead.


    When will minority of forum posters understand the blatantly obvious truth provided by undeniable facts?

  • odinsrathodinsrath louisville, KYPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    when will devs understand / see this....never! they see $$ signs could care less about anything else ..its why you see more n more mmorpgs soo sadly done and easy..some / most of the mmo's that had been released could easyly been put on a console with the "not so beefy grafix" and the easy mode they plop into their crap pile of a game ....+ alot of companys are still trying to bank on the WoW factor trying to strike it rich...they wont change their ways untill the sheep stop buying pretty boxes filled with the "new flavor of the month" and "dissapointment"

    image

  • DarkPonyDarkPony RotterdamPosts: 5,566Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Games. Not all games , but multiplayer online games , must be complex in order to survive.

    Ok, prove it.

    The lack of truly big success stories of easy mode, hand holding mmorpgs with cookie cutter themepark formula's should be plenty of evidence I reckon. (WOW arguably falls in that category and kills my statement but then again ... it's also kind of complex. As to really do well in WOW it requires a lot of organization and / or mastery).

    But personally I'd go a step further and say that any game that aims to hold a player's attention for a really long time, should be complex. Whether it is single or multiplayer, rts or rpg, etc.

  • xDayxxDayx St Charles, MOPosts: 712Member

    My name is xDayx. And I support this message.

  • FredomSekerZFredomSekerZ Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,156Member

    Maybe. A good indication would be TSW's Investigation Missions. The rest of the game is debatable, but these quests in particular have already sparked alot of hate and frustration threads.

    Also, i have a feeling many in-game are using spoliers just after 5 minutes of not figuring it out. Does that count as an example?

     

  • TezcatTezcat SleafordPosts: 76Member

    We just need a graphics update for UO. The game is still going but just needs modern polish to capture the new eneration.

    image
  • ExcessionExcession NottinghamPosts: 367Member Uncommon

    It does not matter if a game is complex or simple, people will still play it, and it will still be a success, as long as the game is FUN TO PLAY.

    The problem's start when Devs try to define what players as a whole will actually find to be fun to play.

    Ask 100 different players what they find fun, get just as many different answers.

    A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  • dllddlld GöteborgPosts: 542Member Uncommon

    I wouldn't say CoD and WoW are shining examples of complexity but they are shining examples of survivability.

    I don't think your theory is very solid.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DarkPony
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Games. Not all games , but multiplayer online games , must be complex in order to survive.

    Ok, prove it.

    The lack of truly big success stories of easy mode, hand holding mmorpgs with cookie cutter themepark formula's should be plenty of evidence I reckon. (WOW arguably falls in that category and kills my statement but then again ... it's also kind of complex. As to really do well in WOW it requires a lot of organization and / or mastery).

    But personally I'd go a step further and say that any game that aims to hold a player's attention for a really long time, should be complex. Whether it is single or multiplayer, rts or rpg, etc.

    But I'm really starting to think that long term player retention of a large number of subscribers isn't the real goal of most MMO's developed today, they the being designed to be "consumed" in a short period of time and discarded, much like the single player titles they are all starting to resemble.

    I will say that complexity in design is something "I" desire in my MMORPG's, but I'm thinking from the popularirty of LOL and other Dota type titles, (and current MMORPG's for that matter) that the greater market place doesn't share in my taste.

    So yes, complex design filled with the proper amount of timesinks is what is needed for long term subscription retention, but I just am not sure that's the goal anymore.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • comrademariocomrademario LondonPosts: 98Member

    I personally agree with you, but I honestly think you're wrong.

     

    Most players I've encountered want a challenge that will take them 2-3 goes to complete and they want that repeated as they progress. Modern gamers don't think along the same lines of old school gamers. Imagine a modern gamer getting stuck on that friggin platform above the dog Spellbound Dizzy for hours and days as they reset back to the start each time that piece of garbage dog gets them? (Yes I may have smashed my C64 off a wall at that point). Or on any number of puzzles and platforms in older games? They'd quit within the first 10 goes.

     

    Gaming has changed and evolved, it's now so mainstream that it has to cater to the mainstream audience, and they don't like challenges that make them feel useless and frustrated.

     

    I actually miss the obscene rage gaming used to give me :(

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,941Member Uncommon

    Longevity is tough to achieve.  It's even tougher to achieve when longevity isn't a priority for the dev / publisher.

     

    Some games are just quick cash grabs.  If it's dieing off in six months doesn't matter if you've already stuffed millions in the bank account, which was the plan from the very beginning.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • RoyalPhunkRoyalPhunk Vancouver, BCPosts: 174Member
    Originally posted by Byrhofen

    It does not matter if a game is complex or simple, people will still play it, and it will still be a success, as long as the game is FUN TO PLAY.The problem's start when Devs try to define what players as a whole will actually find to be fun to play.Ask 100 different players what they find fun, get just as many different answers.

     

    This x 1000
  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member
    Originally posted by DarkPony

    I hereby want to express that the OP's statement is fully endorsed, undersigned and welcomed by the Anti Hoofed Animal Defamation League.

    Dark Pony,

    AHADL spokesperson.

     

    Yet when I, and others, said the same thing almost a year ago in protect of SWTOR you were sharply against said notion.

     

    What changed DarkPony :I?

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • mklinicmklinic Pottstown, PAPosts: 1,435Member Uncommon

    This could just as well say people want "deep" gameplay. Someone else made this analogy in another thread (which I could give proper credit, but can't recall who/when it was posted), but chess has pretty simple rules, but deep gameplay. A game does not neccessarily have to be complicated, but instead, make the systems that are there more meaingful.

    For example (purely anecdotal) If I am playing EvE, I don't think to myself "man, I love how overly complicated some of these interfaces are. The way parts of the game manages to get in the way of itself at times really makes this a five star title in my book". No, instead, I admire how the conflict in one region affects the market in another. I like how the ships/weapons/etc that I made are used by other players to achieve their goals. I enjoy how the systems, be they simple or complicated, work together within the game to provide that "deep gameplay". I felt the same in SWG. It wasn't that the systems were overly complicated, but how the interdependance was there and encouraged deeper gameplay, or maybe the oft-used term heard by CCP staff "emergent gameplay" is really what I'm getting at.

    Now, I'm sure my overly generic comments on EvE can be disputed, but hopefully the overall point came across. At any rate, it seems like some of the current titles have confused accessible with disposable.

    -mklinic

    "There's a point I think we're missing.
    It's in the air we raise our fists in."
    -from Behind Closed Doors by Rise Against

  • FadedbombFadedbomb Aiken, SCPosts: 2,081Member
    Originally posted by RoyalPhunk
    Originally posted by Byrhofen

    It does not matter if a game is complex or simple, people will still play it, and it will still be a success, as long as the game is FUN TO PLAY.

    The problem's start when Devs try to define what players as a whole will actually find to be fun to play.

    Ask 100 different players what they find fun, get just as many different answers.

     

    This x 1000

    SWG was fun pre-cu, and even in the CU it was decent, but above all else it was fun BECAUSE it was complex. Yet, SWG's developers (and ip holder, LucasArts) got greedy when they saw WoW's success, and started catering to the vocal minority while the vast majority were too busy actually playing the wonderful product they had (albeit riddled with bugs that they continued to ignore all the way through the CU, and NGE).

     

    I don't think it's as simple as saying "Complex MMO = Success" as I think it also requires a developer willing to not fork customers over with piss poor business decisions.

    The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
    Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  • MrlogicMrlogic Posts: 178Member

    I completely agree with the op, I don't know how many times I've been puking all over the dumbed down MMOs of today here on the forum. The shining example is WoW, look at the learning curve... granted its for kids but the learning curve is more flat than anything. I say bring back the complexity we had in Anarchy Online etc!

  • vladwwvladww La provencePosts: 416Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    Longevity is tough to achieve.  It's even tougher to achieve when longevity isn't a priority for the dev / publisher.

     

    Some games are just quick cash grabs.  If it's dieing off in six months doesn't matter if you've already stuffed millions in the bank account, which was the plan from the very beginning.

    Eve & UWO achieved longevity

    No current theme park copycats can compare to these 2 diamonds

    ****************************
    Playing : Uncharted Waters Online
    ****************************

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Tezcat

    We just need a graphics update for UO. The game is still going but just needs modern polish to capture the new eneration.

    Nah .. we don't need an update to old ideas. I thought people want innovation instead of cloning the past.

  • DarkPonyDarkPony RotterdamPosts: 5,566Member
    Originally posted by Fadedbomb
    Originally posted by DarkPony

    I hereby want to express that the OP's statement is fully endorsed, undersigned and welcomed by the Anti Hoofed Animal Defamation League.

    Dark Pony,

    AHADL spokesperson.

     

    Yet when I, and others, said the same thing almost a year ago in protect of SWTOR you were sharply against said notion.

     

    What changed DarkPony :I?

    For the love of everything that is sacred to you, myself or anyone else, I don't think that I ever opposed a similar statement or said that games are better off dumbed down with shallow learning curves or whatever. You are welcome to dig it up but I'm pretty sure that's an effort in futility.

    I might have defended SWTOR by trying to point out things in which I thought it could end up being complex (or complex enough) back in the theorycrafting, post launch days, but the notion that games are more fun in the long run if they challenge you with complexity is something I never have and never will oppose, Faded.

     

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Tezcat

    We just need a graphics update for UO. The game is still going but just needs modern polish to capture the new eneration.

    Nah .. we don't need an update to old ideas. I thought people want innovation instead of cloning the past.

    I knew the poster child for "anti-complexity" would show up here soon, welcome to the discussion.  image

    <En Garde>

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member

    A large number of players, and of people on this site, do not want complexity, they want fast fun and feeling good.

    Another large number claims that they want complexity and that game XYZ has this - although the game is easy mode, casual and convenient and can be solo-ed while watching TV.

    Another large number claims that they want this but they buy every AAA MMORPG anyway.

    Thus why should studios/publishers change anything? The current games sell by the millions because all these large numbers of players mentioned above buy them.

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • DarkPonyDarkPony RotterdamPosts: 5,566Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Tezcat

    We just need a graphics update for UO. The game is still going but just needs modern polish to capture the new eneration.

    Nah .. we don't need an update to old ideas. I thought people want innovation instead of cloning the past.

    I knew the poster child for "anti-complexity" would show up here soon, welcome to the discussion.  image

    lol :)

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