The real solution is to come up with a weighted reputation system - allowing the playerbase to govern themselves.
Basically, everyones reputation starts off at "neutral", or 0 points.
When you interact with others in the game, similiar to the system that social networking systems use - they can thumbs up or thumbs down you, moving your reputation counter appropriately.
On the surface, a game could simply allow people to see each others reputation - and thus you'd know if you were getting into a group with a troll or a well reputable player.
A game could take this farther by implementing penelties and benefits based upon your reputation - i.e. NPCs within the game would grant different prices, different rewards, different quests, make players attackable by other players etc.. based upon your reputation.
Obviously, at a basic level this is abuseable - large groups of associated individuals (guilds, friends etc..) could tank or elevate a persons reputation...
However, this is why the system would need to be weighted , and include a number of different variables - a few being:
- Did you actually interact with the person affecting your reputation? (to address the situation where Bob harasses Molly, and then Molly tells her guild of 200 people to all downvote Bob... none of the other 199 members have had any interaction wth Bob and thus should not be able to affect his reptutation)
- Repeat voting: You should only be able to +1 or -1 a person a single time. However, you should be able to change your vote at any time. Meaning, Bob harasses Molly and Molly downvotes Bob. Bob apologizes profusely though, and explains it was a misunderstanding and helps Molly gain 2 levels as penance.. Molly can chose to remove vote completely, or change vote to a +1.
- The gaming company would probably need to implement a checks/balances system as well - if a particular characters rating spiked or plummeted on a certain day, their name should boil up to the top of some back end report and the support agents should do a brief scrub to identify potential abuse.. this would allow for long term improvement of the system.
I could go on and list a ton of variables, but just wanted to give a general idea... am really surprised with the number of social media sites and rating systems that exist in the world that no game has really tried to this yet. I know there have been some threads on various game forums about similiar suggestions.. but have yet to see an MMO implement it.
^^This
But when they get to -100 or something they get banned for a day
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Long ago, in a game called Nexus TK -- a very community-based game -- there existed a wonderful punishment for people who transgressed into sociopathic behavior like intentionally getting players killed by monsters (nasty penalties in the game, many of the better items break forever if you die, in addition to losing other stuff onto the ground).
They revoked your "immortal" protection, basically allowing other players to attack (read: hunt you like an animal) your character. They shoved you in a prisoner's uniform so everyone knew you were fair game, and announced it via broadcast. Dying once doesn't solve it -- a healer could rez you, and people could blow you up again until you were a penniless, naked, pinata.
All being said, the way MMO's move with premium services, I constantly keep my fingers crossed for an age-verified server. I'd definitely pay extra for age 25+ servers. Hell, for a wish, I hold out hope one day that there are some "mind verified" servers where if you want to play on it, you need proof from a licensed mental health professional that you are not a sociopath/psychopath. Then again, given my experiences in some games... the servers might wind up being kind of empty. -_-
Once upon a time, I was in a top guild.... and we competed against another guild.... of griefers, which would've been fine if they sucked.... problem was they were good players and they really gave us a run for our money.
Imagine fighting your hardest world raid boss and then having to fight the other guild.... those were the good days! Going back home at the end of the raid with 4 levels on average lost (that should've given away the game)
In WoW, I can see this as a concern. In EVE, meh... Point. Click. Shoot. Oh, wait, you're Amarr too? Shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot. I still took yer stuff. Noob.
There is only one game i can think of that did this right, the original Everquest. Server Rallos Zek was a straight up PVP server. Anybody could attack anybody. They had a RP server for those looking to play the game were factions mattered, in this case good vs evil, but Rallos Zek was for those who wanted a challenge. The nice thing about this was that the guilds ran things so if you wanted to just blindly attack somebody, it would be a good idea to make sure they dont know anybody because your life in the game could become very short lived.
Unfortunately in todays MMO's, and yes even EQ changed the model of this style, its not profitable to make a game like this. Everything is made to get as many people playing and make things as easy as possible to keep them playing.
There are griefers in video games, but they only have as much control over you as you allow them to have.
The problem is that most human beings have at least one easy button to push. Most players on this board, for example, will tend to lash out if you attack their favorite game, or playstyle; making them easy to "troll" with repeatable copy/paste topics.
The fault doesn't lie in being human, and therefor possible to manipulate. The fault lies in an internet 'society' that applauds manipulators.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Real life has griefers. Those people who whip into the parking space you've been waiting for, people cut in line, people take all the free samples, people eat food that isn't theirs in the lunch room refrigerator, people go on welfare rather than get a job, people get lost in online worlds rather than call their RL buddies. I'm sure everyone has wished they had a gun so they could shoot those people from time to time, but you don't because normal people don't shoot other people over parking lots.
There are griefers in video games, but they only have as much control over you as you allow them to have. At least in video gaming you can log out and go do something else rather than getting your blood pressure up. Maybe real life needs a "Logout" button more than video games need a "Vaporize Azzhat" button.
yeah well there are things in real life that you can do. flatten their tires, key their car. no one will ever know it was you if you do it right. your post made me lol at real life griefers. never thought of them that way. next time someone does that to me im just gonna walk up to them and call em a griefer then walk away. leave them sitting there wondering wth just happened. my wife keeps telling me im gonna get us shot one day though cause I tell these people off. in walmart had two ladies sitting there blocking the whole aisle talking. not shopping just talking. I told them to get a phone number and move their fat ass, its not a conference center its a grocery store. for some reason it has always worked for me.
we humans are the most crude and filthy bunch of sods in entire world. no matter how advanced mechanincs developers add in game to stop these animals, it will be futile. unless we can cure the entire human race, no amnt of counter measure will work. countless times i hav been kicked out of pugs in WoW for saying "1st time in here, please guide me". and after a day ppl who kicked me the 1st time found me in pug again and started praising me : "ohh man ur the best tank ever" ; "u rock man, the last tank was an asshole", everytime i read those comments i felt like snapping their necks. humans!!!
There are griefers in video games, but they only have as much control over you as you allow them to have.
The problem is that most human beings have at least one easy button to push. Most players on this board, for example, will tend to lash out if you attack their favorite game, or playstyle; making them easy to "troll" with repeatable copy/paste topics.
The fault doesn't lie in being human, and therefor possible to manipulate. The fault lies in an internet 'society' that applauds manipulators.
That's kind of my point, Icewhite. Life is full of all kinds of frustrations just as video games are. No matter what mechanic is buit into the game, some people are still going to behave badly. The only thing gamers (and people in general) can control is how we react.
Once someone shifts their perspective and starts looking at their gaming as "hard worK" and become fixated on "goals" in the game (loot, Experience etc) they become prime subjects for griefing and trolling. The only antidote is to remember these games and the "achievements" in them are just computer generated pixels that could vanish if someone spills a cup of coffee on the server.
Let me give you an example. I played WoW and I never was much of a raider, but I did PuG a few raids. Unlike other people, I actively seek out PuGs because I enjoy meeting people in the game and I decided a long time ago I'd risk the few jerks to find the many more good people.
So I decide to PuG a low level instance and I get in a group. I tend to play healers (Priest in this case) because it makes it easier to PuG if you have a healing class. Lots of healers won't PuG and, truthfully, I understand why. But like I said I decided to assume the risk, so I go in with open eyes.
As happens from time to time I land in a group with a tank who likes to pull fast, even when I announce I am out of mana. It doesn't take long before my group mates are grumbling and sending tells. I now have a choice. I can get pissed or I can entertain myself. I play games to entertain myself, so I'm going to get my entertainment one way or another.
So on the next OOM pull I stand up and blow the little remaining mana I have spam casting Power Word : Fortitude on her toon. She dies in short order and she's pissed about it. She unleashes a screed about "crappy healers who don't pay attention" in group chat, to which I respond, "Oh, gee. I'm sorry. I guess we both did the right thing at exactly the wrong time." Message delievered and thanks to a soulstone, no harm, no foul.
Another one of my favorites is when someone starts spamming "heal" at me I like to cast my little low level heals or my smallest heal on them. When they die and scream about it I'll tell them, "I did heal you, but you never told me WHICH heal to use. Since you know so much about healing, next time you should be more careful to specify which heal you want."
Even if "society" is to blame, each of us has the remedy in our possession. The point is each gamer is responsible for their own good time. The ultimate antidote to "griefing" is to keep a good attitude. I do think it's a little tragic when someone is playing a social game like an MMO and they refuse to socialize with anyone outside their guild. I'm sure they have their reasons, but still.
Just in case you're wondering I try to live this in real life too. In stores I'm the guy that likes to read the employee's name tags and call them by name and I try hard to start every conversation with a smile and a sincere "how are you?" I keep it up even when peopel are grumpy or rude. Especially then. Its my little message tot hem that I'm happy no matter how they behave so they might as well drop the grumpy/rude act.
There is no great reason for this beyond, well, I like to be happy and enjoy myself. So a while ago I just decided to be happy and enjoy myself. Strangely I suddenly found myself surrounded by happy people who were enjoying themselves too. I'm not so arrogant is to think I caused that, but I think that when you're happy and enjoying yourself you tend to attract other people who are also happy and enjoying themselves.
It works well in video games as well and it doesn't prevent you from "striking back". It just enables you to handle bad behavior with a wink and a smile and the people around you seem to get a kick out of it too. For example no one else in the group with the OOM pulling tank minded the wipe when they saw how I handled it. And after that we all had a good time, including the tank who quit pulling when I was OOM (BTW, she happens to be a good friend of mine now and a member of my gaming group).
Besides, if you think about it, truly epic griefing and/or trolling can be appreciated as an art form. "Lerooooooooooooooooy Jenkins!" anyone? The other 30 or 40 people on that raid were griefed, but I think even they had to say (later on after the shock wore off), "hey that was pretty funny. I'm kinda glad I was there to see it first hand."
My only point in this wall of text is if you don't want to be griefed or trolled then you can make that happen. Killing the griefer isn't the answer because if they cared about their pixels they wouldn't be griefing. By killing them you're letting the griefer know they succeeded in their goal, which was to have a good time by ruining your good time. Bad behavior on the internet is easy to ignore if you use the "logout" option. By "logout" option I mean just stay positive. It works against even the most creative trolls and griefers.
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
One of the things I like about EVE is that people like this can simply be shot. It's not uncommon for fleet commanders to call primary on idiots like these.
The real solution is to come up with a weighted reputation system - allowing the playerbase to govern themselves.
Basically, everyones reputation starts off at "neutral", or 0 points.
When you interact with others in the game, similiar to the system that social networking systems use - they can thumbs up or thumbs down you, moving your reputation counter appropriately.
On the surface, a game could simply allow people to see each others reputation - and thus you'd know if you were getting into a group with a troll or a well reputable player.
A game could take this farther by implementing penelties and benefits based upon your reputation - i.e. NPCs within the game would grant different prices, different rewards, different quests, make players attackable by other players etc.. based upon your reputation.
Obviously, at a basic level this is abuseable - large groups of associated individuals (guilds, friends etc..) could tank or elevate a persons reputation...
However, this is why the system would need to be weighted , and include a number of different variables - a few being:
- Did you actually interact with the person affecting your reputation? (to address the situation where Bob harasses Molly, and then Molly tells her guild of 200 people to all downvote Bob... none of the other 199 members have had any interaction wth Bob and thus should not be able to affect his reptutation)
- Repeat voting: You should only be able to +1 or -1 a person a single time. However, you should be able to change your vote at any time. Meaning, Bob harasses Molly and Molly downvotes Bob. Bob apologizes profusely though, and explains it was a misunderstanding and helps Molly gain 2 levels as penance.. Molly can chose to remove vote completely, or change vote to a +1.
- The gaming company would probably need to implement a checks/balances system as well - if a particular characters rating spiked or plummeted on a certain day, their name should boil up to the top of some back end report and the support agents should do a brief scrub to identify potential abuse.. this would allow for long term improvement of the system.
I could go on and list a ton of variables, but just wanted to give a general idea... am really surprised with the number of social media sites and rating systems that exist in the world that no game has really tried to this yet. I know there have been some threads on various game forums about similiar suggestions.. but have yet to see an MMO implement it.
^^This
But when they get to -100 or something they get banned for a day
next up: how Goons joined your game, created 101 accounts, and got everyone banned for a day.
The real solution is to come up with a weighted reputation system - allowing the playerbase to govern themselves.
Basically, everyones reputation starts off at "neutral", or 0 points.
When you interact with others in the game, similiar to the system that social networking systems use - they can thumbs up or thumbs down you, moving your reputation counter appropriately.
On the surface, a game could simply allow people to see each others reputation - and thus you'd know if you were getting into a group with a troll or a well reputable player.
A game could take this farther by implementing penelties and benefits based upon your reputation - i.e. NPCs within the game would grant different prices, different rewards, different quests, make players attackable by other players etc.. based upon your reputation.
Obviously, at a basic level this is abuseable - large groups of associated individuals (guilds, friends etc..) could tank or elevate a persons reputation...
However, this is why the system would need to be weighted , and include a number of different variables - a few being:
- Did you actually interact with the person affecting your reputation? (to address the situation where Bob harasses Molly, and then Molly tells her guild of 200 people to all downvote Bob... none of the other 199 members have had any interaction wth Bob and thus should not be able to affect his reptutation)
- Repeat voting: You should only be able to +1 or -1 a person a single time. However, you should be able to change your vote at any time. Meaning, Bob harasses Molly and Molly downvotes Bob. Bob apologizes profusely though, and explains it was a misunderstanding and helps Molly gain 2 levels as penance.. Molly can chose to remove vote completely, or change vote to a +1.
- The gaming company would probably need to implement a checks/balances system as well - if a particular characters rating spiked or plummeted on a certain day, their name should boil up to the top of some back end report and the support agents should do a brief scrub to identify potential abuse.. this would allow for long term improvement of the system.
I could go on and list a ton of variables, but just wanted to give a general idea... am really surprised with the number of social media sites and rating systems that exist in the world that no game has really tried to this yet. I know there have been some threads on various game forums about similiar suggestions.. but have yet to see an MMO implement it.
^^This
But when they get to -100 or something they get banned for a day
next up: how Goons joined your game, created 101 accounts, and got everyone banned for a day.
As stated in my original post - there would have to be a governance system implemented in order to address the potential for abusing the reputation system.
At a code level this could simply be done by requiring player interaction in order to allow voting on a players reputation - i.e. the 100 Goons would have had to have some sort of interaction in order to attempt the ban for a day example you are describing.
At an operational level, as called out as well in the suggestion, the company could implement a checks and balances process so that when people suddenly go from 0 to -100, they get flagged for review by a support agent to make sure it is not a group of people abusing the system.
You could also implement additional code level requirements like "must be level 5 to impact a players reputation". Level 5 was just an example, as you'd want the ability for new players to impact a griefers reputation.. but you wouldn't want a bunch of Goons to create Level 1 characters and attempt to abuse the system.
Comments
^^This
But when they get to -100 or something they get banned for a day
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
Long ago, in a game called Nexus TK -- a very community-based game -- there existed a wonderful punishment for people who transgressed into sociopathic behavior like intentionally getting players killed by monsters (nasty penalties in the game, many of the better items break forever if you die, in addition to losing other stuff onto the ground).
They revoked your "immortal" protection, basically allowing other players to attack (read: hunt you like an animal) your character. They shoved you in a prisoner's uniform so everyone knew you were fair game, and announced it via broadcast. Dying once doesn't solve it -- a healer could rez you, and people could blow you up again until you were a penniless, naked, pinata.
All being said, the way MMO's move with premium services, I constantly keep my fingers crossed for an age-verified server. I'd definitely pay extra for age 25+ servers. Hell, for a wish, I hold out hope one day that there are some "mind verified" servers where if you want to play on it, you need proof from a licensed mental health professional that you are not a sociopath/psychopath. Then again, given my experiences in some games... the servers might wind up being kind of empty. -_-
Can't get matched in SWTOR with someone on your ignore list, Pokket.
I can't tell if this was supposed to be funny or not. Either way, this just reminds me of why I hate WoW and it's archaic MMO design.
I feel like this column may have been relevent 8 years ago. It's all been said before.
If you don't worry about it, it's not a problem.
Once upon a time, I was in a top guild.... and we competed against another guild.... of griefers, which would've been fine if they sucked.... problem was they were good players and they really gave us a run for our money.
Imagine fighting your hardest world raid boss and then having to fight the other guild.... those were the good days! Going back home at the end of the raid with 4 levels on average lost (that should've given away the game)
In WoW, I can see this as a concern. In EVE, meh... Point. Click. Shoot. Oh, wait, you're Amarr too? Shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot. I still took yer stuff. Noob.
Anything new here? Hmmm... Nope. o/
There is only one game i can think of that did this right, the original Everquest. Server Rallos Zek was a straight up PVP server. Anybody could attack anybody. They had a RP server for those looking to play the game were factions mattered, in this case good vs evil, but Rallos Zek was for those who wanted a challenge. The nice thing about this was that the guilds ran things so if you wanted to just blindly attack somebody, it would be a good idea to make sure they dont know anybody because your life in the game could become very short lived.
Unfortunately in todays MMO's, and yes even EQ changed the model of this style, its not profitable to make a game like this. Everything is made to get as many people playing and make things as easy as possible to keep them playing.
There are countless ways of dealing with these kinds of people, you just need to learn that instead of feeding them with what they are after....
The problem is that most human beings have at least one easy button to push. Most players on this board, for example, will tend to lash out if you attack their favorite game, or playstyle; making them easy to "troll" with repeatable copy/paste topics.
The fault doesn't lie in being human, and therefor possible to manipulate. The fault lies in an internet 'society' that applauds manipulators.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
we humans are the most crude and filthy bunch of sods in entire world. no matter how advanced mechanincs developers add in game to stop these animals, it will be futile. unless we can cure the entire human race, no amnt of counter measure will work. countless times i hav been kicked out of pugs in WoW for saying "1st time in here, please guide me". and after a day ppl who kicked me the 1st time found me in pug again and started praising me : "ohh man ur the best tank ever" ; "u rock man, the last tank was an asshole", everytime i read those comments i felt like snapping their necks. humans!!!
That's kind of my point, Icewhite. Life is full of all kinds of frustrations just as video games are. No matter what mechanic is buit into the game, some people are still going to behave badly. The only thing gamers (and people in general) can control is how we react.
Once someone shifts their perspective and starts looking at their gaming as "hard worK" and become fixated on "goals" in the game (loot, Experience etc) they become prime subjects for griefing and trolling. The only antidote is to remember these games and the "achievements" in them are just computer generated pixels that could vanish if someone spills a cup of coffee on the server.
Let me give you an example. I played WoW and I never was much of a raider, but I did PuG a few raids. Unlike other people, I actively seek out PuGs because I enjoy meeting people in the game and I decided a long time ago I'd risk the few jerks to find the many more good people.
So I decide to PuG a low level instance and I get in a group. I tend to play healers (Priest in this case) because it makes it easier to PuG if you have a healing class. Lots of healers won't PuG and, truthfully, I understand why. But like I said I decided to assume the risk, so I go in with open eyes.
As happens from time to time I land in a group with a tank who likes to pull fast, even when I announce I am out of mana. It doesn't take long before my group mates are grumbling and sending tells. I now have a choice. I can get pissed or I can entertain myself. I play games to entertain myself, so I'm going to get my entertainment one way or another.
So on the next OOM pull I stand up and blow the little remaining mana I have spam casting Power Word : Fortitude on her toon. She dies in short order and she's pissed about it. She unleashes a screed about "crappy healers who don't pay attention" in group chat, to which I respond, "Oh, gee. I'm sorry. I guess we both did the right thing at exactly the wrong time." Message delievered and thanks to a soulstone, no harm, no foul.
Another one of my favorites is when someone starts spamming "heal" at me I like to cast my little low level heals or my smallest heal on them. When they die and scream about it I'll tell them, "I did heal you, but you never told me WHICH heal to use. Since you know so much about healing, next time you should be more careful to specify which heal you want."
Even if "society" is to blame, each of us has the remedy in our possession. The point is each gamer is responsible for their own good time. The ultimate antidote to "griefing" is to keep a good attitude. I do think it's a little tragic when someone is playing a social game like an MMO and they refuse to socialize with anyone outside their guild. I'm sure they have their reasons, but still.
Just in case you're wondering I try to live this in real life too. In stores I'm the guy that likes to read the employee's name tags and call them by name and I try hard to start every conversation with a smile and a sincere "how are you?" I keep it up even when peopel are grumpy or rude. Especially then. Its my little message tot hem that I'm happy no matter how they behave so they might as well drop the grumpy/rude act.
There is no great reason for this beyond, well, I like to be happy and enjoy myself. So a while ago I just decided to be happy and enjoy myself. Strangely I suddenly found myself surrounded by happy people who were enjoying themselves too. I'm not so arrogant is to think I caused that, but I think that when you're happy and enjoying yourself you tend to attract other people who are also happy and enjoying themselves.
It works well in video games as well and it doesn't prevent you from "striking back". It just enables you to handle bad behavior with a wink and a smile and the people around you seem to get a kick out of it too. For example no one else in the group with the OOM pulling tank minded the wipe when they saw how I handled it. And after that we all had a good time, including the tank who quit pulling when I was OOM (BTW, she happens to be a good friend of mine now and a member of my gaming group).
Besides, if you think about it, truly epic griefing and/or trolling can be appreciated as an art form. "Lerooooooooooooooooy Jenkins!" anyone? The other 30 or 40 people on that raid were griefed, but I think even they had to say (later on after the shock wore off), "hey that was pretty funny. I'm kinda glad I was there to see it first hand."
My only point in this wall of text is if you don't want to be griefed or trolled then you can make that happen. Killing the griefer isn't the answer because if they cared about their pixels they wouldn't be griefing. By killing them you're letting the griefer know they succeeded in their goal, which was to have a good time by ruining your good time. Bad behavior on the internet is easy to ignore if you use the "logout" option. By "logout" option I mean just stay positive. It works against even the most creative trolls and griefers.
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
One of the things I like about EVE is that people like this can simply be shot. It's not uncommon for fleet commanders to call primary on idiots like these.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
next up: how Goons joined your game, created 101 accounts, and got everyone banned for a day.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
This is why I hate faction PvP. I want to select who my enemies are, not the devs.
My gaming blog
As stated in my original post - there would have to be a governance system implemented in order to address the potential for abusing the reputation system.
At a code level this could simply be done by requiring player interaction in order to allow voting on a players reputation - i.e. the 100 Goons would have had to have some sort of interaction in order to attempt the ban for a day example you are describing.
At an operational level, as called out as well in the suggestion, the company could implement a checks and balances process so that when people suddenly go from 0 to -100, they get flagged for review by a support agent to make sure it is not a group of people abusing the system.
You could also implement additional code level requirements like "must be level 5 to impact a players reputation". Level 5 was just an example, as you'd want the ability for new players to impact a griefers reputation.. but you wouldn't want a bunch of Goons to create Level 1 characters and attempt to abuse the system.
Why does she use "we" when referring to herself?