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Are modern gamers just too impatient?

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  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Oldschool gamers were just as impatient.  You didn't wait a month for a content patch to make Civ2 or Half-Life fun.  You didn't have minutes of travel time in Lemmings or Sim City.  You didn't sit around waiting for units to heal in Mechwarrior 2 or Star Control 2.

    The only differences are (a) if you visit a game's forums you hear about people quitting (whereas you were ignorant of it happening in early gaming) and (b) MMORPGs can sometimes involve more downtime (which wasn't necessary in early gaming, and usually also isn't necessary for MMORPGs to be fun.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • BACONXBACONX Member UncommonPosts: 253

    Yes, Patience is no longer a virtue in this society. The culture stresses faster, stronger, brighter, bigger- in a word, a disconnection with reality. This reflects itself in gaming as in any other social/techincal avenue.

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Member Posts: 489

    MMOs should be living worlds.

    If they're charging to tell a story and you finish that story then people will get done with the game and move on.

    MMORPGs that want lasting appeal need to focus on being a world, a dangerous world, a world where players want to strive and achieve in without the need for text boxes telling them they did something good.

    I don't blame the MMORPG player. I blame the lazy MMORPG developers for cutting corners.

    a yo ho ho

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Member Posts: 489
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Oldschool gamers were just as impatient.  You didn't wait a month for a content patch to make Civ2 or Half-Life fun.  You didn't have minutes of travel time in Lemmings or Sim City.  You didn't sit around waiting for units to heal in Mechwarrior 2 or Star Control 2.

    The only differences are (a) if you visit a game's forums you hear about people quitting (whereas you were ignorant of it happening in early gaming) and (b) MMORPGs can sometimes involve more downtime (which wasn't necessary in early gaming, and usually also isn't necessary for MMORPGs to be fun.)

    No.

    We old school gamers made our own content, shared our mods with others, extended the games on our terms.

    a yo ho ho

  • SwampRobSwampRob Member UncommonPosts: 1,003

    I can be very patient with a flawed game, but I lack game patience when it comes to progress.

     

    Progression is a key element in every RPG, and if my characters get to a point where they can play for days or weeks without making progress, I lose tolerance with the game very quickly.

     

    In modern games I find this very common at endgame, where you play for weeks and get no upgrades at all.   It's why I often find the leveling up more enjoyable; you get regular and constant progress.

     

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Member CommonPosts: 2,898
    Originally posted by comrademario

    Just reading about a hoarde of people quitting Secret World and saying they're done with the game. This has been released for a couple of weeks now. Rift, SWTOR, D3 and a lot of other games have seen similar comments being made them

    Well first, yes, they are. But that doesn't have anything to do with why people are bailing on these games. They're leaving these games because they aren't well made.

    SWTOR and TSW were both designed as singleplayer games with almost no MM components. So, they're played like singleplayer games, which people usually burn through in a few weeks.

    Their entire gameplay hinges on doing quests, with nothing else to really distract the player. That gets old fast.

    Older MMOs, while being less directed, and slower in many regards, have a plethora of options, and a lot of social oriented, player generated content, which is what keeps people playing. Not quests and "content".

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    Ah, well, we're heading for the Standard Sandbox thread after all.

    Well, at least was better than another hackneyed DamnKids thread.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Member CommonPosts: 2,898
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Ah, well, we're heading for the Standard Sandbox thread after all.

    Well, at least was better than another hackneyed DamnKids thread.

    Having choices and social elements doesn't make a game a sandbox, it makes it an MMO.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf

    No.

    We old school gamers made our own content, shared our mods with others, extended the games on our terms.

    Um, look around.  We're the same humans.  Do you see most modern gamers making mods?  No?  Then why would you believe most veteran gamers made mods?

    The modding community has always been a tiny less-than-1% fraction (probably much lower than 1% actually.)

    So even if you personally made mods for older games, you can't possibly believe a significant portion of the overall playerbases did that back in the day -- or that a significant portion of the games were even capable of that.

    Not trying to badmouth early gamers or anything, but let's be realistic about this shit :P

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Caldrin

    so why are they all addicted to wow clones ? and COD clones?

    Just guessing we've forgotten, amongst all the talk of "generations", that this hobby hasn't existed for even one yet?

    The internet has...barely.

    You're talking in terms of human generations, most others are referring technology generations.

    Still, the mmorpg genre isn't old enough to see any real trends or patterns yet.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Member CommonPosts: 2,898
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf

    No.

    We old school gamers made our own content, shared our mods with others, extended the games on our terms.

    Um, look around.  We're the same humans.  Do you see most modern gamers making mods?  No?  Then why would you believe most veteran gamers made mods?

    Because different types of people played back then.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by dave6660

    You're talking in terms of human generations, most others are referring technology generations.

    Still, the mmorpg genre isn't old enough to see any real trends or patterns yet.

    Didn't the last technological generation die with the Pentiums?  The lines only get more blurry and the time estimates more indistinct after that.  Dual-cores?  Quads? 32-bit? 64-bit?

    I guess you could go with the DirectX versions, but we haven't really seen that much difference between 9 and 11.

    "Generations" for the purposes of this thread, is anyone I can identify with a group younger than I. 

    Entitling me to sneer at the behavior (and blame the degeneration of society upon) the entire MMO generation, cause we played better games before you guys arrived dammit!  All you MMO players are only ruining games in general, everything's gone completely downhill since Pong and Breakout!

    [Ed. it would be generally pointless to do so, however]

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • maplestonemaplestone Member UncommonPosts: 3,099
    Originally posted by comrademario

    So my question is, are modern gamers just too impatient?

    The people who are patient probably don't rush out to play an MMO at launch - and are still patiently waiting in their current MMO of choice.

    ( of course, my question would be whether your assertion that there are an abnormal number of people leaving has any merit; if it doesn't then the rest of this discussion is really moot )

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Because different types of people played back then.

    Are you implying more than 1% of gamers modded games before 2000?  Because that's completely ridiculous.

     

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • andypandyrandypandyr Member UncommonPosts: 89

    Hoards of people leaving Secret World ? ... Not the version I am playing, every time I log in the servers ar full.

    Maybe post some evidence of your " Hoards " claim ..

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Member Posts: 489
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Because different types of people played back then.

    Are you implying more than 1% of gamers modded games before 2000?  Because that's completely ridiculous.

     

     

    More than 1% of gamers modded prior to 2004 I'd wager.

    My entire time playing games like the Sims 1 and any Unreal game was with hundreds of other players who at least tweeked things. 

    My mother used MSPaint to add tags to her mechs in MechWarrior 3 and 4.

    I think game devs didn't mind as much then as they do now. Sims progress from 2 to 3 shows this as well.

    But my point is for MMORPGs to be something more than flash in a pan borefests they need to incorporate the community adding to the game.

    a yo ho ho

  • AldersAlders Member RarePosts: 2,207

    Players and people in general are products of their environments.  We've moved to a point of being able to get any information or entertainment we need at the touch of a button instantly.  I really don't blame them for being so impatient, it's all they've ever known.

    I dare say that if i were a product of todays society, I'd be impatient as well.  I guess I'm just lucky i grew up at a time when cable TV was still new and not everyone had it.  My imagination was all i needed.

    If anything, modern gamers lack imagination to turn what they consider boring into something fun.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by maplestone

    The people who are patient probably don't rush out to play an MMO at launch - and are still patiently waiting in their current MMO of choice.

    Well, I've launched (twelve?) MMOs at last count, because launch day is a lot of fun.  Missed quite a few too, life happens.

    But then I don't sweat small costs, or expect flawless perfection on day one.

    "MMO of choice"?  I've been fighting that one since at least the EQ days; never expected a single title to do it all for me forever.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • madazzmadazz Member RarePosts: 2,100
    Originally posted by comrademario

    Just reading about a hoarde of people quitting Secret World and saying they're done with the game. This has been released for a couple of weeks now. Rift, SWTOR, D3 and a lot of other games have seen similar comments being made them, hell there are even people saying screw GW2 and that they won't go back before it's even friggin launched.

     

    So my question is, are modern gamers just too impatient? I would say 100% of MMOs need time to iron out flaws, rework certain aspects of the game and just grow the thing before it can be considered polished. I know that a game that leaves beta and goes live should have all of these things done in advance, but it wasn't always like that, even WoW needed time to have the game live to gather feedback from players to help improve it. So is it modern gamers at fault (I would suggest that console gamers crossing into MMOs would have a lot less patience than old timers from 10 years ago)? Or should the gaming companies hold off releasing a game until it's 100%?

     

    To answer my own question I think it's importany for a game to get released to open beta asap. We all knows that even a hint of postponing or dragging out release dates can be a death knell for a game. I would also suggest that a company will never know it's near 100% until players actually get in, play the game and give their feedback

    Where is this thread or article about hoardes of people quitting? I can't find anything that says that....

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    "And you try to tell the young gamers of today that...and they won't believe you... "

    Well, dunno about that, but I can tell you not many people would believe the Amiga 500 Twist ever happened...heh.  My best man coudln't believe it, the first time he saw it.

    (Amiga 500 processors were socketed (stunning 1.7mHz!!!), and due to heat expansion sometimes worked themselves out of the socket.  You could "fix" the problem fairly quickly, by picking up the entire unit and twisting it slightly between your hands.)

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf

    More than 1% of gamers modded prior to 2004 I'd wager.

    My entire time playing games like the Sims 1 and any Unreal game was with hundreds of other players who at least tweeked things. 

    My mother used MSPaint to add tags to her mechs in MechWarrior 3 and 4.

    I think game devs didn't mind as much then as they do now. Sims progress from 2 to 3 shows this as well.

    But my point is for MMORPGs to be something more than flash in a pan borefests they need to incorporate the community adding to the game.

    You do realize that 1% of The Sims 1 players is 63,000 players (not "hundreds") right?

    Also unless you were really digging into Unreal modding it, simply changing the settings doesn't make you a modder.  Unless we're gonna pretend most Halo players mod Halo, and choosing Huge world size in Civilization made you a modder, in which case the term loses all useful meaning.

    I mean I personally modded games, but I went on to become a game tester and later designer, so I'm not the typical gamer when it comes to that stuff.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    I mean I personally modded games, but I went on to become a game tester and later designer, so I'm not the typical gamer when it comes to that stuff.

    A generation earlier (there's that damn word again), everyone still grokked DOS, at  least.  I don't think a claim that a lot of early games were heavily modded is an unreasonable one.

    I'd never try to guess a number though...heh.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • DestaiDestai Member Posts: 574
    Originally posted by comrademario

    Just reading about a hoarde of people quitting Secret World and saying they're done with the game. This has been released for a couple of weeks now. Rift, SWTOR, D3 and a lot of other games have seen similar comments being made them, hell there are even people saying screw GW2 and that they won't go back before it's even friggin launched.

     

    So my question is, are modern gamers just too impatient? I would say 100% of MMOs need time to iron out flaws, rework certain aspects of the game and just grow the thing before it can be considered polished. I know that a game that leaves beta and goes live should have all of these things done in advance, but it wasn't always like that, even WoW needed time to have the game live to gather feedback from players to help improve it. So is it modern gamers at fault (I would suggest that console gamers crossing into MMOs would have a lot less patience than old timers from 10 years ago)? Or should the gaming companies hold off releasing a game until it's 100%?

     

    To answer my own question I think it's importany for a game to get released to open beta asap. We all knows that even a hint of postponing or dragging out release dates can be a death knell for a game. I would also suggest that a company will never know it's near 100% until players actually get in, play the game and give their feedback

    People need to be aware that most games will have some hiccups on release. Part of the problem is the expectation of the genre - people want a living world. Many players are not patient in fulfilling these expectations and will leave ship at the first sign of delay. The flip side is that these developers push out games too soon or with one trick ponies. Take your example of Rift. It's a good game, at what it does, but the depth does not compare to an existing body of games. SWTOR is just a drab closed world and doesn't even feel like an MMO. As for Diablo 3 - well, you can only play the same campaign so many times. The problem is that development costs have gone up and this puts some hamper on implementing the features so many players ask for.

    It's a different time, people don't want to be paying for incomplete games. I disagree wtih your answer to your own. The only time that a game should progress to the next stage of development is when it's ready.

  • VengerVenger Member UncommonPosts: 1,309

    ADHD

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Member Posts: 489
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf

    More than 1% of gamers modded prior to 2004 I'd wager.

    My entire time playing games like the Sims 1 and any Unreal game was with hundreds of other players who at least tweeked things. 

    My mother used MSPaint to add tags to her mechs in MechWarrior 3 and 4.

    I think game devs didn't mind as much then as they do now. Sims progress from 2 to 3 shows this as well.

    But my point is for MMORPGs to be something more than flash in a pan borefests they need to incorporate the community adding to the game.

    You do realize that 1% of The Sims 1 players is 63,000 players (not "hundreds") right?

    Also unless you were really digging into Unreal modding it, simply changing the settings doesn't make you a modder.  Unless we're gonna pretend most Halo players mod Halo, and choosing Huge world size in Civilization made you a modder, in which case the term loses all useful meaning.

    I mean I personally modded games, but I went on to become a game tester and later designer, so I'm not the typical gamer when it comes to that stuff.

    I'm pretty sure you're a net liar, but that's cool.

    My Unreal modding went to creating levels, changing physics on weapons, and making a Bender skin because I wanted people to kiss my shiny metal ass while I was playing.

    But, unlike you, I do feel that most people who even loaded up a skin to change, that big flat map that everyone got wrong the first few times while skinning, is indeed modding. If you're changing the game from it's original design to be more customized to what you want. Even if it's adding -w to the end of a launch code.

    Still, I never associated with more than a few hundred people in these communities at a time that I know of. I was speaking for myself.

    I'm rather certain more than 63,000 Sims 1 players modified their game. Plus that's just one game from that time.

    a yo ho ho

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