The most social games iver played had to be Conquer Online and Eudemons Online, mainly because these games are all about getting as strong as possible, and thats a very high limit, and lots of gridning, so being social was an important aspect.
I find that social interaction gets less depending on a games number of quests, games without em people tend to talk alot
I play games to co-op with others in dungeon adventures, designed and implemented by professional devs. 99.9% of user generated content is crap.
There's an entire genre of games for that. Diablo, Torchlight, all that stuff.
MMOs are about massive numbers of people, simulated social worlds.
Yeh, and i played DIablo 3, TL, and all those games. *But* if MMO is going in this direction, and i like it, why shouldn't i play MMOs too. The beauty is i have total control over how i play a game. If i want to play WOW like Diablo 3, i can and i will.
MMOs are becoming lobby co-op games. Are you disputing that? It is certainly more and more about small group, MP content and also soloable content. It may not what you want, but clearly it is what very many MMOs are about.
Becoming? I'd have to say they pretty much are already there, more so now than ever in the genre's history. So much so it's probably fair to say they aren't MMORPG's anymore, but rather some new genre, say the MMOARPG (A for Action)
But to bastardize what Tony Stark recently said, "If we can't save the MMORPG genre, at least we can Avenge it!"
Well, you can call it what you like, although i highly doubt the common usage "MMORPG" will change.
Avenge it? How?
Avenger is a great movie ... but you are not tony stark.
Hey now, I'm just as good looking (just ask my wife) just not nearly as rich. (ask the IRS)
As for avenging it, expect me and others like me to relentlessly hammer away at these and other forums until one day we elicit some change.
They told Gandhi™ there was no use in asking the British to go home, and look how that turned out.
edit: I'll stop now, there's moderators walking the earth, don't want to anger them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The difference is in the goals, which directly affects the type of interaction. If the goal of the players is to play with others, they will interact. If the goal is to get a specific rank, xp, item, etc then the others are just a tool to reach that end. Forcing random people together to reach a desirable end has never really proven to foster interaction or community beyond the group or guild unit. However, when players choose to band together, interaction and community expands beyond the group and guild unit.
From what I have read and experienced personally is that humans perfer to work together on a collective goal where their indivdual efforts get recongized. This gives people a deeper statisfcation then working solo or hanging out together socially but with no goal in mind.
I don't think anyone has questioned that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The most social games iver played had to be Conquer Online and Eudemons Online, mainly because these games are all about getting as strong as possible, and thats a very high limit, and lots of gridning, so being social was an important aspect.
I find that social interaction gets less depending on a games number of quests, games without em people tend to talk alot
I don't think it's the number of quests as it is the way they are linear and tiered in most MMOs. For example, in AC, most quests can be done by anyone at any level and they are all repeatable. 'I already did that one' or 'I'm on the next step of that chain' is not an issue there so you don't have that arbitrary social divide like you have in most mainstream MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The difference is in the goals, which directly affects the type of interaction. If the goal of the players is to play with others, they will interact. If the goal is to get a specific rank, xp, item, etc then the others are just a tool to reach that end. Forcing random people together to reach a desirable end has never really proven to foster interaction or community beyond the group or guild unit. However, when players choose to band together, interaction and community expands beyond the group and guild unit.
From what I have read and experienced personally is that humans perfer to work together on a collective goal where their indivdual efforts get recongized. This gives people a deeper statisfcation then working solo or hanging out together socially but with no goal in mind.
I don't think anyone has questioned that.
what I am getting at is that social for the sake of social will not work in any context. It just leads to a drunked stuper eventually.
People need a common goal for the socialization to really work, otherwise one is better off just hanging out in the bar.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I don't, the people who pioneered the genres did. Why are RPGs about stats and skills and leveling up?
Use even a pinch of logic here.
If people don't like mutliplayer... but do like going through dungeons and getting loot... why would they play a massively multiplayer game? If they played something like Torchlight instead they'd be rewarded with a MUCH cheaper product, a more focused and polished experience, better combat, and better dungeons.
The only thing I can think of is the idea that people like to show off the loot they get.
They could only do so for the games they created, definitions change all the time and clearly, the modern-day MMO industry does not use the definition you prefer.
Use even a pinch of logic here.
And MMOs happen to be huge, they have a lot more content than single-player games and that content is expanded on regularly. They can be played for a lot longer than a single-player game because of it. Also, if you want to play with other people, or talk to other people, they are there. As for Torchlight, no thanks. I don't want to play an isometric game, but how much cheaper can you get than free? MMOs offer that.
I'm also 100% against dickwaving in any game, I don't want to see the "cool stuff" youv'e got and I'm sure not running around to show off mine. I just don't care. I just want to play the game.
The difference is in the goals, which directly affects the type of interaction. If the goal of the players is to play with others, they will interact. If the goal is to get a specific rank, xp, item, etc then the others are just a tool to reach that end. Forcing random people together to reach a desirable end has never really proven to foster interaction or community beyond the group or guild unit. However, when players choose to band together, interaction and community expands beyond the group and guild unit.
From what I have read and experienced personally is that humans perfer to work together on a collective goal where their indivdual efforts get recongized. This gives people a deeper statisfcation then working solo or hanging out together socially but with no goal in mind.
You are talking about WORK. Entertainment does not have to be the same. You can give the illusion of work together by putting a player in a scripted environment where there are NPC teammates who recognize the heroes contribution. That trick is used in games EVERY DAY.
I play games to co-op with others in dungeon adventures, designed and implemented by professional devs. 99.9% of user generated content is crap.
There's an entire genre of games for that. Diablo, Torchlight, all that stuff.
MMOs are about massive numbers of people, simulated social worlds.
Yeh, and i played DIablo 3, TL, and all those games. *But* if MMO is going in this direction, and i like it, why shouldn't i play MMOs too. The beauty is i have total control over how i play a game. If i want to play WOW like Diablo 3, i can and i will.
MMOs are becoming lobby co-op games. Are you disputing that? It is certainly more and more about small group, MP content and also soloable content. It may not what you want, but clearly it is what very many MMOs are about.
Becoming? I'd have to say they pretty much are already there, more so now than ever in the genre's history. So much so it's probably fair to say they aren't MMORPG's anymore, but rather some new genre, say the MMOARPG (A for Action)
But to bastardize what Tony Stark recently said, "If we can't save the MMORPG genre, at least we can Avenge it!"
Well, you can call it what you like, although i highly doubt the common usage "MMORPG" will change.
Avenge it? How?
Avenger is a great movie ... but you are not tony stark.
Hey now, I'm just as good looking (just ask my wife) just not nearly as rich. (ask the IRS)
As for avenging it, expect me and others like me to relentlessly hammer away at these and other forums until one day we elicit some change.
They told Gandhi™ there was no use in asking the British to go home, and look how that turned out.
edit: I'll stop now, there's moderators walking the earth, don't want to anger them.
LOL .. that would have a very bad ROI. You really think hammering at forums will elicit change? You know how an internet forum works, right?
And even if there is some change, how is that "avenging" anything?
As far as Gandhi goes .. the British is in the very minority in India. You think you have a majority on your side? If you do, the market would have already responded.
I play games to co-op with others in dungeon adventures, designed and implemented by professional devs. 99.9% of user generated content is crap.
There's an entire genre of games for that. Diablo, Torchlight, all that stuff.
MMOs are about massive numbers of people, simulated social worlds.
Yeh, and i played DIablo 3, TL, and all those games. *But* if MMO is going in this direction, and i like it, why shouldn't i play MMOs too. The beauty is i have total control over how i play a game. If i want to play WOW like Diablo 3, i can and i will.
MMOs are becoming lobby co-op games. Are you disputing that? It is certainly more and more about small group, MP content and also soloable content. It may not what you want, but clearly it is what very many MMOs are about.
Becoming? I'd have to say they pretty much are already there, more so now than ever in the genre's history. So much so it's probably fair to say they aren't MMORPG's anymore, but rather some new genre, say the MMOARPG (A for Action)
But to bastardize what Tony Stark recently said, "If we can't save the MMORPG genre, at least we can Avenge it!"
Well, you can call it what you like, although i highly doubt the common usage "MMORPG" will change.
Avenge it? How?
Avenger is a great movie ... but you are not tony stark.
Hey now, I'm just as good looking (just ask my wife) just not nearly as rich. (ask the IRS)
As for avenging it, expect me and others like me to relentlessly hammer away at these and other forums until one day we elicit some change.
They told Gandhi™ there was no use in asking the British to go home, and look how that turned out.
edit: I'll stop now, there's moderators walking the earth, don't want to anger them.
LOL .. that would have a very bad ROI. You really think hammering at forums will elicit change? You know how an internet forum works, right?
And even if there is some change, how is that "avenging" anything?
As far as Gandhi goes .. the British is in the very minority in India. You think you have a majority on your side? If you do, the market would have already responded.
Were you aware that marketers who work for the developers data mine forums? Majority is not necessary, only growing trend to get noticed and reported.
Yes, and that British minority RULED the Indian sub-contenent for a few hundred years. Until that peace-nick Gandhi forced them out.
Finally, there seems to be quite a few who seem to believe that innovation comes from major studios. Sure, major studios have lots of cash to drop on deveopment, but they also must get that cost back plus turn a profit. Bold innovation doesn't always even give a return on investment, much less profit. Therefore the major studios will only continue crank out what is currently successful. Meaning little to no real innovation, only a re-hash of what came before. Being snobbish about indie developers: "they aren't spending mega millions on development, so they aren't worth my time" is EXACTLY what led to the current lack of diversity among mmo's.
The current crop of games is largely geared towards the "rush to level cap" players who get to cap in 2-3 days, then complan about lack of content. To a player like that "social" content is a guild wars system, a "marrage" system for buffs/exp bonus, and a "dungeon raid" system so they can more effeciently grind. Any new game "must have" these "features" or it's a "flop".
The difference is in the goals, which directly affects the type of interaction. If the goal of the players is to play with others, they will interact. If the goal is to get a specific rank, xp, item, etc then the others are just a tool to reach that end. Forcing random people together to reach a desirable end has never really proven to foster interaction or community beyond the group or guild unit. However, when players choose to band together, interaction and community expands beyond the group and guild unit.
From what I have read and experienced personally is that humans perfer to work together on a collective goal where their indivdual efforts get recongized. This gives people a deeper statisfcation then working solo or hanging out together socially but with no goal in mind.
I don't think anyone has questioned that.
what I am getting at is that social for the sake of social will not work in any context. It just leads to a drunked stuper eventually.
People need a common goal for the socialization to really work, otherwise one is better off just hanging out in the bar.
Furcadia, Sociolotron, Muxlim, Kaneva... any graphical chat channel... If you need some kind of arbitrary common goal in order to interact with others, you're doing it wrong. Personal progression in a persistent world, be it play or character, seems a necessity, but other than that, socialiation and interaction is dependent on common interest, not common task.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When there is no need or requirement to socialize, no one will socialize.
My experience that required me to socialize is FFXI, and that was trying to socialize through Language Barriers. Was it tedious, yes, but it added to my experience when we pull off attacks and figured out how to talk to each other. For those who doesn't know, FFXI requires you to be groups to advance.
Its human nature to take the easy way out, when the tools are there but without a need to use them, Personally I tend to do what is easiest for me at my convenience.
Until some Developers takes the chance and decided to make an game where you have to talk and form Guilds, and groups to advance or face Solo Challenges where everything is extra hard but doable. This will never change.
When you can advance to the top ranks Solo, I can say almost 100% will do so, because it will be the most convenient.
I would say that FFXI community is more tight nit than most, probably because they have to rely on eachother to get the job done. But it is also the most harsh, mainly because everyone would know if you are skillful or not and if you are a NOOB or not.
I truly believe games are being too friendly, they are no longer taking chances like they used to.
Humans are social creatures, we just need a reason to do it.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
When there is no need or requirement to socialize, no one will socialize.
You're talking about forced socializing, that's not a voluntary thing. The only thing you'll do is drive players away from the game. People who want to socialize will socialize no matter how the game is set up. People who do not want to socialize will not socialize no matter how the game is set up.
Way back in the day, when most people who played these games were nerds, socializing was easy, everyone had something in common. You could always find someone to talk about the latest movies or TV shows or comics. I don't know if I was ever in a group where every single person in the group couldn't quote Monty Python and the Holy Grail from memory.
That's just not the kind of world we live in now and it's never coming back.
I used to sit in the square on Anarchy Online and craft for people for free, for hours and hours at a time. You want something made? Bring me the materials and I'll do it. You want a buff? Swing by and I'll give it to you. No cost. It started out great, I'd get to chat with people all day long. Then the population started to change, people started acting like I *OWED* them free stuff. They stopped asking and started demanding. I stopped doing.
Same with groups. Instead of being a fun experience, people stopped caring about anyone else. Grouping was all about using others to get your own loot. You need something? You need help? Get a group together, use them so long as they're useful, then bail. Making grouping mandatory isn't going to change the group experience.
Like it or not, you cannot force people to be the kind of people you want them to be. The kind of socializing that we had back in UO and EQ is gone forever and there is nothing you, or anyone else, can do to bring it back.
At first people where forced to be social. Now it's just an option people opt. out on more often than not.
Maybe the average gamer doesn't really want to be social since MMOs have evolved into what they are today. After all if they wanted to be social they would be out with friends and families having fun instead of being couped up in a basement, infront of a PC turning a lighter shade of pale.
If you really think about it, it was a natural progression
The "new" MMORPG features lobby based competitive and cooperative meta-games combined with SP storyline quest driven soloing.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
When there is no need or requirement to socialize, no one will socialize.
You're talking about forced socializing, that's not a voluntary thing. The only thing you'll do is drive players away from the game. People who want to socialize will socialize no matter how the game is set up. People who do not want to socialize will not socialize no matter how the game is set up.
Way back in the day, when most people who played these games were nerds, socializing was easy, everyone had something in common. You could always find someone to talk about the latest movies or TV shows or comics. I don't know if I was ever in a group where every single person in the group couldn't quote Monty Python and the Holy Grail from memory.
That's just not the kind of world we live in now and it's never coming back.
I used to sit in the square on Anarchy Online and craft for people for free, for hours and hours at a time. You want something made? Bring me the materials and I'll do it. You want a buff? Swing by and I'll give it to you. No cost. It started out great, I'd get to chat with people all day long. Then the population started to change, people started acting like I *OWED* them free stuff. They stopped asking and started demanding. I stopped doing.
Same with groups. Instead of being a fun experience, people stopped caring about anyone else. Grouping was all about using others to get your own loot. You need something? You need help? Get a group together, use them so long as they're useful, then bail. Making grouping mandatory isn't going to change the group experience.
Like it or not, you cannot force people to be the kind of people you want them to be. The kind of socializing that we had back in UO and EQ is gone forever and there is nothing you, or anyone else, can do to bring it back.
Well said.
Luc, it sounds like you weren't around for the pre-WOW MMOs. Hanging out and socializing at a player venue or popular meeting place was commonplace in earlier MMOs. Cephus was spot on in that the earlier players had a lot more in common, but the earlier games also made it easier for players to divide into likeminded communities. This is essential for both community building and socializing. It is unrealistic to look for meaningful interaction in General Chat, but when you give the players the tools to divide into interest/culture-based sub-groups, amazing things happen.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When there is no need or requirement to socialize, no one will socialize.
My experience that required me to socialize is FFXI, and that was trying to socialize through Language Barriers. Was it tedious, yes, but it added to my experience when we pull off attacks and figured out how to talk to each other. For those who doesn't know, FFXI requires you to be groups to advance.
Its human nature to take the easy way out, when the tools are there but without a need to use them, Personally I tend to do what is easiest for me at my convenience.
Until some Developers takes the chance and decided to make an game where you have to talk and form Guilds, and groups to advance or face Solo Challenges where everything is extra hard but doable. This will never change.
When you can advance to the top ranks Solo, I can say almost 100% will do so, because it will be the most convenient.
I would say that FFXI community is more tight nit than most, probably because they have to rely on eachother to get the job done. But it is also the most harsh, mainly because everyone would know if you are skillful or not and if you are a NOOB or not.
I truly believe games are being too friendly, they are no longer taking chances like they used to.
Humans are social creatures, we just need a reason to do it.
None of that has to do with socializing. Your problem there is you, not the game. You have not once expressed in this thread a genuine interest in making new friends or meeting new people, only in having tools to force others to play with you to reach a certain goal. Your entire argument has consistently been a solo/group issue, with little, if anything, to do with wanting to actually talk to another human being, only to need them to progress in the game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In games where people are encouraged to play/interact/react to others (the point of MMOs more or less), it will attract more social people. The more social people together in one place creates a lasting community that attracts more and more social people. The end result is a social game where finding groups and friendly players is easy.
Making a game that actively discourages socializing and grouping... will result in people that like those two things, not playing. Thus, while there is nothing stopping you from going out of your way to find friends, the game doesnt' encourage it, and so the playerbase that exists in that game will be largely anti social.
What kind of social phobe needs people FORCED into meeting him?
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I cannot for the life of me find an MMO that is social at all. Sure you have guilds, but EVERY freaking MMO has content that is all soloable besides rading and dungeons. It's a joke.
Nothing has changed.
Asherons Call was the same way. So was Anarchy Online...so was Ultima Online...the Realm...Meridian 59.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by KyleranOriginally posted by nariusseldonDon't care about social aspects.I play games to co-op with others in dungeon adventures, designed and implemented by professional devs. 99.9% of user generated content is crap. Social in a game should consist of cooperating and fighting together. I don't want to share my life stories with strangers on the net.
So basically, you want to play a "game". MMORPG's were much more than that at one time, not so much any more.So you're also the poster child of anti-socialization as well, very good sir. A poster of many talents it would seem. edit: Remember what Will Rogers said, ""A stranger is just a friend I haven't met yet." Of course i want to play a GAME. I already have a life, i don't need a second one.
Oh, i have made friends online in games like WOW & Diablo 3 .. but that is not the focus of the GAME.
This is where the disconnect happens i think, I would speculate that mmorpgs were created by nerds, for nerds. people that really spent a lot of time in game looking to socialise with others.
I remember a time before the internet when i would hang out at home and play my single player rpg's because i loved them, then when the internet came i was so very happy i could interact with many other ppl like me that loved rpgs in a large virtual worlds.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Before that guy people were nice to each other. Parents working 160 hrs a week to pay bills let this dude raise their kids and he raised a generation of trolls. The troll generation thinks it's popular to coherse kids into committing suicide. I wonder if the troll generation will grow up, have kids, and said kids will rebel by being nice.
Luc, it sounds like you weren't around for the pre-WOW MMOs. Hanging out and socializing at a player venue or popular meeting place was commonplace in earlier MMOs. Cephus was spot on in that the earlier players had a lot more in common, but the earlier games also made it easier for players to divide into likeminded communities. This is essential for both community building and socializing. It is unrealistic to look for meaningful interaction in General Chat, but when you give the players the tools to divide into interest/culture-based sub-groups, amazing things happen.
I don't really buy that though. The fact is, the old games, where everyone came from a very small number of demographics, you could find something in common with 99.9% of the people on the server at any time of the day or night. They were almost all nerds. Just about anyone you ran into, you could have a conversation with. Today that's just not the case. No matter what group you fall into, you have something in common with maybe 5% of the people on the server. Finding them is extremely difficult at best. Now sure, if you fragment the server into all of the various and sundry cliques, you can find people who like the things you do, but you're going to have a bunch of tiny communities that wany nothing to do with each other and there just won't be enough people in any individual clique on at any one time to fill the grouping desires of people online. So what do people do? Play with people they don't want to play with, or solo because they can't find anyone who wants to do what they want to do?
The fact remains, the kind of cohesive communities that existed with UO are gone forever, are never coming back and it's pointless to try to force them to exist when they just don't. MMOs and their community have changed forever. We either need to deal with the current reality or go find something else to do.
Before that guy people were nice to each other. Parents working 100 hrs a week to pay bills let this dude raise their kids and he raised a generation of trolls. The troll generation thinks it's popular to coherse kids into committing suicide. I wonder if the troll generation will grow up, have kids, and said kids will rebel by being nice.
there have been cruel people and bullies through out all of human history. stop deluding yourself that this is a modern trend. we are aware of more because of the media (which then generates copycats). also there are more humans on this planet now than in all of recorded history. of course there are more bullies, there are more people!
generally, bully parents tend to have bully kids and nice parents tend to have nice kids. why? kids learn primarily from their parents and siblings. in other words: whatever kind of parent your father was, that's the kind of father you'll be. sure you'll do some things differently but for the most part you learned how to be a father from your father. not from jerry springer, captain kangaroo, or homer simpson.
back on topic:
as has been pointed out most modern games require very little in the way of partying up to complete most of the game. the problem is if you do solo most of the game, it takes you much longer to level, and thus longer to reach the end game. people who are social by nature will party up even when it isn't neccessary because it's more fun and more efficient to do as a group. social hermits will only party up when absolutely neccessary. that's just the way it is, forceing people to party up to do everything will only lead to a less diverse community as the social hermits will find some other game where they can play the way they are most comfortable playing.
Comments
The most social games iver played had to be Conquer Online and Eudemons Online, mainly because these games are all about getting as strong as possible, and thats a very high limit, and lots of gridning, so being social was an important aspect.
I find that social interaction gets less depending on a games number of quests, games without em people tend to talk alot
Hey now, I'm just as good looking (just ask my wife)
just not nearly as rich. (ask the IRS) 
As for avenging it, expect me and others like me to relentlessly hammer away at these and other forums until one day we elicit some change.
They told Gandhi™ there was no use in asking the British to go home, and look how that turned out.
edit: I'll stop now, there's moderators walking the earth, don't want to anger them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't think anyone has questioned that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't think it's the number of quests as it is the way they are linear and tiered in most MMOs. For example, in AC, most quests can be done by anyone at any level and they are all repeatable. 'I already did that one' or 'I'm on the next step of that chain' is not an issue there so you don't have that arbitrary social divide like you have in most mainstream MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
what I am getting at is that social for the sake of social will not work in any context. It just leads to a drunked stuper eventually.
People need a common goal for the socialization to really work, otherwise one is better off just hanging out in the bar.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
They could only do so for the games they created, definitions change all the time and clearly, the modern-day MMO industry does not use the definition you prefer.
Use even a pinch of logic here.
And MMOs happen to be huge, they have a lot more content than single-player games and that content is expanded on regularly. They can be played for a lot longer than a single-player game because of it. Also, if you want to play with other people, or talk to other people, they are there. As for Torchlight, no thanks. I don't want to play an isometric game, but how much cheaper can you get than free? MMOs offer that.
I'm also 100% against dickwaving in any game, I don't want to see the "cool stuff" youv'e got and I'm sure not running around to show off mine. I just don't care. I just want to play the game.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
MMORPG used to be Contents too hard to tackle Solo in an regular RPG, brings like minded players together to beat the contents.
now
MMORPG = Solo RPG but with Chats
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
You are talking about WORK. Entertainment does not have to be the same. You can give the illusion of work together by putting a player in a scripted environment where there are NPC teammates who recognize the heroes contribution. That trick is used in games EVERY DAY.
LOL .. that would have a very bad ROI. You really think hammering at forums will elicit change? You know how an internet forum works, right?
And even if there is some change, how is that "avenging" anything?
As far as Gandhi goes .. the British is in the very minority in India. You think you have a majority on your side? If you do, the market would have already responded.
Were you aware that marketers who work for the developers data mine forums? Majority is not necessary, only growing trend to get noticed and reported.
Yes, and that British minority RULED the Indian sub-contenent for a few hundred years. Until that peace-nick Gandhi forced them out.
Finally, there seems to be quite a few who seem to believe that innovation comes from major studios. Sure, major studios have lots of cash to drop on deveopment, but they also must get that cost back plus turn a profit. Bold innovation doesn't always even give a return on investment, much less profit. Therefore the major studios will only continue crank out what is currently successful. Meaning little to no real innovation, only a re-hash of what came before. Being snobbish about indie developers: "they aren't spending mega millions on development, so they aren't worth my time" is EXACTLY what led to the current lack of diversity among mmo's.
The current crop of games is largely geared towards the "rush to level cap" players who get to cap in 2-3 days, then complan about lack of content. To a player like that "social" content is a guild wars system, a "marrage" system for buffs/exp bonus, and a "dungeon raid" system so they can more effeciently grind. Any new game "must have" these "features" or it's a "flop".
Furcadia, Sociolotron, Muxlim, Kaneva... any graphical chat channel... If you need some kind of arbitrary common goal in order to interact with others, you're doing it wrong. Personal progression in a persistent world, be it play or character, seems a necessity, but other than that, socialiation and interaction is dependent on common interest, not common task.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When there is no need or requirement to socialize, no one will socialize.
My experience that required me to socialize is FFXI, and that was trying to socialize through Language Barriers. Was it tedious, yes, but it added to my experience when we pull off attacks and figured out how to talk to each other. For those who doesn't know, FFXI requires you to be groups to advance.
Its human nature to take the easy way out, when the tools are there but without a need to use them, Personally I tend to do what is easiest for me at my convenience.
Until some Developers takes the chance and decided to make an game where you have to talk and form Guilds, and groups to advance or face Solo Challenges where everything is extra hard but doable. This will never change.
When you can advance to the top ranks Solo, I can say almost 100% will do so, because it will be the most convenient.
I would say that FFXI community is more tight nit than most, probably because they have to rely on eachother to get the job done. But it is also the most harsh, mainly because everyone would know if you are skillful or not and if you are a NOOB or not.
I truly believe games are being too friendly, they are no longer taking chances like they used to.
Humans are social creatures, we just need a reason to do it.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
You're talking about forced socializing, that's not a voluntary thing. The only thing you'll do is drive players away from the game. People who want to socialize will socialize no matter how the game is set up. People who do not want to socialize will not socialize no matter how the game is set up.
Way back in the day, when most people who played these games were nerds, socializing was easy, everyone had something in common. You could always find someone to talk about the latest movies or TV shows or comics. I don't know if I was ever in a group where every single person in the group couldn't quote Monty Python and the Holy Grail from memory.
That's just not the kind of world we live in now and it's never coming back.
I used to sit in the square on Anarchy Online and craft for people for free, for hours and hours at a time. You want something made? Bring me the materials and I'll do it. You want a buff? Swing by and I'll give it to you. No cost. It started out great, I'd get to chat with people all day long. Then the population started to change, people started acting like I *OWED* them free stuff. They stopped asking and started demanding. I stopped doing.
Same with groups. Instead of being a fun experience, people stopped caring about anyone else. Grouping was all about using others to get your own loot. You need something? You need help? Get a group together, use them so long as they're useful, then bail. Making grouping mandatory isn't going to change the group experience.
Like it or not, you cannot force people to be the kind of people you want them to be. The kind of socializing that we had back in UO and EQ is gone forever and there is nothing you, or anyone else, can do to bring it back.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
At first people where forced to be social. Now it's just an option people opt. out on more often than not.
Maybe the average gamer doesn't really want to be social since MMOs have evolved into what they are today. After all if they wanted to be social they would be out with friends and families having fun instead of being couped up in a basement, infront of a PC turning a lighter shade of pale.
If you really think about it, it was a natural progression
The genre was repackaged for mass appeal.
The "new" MMORPG features lobby based competitive and cooperative meta-games combined with SP storyline quest driven soloing.
I get my online social fix from Second Life. Its great for those who enjoy lots of variety and good music.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Well said.
Luc, it sounds like you weren't around for the pre-WOW MMOs. Hanging out and socializing at a player venue or popular meeting place was commonplace in earlier MMOs. Cephus was spot on in that the earlier players had a lot more in common, but the earlier games also made it easier for players to divide into likeminded communities. This is essential for both community building and socializing. It is unrealistic to look for meaningful interaction in General Chat, but when you give the players the tools to divide into interest/culture-based sub-groups, amazing things happen.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
None of that has to do with socializing. Your problem there is you, not the game. You have not once expressed in this thread a genuine interest in making new friends or meeting new people, only in having tools to force others to play with you to reach a certain goal. Your entire argument has consistently been a solo/group issue, with little, if anything, to do with wanting to actually talk to another human being, only to need them to progress in the game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You guys are missing a pretty big distinction.
In games where people are encouraged to play/interact/react to others (the point of MMOs more or less), it will attract more social people. The more social people together in one place creates a lasting community that attracts more and more social people. The end result is a social game where finding groups and friendly players is easy.
Making a game that actively discourages socializing and grouping... will result in people that like those two things, not playing. Thus, while there is nothing stopping you from going out of your way to find friends, the game doesnt' encourage it, and so the playerbase that exists in that game will be largely anti social.
What kind of social phobe needs people FORCED into meeting him?
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Nothing has changed.
Asherons Call was the same way. So was Anarchy Online...so was Ultima Online...the Realm...Meridian 59.
Nothing has changed...but you whining about it.
Of course i want to play a GAME. I already have a life, i don't need a second one.
Oh, i have made friends online in games like WOW & Diablo 3 .. but that is not the focus of the GAME.
This is where the disconnect happens i think, I would speculate that mmorpgs were created by nerds, for nerds. people that really spent a lot of time in game looking to socialise with others.
I remember a time before the internet when i would hang out at home and play my single player rpg's because i loved them, then when the internet came i was so very happy i could interact with many other ppl like me that loved rpgs in a large virtual worlds.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
This is what happened:
Before that guy people were nice to each other. Parents working 160 hrs a week to pay bills let this dude raise their kids and he raised a generation of trolls. The troll generation thinks it's popular to coherse kids into committing suicide. I wonder if the troll generation will grow up, have kids, and said kids will rebel by being nice.
I don't really buy that though. The fact is, the old games, where everyone came from a very small number of demographics, you could find something in common with 99.9% of the people on the server at any time of the day or night. They were almost all nerds. Just about anyone you ran into, you could have a conversation with. Today that's just not the case. No matter what group you fall into, you have something in common with maybe 5% of the people on the server. Finding them is extremely difficult at best. Now sure, if you fragment the server into all of the various and sundry cliques, you can find people who like the things you do, but you're going to have a bunch of tiny communities that wany nothing to do with each other and there just won't be enough people in any individual clique on at any one time to fill the grouping desires of people online. So what do people do? Play with people they don't want to play with, or solo because they can't find anyone who wants to do what they want to do?
The fact remains, the kind of cohesive communities that existed with UO are gone forever, are never coming back and it's pointless to try to force them to exist when they just don't. MMOs and their community have changed forever. We either need to deal with the current reality or go find something else to do.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
there have been cruel people and bullies through out all of human history. stop deluding yourself that this is a modern trend. we are aware of more because of the media (which then generates copycats). also there are more humans on this planet now than in all of recorded history. of course there are more bullies, there are more people!
generally, bully parents tend to have bully kids and nice parents tend to have nice kids. why? kids learn primarily from their parents and siblings. in other words: whatever kind of parent your father was, that's the kind of father you'll be. sure you'll do some things differently but for the most part you learned how to be a father from your father. not from jerry springer, captain kangaroo, or homer simpson.
back on topic:
as has been pointed out most modern games require very little in the way of partying up to complete most of the game. the problem is if you do solo most of the game, it takes you much longer to level, and thus longer to reach the end game. people who are social by nature will party up even when it isn't neccessary because it's more fun and more efficient to do as a group. social hermits will only party up when absolutely neccessary. that's just the way it is, forceing people to party up to do everything will only lead to a less diverse community as the social hermits will find some other game where they can play the way they are most comfortable playing.