My problem with this is: In reality the state of most dynamic event areas will change on an hourly or daily basis. In effect your actions have no meaning other than setting the quest to a certain state for the next group of players. This is basically an endless loop. You can play however you want to because there is no real consequences for your actions. If you come back a few days later you will not know what state the quest is in because there are no long term repurcussions to your previous actions.
The second point is that the outcome is not defined by a single player but by several players thus individuality is lost. If the majority wants to kill the dragon then that is what is going to happen. If you as a lone player want the dragon to destroy the town so you can loot the leftovers then you will fail. This is just an example of how you as a player do not have a real choice.
What you're describing is essentially the difference between a singleplayer and a multiplayer game. A single player game can make you a hero, by essentially handing you power and saying 'you are now supposed to do this with your power'. A multiplayer game cannot do this. It always comes down to the fact that you are playing with other people, and if they make everyone super powerful, then no one really is. That's one of the tradeoffs of choosing a multiplayer game over a singleplayer game. You loose inherent individuality in favor of larger-scale, more social gameplay. If you want more individuality in a multiplayer game, you usually have to earn it yourself, unlike in a single player game.
And you're right about not knowing the state of things when you go back to them. However, that's got nothing to do with the longevity. If you are in a more populated area, you can be reasonably sure that someone will pick up the slack when you're gone. Once you start venturing out into sparcer and sparcer areas, that becomes much more questionable. Hell, even in just one of the 15-25 areas I was coming across events that I was not only struggling to succeed, but that I knew I couldn't keep safe. So I had to evactuate. That event, as far as I know, stayed failed the entire weekend, except for 1 time that I momentary succeeded in repairing the bridge.
It may seem like an endless loop to you, but it would still seem that way even if the pacing was slowed WAAY down to months at a time. The only difference would be that there would be less and less at stake in each area. It would basically come down to 'okay, lets rush to succeed all these events and then take a breather for a month'. There would be no sense of urgency. Once something happened, you'd know it would stay that way, regardless of what anyone did, for a certain amount of time. That takes away from the chaotic nature of the game, and kind of defeats the entire point of having a living-breathing world.
- Skills limited to weapons? I mean come on, in any mmo, at max level, you'll only ever use the top 5~10 skills. You will not use any more. So whats wrong with letting us have those top 5~10 skills immediately and at least each class can use different weapons rather than just 1.
This is total utter bullshit.Just because he likes to play traditional MMORPG's with more than one hotbar with 30-60 abilities on it dosn't mean he is some way stuck in a timewarp.If you prefer rolling around 'action combat' with 4 buttons to click then go ahead enjoy it.In EQ2 I have many alts and not a single one of them presses 5-10 attacks/abilities only,not even at level 12 lol.
This thread is specifically for people who DON'T like GW2. I'm hoping to gain some understanding in a few areas. Primarily, what is it you don't like about the game? Explanations in most other threads don't go far beyond "the questing system is the same" or some similarly vague responses. Obviously I'm a fan of the game (as you could probably tell by my signiture). Many of the complaints don't make sense to me right now. Here are some examples.
"The combat isn't that innovative". -- So you would prefer to have stagnant combat?
"The quests aren't innovative" -- So you would prefer a normal quest system rather than dinamic events?
"The quests have the same objectives as in other MMO's (Gathering, killing, etc)" -- These are the only objectives you can possibly have in a video game. Some form of killing, gathering, solving, or protecting. All objectives in every game revolve around doing one of those four things. What other objectives were you looking for?
"Everything is zerging" -- This is only true if you consider a zerg to be any large collection of players. To me, a zerg is any group of players that just spams attacks and steamrolls everything. Zerging, by this definition, is impossible in WvWvW (you will just get destroyed by siege equipment) and in PvE it depends on the DE. Having said that, what were some of you expecting playing with large groups of players to be like? Is there any reference of a game involving dozens and dozens of players that doesn't result in chaotic gameplay?
"The trinity isn't actually dead" -- This is one of the more stunning complaints. Not once throughout my experience did I ever sit in town or have to wait for a group, much less a specific class. In fact I roamed the countryside with a full group of thieves and we did great.
"The game is Pay 2 Win" -- How? Every item in the cash shop is completely anti-P2W. Would some of you prefer to pay a subscription fee rather than have a cash shop with completely optional items? If so, explain why.
More specifically, for any reason you may have I'm looking for what you were expecting it to be like and some reference of a game (out or even in development) that seems to do it better. Go crazy .
I have specific objections that i predicted that will keep gw2 success in the lvls of gw1 and maybe a little better.
1.Should be instance free. there should be a realistic like world without screen loading zones every once in a while.Also the when u r in a city that stupid harbor 1-10 when u r with friends in the same spot and cant see them cause u rin harbr1 and your friends are in harbor 4 its completely ridicullus and cuts from a solid gameworld.Also free pvp should be there. Even wow which is considered the ultimate themepark ts a free world where whover wants can pvp everywhere.For gun? Sure just for fun but u have that option.
2.Absence of Character continual develepoment-improvement like say for ever or at least throught lots lots pf content even in slow rythm is a huge minor for the game.Once u hit the level cap,its over. All u can get is aesthetic gear. Thats the biggest issue for any role playing gamers that respect themselfs and the role playing game's standards and values. The Gw2 fans for some wierd reason they keep saying aesthetic rewards offers to players. Sure. As much as the various epiq mounts offers to wow.Nothing. And since there is no improvement in toons after cap many players will quit after a period since there is nothing with meaning (keeep improving stats with talents feats,skill points,gear) its like u play cod or something.it will be fun but after a point u realise there is no point.
3.I watched some videos with a large number of players in the screen and honestly? From all those uber duper super shiny effects ,i couldnt tell what the heck was going on who was attacking whom,close or ranged it was just a mess like some korean mmos we see in tube from videos where all u can see is effects and cant see the enemies. I just hope there will be options to enable/disable the effects or at least minimize them so they wont be annoying in big fights.
Other than that the rest elements are good from what i see and read,combat is working good its new n fresh,pvp will be good,the random events in the wilds seem to work,leveling could be fun,pvp tournaments will be fun.
- Nearly same combat mechanics as other MMOs. Adding in dodge doesn't make it new. TERAs combat is far more innovative than GW2.
- Dynamic events are just normal quests in a different package. In the end it is just prepared content with only one outcome possibility and geared to be achievable for everyone. Add in different outcomes and a high difficulty level with long term consequences for failing and it may catch my attention.
- The guild wars 1 skill system was superior to this one. It was dumbed down heavily to remove choice.
- No mouse look toggle key or I haven't found it yet. I hate holding the right mouse button throughout the whole game.
- Cant say much about the crafting since I haven't tried it yet but from the descriptions it seems to be the same as in the other themepark MMOs: Streamlined and easy. Nothing that would make you want to go to crafter A rather than crafter B for your weapon.
- No long term progression mechanics. Its all about playing through the content once like in every other MMO.
- Easy. As usual failure is not an option. The game plays very much like an arcade game. No depth and no freedom of choice.
Basically this is the usual theme park MMO with a slightly different packaging and near to zero innovation. No, adding dodge is NOT innovation, nor is the different quest setup. Innovation is doing something that hasn't been done before and I fail to find any feature that is new to the world of pc gaming.
1. Really. Combat the same as other MMOs? Since you reference Tera as far more innovative, I assume you are basing this statement solely on GW2 having tab target lock. Because Tera's actual skill usage in combat is, if anything, more similar to wow than any of teh other big name titles coming out this generation. Every fight is 1 2 3, 1 2 3, dodge, 1 2 3. I never felt as though I could just repeat a rotation on cooldown in GW2. I had to constantly change my tactcs to meet what was going on.
2. You're right in that DEs are a different packaging for a quest. However, they are not one outcome. Often times, completing a DE spawns a new DE...and failing the first one spawns a different second one.
3. I chalk this one up to matter of opinion. I'll admit the trait system and lack of mult-classing limit it in some ways, and in others focus is better. It's really up to you.
4. Never saw anything for mouselook, didn't bother me to be honest.
5. What would you LIKE to see in crafting? I'll admit your points are valid, but I'd like to hear what you'd want different.
6. Please define what you mean by "long term progression mechanic" What would you like to see?
7. Easy? Can I guess that you did a couple of the starter DEs around Queensdale and never touched the game again? Cause it's anything but easy.
As to the innovation complaint...it does the same thing other games have, but better, and in slightly different ways. At the end of the day did I play it and have fun? Yup. That's good enough for me.
As to the innovation complaint...it does the same thing other games have, but better, and in slightly different ways. At the end of the day did I play it and have fun? Yup. That's good enough for me.
The "innovation complaint" is rather easy to explain. It's like comparing a Ferrari with an 1000$ car. They are both cars but similarities end there. Same with DEs and PQs/Rifts they both offer party-less play and their similarities end there.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
I am sorry if i am being off-topic, but after i read a couple of this thread's pages i realise one thing:
MMORPGs forum logic is following:
-Person 1: Oh come on, we want something new and different than same old [insert old-school MMORPG name here] clone!!!!
-Person 2: Oh look at Guild Wars 2. It is new and different.
-Person 1: Oh, come on, but it is new and different , we just wanted same old [insert old-school MMORPG name here] clone!!!! That game is not true MMORPG
Honor to those who are different, but majority seems to be like this. I can respect the opinion of people that think it is the same old. If they felt like that, it is their feeling and its ok, I respect that. But if you wanted the same old, while the game is even marketed as being different, then why are you here on GW2 section at the first place??
Not meant to defend game or anything. I already did expressed my objective opinion on things i didnt liked about this game. But i think this thread is gone waaay to far from its origin topic. It has come to people posting here only to say "it is bad because it isnt TSW"? Sad
The problem is that you think Person 3 is Person 1.
Sometime it is, sometime its not. Heck sometime Person 3 will pretend that he was Person 1. Its the nature of this forum (very odd though). I was just trying to point out what was this thread became.
Could you point out a few examples where it is evident that person 3 is really person 1?
You will pardon me, but i have my own reasons why i wont do that. I would rather be proven wrong than quote someone from these forums. Plus, I have little time to browse trough other people post histories. Even more because, in some cases, you may be right as well so its pointless anyway.
If you think i mix Person 1 and 3, let it be that way. However i know what i saw here during years and i dont want to discuss it any further. This thread is already high above the stratosphere. Be well and have a nice day.
So you do a claim which is not trivial at all and can even considered to be inflammatory, but you are unwilling to provide links to sources that back up your claim?
I'll requote you:
-Person 1: Oh come on, we want something new and different than same old [insert old-school MMORPG name here] clone!!!!
-Person 1: Oh, come on, but it is new and different , we just wanted same old [insert old-school MMORPG name here] clone!!!! That game is not true MMORPG
and then ask you for examples supporting your portrayal of person 1.
1. Really. Combat the same as other MMOs? Since you reference Tera as far more innovative, I assume you are basing this statement solely on GW2 having tab target lock. Because Tera's actual skill usage in combat is, if anything, more similar to wow than any of teh other big name titles coming out this generation. Every fight is 1 2 3, 1 2 3, dodge, 1 2 3. I never felt as though I could just repeat a rotation on cooldown in GW2. I had to constantly change my tactcs to meet what was going on.
I have to admit that, as a FPS player, I am quite biased. I am used to freedom of movement and the need to aim my skills / weapons with player skill being important. Such an environment is what I want in an MMO and that is how I measure the combat mechanics. In Tera you have a lot of freedom because of the multiple movement skills and the active aiming and dodging. There are hardly any homing skills in the game. In my opinion GW2 has not progressed far enough away from normal tab-targetting games for me to call it something new.
2. You're right in that DEs are a different packaging for a quest. However, they are not one outcome. Often times, completing a DE spawns a new DE...and failing the first one spawns a different second one.
I stand corrected about the outcomes. Let me ask you this though: Are the majority of the DEs of such a difficulty, that most groups fail? And does failure or success have real consequences for everyone in the game? If not they are meaningless and just the same as the quests of your typical theme park even though the presentation is a lot better.
3. I chalk this one up to matter of opinion. I'll admit the trait system and lack of mult-classing limit it in some ways, and in others focus is better. It's really up to you.
Agreed. I am a fan of complex systems. Thats why I also prefer Path of Exile to D3.
4. Never saw anything for mouselook, didn't bother me to be honest.
As an FPS player I want my usual controls. That is WASD + mouselook + crosshair at all times. Always holding down the right mouse button does get tiresome...
5. What would you LIKE to see in crafting? I'll admit your points are valid, but I'd like to hear what you'd want different.
In general: Complexity that allows for crafter differentiation. Good crafters should be rare and popular. Pursuing a crafting career should be difficult but rewarding. The game must allow for crafting to have different results depending on the crafters character stats, used materials and the players knowledge and skill. You understand the formulas involved in crafting? You explore the world for good materials (and no other rewards)? Your char has good stats? You do well in the difficult crafting minigames? Then players should be spamming you with crafting orders all the time because there are not many players who do that well in crafting.
6. Please define what you mean by "long term progression mechanic" What would you like to see?
Basically a reason to play other than story content. Here are some examples:
- A progressing crafting system (you can make recursivly better crafting tools and items).
- Building a player town.
- A world with evolving mobs and the capability to copy their evolved skills and put them on weapons. You would want to explore the world in hopes of finding good skills. Your goal: To create a weapon with the ultimate skill composition.
7. Easy? Can I guess that you did a couple of the starter DEs around Queensdale and never touched the game again? Cause it's anything but easy.
You are correct. I only started playing last beta weekend. I am sorry to say, but difficult would mean that 50% of the players would not be able to solve the event. The very definition of easy is that most players get past the obstacle in a timely manner ...which I do not want because I actually like challenges.
As to the innovation complaint...it does the same thing other games have, but better, and in slightly different ways. At the end of the day did I play it and have fun? Yup. That's good enough for me.
If it is fun for you then no problem. No arguments from me. I had a lot of fun playing Tera even though the quest system IS god aweful.
As for innovation: Doing something slightly better is evolution. Innovation is when you have a sufficiently large step of evolution. GW2 is the next evolutionary step of theme parks games? Yes I agree. GW2 is the next evolutionary step of MMOs in general? Debateable. GW2 is a 'next gen' MMO with lots of innovative features? Nope, definately not.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I am sorry if i am being off-topic, but after i read a couple of this thread's pages i realise one thing:
MMORPGs forum logic is following:
-Person 1: Oh come on, we want something new and different than same old [insert old-school MMORPG name here] clone!!!!
-Person 2: Oh look at Guild Wars 2. It is new and different.
-Person 1: Oh, come on, but it is new and different , we just wanted same old [insert old-school MMORPG name here] clone!!!! That game is not true MMORPG
Honor to those who are different, but majority seems to be like this. I can respect the opinion of people that think it is the same old. If they felt like that, it is their feeling and its ok, I respect that. But if you wanted the same old, while the game is even marketed as being different, then why are you here on GW2 section at the first place??
Not meant to defend game or anything. I already did expressed my objective opinion on things i didnt liked about this game. But i think this thread is gone waaay to far from its origin topic. It has come to people posting here only to say "it is bad because it isnt TSW"? Sad
The problem is that you think Person 3 is Person 1.
Sometime it is, sometime its not. Heck sometime Person 3 will pretend that he was Person 1. Its the nature of this forum (very odd though). I was just trying to point out what was this thread became.
Could you point out a few examples where it is evident that person 3 is really person 1?
You will pardon me, but i have my own reasons why i wont do that. I would rather be proven wrong than quote someone from these forums. Plus, I have little time to browse trough other people post histories. Even more because, in some cases, you may be right as well so its pointless anyway.
If you think i mix Person 1 and 3, let it be that way. However i know what i saw here during years and i dont want to discuss it any further. This thread is already high above the stratosphere. Be well and have a nice day.
So you do a claim which is not trivial at all and can even considered to be inflammatory, but you are unwilling to provide links to sources that back up your claim?
I'll requote you:
-Person 1: Oh come on, we want something new and different than same old [insert old-school MMORPG name here] clone!!!!
-Person 1: Oh, come on, but it is new and different , we just wanted same old [insert old-school MMORPG name here] clone!!!! That game is not true MMORPG
and then ask you for examples supporting your portrayal of person 1.
Not trivial? inflammatory? To whom? If i offended you in anyway, i do apologize. However i didnt mentioned anyone particular, i just made an algorythm of many (or i may be driven to conclude that it is) attitude towards one game, Guild Wars 2 in this case. I surely didnt point a finger to anyone, or talked tongue-in-cheek. Be it person 1 or 2 or 5 or 10. Like i said, honor to those who are different
As i said before, you wont see me quoting anyone here. Never, ever. If the price is you, thinking that i drop lies all around, let it be. I got my own principles and i wont cross them, what ever consequences that may be. On the other hand, if you have that much spare time, you can browse this very subforum and see for yourself
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2 Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
- Nearly same combat mechanics as other MMOs. Adding in dodge doesn't make it new. TERAs combat is far more innovative than GW2.
I am always surprised if people claim, that Teras combat system would be the best or innovative in any way. Well, you have to aim your target. Thats nothing new but fine and adds more complexity, which is always welcome. But you have to stand still in order to cast. How lame and archaic is that?
I dont say GW2s system is better after all. Both combat-systems are one-dimensional. Its fast paced action oriented combat for everyone. No matter if this style fits to a class / role or not. Innovation would be, introducing multiple combat styles in one game, or get rid of this damn dice rolling in the back since 20 years, or get rid of the HP bar ...
i am afraid my understanding of the term innovation is much different. I just saw smaller steps of evolution so far in both games.
Originally posted by Wolvards Originally posted by MosesZDOriginally posted by DannyGloverOriginally posted by MosesZDOriginally posted by Lord.BachusOriginally posted by HeroEvermoreThe art style and animations just ruin the game for me.Short and simple. Just 1 noobs opinion
Art style is something that¨people can have different opinions of, but in general with the many prices that GW2 allready won to proove it, the majorrity of people adores the art style of GW2. But if you disagree, thats your opinion.The annimations are technically the most advanced of any MMO to date, because they still allow total freedom of movement while battling while still feeling very natural to me. Could you please explain what exactly you dont like about the annimations?So far, he's been this threads only honest complainant. He doesn't like the art. He honestly admits that it's a personal preference. I know where he's coming from. No matter how many times I try to play WoW. No matter the race, I get there by Level 10. It's just too ugly, to me, to play. Others love it. I'm happy for them.The rest of the complainants... I just laugh. Some of them would destroy the reachable market with unrealistic, computor crushing demands. Not every MMO player has a top-end system, and what they ask for would require a top-end, not elite, but still top-end system. The worst, IMO, are the ones hiding behind lazy, vague cliche' complaints while screaming for innovation without making specific complaints or pointing these 'obvious' innovations that should be in the game.Im pretty sure my opinions on the matter were honest So far. Which was to a post on page 1. And I don't consider a complaint that is based on personal opinion presented as 'fact' to be honest. You may not like the PvE combat system. It's a personal opinion. Saying it's 'trash' as if that were an unassailable fact instead of personal opinion is dishonest as you assign a false-certainty to your feelings about the matter. De gustibus non est disputandum. In taste there is no dispute. Yet, in taste, there is also no honesty or truth. It is purely subjective. What is a masterpiece for one man is another's disaster. How Picasso got money for all those paintings is beyond me... I hate them all... I do not assert Picasso was a hack and spam Picasso forums about how much he sucked and he'd have been good if he were Van Gogh. I recognize his paintings were not for me. I recognize many people believe him to be a great artist. I do not trash his works on matters of personal taste.And yet I read the complaints. And, for the most part, they are not technical, measurable complaints. They are complaints of taste disguised as 'unassailable fact' which is then used to blugeon, mock and put-down others who disagree based on their taste in games without even the slightest self-awareness on the behalf of the complaintant.Top notch post, and pretty much sums up everything i've read too. Big +1 to MosesZD.
Hmm. Well the title of this thread is called "Explain Your Opinion" so coming in here and dismissing all these posts because they arent based on fact is kind of silly. And my opinions had nothing to do with combat btw.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Fact is, no game is going to appeal to everyone. That includes GW2. No amount of attempting to change peoples' opinions in internet forums is going to work.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
Originally posted by Scarlyng Fact is, no game is going to appeal to everyone. That includes GW2. No amount of attempting to change peoples' opinions in internet forums is going to work.
this it true. Was this thread just an open invitation to bash people over a difference of opinion on a game?
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Fact is, no game is going to appeal to everyone. That includes GW2. No amount of attempting to change peoples' opinions in internet forums is going to work.
That's true, but a lot of the criticism towards GW2 occurs because people simply don't know what they are talking about (e.g. Thorbrand).
Secondly, some people seem to think it's fashionable to go against the hype even if said hype is based on facts and gameplay.
Finally, there is a lot of "Nirvana Fallacy" when it comes to GW2 (i.e. if it's not perfect then it's trash). For example, many people complain that Dynamic Events are not completely permanent or are similar in mechanics to regular quests yet completely ignore the fact that the delivery system and consequences for the events is still leaps and bounds better than the traditional quest-giver/quest-hub system.
It also seems like a lot of people complain because GW2 doesn't have sandbox elements, which it never claimed it would have.
Originally posted by Badaboom I just dont understand a 21 page thread that basically wants you to justify your gw2 purchase. A) it doesn't cost a lot of money watch videos and decide for yourself C) if you don't like it, move on D) I feel like I just wasted my time.
/facepalm
Did you even read the OP? It's the exact opposite of what you think it is, it's asking those who DON'T like the game to explain their reasoning...
Originally posted by Badaboom I just dont understand a 21 page thread that basically wants you to justify your gw2 purchase. A) it doesn't cost a lot of money watch videos and decide for yourself C) if you don't like it, move on D) I feel like I just wasted my time.
/facepalm
Did you even read the OP? It's the exact opposite of what you think it is, it's asking those who DON'T like the game to explain their reasoning...
I wasn't referring to the poster. Talking about the whole thread. Just the impression that I'm getting from a bunch of the people posting.
Originally posted by Badaboom I wasn't referring to the poster. Talking about the whole thread. Just the impression that I'm getting from a bunch of the people posting.
All discussions have two sides to them. You could also say that the whole thread is asking people to justify why they don't buy GW2.
Questing, It feels like a new way of doing the old method, I didn't like it at all, just felt like a grind and box check ...it was soooooo boring
Can jump to highest level to PVP, i hate that
Cash shop(although I don't know much about it)
Loading screens between zones
I don't like the way the game maniupulates your level to correspond to the content
No open world PVP
Little to no character progression
I didn't care for the story and don't really like the lore
The price is rediculous, glad I played it on roommates account before purchasing
It felt like a crappy PVP E-sport with optional, kinda pointless PVE, and to be honest I enjoy PVE more.
PVP was bland and repetitive
The whole game seemed like one massive zerg
But what I hate most of all, this has taken me from disliking the game to down right hating it, are the fans. I have never seen such deluded people in all my life. On this site alone I have read posts claiming that GW2 is redefining MMOs, that it will sale upwards of 30 million copies, that all other MMOs will become void, that developers will start modeling their MMOs after GW2,that A-NET are the greatest developers ever. Every day I see the same crazy hype for a game that is, in my opinion, mediocre at best. These guys keep talking down to people "oh if you don't like GW2 you just don't like MMOs". It's very infuriating.
----Also, I bet I get someone who will quote this post and try to refute my own opinion.
Oh wait, I see what you did, you added 'crappy' and then some more hate prose against GW2 fans, so it's not a complete copy/paste. I knew I'd seen that list before. I think even less of it now since we've had BWE2.
Need more game types than conquest. Conquest is fun, but it also has the chance of not being fun if you are the unlucky person guarding a point for an entire game and noone comes to challenge you. I really want to see a CTF map implemented... hell they could just rip off WSG, shrink it a bit (since there are no mounts), and a few more places to LoS ranged and you'd have a fun map.
At this time, the game mechanics in sPVP lean more towards very specialized glass cannon builds (gimmick builds I call them). They basically are faceroll builds where you pop all your utilities at once and blow someone up, then you run away or die when everything is on cooldown. Its a very boring way to play, but it still seems a bit too effective in the game as of now. I'm sure they will balance this more before release.
Forest of Nif: the NPC bosses spawn too fast, are easily soloable, give too many points, give too great a buff (when you get both) and are easily ninja'd at the last millesecond. I think the buff should be removed from them, points per boss should be 25 at most, and ninjaing shouldn't be possible. Basically divvy up the 25 points based on the percentage of damage per team. If blue did 80% damage, they get 20 points, red did 20% they get 5 points.
Khylo: I just love this map... best conquest map I've played ever. So many interesting ways to get around things and LoS but not too many cheap LoS pole humping opportunities at the actual main points. Really great job here.
WvW: Love it so far, though it would be nice if there were some more world changing events happening like in the middle of a huge seige Zhaitan or something like him flys overhead and starts blasting both teams. Could add another level of unpredictability and chaos to the game.
PvE:
Much of the dialogue in the personal stories are pedantic, though there is so really good stuff in here too (Charr stuff is very entertaining). The main problem with the personal stories is their delievery system. I do agree that the painted backdrops and the animations of the characters while in story mode look fantastic, the problem is that in actual practice, it fails at delivering a well told story because:
1) The dialogue never overlaps, and there is a delay. We don't speak like that in real life and its quite jarring.
2) The characters never actually make eye contact with each other, they both look like their looking off in the distance at a queue card for their next line.
3) Having them stand around for that long without changing camera angles just feels awkward. Like watching a badly blocked high school play.
Added together this story delivery system is only a step up from reading quest text and is miles away from the believability/immersion of what SWTOR does (even if thats the only thing SWTOR got right). The end result is a very jarring and awkward delivery system that feels like an extremely bad blind date.
The thread has been veering off topic over the last page or two. Please stay on the thread topic and not general comments about the forums or comments about other posters. If you want to discuss the forum community, you can take that to Off Topic.
- Nearly same combat mechanics as other MMOs. Adding in dodge doesn't make it new. TERAs combat is far more innovative than GW2.
I am always surprised if people claim, that Teras combat system would be the best or innovative in any way. Well, you have to aim your target. Thats nothing new but fine and adds more complexity, which is always welcome. But you have to stand still in order to cast. How lame and archaic is that?
I dont say GW2s system is better after all. Both combat-systems are one-dimensional. Its fast paced action oriented combat for everyone. No matter if this style fits to a class / role or not. Innovation would be, introducing multiple combat styles in one game, or get rid of this damn dice rolling in the back since 20 years, or get rid of the HP bar ...
i am afraid my understanding of the term innovation is much different. I just saw smaller steps of evolution so far in both games.
Yes, both games are using small evolutionary steps, its just that Tera did more than GW2 in regard to combat. I honestly think that the GW2 devs were scared to do another few steps because of the risk. There is a lot more money invested in GW2 than in Tera.
As for standing still when attacking: That is needed to create tactical possibilities. Without that long ranged chars would rule supreme. You would have to introduce a lot of CC to counteract their mobility and noone wants a game where everyone can stun like crazy. The movement stop when attacking may feel weird in the beginning but you get used to it. You will soon see that positioning, timing and adaptability become far more important because of it. Its not about spell combos anymore or keeping your spells on cooldown, its about finding the correct time to attack safely. A rushing, skill spamming player will always lose to an experienced player.
Believe me, the standing still on attack is the better alternative. It makes combat far more dependend on player skill and thus fun to play and watch.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Originally posted by Inf666 - Nearly same combat mechanics as other MMOs. Adding in dodge doesn't make it new. TERAs combat is far more innovative than GW2.
I am always surprised if people claim, that Teras combat system would be the best or innovative in any way. Well, you have to aim your target. Thats nothing new but fine and adds more complexity, which is always welcome. But you have to stand still in order to cast. How lame and archaic is that?
I dont say GW2s system is better after all. Both combat-systems are one-dimensional. Its fast paced action oriented combat for everyone. No matter if this style fits to a class / role or not. Innovation would be, introducing multiple combat styles in one game, or get rid of this damn dice rolling in the back since 20 years, or get rid of the HP bar ...
i am afraid my understanding of the term innovation is much different. I just saw smaller steps of evolution so far in both games.
Significantly less lame than strafing around and spamming spells without consequence.
Originally posted by Scarlyng Fact is, no game is going to appeal to everyone. That includes GW2. No amount of attempting to change peoples' opinions in internet forums is going to work.
That's true, but a lot of the criticism towards GW2 occurs because people simply don't know what they are talking about (e.g. Thorbrand).
Secondly, some people seem to think it's fashionable to go against the hype even if said hype is based on facts and gameplay.
Finally, there is a lot of "Nirvana Fallacy" when it comes to GW2 (i.e. if it's not perfect then it's trash). For example, many people complain that Dynamic Events are not completely permanent or are similar in mechanics to regular quests yet completely ignore the fact that the delivery system and consequences for the events is still leaps and bounds better than the traditional quest-giver/quest-hub system.
It also seems like a lot of people complain because GW2 doesn't have sandbox elements, which it never claimed it would have.
Most complaints are valid and subject to a great deal of apologist activity.
Fact is, no game is going to appeal to everyone. That includes GW2. No amount of attempting to change peoples' opinions in internet forums is going to work.
That's true, but a lot of the criticism towards GW2 occurs because people simply don't know what they are talking about (e.g. Thorbrand).
Secondly, some people seem to think it's fashionable to go against the hype even if said hype is based on facts and gameplay.
Finally, there is a lot of "Nirvana Fallacy" when it comes to GW2 (i.e. if it's not perfect then it's trash). For example, many people complain that Dynamic Events are not completely permanent or are similar in mechanics to regular quests yet completely ignore the fact that the delivery system and consequences for the events is still leaps and bounds better than the traditional quest-giver/quest-hub system.
It also seems like a lot of people complain because GW2 doesn't have sandbox elements, which it never claimed it would have.
Most complaints are valid and subject to a great deal of apologist activity.
Most generalizations are sweeping statements that do not apply to every situaiton.
There are valid complaints about the game. If you're used to standard WoW combat and questing, it will be frustrating and difficult. Perfomance is still an issue from some people. There are noticeable bugs. And most damning of all, it IS a themepark. If you hate themeparks, you will ahte Gw2.
What's frustrating is the many people who come on here and say "I hate games that have every feature that GW2 is designed around, so Gw2 is a terrible game that will fail". Look, I don't like bananas. So you know what I don't do? I don't eat bananas. And if I do, I don't tell people that cook with them what crappy cooks they are. They could have made a masterpiece, it just happens to contain something in it I don't like.
There are also people who had false expectations. That GW2 was somehow going to transcend all MMOs and be 100% new features copmpletely never seen before with a completely different type of gameplay, and yes there will be free cookies. So, Oddly enough, when they found that it's STILL an MMO, and composed of features that make up an MMO, they don't care that those features are implemented so much better in this game then others. They immediately decry it as being garbage.
I've seen a lot of people come on here that are diehard UO/sandbox lovers. People that only play FPS games. People that flat out HATE features that have been announced as having been pat of this game since it was first mentioned YEARS ago. That are somehow surprised when Gw2 isn't a sandbox/FPS, or has features they don't like.
There are those that like teh game and have legitimate complaints about certain facets. There are those that don't like that game, and have legitimate complaints about certain features. And there are those that hate the game, never had any intention of liking it,and come here just to bitch about how crappy it is. I will, however, admit that there's a LOT of rabid GW2 fans that irritate even me, a fan of the game, by raging against and generally being douchnozzles to anyone that says anything even remotely critical about the game. Wish they'd shut up.
TL;DR both camps are filled with both good people and idiots.
Comments
What you're describing is essentially the difference between a singleplayer and a multiplayer game. A single player game can make you a hero, by essentially handing you power and saying 'you are now supposed to do this with your power'. A multiplayer game cannot do this. It always comes down to the fact that you are playing with other people, and if they make everyone super powerful, then no one really is. That's one of the tradeoffs of choosing a multiplayer game over a singleplayer game. You loose inherent individuality in favor of larger-scale, more social gameplay. If you want more individuality in a multiplayer game, you usually have to earn it yourself, unlike in a single player game.
And you're right about not knowing the state of things when you go back to them. However, that's got nothing to do with the longevity. If you are in a more populated area, you can be reasonably sure that someone will pick up the slack when you're gone. Once you start venturing out into sparcer and sparcer areas, that becomes much more questionable. Hell, even in just one of the 15-25 areas I was coming across events that I was not only struggling to succeed, but that I knew I couldn't keep safe. So I had to evactuate. That event, as far as I know, stayed failed the entire weekend, except for 1 time that I momentary succeeded in repairing the bridge.
It may seem like an endless loop to you, but it would still seem that way even if the pacing was slowed WAAY down to months at a time. The only difference would be that there would be less and less at stake in each area. It would basically come down to 'okay, lets rush to succeed all these events and then take a breather for a month'. There would be no sense of urgency. Once something happened, you'd know it would stay that way, regardless of what anyone did, for a certain amount of time. That takes away from the chaotic nature of the game, and kind of defeats the entire point of having a living-breathing world.
This is total utter bullshit.Just because he likes to play traditional MMORPG's with more than one hotbar with 30-60 abilities on it dosn't mean he is some way stuck in a timewarp.If you prefer rolling around 'action combat' with 4 buttons to click then go ahead enjoy it.In EQ2 I have many alts and not a single one of them presses 5-10 attacks/abilities only,not even at level 12 lol.
Long live the so called 'trinity'!
I have specific objections that i predicted that will keep gw2 success in the lvls of gw1 and maybe a little better.
1.Should be instance free. there should be a realistic like world without screen loading zones every once in a while.Also the when u r in a city that stupid harbor 1-10 when u r with friends in the same spot and cant see them cause u rin harbr1 and your friends are in harbor 4 its completely ridicullus and cuts from a solid gameworld.Also free pvp should be there. Even wow which is considered the ultimate themepark ts a free world where whover wants can pvp everywhere.For gun? Sure just for fun but u have that option.
2.Absence of Character continual develepoment-improvement like say for ever or at least throught lots lots pf content even in slow rythm is a huge minor for the game.Once u hit the level cap,its over. All u can get is aesthetic gear. Thats the biggest issue for any role playing gamers that respect themselfs and the role playing game's standards and values. The Gw2 fans for some wierd reason they keep saying aesthetic rewards offers to players. Sure. As much as the various epiq mounts offers to wow.Nothing. And since there is no improvement in toons after cap many players will quit after a period since there is nothing with meaning (keeep improving stats with talents feats,skill points,gear) its like u play cod or something.it will be fun but after a point u realise there is no point.
3.I watched some videos with a large number of players in the screen and honestly? From all those uber duper super shiny effects ,i couldnt tell what the heck was going on who was attacking whom,close or ranged it was just a mess like some korean mmos we see in tube from videos where all u can see is effects and cant see the enemies. I just hope there will be options to enable/disable the effects or at least minimize them so they wont be annoying in big fights.
Other than that the rest elements are good from what i see and read,combat is working good its new n fresh,pvp will be good,the random events in the wilds seem to work,leveling could be fun,pvp tournaments will be fun.
1. Really. Combat the same as other MMOs? Since you reference Tera as far more innovative, I assume you are basing this statement solely on GW2 having tab target lock. Because Tera's actual skill usage in combat is, if anything, more similar to wow than any of teh other big name titles coming out this generation. Every fight is 1 2 3, 1 2 3, dodge, 1 2 3. I never felt as though I could just repeat a rotation on cooldown in GW2. I had to constantly change my tactcs to meet what was going on.
2. You're right in that DEs are a different packaging for a quest. However, they are not one outcome. Often times, completing a DE spawns a new DE...and failing the first one spawns a different second one.
3. I chalk this one up to matter of opinion. I'll admit the trait system and lack of mult-classing limit it in some ways, and in others focus is better. It's really up to you.
4. Never saw anything for mouselook, didn't bother me to be honest.
5. What would you LIKE to see in crafting? I'll admit your points are valid, but I'd like to hear what you'd want different.
6. Please define what you mean by "long term progression mechanic" What would you like to see?
7. Easy? Can I guess that you did a couple of the starter DEs around Queensdale and never touched the game again? Cause it's anything but easy.
As to the innovation complaint...it does the same thing other games have, but better, and in slightly different ways. At the end of the day did I play it and have fun? Yup. That's good enough for me.
The "innovation complaint" is rather easy to explain. It's like comparing a Ferrari with an 1000$ car. They are both cars but similarities end there. Same with DEs and PQs/Rifts they both offer party-less play and their similarities end there.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
So you do a claim which is not trivial at all and can even considered to be inflammatory, but you are unwilling to provide links to sources that back up your claim?
I'll requote you:
-Person 1: Oh come on, we want something new and different than same old [insert old-school MMORPG name here] clone!!!!
-Person 1: Oh, come on, but it is new and different , we just wanted same old [insert old-school MMORPG name here] clone!!!! That game is not true MMORPG
and then ask you for examples supporting your portrayal of person 1.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Not trivial? inflammatory? To whom? If i offended you in anyway, i do apologize. However i didnt mentioned anyone particular, i just made an algorythm of many (or i may be driven to conclude that it is) attitude towards one game, Guild Wars 2 in this case. I surely didnt point a finger to anyone, or talked tongue-in-cheek. Be it person 1 or 2 or 5 or 10. Like i said, honor to those who are different
As i said before, you wont see me quoting anyone here. Never, ever. If the price is you, thinking that i drop lies all around, let it be. I got my own principles and i wont cross them, what ever consequences that may be. On the other hand, if you have that much spare time, you can browse this very subforum and see for yourself
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
I am always surprised if people claim, that Teras combat system would be the best or innovative in any way. Well, you have to aim your target. Thats nothing new but fine and adds more complexity, which is always welcome. But you have to stand still in order to cast. How lame and archaic is that?
I dont say GW2s system is better after all. Both combat-systems are one-dimensional. Its fast paced action oriented combat for everyone. No matter if this style fits to a class / role or not. Innovation would be, introducing multiple combat styles in one game, or get rid of this damn dice rolling in the back since 20 years, or get rid of the HP bar ...
i am afraid my understanding of the term innovation is much different. I just saw smaller steps of evolution so far in both games.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
So far, he's been this threads only honest complainant. He doesn't like the art. He honestly admits that it's a personal preference. I know where he's coming from. No matter how many times I try to play WoW. No matter the race, I get there by Level 10. It's just too ugly, to me, to play. Others love it. I'm happy for them. The rest of the complainants... I just laugh. Some of them would destroy the reachable market with unrealistic, computor crushing demands. Not every MMO player has a top-end system, and what they ask for would require a top-end, not elite, but still top-end system. The worst, IMO, are the ones hiding behind lazy, vague cliche' complaints while screaming for innovation without making specific complaints or pointing these 'obvious' innovations that should be in the game.
Im pretty sure my opinions on the matter were honest
So far. Which was to a post on page 1. And I don't consider a complaint that is based on personal opinion presented as 'fact' to be honest. You may not like the PvE combat system. It's a personal opinion. Saying it's 'trash' as if that were an unassailable fact instead of personal opinion is dishonest as you assign a false-certainty to your feelings about the matter. De gustibus non est disputandum. In taste there is no dispute. Yet, in taste, there is also no honesty or truth. It is purely subjective. What is a masterpiece for one man is another's disaster. How Picasso got money for all those paintings is beyond me... I hate them all... I do not assert Picasso was a hack and spam Picasso forums about how much he sucked and he'd have been good if he were Van Gogh. I recognize his paintings were not for me. I recognize many people believe him to be a great artist. I do not trash his works on matters of personal taste. And yet I read the complaints. And, for the most part, they are not technical, measurable complaints. They are complaints of taste disguised as 'unassailable fact' which is then used to blugeon, mock and put-down others who disagree based on their taste in games without even the slightest self-awareness on the behalf of the complaintant.
Top notch post, and pretty much sums up everything i've read too. Big +1 to MosesZD.
Hmm. Well the title of this thread is called "Explain Your Opinion" so coming in here and dismissing all these posts because they arent based on fact is kind of silly. And my opinions had nothing to do with combat btw.
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Fact is, no game is going to appeal to everyone. That includes GW2. No amount of attempting to change peoples' opinions in internet forums is going to work.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
this it true. Was this thread just an open invitation to bash people over a difference of opinion on a game?
I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.
Same kind of ice cream just in a different flavor. Been there done that. Next...
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
That's true, but a lot of the criticism towards GW2 occurs because people simply don't know what they are talking about (e.g. Thorbrand).
Secondly, some people seem to think it's fashionable to go against the hype even if said hype is based on facts and gameplay.
Finally, there is a lot of "Nirvana Fallacy" when it comes to GW2 (i.e. if it's not perfect then it's trash). For example, many people complain that Dynamic Events are not completely permanent or are similar in mechanics to regular quests yet completely ignore the fact that the delivery system and consequences for the events is still leaps and bounds better than the traditional quest-giver/quest-hub system.
It also seems like a lot of people complain because GW2 doesn't have sandbox elements, which it never claimed it would have.
A) it doesn't cost a lot of money
C) if you don't like it, move on
D) I feel like I just wasted my time.
/facepalm
Did you even read the OP? It's the exact opposite of what you think it is, it's asking those who DON'T like the game to explain their reasoning...
/facepalm
Did you even read the OP? It's the exact opposite of what you think it is, it's asking those who DON'T like the game to explain their reasoning...
I wasn't referring to the poster. Talking about the whole thread. Just the impression that I'm getting from a bunch of the people posting.All discussions have two sides to them. You could also say that the whole thread is asking people to justify why they don't buy GW2.
Why didn't you just post a link to http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5005715#5005715
Oh wait, I see what you did, you added 'crappy' and then some more hate prose against GW2 fans, so it's not a complete copy/paste. I knew I'd seen that list before. I think even less of it now since we've had BWE2.
My few complaints about GW2:
PvP:
Need more game types than conquest. Conquest is fun, but it also has the chance of not being fun if you are the unlucky person guarding a point for an entire game and noone comes to challenge you. I really want to see a CTF map implemented... hell they could just rip off WSG, shrink it a bit (since there are no mounts), and a few more places to LoS ranged and you'd have a fun map.
At this time, the game mechanics in sPVP lean more towards very specialized glass cannon builds (gimmick builds I call them). They basically are faceroll builds where you pop all your utilities at once and blow someone up, then you run away or die when everything is on cooldown. Its a very boring way to play, but it still seems a bit too effective in the game as of now. I'm sure they will balance this more before release.
Forest of Nif: the NPC bosses spawn too fast, are easily soloable, give too many points, give too great a buff (when you get both) and are easily ninja'd at the last millesecond. I think the buff should be removed from them, points per boss should be 25 at most, and ninjaing shouldn't be possible. Basically divvy up the 25 points based on the percentage of damage per team. If blue did 80% damage, they get 20 points, red did 20% they get 5 points.
Khylo: I just love this map... best conquest map I've played ever. So many interesting ways to get around things and LoS but not too many cheap LoS pole humping opportunities at the actual main points. Really great job here.
WvW: Love it so far, though it would be nice if there were some more world changing events happening like in the middle of a huge seige Zhaitan or something like him flys overhead and starts blasting both teams. Could add another level of unpredictability and chaos to the game.
PvE:
Much of the dialogue in the personal stories are pedantic, though there is so really good stuff in here too (Charr stuff is very entertaining). The main problem with the personal stories is their delievery system. I do agree that the painted backdrops and the animations of the characters while in story mode look fantastic, the problem is that in actual practice, it fails at delivering a well told story because:
1) The dialogue never overlaps, and there is a delay. We don't speak like that in real life and its quite jarring.
2) The characters never actually make eye contact with each other, they both look like their looking off in the distance at a queue card for their next line.
3) Having them stand around for that long without changing camera angles just feels awkward. Like watching a badly blocked high school play.
Added together this story delivery system is only a step up from reading quest text and is miles away from the believability/immersion of what SWTOR does (even if thats the only thing SWTOR got right). The end result is a very jarring and awkward delivery system that feels like an extremely bad blind date.
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Yes, both games are using small evolutionary steps, its just that Tera did more than GW2 in regard to combat. I honestly think that the GW2 devs were scared to do another few steps because of the risk. There is a lot more money invested in GW2 than in Tera.
As for standing still when attacking: That is needed to create tactical possibilities. Without that long ranged chars would rule supreme. You would have to introduce a lot of CC to counteract their mobility and noone wants a game where everyone can stun like crazy. The movement stop when attacking may feel weird in the beginning but you get used to it. You will soon see that positioning, timing and adaptability become far more important because of it. Its not about spell combos anymore or keeping your spells on cooldown, its about finding the correct time to attack safely. A rushing, skill spamming player will always lose to an experienced player.
Believe me, the standing still on attack is the better alternative. It makes combat far more dependend on player skill and thus fun to play and watch.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I am always surprised if people claim, that Teras combat system would be the best or innovative in any way. Well, you have to aim your target. Thats nothing new but fine and adds more complexity, which is always welcome. But you have to stand still in order to cast. How lame and archaic is that?
I dont say GW2s system is better after all. Both combat-systems are one-dimensional. Its fast paced action oriented combat for everyone. No matter if this style fits to a class / role or not. Innovation would be, introducing multiple combat styles in one game, or get rid of this damn dice rolling in the back since 20 years, or get rid of the HP bar ...
i am afraid my understanding of the term innovation is much different. I just saw smaller steps of evolution so far in both games.
Significantly less lame than strafing around and spamming spells without consequence.That's true, but a lot of the criticism towards GW2 occurs because people simply don't know what they are talking about (e.g. Thorbrand).
Secondly, some people seem to think it's fashionable to go against the hype even if said hype is based on facts and gameplay.
Finally, there is a lot of "Nirvana Fallacy" when it comes to GW2 (i.e. if it's not perfect then it's trash). For example, many people complain that Dynamic Events are not completely permanent or are similar in mechanics to regular quests yet completely ignore the fact that the delivery system and consequences for the events is still leaps and bounds better than the traditional quest-giver/quest-hub system.
It also seems like a lot of people complain because GW2 doesn't have sandbox elements, which it never claimed it would have.
Most complaints are valid and subject to a great deal of apologist activity.Most generalizations are sweeping statements that do not apply to every situaiton.
There are valid complaints about the game. If you're used to standard WoW combat and questing, it will be frustrating and difficult. Perfomance is still an issue from some people. There are noticeable bugs. And most damning of all, it IS a themepark. If you hate themeparks, you will ahte Gw2.
What's frustrating is the many people who come on here and say "I hate games that have every feature that GW2 is designed around, so Gw2 is a terrible game that will fail". Look, I don't like bananas. So you know what I don't do? I don't eat bananas. And if I do, I don't tell people that cook with them what crappy cooks they are. They could have made a masterpiece, it just happens to contain something in it I don't like.
There are also people who had false expectations. That GW2 was somehow going to transcend all MMOs and be 100% new features copmpletely never seen before with a completely different type of gameplay, and yes there will be free cookies. So, Oddly enough, when they found that it's STILL an MMO, and composed of features that make up an MMO, they don't care that those features are implemented so much better in this game then others. They immediately decry it as being garbage.
I've seen a lot of people come on here that are diehard UO/sandbox lovers. People that only play FPS games. People that flat out HATE features that have been announced as having been pat of this game since it was first mentioned YEARS ago. That are somehow surprised when Gw2 isn't a sandbox/FPS, or has features they don't like.
There are those that like teh game and have legitimate complaints about certain facets. There are those that don't like that game, and have legitimate complaints about certain features. And there are those that hate the game, never had any intention of liking it,and come here just to bitch about how crappy it is. I will, however, admit that there's a LOT of rabid GW2 fans that irritate even me, a fan of the game, by raging against and generally being douchnozzles to anyone that says anything even remotely critical about the game. Wish they'd shut up.
TL;DR both camps are filled with both good people and idiots.