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Is it me or GW2 PAY 2 WIN game?

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  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    He has a good point: "People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. " , but his definition isn't doing that. 

     

    PayTo Win, just means Pay To Win. To know whether or not something is "Pay To Win", you need to define the competition of relevance and from that analyze if paying is helping you significantely towards winning.

     

    A not-so-often mentioned aspect of "Pay To Win" is that it refers to "sanctioned Pay To Win", which is why "Pay To Win through illegal means" are not discussed.

     

     

    I think you've done a fine job of managing to say virtually nothing at all.  Are you a politician?

     

    Would you mind clarifying what you feel that "winning" even is, so we can all understand what you are perceiving?

    Assume Player A and Player B participate in a competition with certain winning conditions, then whoever reaches those winning conditions first, wins.

    lol, thanks. Who would have guessed.

    Now lets try the same question, but this time actually give me an answer, not just another generalization. 

    You didn't specify which specific competition you are refering to. In general, there are many competitions in MMORPGs. In Guid Wars  2 we have: World vs World, Structured PvP,  market competitions, PvE competitions, Vanity competitions, etc. 

     

    Now depending on personal opinion, people can consider certain competitions to be more important than other ones.

     

    Once the competition is selected, one can analyze whether or not paying will significantely help one towards winning.

     

    Reading this thread, it is evident that many consider the long-term World vs World competition to be of outmost importance. For a such competition, in which the grand majority of the players already reached max level and can afford to maximize their character without paying Real Life money, I don't think there is anything really that one can pay real money for that would give a significant advantage towards winning that specific competition.

     

    Edit:

    But, it is not unthinkable that other people consider other competitions to be of importance and then we have to do a seperate analysis of those competitions. Wealth competitions are for instance severely affected by real money. 

  • Entropy14Entropy14 Member UncommonPosts: 675
    Originally posted by negativf4kk

    I log into the game 6 month after realese. Go into shop thingy, buy Gems, sell them on AH or directly to Arenanet, buy best gear from AH, progress...... what an illussion of mmo(((( 

    Then dont do that ?? any game you can buy gold one way or another...

     

    Any game you can buy already geared accounts...but what do you care if you dont do it ?

     

    See myself I dont give a flying F**** what other people do , I play the game and earn my gear

     

    WHY you ask !!!! Cause I find it fun to play MMO's , hence why  i play them and dont just buy things. 

     

    Even gold I earn honestly in a game , I rarely use to buy gear, espcially end level gear.

  • eye_meye_m Member UncommonPosts: 3,317
    Originally posted by Atriokke

    People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, butif your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition.

    Example:  A starts playing at the same time as B.  They both play the game the same amount of hours.  B has money to spare, A does not.  B proceeds to spend cash for in game gold.  B takes an advantage over A.  Most games fit this description, but their degrees of how much advantage varies game to game.   

    The idea that since you can obtain it through gameplay THUS it is not P2W is ludicrous and incredibly naive.   But of course, if your definition is something other than simply taking an advantage to other players through cash then we are at odds regarding the definition. 

     

    It's nice that you remove the variable of time from the equation to suit your needs, but it's also one of the most major factors in your example.

     

    Example: Player A starts playing at the same time as Player B.  A has a job and a wife and can only put in 6 hours a week, while B is unemployed and spends all his time gaming. Player A puts out a little cash to try and compensate for his lack of time and manages to compete evenly (at best) with player B.   Can player A ever put out enough cash to have an unfair advantage over player B? No.  Is player B butthurt because he put all his time into this game and somebody was allowed to spend money for the chance to catch up?  YES

     

    Sure, there will be situations that have people get ahead of other people because they spend money while the other people can't.  Lets offer an exaggerated example of that.

     

    Example: Player A has money because they have a job, while Player B does not.  Player A goes out and buys the game, while player B saves a couple dollars from each welfare check and finally manages to buy the game 6 months later, but also saves 50% off the regular price. Player A however has already reached max level and is fully geared.

     

    So sure, you can call anything P2W but what it really boils down to is a simple statement.

    Can unlimited funds have an advantage over unlimited time. If the answer is no, then it's not P2W.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

    I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.

  • MattVidMattVid Member Posts: 399
    Originally posted by Jonoku
    Originally posted by MattVid

    Gear doesn't make a huge difference in the game. You should try playing it before stating stuff like this.

    The game is most definitely not pay to win. Unless you mean paying your 60 dollars and winning by having so much fun :)

    There is no gear difference at all. If you mean the way they look yes.

    Well, there is some difference level to level, but it is like 1 defense and 1-2 other stats. Not meaning much.

    Also, another thing is that many of the "pay to win" items can be found in game in mystic chests. This includes XP boosts, dyes, movement speed increases, etc. You need keys to open the chests (which you can get as drops), but you can get these items in these chests.

    And one last thing. Sure, people can buy gems and sell them. But people can also make gold in game and purchase gems from other players. Therefore, all items in the cash shop will have a value in terms of gameplay and in game gold. So if you are good in the market and can make money that way, you could potentially play for free and have all the cash shop items you want!

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Member Posts: 1,118
    Originally posted by Kyelthis

    Here's a post quoted from Aslan132 on these forums and it pretty much should settle this whole silly arguement.

     

    "Thats the big problem there. People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. It has never meant xp potions or time-saving items. And it never will, not even with people on this site trying to force it to. 

    People have been buying and selling max level characters and uber-loot drops since the beginning. Name a sub game and i guarantee you can find a toon for sale on eBay. But even that is not Pay2Win. In the end, they skip all the content, but they are still only as powerful as someone who has actually played. 

    PAY2WIN is only something that takes you ABOVE what is normally reachable in a game. Artificial stat increases, new areas with better gear/loot, or temporary buffs/invulnerability. If its something that a nonpaying player couldnt do or get, then its pay2win.

    PAY2WIN is NOT convenience items that save time, offer better chances to get something thats already obtainable without, skipping content, or appearance/cosmetic items. If you cant be better or reach higher than a nonpaying player, it is not Pay2Win.

    So there it is, adjust your definition to that, and i think your gaming experiences will be alot better. There are still plenty of P2W games like anything ever done by PWE or Aeria, but theres also alot more out there that doesnt restrict your gameplay just because you dont pay them."

    Unfortunately, smacking people with the truth only makes them angry and defensive of their own point.  Stroking them gently with the truth only allows them to yell louder that it's not enough.

     

    My point?  People are going to just flat out ignore the truth when it suits their own purposes.  The axe they have to grind is the only thing that matter.

     

    OT - Nothing in GW2 that I've seen is Pay2Win.  You may level faster than someone else with an XP boost, but that isn't going to make you better with your weapons.  In fact, it won't even unlock your skills.  It won't even make you much stronger since everyone in the same area is roughly the same power level.  So, what the hell are the XP boosts for anyway?  To take money from the fools who think that leveling faster is actually something to pay for.  So, go ahead and pay for your faster leveling or the "cool" looking armor.  You're still a fool.

     

    I personally don't mind if Anet (or anyone else) is willing to take money from fools.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • HurvartHurvart Member Posts: 565
    Originally posted by aslan132
    Originally posted by Atriokke

    People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, butif your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition.

    Example:  A starts playing at the same time as B.  They both play the game the same amount of hours.  B has money to spare, A does not.  B proceeds to spend cash for in game gold.  B takes an advantage over A.  Most games fit this description, but their degrees of how much advantage varies game to game.   

    The idea that since you can obtain it through gameplay THUS it is not P2W is ludicrous and incredibly naive.   But of course, if your definition is something other than simply taking an advantage to other players through cash then we are at odds regarding the definition. 

     

    First, i was gonna re-emphasize my definition of P2W, but someone actually quoted me already in this thread (page 21,  just before this if youre interested), so im not gonna repost it. What i would like to add is just how flawed your definition is. 

     

    With your example for starters: You forget about the other side of it. If both A and B play the same amount of hours, but one uses money for an advatnage and the other doesnt, sure that one has a slight advatange. But conversly, if both A and B spend exactly the same amount of money (which could also be none), but one plays alot more than the other, now the money gives no advantage, and is completely removed from the equation, as you so blatantly tried to remove time from your example. By your very seriously flawed definition that you tried to secretly slide by the naive, if a player can play more hours than another player, thus earning an advantage over that person, now the game is Pay2Win?

     

    The idea that a game can be P2W disregarding the money (or the pay) part of it, is out right laughable. So every game, ever created or will be created is now P2W? Hmm, 2 words come to mind...ludicrous and naive :P

     

    Im unemployed and I plan to play more than 40 hours a week. I know others that cant make that commitment, but they could use boosts from the shop to try to keep up, or at least close the gap. Does that mean they are paying to win, even though i clearly have the advantage. Thats the point you seem to not understand. If they are paying, but not gaining an advantage, it is no longer P2W. But of course, you try to pretend that cant possibly happen. If someone buys something from the cash shop, they have to have the advantage right? Even if they are level 20, and im level 80. What if they buy 10 gold with real money... but i have 300 gold i made from playing and leveling the game, and working the auction house. Clearly the level 20 with 10 gold bought with real money has the advantage over a level 80 with 300 gold, right?

     

    Pay2win means you have to gain an absolute advantage over someone not paying. Not a convenience boost, or time saver. It MUST be something that cant be obtained with money. Theres no grey area here, no varying levels of P2W, or room for discussion. Yes some games will offer larger advantages than others, so yes P2W has varying degrees, but they all require one thing in common: the advantage has to be something that cant be otherwise obtained. 


    Lets say you can buy "Sword of Power" in the CS for $50. Or you can grind for 3 weeks until you have 20 tokens and can buy it from a token-vendor in game. My friend and I both really need that sword. My friend buys the sword in the CS and I start to grind. My friend will be able to beat me in PvP every day for 3 weeks. Because without that sword I have no chance at all. It really is very powerful.

    Is that fair? Of course that is P2W. I will think "P2W" every time my friend destroys me in PvP with that sword. This will go on for 3 weeks...

    It makes no difference at all if the advantage is temporary or absolute. In this example it will be P2W for 3 weeks. And every time my friends kills someone in PvP that cant afford to use the CS it could also be considered P2W. Because without spending $50 he would not beat them.

  • p_c_sousap_c_sousa Member Posts: 620

    i just find hilarious how a game can be P2W before reach max lvl and than after reach max lvl sudenly is no longer P2W. must be a new kind of P2W definition.  

    for some guys all games must be P2W since i can pay a friend to play extra hours for me ...... 

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by p_c_sousa

    i just find hilarious how a game can be P2W before reach max lvl and than after reach max lvl sudenly is no longer P2W. must be a new kind of P2W definition.  

    for some guys all games must be P2W since i can pay a friend to play extra hours for me ...... 

     

    I doubt that paying a friend to play extra hours for you is a sanctioned "Pay To Win" method. From my experience games tend to have strict rules against RMT outside of those allowed by the company themselves. 

  • rankor2rankor2 Member UncommonPosts: 115
    Originally posted by Hurvart

    Originally posted by aslan132
    Originally posted by Atriokke
     People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, butif your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition. Example:  A starts playing at the same time as B.  They both play the game the same amount of hours.  B has money to spare, A does not.  B proceeds to spend cash for in game gold.  B takes an advantage over A.  Most games fit this description, but their degrees of how much advantage varies game to game.    The idea that since you can obtain it through gameplay THUS it is not P2W is ludicrous and incredibly naive.   But of course, if your definition is something other than simply taking an advantage to other players through cash then we are at odds regarding the definition.   

    First, i was gonna re-emphasize my definition of P2W, but someone actually quoted me already in this thread (page 21,  just before this if youre interested), so im not gonna repost it. What i would like to add is just how flawed your definition is. 

     

    With your example for starters: You forget about the other side of it. If both A and B play the same amount of hours, but one uses money for an advatnage and the other doesnt, sure that one has a slight advatange. But conversly, if both A and B spend exactly the same amount of money (which could also be none), but one plays alot more than the other, now the money gives no advantage, and is completely removed from the equation, as you so blatantly tried to remove time from your example. By your very seriously flawed definition that you tried to secretly slide by the naive, if a player can play more hours than another player, thus earning an advantage over that person, now the game is Pay2Win?

     

    The idea that a game can be P2W disregarding the money (or the pay) part of it, is out right laughable. So every game, ever created or will be created is now P2W? Hmm, 2 words come to mind...ludicrous and naive :P

     

    Im unemployed and I plan to play more than 40 hours a week. I know others that cant make that commitment, but they could use boosts from the shop to try to keep up, or at least close the gap. Does that mean they are paying to win, even though i clearly have the advantage. Thats the point you seem to not understand. If they are paying, but not gaining an advantage, it is no longer P2W. But of course, you try to pretend that cant possibly happen. If someone buys something from the cash shop, they have to have the advantage right? Even if they are level 20, and im level 80. What if they buy 10 gold with real money... but i have 300 gold i made from playing and leveling the game, and working the auction house. Clearly the level 20 with 10 gold bought with real money has the advantage over a level 80 with 300 gold, right?

     

    Pay2win means you have to gain an absolute advantage over someone not paying. Not a convenience boost, or time saver. It MUST be something that cant be obtained with money. Theres no grey area here, no varying levels of P2W, or room for discussion. Yes some games will offer larger advantages than others, so yes P2W has varying degrees, but they all require one thing in common: the advantage has to be something that cant be otherwise obtained. 


    Lets say you can buy "Sword of Power" in the CS for $50. Or you can grind for 3 weeks until you have 20 tokens and can buy it from a token-vendor in game. My friend and I both really need that sword. My friend buys the sword in the CS and I start to grind. My friend will be able to beat me in PvP every day for 3 weeks. Because without that sword I have no chance at all. It really is very powerful.

    Is that fair? Of course that is P2W. I will think "P2W" every time my friend destroys me in PvP with that sword. This will go on for 3 weeks...

    It makes no difference at all if the advantage is temporary or absolute. In this example it will be P2W for 3 weeks. And every time my friends kills someone in PvP that cant afford to use the CS it could also be considered P2W. Because without spending $50 he would not beat them.

     

    And this cannot be applied to gw2 because there is no 'sword of power' in the cs and gear does not equal win in this game.

    End thread. Not p2w.
  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour Member UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by rankor2
    Originally posted by Hurvart
    Originally posted by aslan132
    (...)

     (...)

    Pay2win means you have to gain an absolute advantage over someone not paying. Not a convenience boost, or time saver. It MUST be something that cant be obtained with money. Theres no grey area here, no varying levels of P2W, or room for discussion. Yes some games will offer larger advantages than others, so yes P2W has varying degrees, but they all require one thing in common: the advantage has to be something that cant be otherwise obtained. 


    Lets say you can buy "Sword of Power" in the CS for $50. Or you can grind for 3 weeks until you have 20 tokens and can buy it from a token-vendor in game. My friend and I both really need that sword. My friend buys the sword in the CS and I start to grind. My friend will be able to beat me in PvP every day for 3 weeks. Because without that sword I have no chance at all. It really is very powerful.

    Is that fair? Of course that is P2W. I will think "P2W" every time my friend destroys me in PvP with that sword. This will go on for 3 weeks...

    It makes no difference at all if the advantage is temporary or absolute. In this example it will be P2W for 3 weeks. And every time my friends kills someone in PvP that cant afford to use the CS it could also be considered P2W. Because without spending $50 he would not beat them.

     

    And this cannot be applied to gw2 because there is no 'sword of power' in the cs and gear does not equal win in this game. End thread. Not p2w.

    In that specific post you quoted, he was not arguing against Guild Wars 2, he was arguing against the argument of another poster of what he considers to be "Pay To Win". 

  • rankor2rankor2 Member UncommonPosts: 115
    Yes i know and I was in agreement. I should have been more clear. Anyway this is a great thread to read through and laugh at all the arguments.
  • Ambros123Ambros123 Member Posts: 877

    I bet people will scream P2W with collector's edition items that every MMO has done.

  • p_c_sousap_c_sousa Member Posts: 620
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by p_c_sousa

    i just find hilarious how a game can be P2W before reach max lvl and than after reach max lvl sudenly is no longer P2W. must be a new kind of P2W definition.  

    for some guys all games must be P2W since i can pay a friend to play extra hours for me ...... 

     

    I doubt that paying a friend to play extra hours for you is a sanctioned "Pay To Win" method. From my experience games tend to have strict rules against RMT outside of those allowed by the company themselves. 

    if  for some guys reach fast max lvl is P2W than pay a friend to play for you so can reach max lvl fast is P2W too and that is absurd. 

    let amke the silly player A vs player B comparison:

    player A and player B have only 2 hours to play for day. player A have money available to pay player C to play 2 hours day with is account. player B cant spend money with player C so player A will reach max lvl soon than player B.

    for some this is P2W...sorry but this is just stupid

  • DerpybirdDerpybird Member Posts: 991
    Originally posted by Hurvart


    Lets say you can buy "Sword of Power" in the CS for $50. Or you can grind for 3 weeks until you have 20 tokens and can buy it from a token-vendor in game. My friend and I both really need that sword. My friend buys the sword in the CS and I start to grind. My friend will be able to beat me in PvP every day for 3 weeks. Because without that sword I have no chance at all. It really is very powerful.

    Is that fair? Of course that is P2W. I will think "P2W" every time my friend destroys me in PvP with that sword. This will go on for 3 weeks...

    It makes no difference at all if the advantage is temporary or absolute. In this example it will be P2W for 3 weeks. And every time my friends kills someone in PvP that cant afford to use the CS it could also be considered P2W. Because without spending $50 he would not beat them.

    Which item from the shop would you equate with this so called "Sword of Power"?

    Is it the pirate outfit? I bet it is.

    We really don't know how much the summonable cannon will add to your DPS, and this has always worried me. I can imagine being at the gates in WvWvW and a bunch of people who "paid to win" pull out those damn cannons and wipe us off the board.

    Or the parrot. I'm pretty damn suspicious of that thing too.

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • eye_meye_m Member UncommonPosts: 3,317
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

    He has a good point: "People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. " , but his definition isn't doing that. 

     

    PayTo Win, just means Pay To Win. To know whether or not something is "Pay To Win", you need to define the competition of relevance and from that analyze if paying is helping you significantely towards winning.

     

    A not-so-often mentioned aspect of "Pay To Win" is that it refers to "sanctioned Pay To Win", which is why "Pay To Win through illegal means" are not discussed.

     

     

    I think you've done a fine job of managing to say virtually nothing at all.  Are you a politician?

     

    Would you mind clarifying what you feel that "winning" even is, so we can all understand what you are perceiving?

    Assume Player A and Player B participate in a competition with certain winning conditions, then whoever reaches those winning conditions first, wins.

    lol, thanks. Who would have guessed.

    Now lets try the same question, but this time actually give me an answer, not just another generalization. 

    You didn't specify which specific competition you are refering to. In general, there are many competitions in MMORPGs. In Guid Wars  2 we have: World vs World, Structured PvP,  market competitions, PvE competitions, Vanity competitions, etc. 

     

    Now depending on personal opinion, people can consider certain competitions to be more important than other ones.

     

    Once the competition is selected, one can analyze whether or not paying will significantely help one towards winning.

     

    Reading this thread, it is evident that many consider the long-term World vs World competition to be of outmost importance. For a such competition, in which the grand majority of the players already reached max level and can afford to maximize their character without paying Real Life money, I don't think there is anything really that one can pay real money for that would give a significant advantage towards winning that specific competition.

     

    Edit:

    But, it is not unthinkable that other people consider other competitions to be of importance and then we have to do a seperate analysis of those competitions. Wealth competitions are for instance severely affected by real money. 

    Vanity competitions?  Wealth competitions?

    I'm sorry but I just can't feel that these sorts of competitions hold any merit at all.  I'm the type of person that feels that if you're unhappy because someone has a prettier hat then you in a videogame, you should turn off the computer and leave the house.

     

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

    I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.

  • brickleulbrickleul Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Originally posted by p_c_sousa
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by p_c_sousa

    i just find hilarious how a game can be P2W before reach max lvl and than after reach max lvl sudenly is no longer P2W. must be a new kind of P2W definition.  

    for some guys all games must be P2W since i can pay a friend to play extra hours for me ...... 

     

    I doubt that paying a friend to play extra hours for you is a sanctioned "Pay To Win" method. From my experience games tend to have strict rules against RMT outside of those allowed by the company themselves. 

    if  for some guys reach fast max lvl is P2W than pay a friend to play for you so can reach max lvl fast is P2W too and that is absurd. 

    let amke the silly player A vs player B comparison:

    player A and player B have only 2 hours to play for day. player A have money available to pay player C to play 2 hours day with is account. player B cant spend money with player C so player A will reach max lvl soon than player B.

    for some this is P2W...sorry but this is just stupid

    Sorry but this is not P2W , it can be considered P2W in a game with no cap lvl , just for the fact player A will reach max level faster doesn't make him P2W , player B will get that lvl too maybe 3 or 7 days later , when they engage in battle player B will have higher chance to beat player A because he has more experience in the game since he played the game more time than player A , this is not P2W .

    P2W is only when you can buy with cash something that is not accessible for players who don't use real money , an example is World of tanks with cash you can buy premium ammo witch is a lot better than normal ammo this will give you a good advantage since you have 30% more dmg than any other player but even in this situation is not really P2W because you can still lose , bacause skills and experience count a lot more than having  a slightly better gear than your opponent , and using the same Wot example for me is a bigger satisfaction beating an opponent who used cash to buy stuff . 

  • HellSingsHellSings Member Posts: 185
    Originally posted by negativf4kk

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Gem#Real_life_money_--.3E_in_game_money

    Looks like P2W?

    Hardly. Cash shop only offers you cosmetics and vanity boosts. The latter is only helpful for leveling faster. Everything can be bought with ingame gold and the leveling speed is hardly a challenge, nullifying the need for any. All it does is offer a time advantage for those who cannot play 5hours+ daily.

    All gear is available through karma vendors, tokens and crafting. Neither offer significant stat boosts over the other, and is only for cosmetic means. There is no 'p2w' gear avaliable through cash shop.

  • aslan132aslan132 Member UncommonPosts: 621
    Originally posted by Hurvart
    Originally posted by aslan132
    *snip*

     

    *snip*

     

    Pay2win means you have to gain an absolute advantage over someone not paying. Not a convenience boost, or time saver. It MUST be something that cant be obtained with money. Theres no grey area here, no varying levels of P2W, or room for discussion. Yes some games will offer larger advantages than others, so yes P2W has varying degrees, but they all require one thing in common: the advantage has to be something that cant be otherwise obtained. 


    Lets say you can buy "Sword of Power" in the CS for $50. Or you can grind for 3 weeks until you have 20 tokens and can buy it from a token-vendor in game. My friend and I both really need that sword. My friend buys the sword in the CS and I start to grind. My friend will be able to beat me in PvP every day for 3 weeks. Because without that sword I have no chance at all. It really is very powerful.

    Is that fair? Of course that is P2W. I will think "P2W" every time my friend destroys me in PvP with that sword. This will go on for 3 weeks...

    It makes no difference at all if the advantage is temporary or absolute. In this example it will be P2W for 3 weeks. And every time my friends kills someone in PvP that cant afford to use the CS it could also be considered P2W. Because without spending $50 he would not beat them.

    Snipped for space, but left the most important part that you completely ignored, yet again, in your reply. Regardless of the fact that this thread is related to GW2, and the example you have chosen to try to prove your point has no merit at all for GW2, your argument is still illogical. The very second something can be obtainable in game, regardless of time, it negates pay2win.

     

    The reason? RNG. If you dont know, it stands for random number generator. Its the basis for loot in almost any MMO. The idea is that a creature has a large loot table, with various types of items, sometimes with varying degrees of power, and meant for use by different classes. So lets say that "sword of power" drops from a mob, or can be bought in the cash shop. While its quite possible i may have to grind 3 weeks to obtain it, theres still a chance the very first kill i could also obtain it. So the real example would mean the game is Pay2Win (by your definition) for UP TO 3 WEEKS, not a strict outlined 3 weeks. The person that bought it could possibly only have an actual 2 day advantage, maybe 2 hours. Furthermore, youre only adressing 2 players. MMOs have thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands. While A may have bought a 3 week advantage over B, C has already done the grind 6 months ago, and has been using the "Sword of Power" this whole time. So A has only evened the playing field, but his purchase has not gained him any advatange. So wheres the Pay2Win in that? It doesnt exist. 

    Hence the reason i left the underlined bold sentence in my snips and not removed them. If there is no advantage gained above something obtained within normal gameplay, then there is no paid for advantage at all. Which is the very opposite of Paying to Win. Every example you have given of a "temporary" P2W argument is offset by the actual time factor. The very fact that its temporary means it has an advantage only seen by some, while it could very well still leave you disadvantaged to others.

    Another example: A buys the sword, he has a 3 week advantage over B while B is trying to grind for the same sword. While grinding B obtains "Sword of Immense Power" which is a rare drop, but the RNG has favored him. Now who has the advantage? Unless A can buy something MORE powerful than the most powerful sword in game, he will never have the advantage, its just not possible. 

  • joocheesejoocheese Member Posts: 845

    25 pages on this thread! haha... people need to find better things to do with their time!

    As far as the most of us are concerned, this issue has been settled a long time ago... GW2 is NOT P2W, if anything, for the simple fact that you can get everything in the CS with in-game money as well as with real money.

    Either people are ignorant and don't do research before posting or just looking for a good time hating/trolling around in the forums.

  • ArthasmArthasm Member UncommonPosts: 785
    Originally posted by Master10K

    I can link to. image

    God bless you. :)

    image

  • aslan132aslan132 Member UncommonPosts: 621

    Just to clarify, im not saying temporary Pay2Win doesnt exist in some games. It is a very real thing, it just doesnt apply to GW2.

    Games that offer items like temporary invincibility potions, or 100% crit for 10 minutes, or stronger ammo/gear in limited quantities or durations, those are temporary Pay2Win. The key is still the fact that those provide an advatange (something stronger) than what is obtained ingame. Once you run out of ammo, you lose the advantage, but people have varying amounts of money. Even temp boosts can be seen as permanent with unlimited funds. 

    So there it is, again, temporary is by definition a matter of time. Doesnt matter if its 2 weeks or 2 hours, or even 2 minutes. An advantage over something obtainable is Pay2Win. Time is never a factor and should never be taken into consideration. The only part that matters is reaching above the normal (caps, levels, attributes, whatever).

  • AdalwulffAdalwulff Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,152

    Dont let them fool you, as soon as GW2 is released buy all the gems you can!

    You should do this for at least the first 3-4 months, buy as many gems as you can. Then you will corner the market and be one rich player!!

    Then you can sit back and buy everything you need, levels, items, guild stuff, guild levels and whatever else the game offers. The big bonus is that you can achieve max level in just a day or two.

    But, now that the secret is out, be sure to buy those gems right away before someone else gets them.

    image
  • p_c_sousap_c_sousa Member Posts: 620
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    Dont let them fool you, as soon as GW2 is released buy all the gems you can!

    You should do this for at least the first 3-4 months, buy as many gems as you can. Then you will corner the market and be one rich player!!

    Then you can sit back and buy everything you need, levels, items, guild stuff, guild levels and whatever else the game offers. The big bonus is that you can achieve max level in just a day or two.

    But, now that the secret is out, be sure to buy those gems right away before someone else gets them.

    lol. are you trying scam some guys? for support arenanet or just to buy that gems very cheap with gold? 

  • 3-4thElf3-4thElf Member Posts: 489
    Originally posted by p_c_sousa
    Originally posted by Adalwulff

    Dont let them fool you, as soon as GW2 is released buy all the gems you can!

    You should do this for at least the first 3-4 months, buy as many gems as you can. Then you will corner the market and be one rich player!!

    Then you can sit back and buy everything you need, levels, items, guild stuff, guild levels and whatever else the game offers. The big bonus is that you can achieve max level in just a day or two.

    But, now that the secret is out, be sure to buy those gems right away before someone else gets them.

    lol. are you trying scam some guys? for support arenanet or just to buy that gems very cheap with gold? 

    Shhhh..

    I'd like to see the first few content updates be free. LoL

    a yo ho ho

  • AtriokkeAtriokke Member Posts: 13
    Originally posted by Hurvart
    Originally posted by Meowhead
    Originally posted by Hurvart

    If you are higher level it means you are more powerful. It means you are buying power if you buy xp-potions. Of course the other players will catch up at max level. But it is still very true. If there was no reason to buy xp-potions they would not sell xp-potions. It would not be profitable....

    Perhaps it affects my friends if they are trying to level as fast as me. They cant keep up if I use xp-potions.

    "Win" is subjective and depends on POV and context. Perhaps it will be P2W for me and my friends. But anyone should be able to agree it is an advantage. Even if it is only temporary.

     This is why all subscription games are P2W.  :(

    Given two people who are completely equal in all ways... they level at the same speed, they have enough free time they can play exactly 20 hours each week, they have the same amount of skill...

    ... the person who only pays their subscription fee half the months will be twice as slow as the person who pays their subscription fee every month.

    That's a pretty clear cut case of pay to win, and it's =200%= faster for just 7.50 a month.  :( 


    They are Play to Win. Not Pay to Win. If you play more you will be more powerful. I think that is the way a good and fair game should be. To play you must of course also pay the monthly fee. But that is not relevant. You are paying for a service. They must maintain servers and so on.... To play one month everyone will have to pay the same price. Paying more will not help you and will not be possible. That is a level playing field and a fair game.

    Agreed.  

    Taking into account every moment and second the person is not playing for me is irrelevant to a fair game.  What should be(stress IMO) considered when making a game fair is how players stand against each other WHILE they play the game.  Do A and B have the same route to accomplish power lvl X?  If so, the playing field is the same. However in P2W games, money grants you an alternative route to power, thus making the game unfair AND ultimately P2W as power lvls are now immediately accessed through cash.  (Maybe someone can give me a more accurate acronym/definition for P2W so they can stay with their P2W definition (items granting power only accessible through cash shop).   P4A?  Pay 4 advantage =D?? or P4W??    )  

    May the richest person win!!

This discussion has been closed.