Looking at it from a sportsman's point of view, yeah, clean and fair is better. But war is hell. If there was a real war, all bets are off. I think that is what the proponents of Open World PvP enjoy. It is more realistic. Some people like to play games, others are looking for a fantasy.
You know those evil orcs would kill your babies. You might even do the same to them if it meant saving your families' lives.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Real PvPers get their kicks fighting challenging opponents who can give them a good fight, not killing lowbies. Open world PvP is for gankers and griefers. 'Nuff said.
Er, unless the game is properly developed and there isn't a huge power gap, and there's an incentive not to gank. You sound like you've never played a FFA PVP MMO. At best you've played a PvE MMOs "pvp" server.
You mean like Darkfall, Mortal Online.... both dead.
Darkfall is actually probably the only MMO in the last 6 years that can say that its growing over time, in the same way older MMOs did. The only one that's opened extra servers, not closed servers.
But I guess it's totally dead, just don't tell the publishers that just signed a big deal with Aventurine, or the 30 new developers the team hired.
Mortal Online was always crap, but it wasn't because of the PvP.
Eve is FFA PvP if you happen to recall? And its pretty much the healthiest MMO out there.
The pop is still nothing compared to every other MMO out there, Darkfall is still a niche game, just like all open world PvP games are.
Yes EVE is massive ffa PvP, thats why most of the players avoid null sec. Most of the players are in high sec doing missions or mining and playing with the markets, this has been confirmed by CCP.
Bascially CCP was able to attract the niche crowd, by offering them a way to gank. A funny thing about that, is CCP expanded on the null sec area, because of pressure from the highly vocal niche crowd, but most players still avoided it.
Face facts guys, you will always be a niche crowd.
Who really cares what this tiny niche of players thinks?
Its real simple if they cant gank or corpse camp in the open world they dont like the game because winning head to head on a fair battlefield is not an option for this sneaky behind the back litterbox bunch..
Any game dev that welcomes this bunch by providing them with what they want for their griefing needs has doomed itself financially..
Following your logic, any feature that isnt in WoW shouldnt be implemented because "who cares about a tiny niche of players?", I mean WoW has the popularity and the most players of pretty much every other MMO combined.
It has nothing to do with Gank, I understand you may have limited experience in actual open world PVP, as most people who have only played theme parks ( AKA WoW and derivatives ) its easy to not understand that there is more to open world PVP than ganking.
Open world PVP doesnt mean just ganking at random locations it also means adding persistance to the events you are playing in these instances, it means having RvR actually affect your server persistently. Join Instance -> You have got more resource numbers than your enemy -> You Win -> destroy instance -> rinse and repeat. That is a lot more fun than actually having a persistent world experience where people have to coordinate to take back bits of the server for their faction or whatever, and actually see an effect rather than this Counter Strike like model we have today. EVE is a great example of this, imagine if everytime you got soverignty it just popped up a messsage saying you won and just reset the instance, absolute garbage.
Again this is my opinion, your entitled to yours but dont try and make it sound like its a fact because you dont know any better and are just focusing on a side effect of having world pvp and not what world pvp is actually about.
Looking at it from a sportsman's point of view, yeah, clean and fair is better. But war is hell. If there was a real war, all bets are off. I think that is what the proponents of Open World PvP enjoy. It is more realistic. Some people like to play games, others are looking for a fantasy.
You know those evil orcs would kill your babies. You might even do the same to them if it meant saving your families' lives.
That's the thing though. WvW isn't 'fair' or 'balanced'. The devs have even said as much, to the point of saying 'if you don't like it, tough sh*t',
The difference here, is that in traditional OPvP games there is such an imbalance, as to players are basically either getting 1 shotted (zero chance of success), or ganking (nearly 100% chance of success). There's really very little middle ground. This is compounded by the gear treadmill most games have.
GW2 & WvW removes this. Like in a real war, you can go after other people and murder them. However, unless you want to risk death, you better make sure you bring some backup, or superior firepower. Like a real war, the side w/ superior tactics and strategy, has the best chance of winning.
The way WvW exists currently, you can most definitely sneak up on someone and kill them in seconds. However, you need to be smart about it, and there is most definitely a risk. Hell, I spent the end of last BWE running around WvW either solo or duo. We were looking for the open world dungeon, and were severely outnumbered. The enemy easily had over 100 people running around, we had maybe 10. It was scary as hell, and we spent a lot of time trying to sneak passed the enemy, trying to figure out if we had been seen, making judgement calls about whether or not to kill a straggler (and possibly face the wraith of his friends).
This type of situation most definitely exists in WvW, and is probably the most important factor of OPvP in terms of fun. It's where the excitement comes from. With the exception of people who enjoy ganking. Really the only lack of 'enjoyment' here, is you can't force someone to 'rage quit', or grief / gank them out of the game. Personally, that's not my thing. I don't care if I get the best of someone and they go back to doing PvE. I care about what's happening in the mists, and if people leave, that's no different than people logging off.
Really open world PvP just caters to the ganking trolls who get their little buddies together and run around killing people with less numbers. In my opinion that is not PvP... These are not the kind of people you want to cater your game towards and the community will be better off for it. What we do have is an even playing field in WvW, which sure you can gank, but where does that really get you if your not going for objectives? I am yet to understand those who enjoy facerolling in open world for no benefit... Bring on GW2.
Looking at it from a sportsman's point of view, yeah, clean and fair is better. But war is hell. If there was a real war, all bets are off. I think that is what the proponents of Open World PvP enjoy. It is more realistic. Some people like to play games, others are looking for a fantasy.
You know those evil orcs would kill your babies. You might even do the same to them if it meant saving your families' lives.
That's the thing though. WvW isn't 'fair' or 'balanced'. The devs have even said as much, to the point of saying 'if you don't like it, tough sh*t',
The difference here, is that in traditional OPvP games there is such an imbalance, as to players are basically either getting 1 shotted (zero chance of success), or ganking (nearly 100% chance of success). There's really very little middle ground. This is compounded by the gear treadmill most games have.
GW2 & WvW removes this. Like in a real war, you can go after other people and murder them. However, unless you want to risk death, you better make sure you bring some backup, or superior firepower. Like a real war, the side w/ superior tactics and strategy, has the best chance of winning.
The way WvW exists currently, you can most definitely sneak up on someone and kill them in seconds. However, you need to be smart about it, and there is most definitely a risk. Hell, I spent the end of last BWE running around WvW either solo or duo. We were looking for the open world dungeon, and were severely outnumbered. The enemy easily had over 100 people running around, we had maybe 10. It was scary as hell, and we spent a lot of time trying to sneak passed the enemy, trying to figure out if we had been seen, making judgement calls about whether or not to kill a straggler (and possibly face the wraith of his friends).
This type of situation most definitely exists in WvW, and is probably the most important factor of OPvP in terms of fun. It's where the excitement comes from. With the exception of people who enjoy ganking. Really the only lack of 'enjoyment' here, is you can't force someone to 'rage quit', or grief / gank them out of the game. Personally, that's not my thing. I don't care if I get the best of someone and they go back to doing PvE. I care about what's happening in the mists, and if people leave, that's no different than people logging off.
So what you are saying with the highlighted is that it is exactly the same thing then? That in WvW you better bring superior fire power and more people to gank others and make sure you win. Basically text book ganking is what you suggest.
If the problem is having safe areas for people that do not want to engage in PVP then there are other ways, and again ganking lower level people is not the purpose of open world PVP its attacking your enemy that is the purpose, there are many games that implement incentives to NOT attack lower level people either by penalties to you or by protecting massive level gaps.
Like in a real war, if you are fighting for your side with a pocket knife do you think your enemy will stop and say "damn I have an RPG, but the guy just has a pocket knife I guess I will just drop this right here and fight fairly" the whole point is that if you are involved in war you better be prepared, pointless ganking is not world pvp, world pvp is actively engaging in a war against someone if you do that it doesnt matter if you are level 1 or lvl 100 or have super human skills.
Lineage 2 did this pretty damn well, there were pretty hefty penalties for killing someone that didnt fight back, if you declared a war on someone then you are fair game regardless of skill level, gear, level, there was no incentive for anyone that owned a castle and a massive army to kill some random dude on a field, but if that dude went around calling everyone names and being rude that situation quickly changed, your reputation actually meant something, if you didnt want to get involved in wars and not get ganked by enemies then you joined a clan that didnt provoke others and wasnt involved in wars.
Ill be waiting for the time when people start calling each other names and spamming "Anal Dirge" and all sorts of nonsense without fear of anything happening to them cause it doesnt matter you are just a number and you can't do anything to me, just like in WoW, anyone can be a douche cause everything is throw away and doesnt really matter as long as I am having fun, there is no roleplaying game whatsoever.
Edit: Real wars are not about balanced sides, its not about same numbers, same weapons, same stats, its about using your resources efficiently and making sure you have a strategy with whatever you got that will make you win, if you walk alone into no man's land you better have a reason to do so other than just expecting to be killed. Like other people said and I agree Open World doesnt fit into GW2 because it just lacks the infrastructure for open world pvp to actually work, and I am not saying it works in Darkfall or Mortal Online either, but it damn sure works in EVE and its awesome. Terrible implementation of World PVP != Open World PVP is bad.
Surely it’s a case of whatever fits, As a fan of open world PVP (Where it makes sense) i don’t enjoy playing games where it is an afterthought of the developers just to please me in fact i rarely stay on them games, very long. PVP is not like a bolt on option, if it’s done that way it simply does not work well. Even games that have developed PVP from the outset struggle to balance the play style well its quiet a tough thing to do, you in effect are trying to set a bunch of good rules for all the glorious ways the human mind can conceive to inflict pain on another individual.
Eve online, UO and Darkfall PVP fits them well it suits the rules and goals of the game. In Guild Wars 2 open world PVP does not fit, the dynamic event system means you want players around you working with you to fight back the hordes of NPC's not fight with you until your health bar is down to near nothing then for that player to deliver a killing blow, then run off into the distant saying "lulz, rule number 1 in PVP never trust anyone.."
The difference here, is that in traditional OPvP games there is such an imbalance, as to players are basically either getting 1 shotted (zero chance of success), or ganking (nearly 100% chance of success)
GW2 & WvW removes this. Like in a real war, you can go after other people and murder them. However, unless you want to risk death, you better make sure you bring some backup, or superior firepower.
So what you are saying with the highlighted is that it is exactly the same thing then? That in WvW you better bring superior fire power and more people to gank others and make sure you win. Basically text book ganking is what you suggest.
If the problem is having safe areas for people that do not want to engage in PVP then there are other ways, and again ganking lower level people is not the purpose of open world PVP its attacking your enemy that is the purpose, there are many games that implement incentives to NOT attack lower level people either by penalties to you or by protecting massive level gaps.
Like in a real war, if you are fighting for your side with a pocket knife do you think your enemy will stop and say "damn I have an RPG, but the guy just has a pocket knife I guess I will just drop this right here and fight fairly" the whole point is that if you are involved in war you better be prepared, pointless ganking is not world pvp, world pvp is actively engaging in a war against someone if you do that it doesnt matter if you are level 1 or lvl 100 or have super human skills.
Lineage 2 did this pretty damn well, there were pretty hefty penalties for killing someone that didnt fight back, if you declared a war on someone then you are fair game regardless of skill level, gear, level, there was no incentive for anyone that owned a castle and a massive army to kill some random dude on a field, but if that dude went around calling everyone names and being rude that situation quickly changed, your reputation actually meant something, if you didnt want to get involved in wars and not get ganked by enemies then you joined a clan that didnt provoke others and wasnt involved in wars.
Ill be waiting for the time when people start calling each other names and spamming "Anal Dirge" and all sorts of nonsense without fear of anything happening to them cause it doesnt matter you are just a number and you can't do anything to me, just like in WoW, anyone can be a douche cause everything is throw away and doesnt really matter as long as I am having fun, there is no roleplaying game whatsoever.
Not even remotely close to what I was saying.
I was going to structure a response, but reading your reply makes me wonder if you even bothered to read my post, at all?
How many games with World PvP are balanced, have real incentives, and are not ruined by a gear treadmill? Probably the most famous one of recent history would be either Darkfall, or Shadowbane. However in both games you could get 1shotted simply for not being high enough into the game.
WvW has ganking, but it is of a very different sort than other world pvp games. Regardless of your lvl, you can try and gank someone and have that person completely turn around and dominate you through superior skills. Very few games have that, VERY few.
As for war examples, you may want to do some reading through military history. There's many examples of a side with superior 'power' losing to a side with inferior numbers and equipment. Vietnam was one of them. Sure, you could try and shoot the guy w/ a knife with a bazooka, but you could miss, you could blow yourself up, and you could still get stabbed.
It's not like how in other games where your magic sword of raids-a-lot basically has enough power to whipe out a village. If you wanna go ruin that guy's day, you better be sure you're good enough to do so, and that he doesn't have any tricks up his sleave. Personally, I'm going to enjoy watching people try and gank me in WvW, only to be thrown off a cliff.
The difference here, is that in traditional OPvP games there is such an imbalance, as to players are basically either getting 1 shotted (zero chance of success), or ganking (nearly 100% chance of success)
GW2 & WvW removes this. Like in a real war, you can go after other people and murder them. However, unless you want to risk death, you better make sure you bring some backup, or superior firepower.
So what you are saying with the highlighted is that it is exactly the same thing then? That in WvW you better bring superior fire power and more people to gank others and make sure you win. Basically text book ganking is what you suggest.
If the problem is having safe areas for people that do not want to engage in PVP then there are other ways, and again ganking lower level people is not the purpose of open world PVP its attacking your enemy that is the purpose, there are many games that implement incentives to NOT attack lower level people either by penalties to you or by protecting massive level gaps.
Like in a real war, if you are fighting for your side with a pocket knife do you think your enemy will stop and say "damn I have an RPG, but the guy just has a pocket knife I guess I will just drop this right here and fight fairly" the whole point is that if you are involved in war you better be prepared, pointless ganking is not world pvp, world pvp is actively engaging in a war against someone if you do that it doesnt matter if you are level 1 or lvl 100 or have super human skills.
Lineage 2 did this pretty damn well, there were pretty hefty penalties for killing someone that didnt fight back, if you declared a war on someone then you are fair game regardless of skill level, gear, level, there was no incentive for anyone that owned a castle and a massive army to kill some random dude on a field, but if that dude went around calling everyone names and being rude that situation quickly changed, your reputation actually meant something, if you didnt want to get involved in wars and not get ganked by enemies then you joined a clan that didnt provoke others and wasnt involved in wars.
Ill be waiting for the time when people start calling each other names and spamming "Anal Dirge" and all sorts of nonsense without fear of anything happening to them cause it doesnt matter you are just a number and you can't do anything to me, just like in WoW, anyone can be a douche cause everything is throw away and doesnt really matter as long as I am having fun, there is no roleplaying game whatsoever.
Not even remotely close to what I was saying.
I was going to structure a response, but reading your reply makes me wonder if you even bothered to read my post, at all?
How many games with World PvP are balanced, have real incentives, and are not ruined by a gear treadmill? Probably the most famous one of recent history would be either Darkfall, or Shadowbane. However in both games you could get 1shotted simply for not being high enough into the game.
WvW has ganking, but it is of a very different sort than other world pvp games. Regardless of your lvl, you can try and gank someone and have that person completely turn around and dominate you through superior skills. Very few games have that, VERY few.
As for war examples, you may want to do some reading through military history. There's many examples of a side with superior 'power' losing to a side with inferior numbers and equipment. Vietnam was one of them. Sure, you could try and shoot the guy w/ a knife with a bazooka, but you could miss, you could blow yourself up, and you could still get stabbed.
It's not like how in other games where your magic sword of raids-a-lot basically has enough power to whipe out a village. If you wanna go ruin that guy's day, you better be sure you're good enough to do so, and that he doesn't have any tricks up his sleave. Personally, I'm going to enjoy watching people try and gank me in WvW, only to be thrown off a cliff.
I dont know what is your point what you just posted is exactly what I said in my post, but Id rather have that experience in the open world outside of an instance where a war can break out anywhere not just in the predetermined place the game tells you, you can win.
There is a lot more strategy involved, do you launch a campaign and go to your enemies territory and wage a war, did they do that and just found you, are they trying to siege down your fortresss, are they killing people in your village ruining your economy. To me is a lot more fun. Other than that yeah sorry maybe I misunderstood your post I agree and what you describe happens in open world, it just has a lot more complexity than in a closed environment when your world is your battleground. Again my opinion if you think WvW closed environment is better than I respectfully disagree.
Level/gear based game + FFA pvp = fail. FFA needs to be (player) skill based or it just doesn't work and the result is griefers rampart. Even a fresh newbie with good reflexes should have a change to beat any player in game, this is why I support manual targeting instead of autoaim bullshit. This is the biggest single thing where Darkfall failed to deliver.
Hopefully Planetside 2 is as good as they say. We could use a new real pvpMMO.
Level/gear based game + FFA pvp = fail. FFA needs to be (player) skill based or it just doesn't work and the result is griefers rampart. Even a fresh newbie with good reflexes should have a change to beat any player in game, this is why I support manual targeting instead of autoaim bullshit.
I don't see how the targetting system affects PvP balance between newbies and veterans, but otherwise you are quite right. That's why FFA PvP ends as a gank fest in all MMOs that have it without harsh restrictions.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
For me FFA open world PVP with full loot should be in every MMORPG.. any game without it in some form is missing somthing amazing... I jut love the extra thrill it brings to the game.
The WvWvW in GW2 and persistant battleground in TSW and are probally spme of the best alternatives I have come accross in a modern themepark game.. Mainly because the PVP has a purpose.. having a reason to fight other people helps a lot. Dont get me wrong its good to just have mindless deathmatches now and then but it gets boring fast..
Still for me games without FFA open world full loot pvp will always be missing somthing really good..
Level/gear based game + FFA pvp = fail. FFA needs to be (player) skill based or it just doesn't work and the result is griefers rampart. Even a fresh newbie with good reflexes should have a change to beat any player in game, this is why I support manual targeting instead of autoaim bullshit.
I don't see how the targetting system affects PvP balance between newbies and veterans, but otherwise you are quite right. That's why FFA PvP ends as a gank fest in all MMOs that have it without harsh restrictions.
I actually disagree to some extent with what busdriver said and I think that what you are saying falls on this framework, I dont think a level one player should be able to go toe to toe with a veteran player, adding twitch combat is not the solution to this, you still have to take into account gear acquired, quality of gear, a cracked wooden shield is not gonna protect you against a direct hit from a prestine crafted steel mace ( this doesnt stop your friend from just crafting you a pristine steel shield mind you ), instead of trying to create this scenario where everyone is equal and is twitch based or whatever gimmick.
I think instead developers should aim to provide functions that everyone can use from day 0 to be useful even against a veteran player, so if you started yesterday and joined an ongoing war you can't be expected to go toe to toe with a guy in full plate armour, steel sword and shield etc.. but maybe you are quick because your wearing toilet paper armour, you may be able to distract him and land a couple of hits but it will certainly not kill him. But you can focus your usefullness somewhere else maybe pickup a bow and help your archers with a rain of arrows that will still damage and cripple even a guy with lots of armor that you cant take 1 on 1.
This same thing happens in EVE, when you start with a small ship you can't really take on a capital ship by yourself, but you can still be useful to your corporation by being a tackler and disrupting said capital ship while the bigger ships with more firepower actually take it down.
I annoys me a little bit that people are locked in this mindset that the game needs to tell you , you are at war as soon as you login, you need to kill the other faction, it doesnt matter why, your just at war, you are the hero, go and kill everything you see and this is the problem and where I see a big design flaw, it should be up to the player to decide whether he wants to get involved in some war or not. If you are not prepared for war then you shouldnt be part of it, this is why open world pvp doesnt really work in theme parks, because everyone is supposed to be this hero that needs to go to war with some other faction.
If I am a farmer with a pitchfork am I really expected to go toe to toe with a guy that has been waging war for decades, I dont know, this is what theme parks tell me, that with my grey armor and grey weapon and no experience whatsoever I am some sort of hero, and that I should go and kill anyone I see that isnt part of my faction. And if they one shot me its unfair, i am the hero after all. Let players decide their own wars and their own factions.
When 99% of the people who bemoan FFA pvp on these forums, why does it always come across like they have never actually played a FFA pvp game for more than five seconds flat? Anyway....
Is WvW better than open world pvp? For some it is, for others it is not, it is a completely subjective thing. You may prefer WvW, I may prefer open world. It is down to the individual player.
Is WvW "better" for a game trying to push a more e-sport ethos? More than likely yes, it probably is. Is WvW better for a world simulator style mmorpg? Nope, open world adds the mechanics needed for interactions between the core world driving mechanics. So clearly open world is better for that.
As for ganking, that occurs just as much in non open world games. I have been involved in more lopsided ganks in themepark games than I have ever been in or seen in games like DF and UO. I have in fairness seen a lot og ganks in EVE, but then should that many people be crammed onto one server in other games then it would be relative no doubt.
With regards to the whole niche thing, so what if one is more niche than another? If popularity alone decides what is better then we may as well just destroy every game other than WoW. Personally though, I'd rather have some options in the market place, others seemingly do not share that view.
Oh and if people think the style of pvp is the major issues that the likes of DF and MO have had, then they really could not be more wrong. Bugs, inept companies, insane grinds, lack of skill caps and lack of noob friendliness are the key issues.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The real reason open world PvP is so entertaining for a lot of people isn't that they can get to gank others, though there are plenty who enjoy that particular activity.
It's about the freedom and creativity that goes into it. WvW is so structured - it might as well be a sports match. In fact, it feels like a sports match. It's nothing like a real war - and war is a very interesting thing to behold and participate in, when it's just a game.
In war, you can't predict much - and you have to improvise constantly - and there is NEVER a level playing field. That's why you have to be as creative as possible to stand a chance.
The problem in almost all games that try to implement open world PvP - is that they simply don't put forth the effort to come up with a set of rules and conditions that can get it into a managable and enjoyable space. In "reality" there are consequences to killing people - and that's why we aren't saturated in gankers. We need to represent similar consequences in computer games in a way that makes sense.
ArcheAge looks like the most interesting game with open world PvP on the horizon - and it looks like it COULD be one of the first games to take open world PvP to the next level.
open pvp is great for a number of reasons, and these days a lot of open pvp games give the option of pve servers. So players get the best of both worlds.
Unfortunately what GW2 did was only give people the option for a pve server (sorry it's true - compare a WoW pve server to a GW 2 server)
Say what you will about open pvp i.e. gankers, griefers etc. it's fun and exciting. Not everyone likes to take part in zerg vs zerg battles or e-sport 5v5's.
I always liked open pvp because there was the aspect of holding grudges with people, getting into actual clan wars on the open field etc
none of that will be possible in GW2 which is sad. But honestly, I believe they would have to charge a sub fee if they wanted to implement open pvp.
open pvp is great for a number of reasons, and these days a lot of open pvp games give the option of pve servers. So players get the best of both worlds.
Unfortunately what GW2 did was only give people the option for a pve server (sorry it's true - compare a WoW pve server to a GW 2 server)
Say what you will about open pvp i.e. gankers, griefers etc. it's fun and exciting. Not everyone likes to take part in zerg vs zerg battles or e-sport 5v5's.
I always liked open pvp because there was the aspect of holding grudges with people, getting into actual clan wars on the open field etc
none of that will be possible in GW2 which is sad. But honestly, I believe they would have to charge a sub fee if they wanted to implement open pvp.
too sad sweetheart you are just wanted to ganked other player by outleveling them, just imagine while you are busy fighting the shatterer some people come and ganked you WHEN YOU SUPPOSED TO HELPING EACH OTHER KILLING THE DAMN DRAGON. open pvp server will kill the whole point of DE.
I feel like there is nothing better then a WvW or even better WvWvW. There is nothing better then having a world you identify with and take pride in. As a big DAoC fan, pride in my realm was so strong that its been hard to even relate it to other MMOs. Open World PvP just promotes ganking and non-cooperation.
Hope I feel that way again about another game... *tear*
Yea this is the true OWPvP...outlevel everyone and gank...how educated opinion and I am not referring to the "google translator english"
Come on, that's what happens in ANY open world PvP game. Not saying evertybody is doing it, but it only takes a couple of asshats to ruin the game for a dozen or more lower level people who have no chance in hell to fight back.
And I hope you write Indonesian as well as that person writes English... ;-)
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
open pvp is great for a number of reasons, and these days a lot of open pvp games give the option of pve servers. So players get the best of both worlds.
Unfortunately what GW2 did was only give people the option for a pve server (sorry it's true - compare a WoW pve server to a GW 2 server)
Say what you will about open pvp i.e. gankers, griefers etc. it's fun and exciting. Not everyone likes to take part in zerg vs zerg battles or e-sport 5v5's.
I always liked open pvp because there was the aspect of holding grudges with people, getting into actual clan wars on the open field etc
none of that will be possible in GW2 which is sad. But honestly, I believe they would have to charge a sub fee if they wanted to implement open pvp.
too sad sweetheart you are just wanted to ganked other player by outleveling them, just imagine while you are busy fighting the shatterer some people come and ganked you WHEN YOU SUPPOSED TO HELPING EACH OTHER KILLING THE DAMN DRAGON. open pvp server will kill the whole point of DE.
Yea this is the true OWPvP...outlevel everyone and gank...how educated opinion and I am not referring to the "google translator english"
you can't blame me, just blame this keyboard. but its the truth OWPVP is not suitable for gw 2 core gameplay design.
too sad sweetheart you are just wanted to ganked other player by outleveling them, just imagine while you are busy fighting the shatterer some people come and ganked you WHEN YOU SUPPOSED TO HELPING EACH OTHER KILLING THE DAMN DRAGON. open pvp server will kill the whole point of DE.
Yea this is the true OWPvP...outlevel everyone and gank...how educated opinion and I am not referring to the "google translator english"
It's the mentality of players. I hate ganking lowbies. I don't like to make others suffer or anything like that at all, but every time someone says open world pvp, everyone starts going "GANKER GANKER horrible player. You have 0 skills, so you want to grief lowbies. If you where are real pvp'er you would love WVW bcause it takes real skill. Loser. Blah blah blah"
The funny part is that i bet most of these players are so sensitive that even if they get ganked once in their life, with a game with 0 death penalty, they start so much QQ that get it gets annoying. "OMG i got killed while doing my quests on pvp server, despite the fact that i came here on my own will, but will whine about it on forums"
To me, "open world" pvp doesn't have to mean no safe areas at all. I prefer that way more than 0 rules, all out gank. But unfortunatly, i don't consider WVW either large or meaningfull enough to be called "world pvp". It's a medium sized area which is fun for a while, but i don't see myself playing after a 1 or 2 matches. As i've said in the past, while it's better than areas like Illum, Fusang, Conquest, etc, it's still to inclosed and "overgrown Battleground" IMHO. Even Planetside 2's size scope is so great that i consider it owpvp. If WVW was atleast that big, id' change my mind. But to each their own.
I love pvp if its balanced for the most part but it always depends on its implementation.
Have tested and played over 350+ mmos so far so I'm gonna pick only a few examples:
- There are pvp mmos that are room based like Lost Saga, Rakion, Fists of FU and so on...
I like those due to the options and gamemodes they have.
- Then PvE mmos with raids or area pvp like City of Heroes/Villains (PvP Zones, Arenas and so on), Guild Wars (Heroes Battle, Random Battle, GuildvsGuild, Faction Wars, Heroes Ascent, Team Arena and more) and other.
I like these because they are giving you a choice to enter areas at your own risk OR enter battles you would like to do.
- Then there were many open pvp world based mmos like Karos Online, partially WoW, Rappelz to name a few.
These were frustrating because of the nature of the players that not only misused the possibility by ganging lower players, camping corpses so they won't be able to respawn or ganging someone while they are talking to a NPC.
No one can really tell me that it's fun, to enter a game at level 1 and get killed in a supposed "safe area" by a level 10 that is staying close to the tutorial npc, killing everyone that enters the game while they are reading what the NPC tells them abotu controls (Karos online was like this...).
Also losing gears you needed hours to get only because someone decided to kill you out of fun (their fun not yours), only because they CAN and because they LIKE to frustrate others.
I remember my colleguae went into a mine in karos online started mining because it was a "safe area" and one couldnt get killed while mining. Well... that was the case for melee enemies but not for archers.
While you were in the mine all of sudden arrows killed you. You lose gold, xp and equipment and had to walk the whole way back to the mine if you wanted to complete your quest there or gather materials.
In Rappelz which I loved at first when it came out back then.
I decide to join the game a few years later again, logging in, taking my highest character (in her 30s or so and in a PvE server), walking like 10 minutes to a npc. I noticed a guy is near but I'm only saying "Hi " and keep talking to the npc.
No response... I make two steps to my quests direction and I'm all of sudden held on spot by a spell.
I ask what this is all about, he starts calling me "noob", swearing at me and kills me even I tried to fight back (I was obviously VERY low compared to him".
After a while I'm going back to the area carefully trying to finish my quest, I see from afar that he is still in the area taking out all the low levels one after another.
Well I logged out and was done with the game again. Why? I talked with others in game and no one really cared cause its "part of the game".
These are only two examples from 2 of all the games I experienced and you can be sure there were more mmos that were bad when it comes to this.
So I'm very happy that WvsWvsW exists the way it does cause I know when I enter there I can have fun and even if I die it was my decision to enter the area and participate and a risk I was willing to take.
too sad sweetheart you are just wanted to ganked other player by outleveling them, just imagine while you are busy fighting the shatterer some people come and ganked you WHEN YOU SUPPOSED TO HELPING EACH OTHER KILLING THE DAMN DRAGON. open pvp server will kill the whole point of DE.
Yea this is the true OWPvP...outlevel everyone and gank...how educated opinion and I am not referring to the "google translator english"
It's the mentality of players. I hate ganking lowbies. I don't like to make others suffer or anything like that at all, but every time someone says open world pvp, everyone starts going "GANKER GANKER horrible player. You have 0 skills, so you want to grief lowbies. If you where are real pvp'er you would love WVW bcause it takes real skill. Loser. Blah blah blah"
The funny part is that i bet most of these players are so sensitive that even if they get ganked once in their life, with a game with 0 death penalty, they start so much QQ that get it gets annoying. "OMG i got killed while doing my quests on pvp server, despite the fact that i came here on my own will, but will whine about it on forums"
To me, "open world" pvp doesn't have to mean no safe areas at all. I prefer that way more than 0 rules, all out gank. But unfortunatly, i don't consider WVW either large or meaningfull enough to be called "world pvp". It's a medium sized area which is fun for a while, but i don't see myself playing after a 1 or 2 matches. As i've said in the past, while it's better than areas like Illum, Fusang, Conquest, etc, it's still to inclosed and "overgrown Battleground" IMHO. Even Planetside 2's size scope is so great that i consider it owpvp. If WVW was atleast that big, id' change my mind. But to each their own.
Like 5 posts above, I said something similar
Yeah, i liked your post. Another funny thing is, if i can call WVW OWPVP, then why can't the pvp areas that i meantion above like Fusang be the same? See, but i don't.
That's the thing though. WvW isn't 'fair' or 'balanced'. The devs have even said as much, to the point of saying 'if you don't like it, tough sh*t',
Originally posted by Garvon3
Why do we keep calling it WvW?
Why can't we call it what it really is? RvR? It's like WoW rebranding instancing as "phasing".
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
When 99% of the people who bemoan FFA pvp on these forums, why does it always come across like they have never actually played a FFA pvp game for more than five seconds flat? Anyway...
WvWvW has an autobalance feature. While I doubt it will be perfect it should limit one server from destroying others. After each 2 week period, servers are ranked and placed into battlegroups with other servers of similar ranking. While a server might be able to game the system one week, it would balance out eventually.
WvWvW is different from RvR as you are not playing against the same people on the same server all the time. The system above means you will constantly have new opponents.
I'm not completely against FFA pvp but I find little reason to subject myself to ganking for no reason. I have yet to see a pvp game that had real world objectives that needed to be captured and controlled (substantial objectives, not just a tower that give +1 str for owning it). I'll use WoW as an example of what they could of done because I think it is the best layout for if this had been implemented. Crossroads in Barrens was a common target for alliance pvp'rs to hit. What if the NPCs were replaced with Alliance npcs, with Alliance quests, instead of just griefing the barrens lowbies from completing quests. (barrens might be a bad example as it's a lowbie center that maybe should be exempt but higher level areas would be fair game.) This could also work as a more immersive quest lines as you bolster the defences of the camp by harvesting raw materials from nodes or mobs. DoaC had some of this in their RvR area, Lotro also but they weren't game altering events. The major drawback to this system would be that 1/2 (or 2/3 if RvRvR) of the content the devs make is unavailable at all times even though alot of the defense quests could be pretty much copied from 1 faction to another. I have heard of WWII Online, I haven't yet tried it, as it is a persistant world with a varying front line although I don't know if moving the line has any effect than just owning more territory.
If you focus the FFA player away from individual conquest into a more team mentality, then I will surely give it a try. When 1 person (or a small team) is out just to cause grief to players for personal gain and e-peening, then I won't touch the game.
On the other hand, GW2s system of capping levels in all areas would make for rather interesting attempts of griefers and them being chased off by rallied defenders.
Comments
Looking at it from a sportsman's point of view, yeah, clean and fair is better. But war is hell. If there was a real war, all bets are off. I think that is what the proponents of Open World PvP enjoy. It is more realistic. Some people like to play games, others are looking for a fantasy.
You know those evil orcs would kill your babies. You might even do the same to them if it meant saving your families' lives.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
The pop is still nothing compared to every other MMO out there, Darkfall is still a niche game, just like all open world PvP games are.
Yes EVE is massive ffa PvP, thats why most of the players avoid null sec. Most of the players are in high sec doing missions or mining and playing with the markets, this has been confirmed by CCP.
Bascially CCP was able to attract the niche crowd, by offering them a way to gank. A funny thing about that, is CCP expanded on the null sec area, because of pressure from the highly vocal niche crowd, but most players still avoided it.
Face facts guys, you will always be a niche crowd.
Following your logic, any feature that isnt in WoW shouldnt be implemented because "who cares about a tiny niche of players?", I mean WoW has the popularity and the most players of pretty much every other MMO combined.
It has nothing to do with Gank, I understand you may have limited experience in actual open world PVP, as most people who have only played theme parks ( AKA WoW and derivatives ) its easy to not understand that there is more to open world PVP than ganking.
Open world PVP doesnt mean just ganking at random locations it also means adding persistance to the events you are playing in these instances, it means having RvR actually affect your server persistently. Join Instance -> You have got more resource numbers than your enemy -> You Win -> destroy instance -> rinse and repeat. That is a lot more fun than actually having a persistent world experience where people have to coordinate to take back bits of the server for their faction or whatever, and actually see an effect rather than this Counter Strike like model we have today. EVE is a great example of this, imagine if everytime you got soverignty it just popped up a messsage saying you won and just reset the instance, absolute garbage.
Again this is my opinion, your entitled to yours but dont try and make it sound like its a fact because you dont know any better and are just focusing on a side effect of having world pvp and not what world pvp is actually about.
That's the thing though. WvW isn't 'fair' or 'balanced'. The devs have even said as much, to the point of saying 'if you don't like it, tough sh*t',
The difference here, is that in traditional OPvP games there is such an imbalance, as to players are basically either getting 1 shotted (zero chance of success), or ganking (nearly 100% chance of success). There's really very little middle ground. This is compounded by the gear treadmill most games have.
GW2 & WvW removes this. Like in a real war, you can go after other people and murder them. However, unless you want to risk death, you better make sure you bring some backup, or superior firepower. Like a real war, the side w/ superior tactics and strategy, has the best chance of winning.
The way WvW exists currently, you can most definitely sneak up on someone and kill them in seconds. However, you need to be smart about it, and there is most definitely a risk. Hell, I spent the end of last BWE running around WvW either solo or duo. We were looking for the open world dungeon, and were severely outnumbered. The enemy easily had over 100 people running around, we had maybe 10. It was scary as hell, and we spent a lot of time trying to sneak passed the enemy, trying to figure out if we had been seen, making judgement calls about whether or not to kill a straggler (and possibly face the wraith of his friends).
This type of situation most definitely exists in WvW, and is probably the most important factor of OPvP in terms of fun. It's where the excitement comes from. With the exception of people who enjoy ganking. Really the only lack of 'enjoyment' here, is you can't force someone to 'rage quit', or grief / gank them out of the game. Personally, that's not my thing. I don't care if I get the best of someone and they go back to doing PvE. I care about what's happening in the mists, and if people leave, that's no different than people logging off.
Really open world PvP just caters to the ganking trolls who get their little buddies together and run around killing people with less numbers. In my opinion that is not PvP... These are not the kind of people you want to cater your game towards and the community will be better off for it. What we do have is an even playing field in WvW, which sure you can gank, but where does that really get you if your not going for objectives? I am yet to understand those who enjoy facerolling in open world for no benefit... Bring on GW2.
Safehouse Gaming up and running at: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnKd0Hk85CQ_N04Ae7v5zZg
So what you are saying with the highlighted is that it is exactly the same thing then? That in WvW you better bring superior fire power and more people to gank others and make sure you win. Basically text book ganking is what you suggest.
If the problem is having safe areas for people that do not want to engage in PVP then there are other ways, and again ganking lower level people is not the purpose of open world PVP its attacking your enemy that is the purpose, there are many games that implement incentives to NOT attack lower level people either by penalties to you or by protecting massive level gaps.
Like in a real war, if you are fighting for your side with a pocket knife do you think your enemy will stop and say "damn I have an RPG, but the guy just has a pocket knife I guess I will just drop this right here and fight fairly" the whole point is that if you are involved in war you better be prepared, pointless ganking is not world pvp, world pvp is actively engaging in a war against someone if you do that it doesnt matter if you are level 1 or lvl 100 or have super human skills.
Lineage 2 did this pretty damn well, there were pretty hefty penalties for killing someone that didnt fight back, if you declared a war on someone then you are fair game regardless of skill level, gear, level, there was no incentive for anyone that owned a castle and a massive army to kill some random dude on a field, but if that dude went around calling everyone names and being rude that situation quickly changed, your reputation actually meant something, if you didnt want to get involved in wars and not get ganked by enemies then you joined a clan that didnt provoke others and wasnt involved in wars.
Ill be waiting for the time when people start calling each other names and spamming "Anal Dirge" and all sorts of nonsense without fear of anything happening to them cause it doesnt matter you are just a number and you can't do anything to me, just like in WoW, anyone can be a douche cause everything is throw away and doesnt really matter as long as I am having fun, there is no roleplaying game whatsoever.
Edit: Real wars are not about balanced sides, its not about same numbers, same weapons, same stats, its about using your resources efficiently and making sure you have a strategy with whatever you got that will make you win, if you walk alone into no man's land you better have a reason to do so other than just expecting to be killed. Like other people said and I agree Open World doesnt fit into GW2 because it just lacks the infrastructure for open world pvp to actually work, and I am not saying it works in Darkfall or Mortal Online either, but it damn sure works in EVE and its awesome. Terrible implementation of World PVP != Open World PVP is bad.
Currently Waiting for Guild Wars 2.
This, is what i will be missing in GW2
Not even remotely close to what I was saying.
I was going to structure a response, but reading your reply makes me wonder if you even bothered to read my post, at all?
How many games with World PvP are balanced, have real incentives, and are not ruined by a gear treadmill? Probably the most famous one of recent history would be either Darkfall, or Shadowbane. However in both games you could get 1shotted simply for not being high enough into the game.
WvW has ganking, but it is of a very different sort than other world pvp games. Regardless of your lvl, you can try and gank someone and have that person completely turn around and dominate you through superior skills. Very few games have that, VERY few.
As for war examples, you may want to do some reading through military history. There's many examples of a side with superior 'power' losing to a side with inferior numbers and equipment. Vietnam was one of them. Sure, you could try and shoot the guy w/ a knife with a bazooka, but you could miss, you could blow yourself up, and you could still get stabbed.
It's not like how in other games where your magic sword of raids-a-lot basically has enough power to whipe out a village. If you wanna go ruin that guy's day, you better be sure you're good enough to do so, and that he doesn't have any tricks up his sleave. Personally, I'm going to enjoy watching people try and gank me in WvW, only to be thrown off a cliff.
I dont know what is your point what you just posted is exactly what I said in my post, but Id rather have that experience in the open world outside of an instance where a war can break out anywhere not just in the predetermined place the game tells you, you can win.
There is a lot more strategy involved, do you launch a campaign and go to your enemies territory and wage a war, did they do that and just found you, are they trying to siege down your fortresss, are they killing people in your village ruining your economy. To me is a lot more fun. Other than that yeah sorry maybe I misunderstood your post I agree and what you describe happens in open world, it just has a lot more complexity than in a closed environment when your world is your battleground. Again my opinion if you think WvW closed environment is better than I respectfully disagree.
Level/gear based game + FFA pvp = fail. FFA needs to be (player) skill based or it just doesn't work and the result is griefers rampart. Even a fresh newbie with good reflexes should have a change to beat any player in game, this is why I support manual targeting instead of autoaim bullshit. This is the biggest single thing where Darkfall failed to deliver.
Hopefully Planetside 2 is as good as they say. We could use a new real pvpMMO.
I don't see how the targetting system affects PvP balance between newbies and veterans, but otherwise you are quite right. That's why FFA PvP ends as a gank fest in all MMOs that have it without harsh restrictions.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
For me FFA open world PVP with full loot should be in every MMORPG.. any game without it in some form is missing somthing amazing... I jut love the extra thrill it brings to the game.
The WvWvW in GW2 and persistant battleground in TSW and are probally spme of the best alternatives I have come accross in a modern themepark game.. Mainly because the PVP has a purpose.. having a reason to fight other people helps a lot. Dont get me wrong its good to just have mindless deathmatches now and then but it gets boring fast..
Still for me games without FFA open world full loot pvp will always be missing somthing really good..
I actually disagree to some extent with what busdriver said and I think that what you are saying falls on this framework, I dont think a level one player should be able to go toe to toe with a veteran player, adding twitch combat is not the solution to this, you still have to take into account gear acquired, quality of gear, a cracked wooden shield is not gonna protect you against a direct hit from a prestine crafted steel mace ( this doesnt stop your friend from just crafting you a pristine steel shield mind you ), instead of trying to create this scenario where everyone is equal and is twitch based or whatever gimmick.
I think instead developers should aim to provide functions that everyone can use from day 0 to be useful even against a veteran player, so if you started yesterday and joined an ongoing war you can't be expected to go toe to toe with a guy in full plate armour, steel sword and shield etc.. but maybe you are quick because your wearing toilet paper armour, you may be able to distract him and land a couple of hits but it will certainly not kill him. But you can focus your usefullness somewhere else maybe pickup a bow and help your archers with a rain of arrows that will still damage and cripple even a guy with lots of armor that you cant take 1 on 1.
This same thing happens in EVE, when you start with a small ship you can't really take on a capital ship by yourself, but you can still be useful to your corporation by being a tackler and disrupting said capital ship while the bigger ships with more firepower actually take it down.
I annoys me a little bit that people are locked in this mindset that the game needs to tell you , you are at war as soon as you login, you need to kill the other faction, it doesnt matter why, your just at war, you are the hero, go and kill everything you see and this is the problem and where I see a big design flaw, it should be up to the player to decide whether he wants to get involved in some war or not. If you are not prepared for war then you shouldnt be part of it, this is why open world pvp doesnt really work in theme parks, because everyone is supposed to be this hero that needs to go to war with some other faction.
If I am a farmer with a pitchfork am I really expected to go toe to toe with a guy that has been waging war for decades, I dont know, this is what theme parks tell me, that with my grey armor and grey weapon and no experience whatsoever I am some sort of hero, and that I should go and kill anyone I see that isnt part of my faction. And if they one shot me its unfair, i am the hero after all. Let players decide their own wars and their own factions.
When 99% of the people who bemoan FFA pvp on these forums, why does it always come across like they have never actually played a FFA pvp game for more than five seconds flat? Anyway....
Is WvW better than open world pvp? For some it is, for others it is not, it is a completely subjective thing. You may prefer WvW, I may prefer open world. It is down to the individual player.
Is WvW "better" for a game trying to push a more e-sport ethos? More than likely yes, it probably is. Is WvW better for a world simulator style mmorpg? Nope, open world adds the mechanics needed for interactions between the core world driving mechanics. So clearly open world is better for that.
As for ganking, that occurs just as much in non open world games. I have been involved in more lopsided ganks in themepark games than I have ever been in or seen in games like DF and UO. I have in fairness seen a lot og ganks in EVE, but then should that many people be crammed onto one server in other games then it would be relative no doubt.
With regards to the whole niche thing, so what if one is more niche than another? If popularity alone decides what is better then we may as well just destroy every game other than WoW. Personally though, I'd rather have some options in the market place, others seemingly do not share that view.
Oh and if people think the style of pvp is the major issues that the likes of DF and MO have had, then they really could not be more wrong. Bugs, inept companies, insane grinds, lack of skill caps and lack of noob friendliness are the key issues.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The real reason open world PvP is so entertaining for a lot of people isn't that they can get to gank others, though there are plenty who enjoy that particular activity.
It's about the freedom and creativity that goes into it. WvW is so structured - it might as well be a sports match. In fact, it feels like a sports match. It's nothing like a real war - and war is a very interesting thing to behold and participate in, when it's just a game.
In war, you can't predict much - and you have to improvise constantly - and there is NEVER a level playing field. That's why you have to be as creative as possible to stand a chance.
The problem in almost all games that try to implement open world PvP - is that they simply don't put forth the effort to come up with a set of rules and conditions that can get it into a managable and enjoyable space. In "reality" there are consequences to killing people - and that's why we aren't saturated in gankers. We need to represent similar consequences in computer games in a way that makes sense.
ArcheAge looks like the most interesting game with open world PvP on the horizon - and it looks like it COULD be one of the first games to take open world PvP to the next level.
open pvp is great for a number of reasons, and these days a lot of open pvp games give the option of pve servers. So players get the best of both worlds.
Unfortunately what GW2 did was only give people the option for a pve server (sorry it's true - compare a WoW pve server to a GW 2 server)
Say what you will about open pvp i.e. gankers, griefers etc. it's fun and exciting. Not everyone likes to take part in zerg vs zerg battles or e-sport 5v5's.
I always liked open pvp because there was the aspect of holding grudges with people, getting into actual clan wars on the open field etc
none of that will be possible in GW2 which is sad. But honestly, I believe they would have to charge a sub fee if they wanted to implement open pvp.
too sad sweetheart you are just wanted to ganked other player by outleveling them, just imagine while you are busy fighting the shatterer some people come and ganked you WHEN YOU SUPPOSED TO HELPING EACH OTHER KILLING THE DAMN DRAGON. open pvp server will kill the whole point of DE.
I feel like there is nothing better then a WvW or even better WvWvW. There is nothing better then having a world you identify with and take pride in. As a big DAoC fan, pride in my realm was so strong that its been hard to even relate it to other MMOs. Open World PvP just promotes ganking and non-cooperation.
Hope I feel that way again about another game... *tear*
Come on, that's what happens in ANY open world PvP game. Not saying evertybody is doing it, but it only takes a couple of asshats to ruin the game for a dozen or more lower level people who have no chance in hell to fight back.
And I hope you write Indonesian as well as that person writes English... ;-)
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
you can't blame me, just blame this keyboard. but its the truth OWPVP is not suitable for gw 2 core gameplay design.
It's the mentality of players. I hate ganking lowbies. I don't like to make others suffer or anything like that at all, but every time someone says open world pvp, everyone starts going "GANKER GANKER horrible player. You have 0 skills, so you want to grief lowbies. If you where are real pvp'er you would love WVW bcause it takes real skill. Loser. Blah blah blah"
The funny part is that i bet most of these players are so sensitive that even if they get ganked once in their life, with a game with 0 death penalty, they start so much QQ that get it gets annoying. "OMG i got killed while doing my quests on pvp server, despite the fact that i came here on my own will, but will whine about it on forums"
To me, "open world" pvp doesn't have to mean no safe areas at all. I prefer that way more than 0 rules, all out gank. But unfortunatly, i don't consider WVW either large or meaningfull enough to be called "world pvp". It's a medium sized area which is fun for a while, but i don't see myself playing after a 1 or 2 matches. As i've said in the past, while it's better than areas like Illum, Fusang, Conquest, etc, it's still to inclosed and "overgrown Battleground" IMHO. Even Planetside 2's size scope is so great that i consider it owpvp. If WVW was atleast that big, id' change my mind. But to each their own.
I love pvp if its balanced for the most part but it always depends on its implementation.
Have tested and played over 350+ mmos so far so I'm gonna pick only a few examples:
- There are pvp mmos that are room based like Lost Saga, Rakion, Fists of FU and so on...
I like those due to the options and gamemodes they have.
- Then PvE mmos with raids or area pvp like City of Heroes/Villains (PvP Zones, Arenas and so on), Guild Wars (Heroes Battle, Random Battle, GuildvsGuild, Faction Wars, Heroes Ascent, Team Arena and more) and other.
I like these because they are giving you a choice to enter areas at your own risk OR enter battles you would like to do.
- Then there were many open pvp world based mmos like Karos Online, partially WoW, Rappelz to name a few.
These were frustrating because of the nature of the players that not only misused the possibility by ganging lower players, camping corpses so they won't be able to respawn or ganging someone while they are talking to a NPC.
No one can really tell me that it's fun, to enter a game at level 1 and get killed in a supposed "safe area" by a level 10 that is staying close to the tutorial npc, killing everyone that enters the game while they are reading what the NPC tells them abotu controls (Karos online was like this...).
Also losing gears you needed hours to get only because someone decided to kill you out of fun (their fun not yours), only because they CAN and because they LIKE to frustrate others.
I remember my colleguae went into a mine in karos online started mining because it was a "safe area" and one couldnt get killed while mining. Well... that was the case for melee enemies but not for archers.
While you were in the mine all of sudden arrows killed you. You lose gold, xp and equipment and had to walk the whole way back to the mine if you wanted to complete your quest there or gather materials.
In Rappelz which I loved at first when it came out back then.
I decide to join the game a few years later again, logging in, taking my highest character (in her 30s or so and in a PvE server), walking like 10 minutes to a npc. I noticed a guy is near but I'm only saying "Hi
" and keep talking to the npc.
No response... I make two steps to my quests direction and I'm all of sudden held on spot by a spell.
I ask what this is all about, he starts calling me "noob", swearing at me and kills me even I tried to fight back (I was obviously VERY low compared to him".
After a while I'm going back to the area carefully trying to finish my quest, I see from afar that he is still in the area taking out all the low levels one after another.
Well I logged out and was done with the game again. Why? I talked with others in game and no one really cared cause its "part of the game".
These are only two examples from 2 of all the games I experienced and you can be sure there were more mmos that were bad when it comes to this.
So I'm very happy that WvsWvsW exists the way it does cause I know when I enter there I can have fun and even if I die it was my decision to enter the area and participate and a risk I was willing to take.
So to sum it up:
- having no choice = bad
- having a choice = good
Yeah, i liked your post. Another funny thing is, if i can call WVW OWPVP, then why can't the pvp areas that i meantion above like Fusang be the same? See, but i don't.
WvWvW has an autobalance feature. While I doubt it will be perfect it should limit one server from destroying others. After each 2 week period, servers are ranked and placed into battlegroups with other servers of similar ranking. While a server might be able to game the system one week, it would balance out eventually.
WvWvW is different from RvR as you are not playing against the same people on the same server all the time. The system above means you will constantly have new opponents.
I'm not completely against FFA pvp but I find little reason to subject myself to ganking for no reason. I have yet to see a pvp game that had real world objectives that needed to be captured and controlled (substantial objectives, not just a tower that give +1 str for owning it). I'll use WoW as an example of what they could of done because I think it is the best layout for if this had been implemented. Crossroads in Barrens was a common target for alliance pvp'rs to hit. What if the NPCs were replaced with Alliance npcs, with Alliance quests, instead of just griefing the barrens lowbies from completing quests. (barrens might be a bad example as it's a lowbie center that maybe should be exempt but higher level areas would be fair game.) This could also work as a more immersive quest lines as you bolster the defences of the camp by harvesting raw materials from nodes or mobs. DoaC had some of this in their RvR area, Lotro also but they weren't game altering events. The major drawback to this system would be that 1/2 (or 2/3 if RvRvR) of the content the devs make is unavailable at all times even though alot of the defense quests could be pretty much copied from 1 faction to another. I have heard of WWII Online, I haven't yet tried it, as it is a persistant world with a varying front line although I don't know if moving the line has any effect than just owning more territory.
If you focus the FFA player away from individual conquest into a more team mentality, then I will surely give it a try. When 1 person (or a small team) is out just to cause grief to players for personal gain and e-peening, then I won't touch the game.
On the other hand, GW2s system of capping levels in all areas would make for rather interesting attempts of griefers and them being chased off by rallied defenders.