"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Much of the discussion I've seen of late has hinged on either problems with SWTOR, or problems with the population.
It was perhaps inevitable given the approach taken nearing release of "throwing people at the problem".
All I'm hoping is that any employees would have foreseen this to some extent and prepared to the best of their ability....'tis not a good time to be out of work (barring decent reserves of capital or assured income etc.)
As The Secret World is story-focussed in a similar-ish way to SWTOR, I wonder what effect TSW will have on SWTOR subs. (For me, TSW is more immersive than SWTOR. Now playing TSW for a little while, and I find it much more entertainingthan I'd given it credit for in my earlier posts - I guess I just dislike Mr Sonnac and a couple of others!)
But they need to concentrate on what makes them different (4th pillar, STORY). There are alot of games out there that do WoW better than they can, WoW comes to mind ;D.
I just dont see a way for them to move forward unless they do.
Also do you think it would be that easy to just pull the plug on the project? I would think both sides would have some type of say, even if George owns the IP.
As long as they do the story right, that sounds good...but why an MMO? Why not go for KOTOR 3 or the like? I guess the obvious answer is that at least a moderate success with SWTOR + subs was anticipated to pull in more cash than a single-player game, and that some members of the dev team were over-optimistic re what they could deliver.
The real question IMIO is why someone mainly interested in an immersive, story-oriented game for solo play would sub over the long term to an MMO if story is what they want. Would there not be better options? I guess the lack of KOTOR 3 would be felt by some, esp. Star Wars fans, so I guess I can understand. After all, it is Star Wars.
Re pulling the plug, I can't see why they would. Financially, most of the costs are sunk. I imagine that a rationalisation of staff and ongoing costs etc. would allow it to be decently profitable. Sunk costs also tend to gather a psychological commitment that isn't easy to shake...one need only look at various housing markets for examples of this.
I really wanted this game to succeed. Every month seems to bring worse and worse news for SW:TOR. BioWare's hubris if finally catching up to them.
I really think this game needs radical changes, something akin to the Final Fantasy XIV do-over.
As for me, I don't foresee myself resubbing for a single planet worth of new content that can be burned through in a weekend and a trash, waste of development time Legacy system that should never have had even one second spent on it.
How are you going to get 16 main character voice actors (one for each class/gender) to commit to fully voicing new content every 6 to 12 months? Answer? You can't. This game's content will never be updated fast enough, never. All the money in the world would not achieve that.
It's the arrogance of the BioWare Austin devs that makes this tragedy bittersweet. Enjoy your full voice-acting, jackasses.
I have to be honest, when you release a single player game... You get rid of the development team because everything is done... Time to sell the box and reorganize another development team if you have an expansion pack plan or something like that... Otherwise next game, or bye bye people... We are done here...
SWTOR also feels like like a single player game in some aspects... So people just played the game and they are done with it... not to mention all the other games in the market pulling people away from the game...
They really need to take the F2P route if they want to survive a little... I mean it...!!!! or do what Warhammer 40K online did... Scrap the MMO idea and build up a nice game with multiplayer features...
But they need to concentrate on what makes them different (4th pillar, STORY). There are alot of games out there that do WoW better than they can, WoW comes to mind ;D.
I just dont see a way for them to move forward unless they do.
Also do you think it would be that easy to just pull the plug on the project? I would think both sides would have some type of say, even if George owns the IP.
As long as they do the story right, that sounds good...but why an MMO? Why not go for KOTOR 3 or the like? I guess the obvious answer is that at least a moderate success with SWTOR + subs was anticipated to pull in more cash than a single-player game, and that some members of the dev team were over-optimistic re what they could deliver.
The real question IMIO is why someone mainly interested in an immersive, story-oriented game for solo play would sub over the long term to an MMO if story is what they want. Would there not be better options? I guess the lack of KOTOR 3 would be felt by some, esp. Star Wars fans, so I guess I can understand. After all, it is Star Wars.
Re pulling the plug, I can't see why they would. Financially, most of the costs are sunk. I imagine that a rationalisation of staff and ongoing costs etc. would allow it to be decently profitable. Sunk costs also tend to gather a psychological commitment that isn't easy to shake...one need only look at various housing markets for examples of this.
But Why An MMO:
Sadly that is what we got, I was just thinking of a way they could salvage the situation. Sadly it may be past that point now. Dammit I wanted this game to do well.
I may be flayed alive for saying this but I would pay a sub if the story was good. Right now the game is a solofest to 50 anyway.
Instead of firing the workers who only did what they were told by the leadership, it is the leadership (Daniel Erickson) that should be fired. I will cheer for the firing of the leadership (who are ultimately responsible for SWTOR's debacle), but I can't cheer when everyday workers lose their jobs.
That's the sad part, the people that need to be fired are still employed and the people that just did their jobs and had no say in decisions are being let go.
Welcome to Corporate America, home of the golden parachute, This is pretty much how we roll in USA.
Rich people Rule !
It's actually the model of the world. This is only a microcosmic example. It's not even unique to the US, sadly.
For example, who is it that makes wars? And who is it that actually lives in or gets sent "in harm's way"? It has ever been that way always and everywhere, but the level of it has not quite been so apparent. People refuse to see how fucked up this model really is and prefer sticking their heads in the sand. As Kurt Vonnegut observed, "so it goes."
In the weeks ahead, we will announce plans for growing The Old Republic with new content, new players and new ways to play.
If I were a betting woman, I would say they make the announcement of the F2P model or "New Ways to Play" before August 31st. Week of Guild Wars 2 release and last day of the work week. We shall see.
you guys gotta realize the game can do perfectly and EA is still going to lay off. You guys gotta look at the big picture EA buys studios , merges them , lies to said studio and then butchers them and merges them. Mythic entertainment was a thriving studio and perfectly fine until mark jacobs signed the deal with the devil and over the course of warhammers lifespam more and more were laid off or working in austin with bioware. A smart man or woman will see it happening again soon , EA is already getting buddy buddy with Funcom and if they are stupid enough to go to bed with EA then it will be them next. EA does not care about the quality of their games they care about how much profit they will make . Go look around and see if any of the top dogs in EA play video games. Regardless of how well SWTOR does in the future this wont be the last of the layoffs by a mile. Why hire more devs when you can scare them by job layoffs and have them work longer hours and do the work of two? Your talking about peoples lives here and seriously shareholders need to start dumping stock based around moronic companies that love to ruins peoples lives.
I remember the moment I started hating him was in that video where he attempted to defend their "space system" and poke fun at SWG's.
What a worthless sack of crap, he is.
and Ohlen, they just wouldn't listen to feedback in beta at all
Rich Vogel today. Erickson and Oheln tomorrow. They can't fire them all at once. It would look too much like a chainsaw massacre at the end of a cheap slasher flick.
Anyone who made big decisions on TOR should be fired. They had a chance at greatness and screwed up big time. I would get fresh heads in there and people who have a CLUE about what makes an MMO fun to start making decisions, not these idiots. Although its a little late now, GW2 is out in 5 weeks so meh.
One day , some academic should do a study about how the hysterical and abusive overhyping of the game by both the paid and unpaid fanbois of this game actually created a large body of ordinary subscribers to critique this game.
Don't feel bad for what is happening. These are people making alot of money that did not listen to anyone but themselves. Sorry but accountability needs to be brought to the mmo genre when things go bad. No more excuses.
Anyway, in the article is this quote from EA "In the weeks ahead, we will announce plans for growing The Old Republic with new content, new players and new ways to play."
"New ways to play" sounds like F2P?
That doesn't sound like anything. "New ways to play" could mean they want to add sandbox content, cross server group finders or basically anything.
*shudder*
Echoes of the famous "NGE" perhaps ?
I'd not wish that on any game and it's fans...
Mr Lucas earns nothing substantial unless EA can turn a good profit here. BUT Mr Lucas does own the IP. What might the clauses in that licence contract be ? How much pressure can LA put on EA/Bioware ?
There was a thread on this forum months ago talking about what SWTOR needs and I am going to steal from thread:
SWTOR needs a Reverse -NGE. Yes that is right, a reverse-NGE. It's a very complicated procedure, only a handful of people in the world could accomplish such a thing. Just take everything bad about the WoWification of the NGE and reverse it--introduce sandbox elements, open the game world up, give players freedom to use their brains.
It's a novel concept and is never going to happen, but still funny to think about
Some might find it funny but in a way you are totally right.
Anyway, in the article is this quote from EA "In the weeks ahead, we will announce plans for growing The Old Republic with new content, new players and new ways to play."
"New ways to play" sounds like F2P?
That doesn't sound like anything. "New ways to play" could mean they want to add sandbox content, cross server group finders or basically anything.
*shudder*
Echoes of the famous "NGE" perhaps ?
I'd not wish that on any game and it's fans...
Mr Lucas earns nothing substantial unless EA can turn a good profit here. BUT Mr Lucas does own the IP. What might the clauses in that licence contract be ? How much pressure can LA put on EA/Bioware ?
Have you a source for: "Mr Lucas earns nothing substantial" . I keep seeing people saying LA get nothing until SW pays for itself but that simply isn't the way licence deals work - nor would LA simply hand EA a blank cheque. (Made a profit yet? Sorry just paid JR $10M consultancy fee).
When EA were asked in feb' to comment about what they paid EA it was all 'no comment' - in response I think to earlier comments from Activision's boss Bobby Kotick that EA would struggle to make money from SWTOR because they would be paying LA.
The way licence deals work I would expect LA to get paid a substantial sum regardless (Bobby Kotick sure did). The question really is what risk-reward scenario did EA / LA agree. Do EA simply pay LA for X years use of the IP - with EA keeping any and all profit; or a sum based on sales and/or subs retained - reflecting the strength of the IP?
If you have a definitive source that would be good (I know analysts expected LA to get a third but again EA didn't comment).
"As with the launch of any MMO, the size and skillset of the teams needed to maintain the game is different than the ones that built it."
Surely the people who built the game and were not needed to maintain it will have been moved ... shortly after the game launched maybe? I would have thought that anyone being let go 7 months after launch was a "maintainer".
This bit was funny as well: " currently staffed to ensure the continued delivery of new, high quality game content for The Old Republic, and at a more frequent cadence." So as they are getting rid of people does that mean they are moving to a lower frequency? Or maybe they are letting people go to move to a higher frequency of releases!
Comments
The hype sure was good though.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Colour me unsurprised...
Much of the discussion I've seen of late has hinged on either problems with SWTOR, or problems with the population.
It was perhaps inevitable given the approach taken nearing release of "throwing people at the problem".
All I'm hoping is that any employees would have foreseen this to some extent and prepared to the best of their ability....'tis not a good time to be out of work (barring decent reserves of capital or assured income etc.)
As The Secret World is story-focussed in a similar-ish way to SWTOR, I wonder what effect TSW will have on SWTOR subs. (For me, TSW is more immersive than SWTOR. Now playing TSW for a little while, and I find it much more entertainingthan I'd given it credit for in my earlier posts - I guess I just dislike Mr Sonnac and a couple of others!)
And yet somehow there are STILL some super-fanboys that are acting as if there is NOTHING wrong.
-Mods-
There are currently two active threads about this subject (one from a news piece on this site)- Any way for a possible merge please?
Thanks.
EDIT- I just think this is pretty major- Normally I couldcare, but I want to discuss this and not repeat myself in two places
As long as they do the story right, that sounds good...but why an MMO? Why not go for KOTOR 3 or the like? I guess the obvious answer is that at least a moderate success with SWTOR + subs was anticipated to pull in more cash than a single-player game, and that some members of the dev team were over-optimistic re what they could deliver.
The real question IMIO is why someone mainly interested in an immersive, story-oriented game for solo play would sub over the long term to an MMO if story is what they want. Would there not be better options? I guess the lack of KOTOR 3 would be felt by some, esp. Star Wars fans, so I guess I can understand. After all, it is Star Wars.
Re pulling the plug, I can't see why they would. Financially, most of the costs are sunk. I imagine that a rationalisation of staff and ongoing costs etc. would allow it to be decently profitable. Sunk costs also tend to gather a psychological commitment that isn't easy to shake...one need only look at various housing markets for examples of this.
I really wanted this game to succeed. Every month seems to bring worse and worse news for SW:TOR. BioWare's hubris if finally catching up to them.
I really think this game needs radical changes, something akin to the Final Fantasy XIV do-over.
As for me, I don't foresee myself resubbing for a single planet worth of new content that can be burned through in a weekend and a trash, waste of development time Legacy system that should never have had even one second spent on it.
How are you going to get 16 main character voice actors (one for each class/gender) to commit to fully voicing new content every 6 to 12 months? Answer? You can't. This game's content will never be updated fast enough, never. All the money in the world would not achieve that.
It's the arrogance of the BioWare Austin devs that makes this tragedy bittersweet. Enjoy your full voice-acting, jackasses.
----------
Life sucks, buy a helmet.
I have to be honest, when you release a single player game... You get rid of the development team because everything is done... Time to sell the box and reorganize another development team if you have an expansion pack plan or something like that... Otherwise next game, or bye bye people... We are done here...
SWTOR also feels like like a single player game in some aspects... So people just played the game and they are done with it... not to mention all the other games in the market pulling people away from the game...
They really need to take the F2P route if they want to survive a little... I mean it...!!!! or do what Warhammer 40K online did... Scrap the MMO idea and build up a nice game with multiplayer features...
Here's what you get when you don't give a f*ck about beta feedbacks.
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
According to their statement, the layoffs are basically the final phase of what happend in may, not new layoffs.
But Why An MMO:
Sadly that is what we got, I was just thinking of a way they could salvage the situation. Sadly it may be past that point now. Dammit I wanted this game to do well.
I may be flayed alive for saying this but I would pay a sub if the story was good. Right now the game is a solofest to 50 anyway.
p.s : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/341041
***** Before hitting that reply button, please READ the WHOLE thread you're about to post in *****
It's actually the model of the world. This is only a microcosmic example. It's not even unique to the US, sadly.
For example, who is it that makes wars? And who is it that actually lives in or gets sent "in harm's way"? It has ever been that way always and everywhere, but the level of it has not quite been so apparent. People refuse to see how fucked up this model really is and prefer sticking their heads in the sand. As Kurt Vonnegut observed, "so it goes."
That last sentence from the Massively article:
In the weeks ahead, we will announce plans for growing The Old Republic with new content, new players and new ways to play.
If I were a betting woman, I would say they make the announcement of the F2P model or "New Ways to Play" before August 31st. Week of Guild Wars 2 release and last day of the work week. We shall see.
you guys gotta realize the game can do perfectly and EA is still going to lay off. You guys gotta look at the big picture EA buys studios , merges them , lies to said studio and then butchers them and merges them. Mythic entertainment was a thriving studio and perfectly fine until mark jacobs signed the deal with the devil and over the course of warhammers lifespam more and more were laid off or working in austin with bioware. A smart man or woman will see it happening again soon , EA is already getting buddy buddy with Funcom and if they are stupid enough to go to bed with EA then it will be them next. EA does not care about the quality of their games they care about how much profit they will make . Go look around and see if any of the top dogs in EA play video games. Regardless of how well SWTOR does in the future this wont be the last of the layoffs by a mile. Why hire more devs when you can scare them by job layoffs and have them work longer hours and do the work of two? Your talking about peoples lives here and seriously shareholders need to start dumping stock based around moronic companies that love to ruins peoples lives.
Rich Vogel today. Erickson and Oheln tomorrow. They can't fire them all at once. It would look too much like a chainsaw massacre at the end of a cheap slasher flick.
PS. If I might refer you to this locked thread:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/357214/Bloodbath-at-EABW-is-undeniable-proof-this-game-is-severely-wounded.html
Anyone who made big decisions on TOR should be fired. They had a chance at greatness and screwed up big time. I would get fresh heads in there and people who have a CLUE about what makes an MMO fun to start making decisions, not these idiots. Although its a little late now, GW2 is out in 5 weeks so meh.
One day , some academic should do a study about how the hysterical and abusive overhyping of the game by both the paid and unpaid fanbois of this game actually created a large body of ordinary subscribers to critique this game.
Don't feel bad for what is happening. These are people making alot of money that did not listen to anyone but themselves. Sorry but accountability needs to be brought to the mmo genre when things go bad. No more excuses.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Some might find it funny but in a way you are totally right.
Have you a source for: "Mr Lucas earns nothing substantial" . I keep seeing people saying LA get nothing until SW pays for itself but that simply isn't the way licence deals work - nor would LA simply hand EA a blank cheque. (Made a profit yet? Sorry just paid JR $10M consultancy fee).
When EA were asked in feb' to comment about what they paid EA it was all 'no comment' - in response I think to earlier comments from Activision's boss Bobby Kotick that EA would struggle to make money from SWTOR because they would be paying LA.
The way licence deals work I would expect LA to get paid a substantial sum regardless (Bobby Kotick sure did). The question really is what risk-reward scenario did EA / LA agree. Do EA simply pay LA for X years use of the IP - with EA keeping any and all profit; or a sum based on sales and/or subs retained - reflecting the strength of the IP?
If you have a definitive source that would be good (I know analysts expected LA to get a third but again EA didn't comment).
"As with the launch of any MMO, the size and skillset of the teams needed to maintain the game is different than the ones that built it."
Surely the people who built the game and were not needed to maintain it will have been moved ... shortly after the game launched maybe? I would have thought that anyone being let go 7 months after launch was a "maintainer".
This bit was funny as well: " currently staffed to ensure the continued delivery of new, high quality game content for The Old Republic, and at a more frequent cadence." So as they are getting rid of people does that mean they are moving to a lower frequency? Or maybe they are letting people go to move to a higher frequency of releases!
According to the statement of the captain of Titanic, everything was under control after the collision.
Best freaking post I have seen today.
You Sir, win the whole Internet (and a free copy of SWTOR once it goes F2P- Soon)
The apologists have pitbull grips it seems. Maybe they'll let go when the flesh finally rots off the bones.