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Is Raiding Dead?

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by sirphobos

    In my opinion, large raids can in a way be less hardcore than small raids.

    When doing smaller raids, you generally have a set raid roster, and are often pressured to attend every raid or risk losing your raid spot.  You are also pressured to be on time and stay the whole raid, as one person leaving often means the raid cannot continue.

    On the other hand, in a game like EQ1, raids had a lot more flexibility.  My EQ guild varied in size from probably 60 to 100 active "raiders" in the decade that I was playing.  Once raids shifted to the instanced route, we had a set three night per week schedule.  However, most of our people averaged about 75% attendance, with only some people being in the 90-100% range. Some people would miss the start of raids or have to leave early because of time differences, and this was for the most part, not a problem, because one person out of 50 leaving generally isn't going to make a huge difference (unless you are really short on a particular needed class that night).

    Of course, the hardcore EQ raiding guilds had more intense schedules and requirements than the most hardcore guilds in WoW, RIFT, etc (there were guilds on my server that raided six nights a week, six hours a night), but in my opinion, large raids are more friendly to more casual raiders than small raids are.

    The whole practice of schedulnig and logging attendance is counter to the current gaming culture.

    And while dropping one person from a 60 people raid is less of a problem than a 10 man, you have to find 60 people to agree to raid with you in the first place .. and that is a MUCH bigger problem.

    Many, includng me, won't raid just because of the huge time sink & commitment .. and the headache of drama. It is much easier to PUG.

     

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Member UncommonPosts: 1,290
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by sirphobos

    In my opinion, large raids can in a way be less hardcore than small raids.

    When doing smaller raids, you generally have a set raid roster, and are often pressured to attend every raid or risk losing your raid spot.  You are also pressured to be on time and stay the whole raid, as one person leaving often means the raid cannot continue.

    On the other hand, in a game like EQ1, raids had a lot more flexibility.  My EQ guild varied in size from probably 60 to 100 active "raiders" in the decade that I was playing.  Once raids shifted to the instanced route, we had a set three night per week schedule.  However, most of our people averaged about 75% attendance, with only some people being in the 90-100% range. Some people would miss the start of raids or have to leave early because of time differences, and this was for the most part, not a problem, because one person out of 50 leaving generally isn't going to make a huge difference (unless you are really short on a particular needed class that night).

    Of course, the hardcore EQ raiding guilds had more intense schedules and requirements than the most hardcore guilds in WoW, RIFT, etc (there were guilds on my server that raided six nights a week, six hours a night), but in my opinion, large raids are more friendly to more casual raiders than small raids are.

    The whole practice of schedulnig and logging attendance is counter to the current gaming culture.

    And while dropping one person from a 60 people raid is less of a problem than a 10 man, you have to find 60 people to agree to raid with you in the first place .. and that is a MUCH bigger problem.

    Many, includng me, won't raid just because of the huge time sink & commitment .. and the headache of drama. It is much easier to PUG.

     

    I always found this attitude to be funny. Casuals waste 10 hours PUGing to accomplish what "hardcores" can in 1 hour. Being hardcore isnt about wasting time, its about being efficient.

  • udonudon Member UncommonPosts: 1,803
    Originally posted by Vrdict
    Originally posted by DJJazzy

    plenty of raid games out there, hardly dead

    Then by all means please list them, I'm definitely interested in any I haven't looked into already. Seems to be a pattern of many MMO's to start calling 10 mans 'raiding' to sell the term, where it's really just double group play with added hassle of standing in the blue circle phase 1 and avoiding the red circles phase 2 - not my definition of raiding by any means. Which this rules out games like TERA, Lineage 2, AoC, among others.

    IMO if you really want to focus on raiding play EQ2.  It's raids are brutal in comparason to anything released since and there is raid content (Plane of War) that has been out for almost a year that hasn't be cleared.  It's ok to go back and try it F2P but go sub if you want to raid as you will ba making more than the plat cap a day at higher levels.

    It's the pinicle of progression raiding with all the good and bad that comes with that.  One thing I will warn you about EQ2 is pick your class and server very carfully if you want to raid.  Check out EQ2Flames recruitment threads for a idea of what classes are in demand.  You probably won't be able to just jump into a high tier raiding guild right away and will likely need to do a little guild hopping though the progression before you get up to them unless you can hook up with a strong growing guild which are rare these days.

    I hear Rift is making some good progress adding new raid content but I don' think they are willing yet to quite go as far difficulty wise as EQ2.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

     

    I always found this attitude to be funny. Casuals waste 10 hours PUGing to accomplish what "hardcores" can in 1 hour. Being hardcore isnt about wasting time, its about being efficient.

    You assume wrong. Hard core raids requires 3-4 nites of 3-4 hours each .. that is too much. It may be more efficient .. but still too much time per week.

    I can easily play only 4 hours a week on one game ... and may take weeks to accomplish what it takes hard core raider a week.

    And playing a game is about having FUN .. not about being efficient.

    And also the requirement to get into hard core raiding is ridiculous. I did it before. Send in an application. Talk to an officer. Schedule a "interview" raid. It is a game .. not a job. The point is ... i want to play a game whenever i want to have fun .. i don't need to be efficient, and i certainly don't want to file an application first.

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Member UncommonPosts: 1,290
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Jimmydean

     

    I always found this attitude to be funny. Casuals waste 10 hours PUGing to accomplish what "hardcores" can in 1 hour. Being hardcore isnt about wasting time, its about being efficient.

    You assume wrong. Hard core raids requires 3-4 nites of 3-4 hours each .. that is too much. It may be more efficient .. but still too much time per week.

    I can easily play only 4 hours a week on one game ... and may take weeks to accomplish what it takes hard core raider a week.

    And playing a game is about having FUN .. not about being efficient.

    And also the requirement to get into hard core raiding is ridiculous. I did it before. Send in an application. Talk to an officer. Schedule a "interview" raid. It is a game .. not a job. The point is ... i want to play a game whenever i want to have fun .. i don't need to be efficient, and i certainly don't want to file an application first.

    What did I assume exactly? I stated that I find your attitude to be funny, how is that assuming anything? The things I stated were true.

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Member UncommonPosts: 2,551
    Originally posted by Vrdict
    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    (1) is not even true. In WOW, early dungeons (after L10) gives MUCH better loot (in fact, you get a blue item just by completing) and faster xp. In DCUO, there are QUESTS in the quest chain that introduces you to dungeon runs. There are many examples like this.

    (2) is true. I remember I have to file an application form, and an "interview" run, before i was let into this raiding guild.

    I think casual raiding is what is needed to revitalize raiding. LFR is a step in the right direction. Less commitment, less time consuming, less exclusivity.

    Of course the really hard core raiders don't like that .. but I don't suppose i would care about what they want.

     

    Well if you think raids should be public then raiding clearly isn't for you. You should stick to your candyland barbie house bs and leave the raiding to those who are skilled enough that they require an application process to weed out those that are idiots or those who aren't either skilled enough yet, or just don't have the mind capacity to follow simple instructions.

    With those people in raids, a raid that could easily take 2 hours suddenly balloons to 7 hours of frustration.

    Many of these comments regarding 'raiding' in games are simply instances requiring more than one group, to be a game with 'raiding' there needs to be enough content to actually have raid progression, not just a couple meaningless zones that /gasp/ require TWO groups instead of ONE! Oh my!

    Without raiding, what is there that is seriously worth paying for an MMO? The sub par inbalanced PvP? The group content made so any adolescent can plow through it by just randomly clicking colors? Where is the difficulty? The sense of accomplishment?

    Some talk about hardcore raiding like its a bunch of people with no lives, but the simple fact is the majority of MMO's content are nothing more than time sinks. I mean a game as new as RIFT and it doesn't have any functions to auto sort the inventory or any inventory management at all? Because they want you to pay for the hours you spend organizing it yourself.

    So who is the person with no life? The person who plays 2 hours a day and spends maybe half of that time hurdling time sinks? Or the person who pays the same amount per month, but instead spends 4-5 hours a day running raids with a group of other highly skilled players who can cram 10 hours of content into that 4-5 hours?

    You heard it here first, folks.  Video games are serious business.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
     

    What did I assume exactly? I stated that I find your attitude to be funny, how is that assuming anything? The things I stated were true.

    LOL ... how is your "OPINION" true?

    There are people who don't play games to be "efficient". They do it for enjoyment.

  • NextAceNextAce Member Posts: 3

    I say right on bro, because I haven't had fun raiding since RO. didn't even have to be hardcore raiding it was just basic leveling.

    Then there was end game boss raids, where I would find a good guild, look up some tips, fail at a boss, and laugh about it later because we know we all did something wrong and our priest would have transported in wait for the boss to move away from us just to res us and try again with a new tactic.

    This generation doesn't know how to socialize properly and the ones that do, only meet utter (for a lack of a better word) dicks. that think their pros, or they're all hormonic junky's which just annoy everyone...

    So devs work around it by just not making early game party play, making us think its fine to play till end game and get bored. No game will realise this till we better ourselves. and really whose going to do that.

    My suggestion is for devs to incorperate party play early game, you know quest (not repeatables) where you run a good dungeon with a good LFP system. or a place where you can camp outside of said dungeon with a LFP sign. (such and such level please). This also helps the guild system with you meeting people who are replaying, who have connections to a good guild. Helps pvp by getting early gear, or getting more used to your playing style. and longevity because we all know it, friends help you stay for longer.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066

    I hope that raiding dies so that what makes raiding fun, mechanics, start to appear in the open world.

    Originally posted by NextAce

    My suggestion is for devs to incorperate party play early game, you know quest (not repeatables) where you run a good dungeon with a good LFP system. or a place where you can camp outside of said dungeon with a LFP sign. (such and such level please). This also helps the guild system with you meeting people who are replaying, who have connections to a good guild. Helps pvp by getting early gear, or getting more used to your playing style. and longevity because we all know it, friends help you stay for longer.

    I don't agree that making what prevents raiding to be a fun experience available in even early content will help.

    I also disagree with the PvP part - never understood why should people that want to pvp actually have to PvE. Just give the PvPers PvP gear and let them go do what they want.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • IndolIndol Member Posts: 189
    Originally posted by Dibdabs

    As long as there are players who delight in riding the Hamster Wheel Of Monotony day after day after day after day... raiding will remain the laziest way for game designers to provide what passes for game content at level cap.  Sadly.

     

    I have to agree.

     

    Rift was the first game I truely hardcore raided in and after a couple months it suddenly dawned on me that I didn't even enjoy it. Sure we had some good times and laughs but it had nothing to do with the actual raids, which in the end are repetitive and uninteresting. It very much felt like a "Hamster Wheel Of Monotony". image

     

    Raiding was the default endgame for MMO's for over a decade. I for one welcome change.

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by Vrdict

    it's been a downward trend since EQ, which is still the king of raiding. EQ2 would fall right behind it in 2nd, where the vast majority of active players are only there for raiding. WoW and RIFT both have raids, but neither offer the same atmosphere, intensity, require the same level of skill, and because of these reasons don't have the same sense of accomplishment that you'll find in EQ. Vanguard it's an afterthought, I actually formed a hardcore raiding guild for Vanguard on it's release only to be completely disappointed by the lack of raiding, and lack of loot on existing raid mobs, so much so that the entire guild moved on to WoW.

    So here we are, 14 years after Everquests release, and EQ is still on top of the food chain for hardcore raiding? Majority of MMORPG's coming out either don't offer raiding or offer it as a compensation prize in the form of 10 mans and other junk? The only possible savior being EQ Next which won't be out for years and I'm simply assuming it will have proper raids based on it's pedigree and nothing more?

    It's a sad time to be a hardcore raider and seeing the genre you loved for so long is nearly extinguished.

    maybe try Final Fantasy XI ?

    it was known for having an 18 hour raid boass

    http://kotaku.com/5036371/final-fantasy-xi-boss-takes-at-least-18-hours-to-beat

     

  • kastakasta Member Posts: 512

    Raiding died for me back in EQ1.  It was fun chattting with everyone while the raid was forming but the actual raid itself was not fun.  I enjoyed the social aspect of raiding but not the raid itself.  Rewards were pathetic and time investment was insane.  I'll never get involved with that again.

  • MahavishnuMahavishnu Member Posts: 336

    Raiding is a good experience, if multiple players come together in order to defeat a huge monster (or an army of monsters).

    But I never really liked raiding for obvious reasons:

    -Elitist item-grind-stuff that motivates just because some nerds think "Oh, I am so much better then everybody else, because I have epix!" This destroys the community. In the end an MMO should bring thousands of players together to have fun together and not create jealousy and greed.

    -Timeconsuming. EQ was a game for nerds who played 24/7, but today people tend more and more to have a job and a family. MMOs should be like every other game - time does not change the core mechanics. If you invest more time, you get better, but every game stays the same as it is. LeBron James does not get shoes that let him jump higher, just because he is the MVP. Moreover, I and many others hate it, when a game trys to dominate my life and my weekly schedule. This is completely absurd. Add the elitist thinking of hard-core-raiders and all the negativity created by that, and nobody should be surprised, that raiding is so unpopular.

    -No fun allowed. I have to farm my T0-set before I can raid with my guild, I have no time to just have fun in the game. I have to farm mats for potions, enchants, etc, I have no time to do something that makes fun. Raiding is the only thing that matters in a game, everything else is for casual-losers, I have no time to be a loser, I have to farm more and more....

    -Linear and boring gameplay. This is the most interesting fact. In the end raiding is very dumb. You do the same over and over again until you succeed. Oh and of course it is hard, when 10-40 people are connected via internet and have to react in a matter of seconds. I never understood why players ignore the fact, that lag makes raiding hard.

    -No more freedom to play my class like I want to. I know hundreds of healers, that don't want to heal. And then all those guides that tell you, how you have to skill your character, what buttons you have to hit when in which order. Sometimes I thought "Why do I continue playing? I am like a robot. Is there not a bot for that?"

    -video-guides, add-ons, teamspeak, etc. A big pile of garbage that destroys the immersion.

    Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.

  • GravargGravarg Member UncommonPosts: 3,424

    There's no more 40man raids, but 25 and 10 man are still popular.  My guild does them all the time.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Vrdict

    it's been a downward trend since EQ, which is still the king of raiding. EQ2 would fall right behind it in 2nd, where the vast majority of active players are only there for raiding. WoW and RIFT both have raids, but neither offer the same atmosphere, intensity, require the same level of skill, and because of these reasons don't have the same sense of accomplishment that you'll find in EQ. Vanguard it's an afterthought, I actually formed a hardcore raiding guild for Vanguard on it's release only to be completely disappointed by the lack of raiding, and lack of loot on existing raid mobs, so much so that the entire guild moved on to WoW.

    So here we are, 14 years after Everquests release, and EQ is still on top of the food chain for hardcore raiding? Majority of MMORPG's coming out either don't offer raiding or offer it as a compensation prize in the form of 10 mans and other junk? The only possible savior being EQ Next which won't be out for years and I'm simply assuming it will have proper raids based on it's pedigree and nothing more?

    It's a sad time to be a hardcore raider and seeing the genre you loved for so long is nearly extinguished.

    maybe try Final Fantasy XI ?

    it was known for having an 18 hour raid boass

    http://kotaku.com/5036371/final-fantasy-xi-boss-takes-at-least-18-hours-to-beat

     

    18 hours raid boss? That is even more than what i would do in my real job. I guess i will avoid this "game".

  • mindw0rkmindw0rk Member UncommonPosts: 1,356

    Id say there is TOO MUCH raiding in MMORPGs. We need something fresh for end game content

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by mindw0rk

    Id say there is TOO MUCH raiding in MMORPGs. We need something fresh for end game content

    We don't. If you don't like end game content, play another game when you get to end game. There are so many MMOs out there (and many are free) that you will never run out of "non-end game" content.

  • maplestonemaplestone Member UncommonPosts: 3,099
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    If you don't like end game content, play another game when you get to end game.

    My attitude is that a game that ends like this should never be started in the first place.

  • blognorgblognorg Member UncommonPosts: 643
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Prepare for disappointment then. Any company that wants to make money isn't going to have hardcore 40-man raids. You'll most likely never see those again. I promise yout that the next EQ won't either. You are setting yourself up for dissappointment. The whole MMO genre used to be pretty niche, but now it's almost as mainstream as any other genre. The old player mentality has been diluted by the masses, and the masses don't want 40-man raids. If companies want to make it financially, then they have to pay attention to what the market wants. Even in some wacky alternate dimension where they actually make one that's hardcore, it would either be indie, or it would collapse under its own budget due to a lock of revenue from the player-base. Sorry, dude; a hardcore AAA game is just not in the cards anymore.

    And there are good reasons.

    Even getting 25 people commiting to a raiding schedule is a chore. 40 is almost impossible. And why would anyone want that? More people = more drama = more scheduling headaches.

    A game is for entertainment and for fun. There is no reason why the game cannot be designed so that people can jump in at any time and play as a group. In fact, there are MMO features that accomplishes that.

    In my mind, it is a GOOD thing that the old arcane 40+ man raids are no longer the focus of the industry.

    I mean, I'm sure it sucks for some people. It's a niche thing that people really enjoyed doing. I have never done a raid in my life, but I know several people that miss the 40-mans. It's just not financially prudent for a company to pander to a niche group anymore. To be honest, that makes me a little sad, beacuse niche games are often the most fun, rather than some bland, watered down game to appeal to the masses that's guaranteed to sell. The MMO scene is getting kind of crazy right now, but maybe once things settle down there will be more games that target specific groups.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,823
    Wake up guys, you are talking about EQ and WoW. Raiding is being down scaled in modern MMO’s, it is seen as another gameplay activity that not enough players want to do. It will not die, but has become a easymode shadow of its former self already.
     
    No one says ‘I don’t like leveling’ or ‘I don’t like loot’. Only the elements of gameplay which we all want get dev attention squandered on them. Anything else is a secondary concern, and that’s firmly where raiding is now.
     
    Players who dont like raiding, pvp, grouping, guilds or whatever do not realise the effect they are having on MMO's. MMO's have to good at hardly anything these days. To make a game that sells (and you do realise that is all that matters?) all you need is good graphics, leveling and loot and thats it. You throw in some half hearted grouping and raiding so you can say the game has them for press releases and wait for the cash to flow in.
     
    After a couple of months players who like to play a MMO for longer periods realise there is hardly anything there for them. But they are a minority, the game has already made its money, it was never made for players who would stick with it for more than a few months anyway.
     
    That is where SWTOR is now, TSW will be in a few months and GW2 will be in a few months after its launch. All modern MMO's use the same mould, so how would they end up any other way?
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    If you don't like end game content, play another game when you get to end game.

    My attitude is that a game that ends like this should never be started in the first place.

    All games end. If the front part of the game is fun, why gimp yourself and not play it?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Prepare for disappointment then. Any company that wants to make money isn't going to have hardcore 40-man raids. You'll most likely never see those again. I promise yout that the next EQ won't either. You are setting yourself up for dissappointment. The whole MMO genre used to be pretty niche, but now it's almost as mainstream as any other genre. The old player mentality has been diluted by the masses, and the masses don't want 40-man raids. If companies want to make it financially, then they have to pay attention to what the market wants. Even in some wacky alternate dimension where they actually make one that's hardcore, it would either be indie, or it would collapse under its own budget due to a lock of revenue from the player-base. Sorry, dude; a hardcore AAA game is just not in the cards anymore.

    And there are good reasons.

    Even getting 25 people commiting to a raiding schedule is a chore. 40 is almost impossible. And why would anyone want that? More people = more drama = more scheduling headaches.

    A game is for entertainment and for fun. There is no reason why the game cannot be designed so that people can jump in at any time and play as a group. In fact, there are MMO features that accomplishes that.

    In my mind, it is a GOOD thing that the old arcane 40+ man raids are no longer the focus of the industry.

    I mean, I'm sure it sucks for some people. It's a niche thing that people really enjoyed doing. I have never done a raid in my life, but I know several people that miss the 40-mans. It's just not financially prudent for a company to pander to a niche group anymore. To be honest, that makes me a little sad, beacuse niche games are often the most fun, rather than some bland, watered down game to appeal to the masses that's guaranteed to sell. The MMO scene is getting kind of crazy right now, but maybe once things settle down there will be more games that target specific groups.

    That is elitist.

    What sell is fun to the masses. What make you so special that dev should only cater to YOUR fun but not the masses?

     

  • blognorgblognorg Member UncommonPosts: 643
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by blognorg
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Prepare for disappointment then. Any company that wants to make money isn't going to have hardcore 40-man raids. You'll most likely never see those again. I promise yout that the next EQ won't either. You are setting yourself up for dissappointment. The whole MMO genre used to be pretty niche, but now it's almost as mainstream as any other genre. The old player mentality has been diluted by the masses, and the masses don't want 40-man raids. If companies want to make it financially, then they have to pay attention to what the market wants. Even in some wacky alternate dimension where they actually make one that's hardcore, it would either be indie, or it would collapse under its own budget due to a lock of revenue from the player-base. Sorry, dude; a hardcore AAA game is just not in the cards anymore.

    And there are good reasons.

    Even getting 25 people commiting to a raiding schedule is a chore. 40 is almost impossible. And why would anyone want that? More people = more drama = more scheduling headaches.

    A game is for entertainment and for fun. There is no reason why the game cannot be designed so that people can jump in at any time and play as a group. In fact, there are MMO features that accomplishes that.

    In my mind, it is a GOOD thing that the old arcane 40+ man raids are no longer the focus of the industry.

    I mean, I'm sure it sucks for some people. It's a niche thing that people really enjoyed doing. I have never done a raid in my life, but I know several people that miss the 40-mans. It's just not financially prudent for a company to pander to a niche group anymore. To be honest, that makes me a little sad, beacuse niche games are often the most fun, rather than some bland, watered down game to appeal to the masses that's guaranteed to sell. The MMO scene is getting kind of crazy right now, but maybe once things settle down there will be more games that target specific groups.

    That is elitist.

    What sell is fun to the masses. What make you so special that dev should only cater to YOUR fun but not the masses?

     

    You're right. That does come off as a little elitest, but that wasn't my intent. However, it's true that people have more fun with something appeals to their intersts in more ways. Like raiding, for instance. It doesn't appeal to the masses, so it got stripped out, but where does that leave the people that really like it. When a company starts stripping features out because they're not popular enough, the game kind of gets watered down. It gets diluted by the mass appeal. Honestly, I don't have a huge problem with a game vying for mass appeal. I just think it will become problematic if everyone starts doing that... which they kind of have already. I mean, why do you think the indie market has grown considerably over the last several years? Well, partially because games are so goddamned expensive now that hardly anyone can afford to make a AAA title. But a lot of it also has to do with the ideas in them. They're risky and often niche, and big companies can't take that risk. The indie market is really diverse and interesting, because games can afford to be made for a select group. Honestly, I probably play more indie games than I do AAA, because I love some of the niche tites, and I'm not alone on this.

  • busdriverbusdriver Member Posts: 859

    God I hope so.

  • maplestonemaplestone Member UncommonPosts: 3,099
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    All games end. If the front part of the game is fun, why gimp yourself and not play it?

    You and I apparently have radically different notions of what an MMO is.  I have little interest in playing an MMO that does not aspire to still be around in a hundred years.

    (but this isn't really the right thread for this discussion)

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