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Divinity's Reach: Why WvW is Better than Open-World PvP

FinitFinit Smithsburg, MDPosts: 145Member

 

Below is an excerpt from an article featured on the blog, Divinity's Reach.

"As always critics have found their reasons to dislike the latest MMO.  In this case, Guild Wars 2 is the aforementioned target of a lot of attention, and the community has leveled both just and unwarranted criticisms at the game.  One of my favorite quotes from recent developer interviews is this quote by Colin Johanson:

"Over the years we’ve learned to not be surprised by any of the feedback we get. I’ve learned one person will say a mountain is too tall, another will say it’s too short, and a third will say there should be no mountain at all"

One of the largest criticism stems from a niche-focused group that have stated Guild Wars 2 has no open world PvP. Without this inclusion in the game, many supporters of that PvP "genre" have chosen to not even try Guild Wars 2.

 

I would argue that these critics would be right to say Guild Wars 2 does not have true "open world PvP", however, I would argue ArenaNet has created something better through WvW.

 

Note: Several articles have attempted to discuss this distinction, but I haven't found one that defines the distinctions and captures why, ultimately, open world PvPers should rejoice at WvW."

 

Full Article can be found here:  http://divinitysreach.blogspot.com/2012/07/why-wvw-is-better-than-open-world-pvp.html#more

I know this is a controversial issue, so please be respectful to those who may disagree with you.  Thank you!

My Guild Wars 2 Blog can be found here: Divinity's Reach

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Comments

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member

    For the real diehard open PvP (Ultima...) crowd, this is not going to appease anyone. It's not better to them and never will be because the following possibilities are missing

    1. Ganking people minding their own business questing.
    2. Being ganked in the same state.
    3. Recurring Grudge matches over the span of motnhs with individual players/guilds
    4. Griefing (yes, there are people that enjoy this, admit it. Even if there are some that don't)
    5. The constant feel of danger no matter where you go.
    Personally, I like WvW. But there's a large contingent of open pvp players who like the above items, and will not be satisfied with WvW.
     
    Mind you they won't be satisfied with anything else on the current market either.
  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Finit

     

    Below is an excerpt from an article featured on the blog, Divinity's Reach.

    "As always critics have found their reasons to dislike the latest MMO.  In this case, Guild Wars 2 is the aforementioned target of a lot of attention, and the community has leveled both just and unwarranted criticisms at the game.  One of my favorite quotes from recent developer interviews is this quote by Colin Johanson:

    "Over the years we’ve learned to not be surprised by any of the feedback we get. I’ve learned one person will say a mountain is too tall, another will say it’s too short, and a third will say there should be no mountain at all"

    One of the largest criticism stems from a niche-focused group that have stated Guild Wars 2 has no open world PvP. Without this inclusion in the game, many supporters of that PvP "genre" have chosen to not even try Guild Wars 2.

     

    I would argue that these critics would be right to say Guild Wars 2 does not have true "open world PvP", however, I would argue ArenaNet has created something better through WvW.

     

    Note: Several articles have attempted to discuss this distinction, but I haven't found one that defines the distinctions and captures why, ultimately, open world PvPers should rejoice at WvW."

     

    Full Article can be found here:  http://divinitysreach.blogspot.com/2012/07/why-wvw-is-better-than-open-world-pvp.html#more

    I know this is a controversial issue, so please be respectful to those who may disagree with you.  Thank you!

    I love the fact that open world PvP is not being pursued by some of the newer MMO's to be released or has been released.  Everyone in their right mind knows open world PvP inevitably boils down to dishonest gameplay and ganking.  It does nothing for the genre and drives players away.  I also love the fact that some of the newer games are featuring 3 faction PvP and PvP zones to segment that population away from others who want the feel and excitement of exploration and suspense in pushing the envelope so to speak on the PvE side of things.  It really harkens back to the old school mentality where players were fun to around and not something you hated to see like in WoW.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
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    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

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  • Poison_AdelePoison_Adele Seattle, WAPosts: 287Member

    Personally, I'm sad that there's no open world PVP. I would really have loved to take part in PVP that spills over from the Mists (to be fair though, that doesn't sound too out of the question for future expansions). I'm a huge fan of WvW though, and I feel ArenaNet made the right choice for the type of game Guild Wars 2 is to not go with truly open world PVP. The entire lore setup of Guild Wars 2, the philosophy that the developers really stuck to when creating the game, was having everyone be happy to work together and to see other players when doing PVE. That simply wouldn't be possible with fully open world PVP. Truly open world PVP doesn't have a place in this game, but WvW is the next best thing. And it is really, really fun--it's a compromise,  and it's a shame that oldschoolers are unwilling to give it a try.

    image

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member

    Open world PvP has proven to be a gankfest, and builds a community like that of WoW, absolutly disgusting.

    Also, I am a PvPer, I never buy a game that does not have PvP, and yet I dispise open world PvP. So the idea that all PvPers like open world gankfests is laughable, and not even close to the truth.

    Want more proof, just look at the numbers, the pre-purchases, and amount of players flocking to the forums and youtube expressing thier love for GW2.

    That niche crowd needs to get a grip, thier vision of MMOs is dead, and will never be more than a niche.

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  • SkullyWoodsSkullyWoods Thorold, ONPosts: 183Member

    Open world PvP keeps me on my toes. I like that.

    #TeamVainlash
    Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    I played UO at release, and I used to be a big proponent of open world PvP.  I never was a PK, but I just liked the freedom of it all, and the fact that I knew that I might be able to be an actual "hero" and save someone or hunt down gankers.  Indeed, I liked it so much, that even after UO, I would almost always play on a PvP server of whatever game I was playing.

    But at some point, it may have been in the AoC era, I realized something...

    I had been ganked tons of times.  But I had actually saved someone from ganking or killed a ganker only a handful of times, maybe three or four.  The problem was that open world PvP, without any real structure or harsh penalties, simply devolves into a predator and prey situation.

    You are either a predator (ganker) or prey (non-ganker).  There really is no in between.  Trying to be an "anti-ganker" is so inefficient when compared to being a regular ganker that there is almost no point.  So for a ganker, PvP servers are great, you have tons of unsuspecting and vastly underpowered players to kill unfairly.  But for everyone else...it's kind of crappy.  Who wants to be prey?

    And that's when I stopped playing on PvP servers.  I really have no interest in ganking, and I definitely don't want to serve as a deer to every ganker's wolf.

    One day...I hope that there is an open-world PvP game with enough structure and penalties for ganking (REAL penalties like perma-death or perma-stat loss) so that the whole thing doesn't devolve into predator/prey...but that has yet to happen.  The problem is I think that all open-world PvP games cater to players who want to gank.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • WoW_RefugeeWoW_Refugee Lavale, QCPosts: 80Member

    Real PvPers get their kicks fighting challenging opponents who can give them a good fight, not killing lowbies. Open world PvP is for gankers and griefers. 'Nuff said.

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member
    Originally posted by WoW_Refugee

    Real PvPers get their kicks fighting challenging opponents who can give them a good fight, not killing lowbies. Open world PvP is for gankers and griefers. 'Nuff said.

    Er, unless the game is properly developed and there isn't a huge power gap, and there's an incentive not to gank. You sound like you've never played a FFA PVP MMO. At best you've played a PvE MMOs "pvp" server.

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,152Member
    Originally posted by Garvon3
    Originally posted by WoW_Refugee

    Real PvPers get their kicks fighting challenging opponents who can give them a good fight, not killing lowbies. Open world PvP is for gankers and griefers. 'Nuff said.

    Er, unless the game is properly developed and there isn't a huge power gap, and there's an incentive not to gank. You sound like you've never played a FFA PVP MMO. At best you've played a PvE MMOs "pvp" server.

     

    You mean like Darkfall, Mortal Online.... both dead.

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  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member
    Originally posted by Adalwulff
    Originally posted by Garvon3
    Originally posted by WoW_Refugee

    Real PvPers get their kicks fighting challenging opponents who can give them a good fight, not killing lowbies. Open world PvP is for gankers and griefers. 'Nuff said.

    Er, unless the game is properly developed and there isn't a huge power gap, and there's an incentive not to gank. You sound like you've never played a FFA PVP MMO. At best you've played a PvE MMOs "pvp" server.

     

    You mean like Darkfall, Mortal Online.... both dead.

    Darkfall is actually probably the only MMO in the last 6 years that can say that its growing over time, in the same way older MMOs did. The only one that's opened extra servers, not closed servers.

    But I guess it's totally dead, just don't tell the publishers that just signed a big deal with Aventurine, or the 30 new developers the team hired.

     

    Mortal Online was always crap, but it wasn't because of the PvP.

    Eve is FFA PvP if you happen to recall? And its pretty much the healthiest MMO out there.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon

    I think thats a very personal opinion...

     

    Since WvWvW has many ingredients that make sure for good PvP, and even has some PvE in the PvP zones, i can imagine that exactly those ingredients in a true PvP world, would finally make a PvP game thats wordwile. 

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member

    Why do we keep calling it WvW?

     

    Why can't we call it what it really is? RvR? It's like WoW rebranding instancing as "phasing".

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member

     

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Why do we keep calling it WvW?

     

    Why can't we call it what it really is? RvR? It's like WoW rebranding instancing as "phasing".

    I know. Just yesterday I went to a restaraunt and had a delightful oven-roasted dough with tomato sauce and cheese, and some ruffian called it a pizza. The gall!

     

     

    Honestly, while there are many open-world pvpers, every game that has had such a feature has degenerated into griefing and abuse. And since even a handful of grifers can make life miserable for dozens of other players, They will have the stronger impact.

     

    Although I still believe a non-gear heavy MMO with down-levelling in lower level zones could be perfect for open world PvP.

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member
    Originally posted by terrant

     

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Why do we keep calling it WvW?

     

    Why can't we call it what it really is? RvR? It's like WoW rebranding instancing as "phasing".

    I know. Just yesterday I went to a restaraunt and had a delightful oven-roasted dough with tomato sauce and cheese, and some ruffian called it a pizza. The gall!

     

    Wtf? That's an awful analogy. A better analogy would be someone calling your pizza a "cheesey bread with marinara" or some other such nonsense.

    WvW is just RvR. Call it that.

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member
    Originally posted by Garvon3
    Originally posted by terrant

     

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Why do we keep calling it WvW?

     

    Why can't we call it what it really is? RvR? It's like WoW rebranding instancing as "phasing".

    I know. Just yesterday I went to a restaraunt and had a delightful oven-roasted dough with tomato sauce and cheese, and some ruffian called it a pizza. The gall!

     

    Wtf? That's an awful analogy. A better analogy would be someone calling your pizza a "cheesey bread with marinara" or some other such nonsense.

    WvW is just RvR. Call it that.

    I know, but branding is important. Kleenex wasn't the first soft facial tissue out there, but you better bet it's the one you remember.

     

    But thank you for the analogy. 

  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite ManilaPosts: 879Member
    Originally posted by wormed
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    I love the fact that open world PvP is not being pursued by some of the newer MMO's to be released or has been released.  Everyone in their right mind knows open world PvP inevitably boils down to dishonest gameplay and ganking.  It does nothing for the genre and drives players away.  I also love the fact that some of the newer games are featuring 3 faction PvP and PvP zones to segment that population away from others who want the feel and excitement of exploration and suspense in pushing the envelope so to speak on the PvE side of things.  It really harkens back to the old school mentality where players were fun to around and not something you hated to see like in WoW.

    Congrats, it must feel awesome to know you're one of the contributors behind MMO's sucking in recent years.

    Sore loser..?

    There are still games out there with open world PvP. I can find no merit in your statement.

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Worcester, MAPosts: 2,898Member
    Originally posted by terrant
    Originally posted by Garvon3
    Originally posted by terrant

     

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Why do we keep calling it WvW?

     

    Why can't we call it what it really is? RvR? It's like WoW rebranding instancing as "phasing".

    I know. Just yesterday I went to a restaraunt and had a delightful oven-roasted dough with tomato sauce and cheese, and some ruffian called it a pizza. The gall!

     

    Wtf? That's an awful analogy. A better analogy would be someone calling your pizza a "cheesey bread with marinara" or some other such nonsense.

    WvW is just RvR. Call it that.

    I know, but branding is important. Kleenex wasn't the first soft facial tissue out there, but you better bet it's the one you remember.

     

    But thank you for the analogy. 

    Except that it's already branded... it's like taking a Kleenex and calling it a Dooblex. For no real reason. It's plagiarism.

  • PrenhoPrenho AracajuPosts: 298Member

    The problem is that PVP in wow(and wow clones) means nothing, WoW and its clones can't be examples of an owpvp game because pvp in these games like wow is garbage, just red team vs blue team, without any consequences. Don't compare the poor pvp in WoW and its clones with a true player driven politics-economy sandbox MMO, first because there are consequences for pk(there is no consequence in wow's pvp), an owpvp game is not a gankfest, because if a player kills another player without any war between them and the player being attacked doesn't react, the killer will become pk and he can lose item(s) if he dies in pk state, but if you attack the player and he reacts, the pvp goes on and no one will become pk.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Garvon3
    Originally posted by terrant
    Originally posted by Garvon3
    Originally posted by terrant

     

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Why do we keep calling it WvW?

     

    Why can't we call it what it really is? RvR? It's like WoW rebranding instancing as "phasing".

    I know. Just yesterday I went to a restaraunt and had a delightful oven-roasted dough with tomato sauce and cheese, and some ruffian called it a pizza. The gall!

     

    Wtf? That's an awful analogy. A better analogy would be someone calling your pizza a "cheesey bread with marinara" or some other such nonsense.

    WvW is just RvR. Call it that.

    I know, but branding is important. Kleenex wasn't the first soft facial tissue out there, but you better bet it's the one you remember.

     

    But thank you for the analogy. 

    Except that it's already branded... it's like taking a Kleenex and calling it a Dooblex. For no real reason. It's plagiarism.

    Because if they called it RvR, they might have to pay Mythic which is now Bioware for using their ideas. 

     

    We dont need another Apple vs Android

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • HellSingsHellSings Toronto, ONPosts: 185Member
    Originally posted by Finit

     

    I know this is a controversial issue, so please be respectful to those who may disagree with you.  Thank you!

    That doesn't happen on these forums.

    The only reason WvW works is because of the way GW2 is designed, open world pvp has no place here. It's different for every game, WvW won't change my love for open world PvP.

  • RavenRaven LondonPosts: 1,974Member Common
    Originally posted by GriselBrand
    Originally posted by Finit

     

    I know this is a controversial issue, so please be respectful to those who may disagree with you.  Thank you!

    That doesn't happen on these forums.

    The only reason WvW works is because of the way GW2 is designed, open world pvp has no place here. It's different for every game, WvW won't change my love for open world PvP.

    Touche my friend, just because world PVP was executed badly on some MMOs doesnt mean it is not great or that some people dont find it great, Open World PVP is just bad on Theme Park MMOs because there is no real goal other than to gank others. Others have done it much better in the past and continue doing it much better.

    But ofc the Theme Park crowd that only really played WoW only has to say that Open World PVP is for gankers, but I dont blame them, their experience is quite limited. And Theme Parks have been horrible at implementing World PVP, its the reason Blizzard dropped it right after vanilla it just didnt work for their theme park framework.

    When I mean drop it I mean moved the focus completely from anything world pvp, they had a couple of failed experiments and that's it, pretty much everything to do with PVP is done inside instances. It is also much more e-sport like which is what i dare say non-MMO people ( guys that have started playing MMOs with WoW and so on and may not necessarily be avid MMORPG followers ) like the most, which has been made popular with games like League of Legends etc.. its the sort of balanced ladder format completely detached from the world in the sense that you are in an instance and some number at the end told you, you won, which just doesnt appeal to me.

    image

  • SiphaedSiphaed Everywhere!Posts: 876Member Uncommon

    Are you guys insane in thinking that there's no "ganking opertunities" within the Wx3 gameplay?  Have any of you who make this claim even played the game yet?

     

    Let's start with the Carvan Escorts, which more times than fingers on both hands was I ganked or ganking at these during a single weekend.  Players escoring these supply chains have no guards (unless upgraded) and if solo have a high possiblity of getting slaughtered as they're basically escorting a high-priority target.

     

    Then there are the DE's such as the the NPC Army Camps, which armies fight over like crazy because of the significant physical boon to their troops they provide.  Many times have groups come behind smaller groups in the mist of these and slayed them all while they're mid fight with NPC's. 

     

    So, which ganking are people so proud of in world-PvP that's so special? Is it where you're a decked out LvL80 coming into a LvL15 zone and spawn camping some "newbs" until they "GG logout"?  That's not Open World PvP, that's just plan sadism.

     

    I like how in this game players are on even ground with everyone being boosted to LvL80 when doing the Wx3.  Though with gear and the higher the level, player's skills and such will take more weight over someone just LvL2 that's boosted against someone who's say LvL69 ;)  that's boosted.  But, overall they're somewhat on par.

     

    As for the Risk/Reward, there's that in this game already with how each and every time you enter a DOWN STATE (not just dead, but down state as mentioned by the developers) your armor integrity gets weaker and breaks a bit more.   This means that there's a cost to constantly dying in the game, that's a risk.   No need for extremes such as full or partial looting, because that's not what this game is about nor designed for (door for Darkfall is that way ---->).


  • dageezadageeza london, KYPosts: 578Member

    Who really cares what this tiny niche of players thinks?

    Its real simple if they cant gank or corpse camp in the open world they dont like the game because winning head to head on a fair battlefield is not an option for this sneaky behind the back litterbox bunch..

    Any game dev that welcomes this bunch by providing them with what they want for their griefing needs has doomed itself financially..

     

    Playing GW2..

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon

    I was always a world pvp kind of guy, but over time you just lose interest to gank questing people who wont even fight back 6/10 times.

    Often its that pesky OP rogue kind of class who corpse camp the living hell out of anything for the fun of it.

    There are many games that provide these kind of gameplay, and people should go play those games and dont complain about a game that doesnt provide griefing.

    Because thats all it is, griefing bad players.

    Its what i like inside the WoW arena, even numbers and split second tactical switches and counters.

    Something a poor noob will never pull off.

     

    Its a matter of taste, if you dont like cheese dont eat it.

  • seridanseridan ThessalonikiPosts: 1,202Member Uncommon

    In a game with dynamic level adjustment Open-World PVP might have been possible (and fun)

    Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums

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