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The Elder Scrolls Online and Zenimax's approach is pretty bad

andrewwkandrewwk hallandale beach, FLPosts: 6Member

 

As someone who considers Dark Age of Camelot to be on of his most memorable games ever played, I very much dislike the direction this MMO is going while under the helm of Matt Firor. I am not a big Elder Scrolls fan and have not played a single game within that franchise but cannot help but feel that this game seems to stray off the gameplay of the original series quite a bit.

 

What interests me the most about this game is the 3 faction PvP. Matt Firor is a very familiar name when one thinks of Dark Age of Camelot. There are a few 3 faction PvP MMOs coming out such as : GW 2, Dominus, TESO, and possibly a couple more I cannot name. I understand that Matt Firor being from Dark Age of Camelot and being a huge creative force in that game has a sort of right by creation to implement 3 faction PvP in his project but cannot help but feel that in a few ways Zenimax is stepping on the toes of ArenaNet by utilizing some of the facets of Guild Wars 2 that stand out and make it a great game.

 

Zenimax is not only utilizing 3 faction PvP but also seem to be adopting the skill bar setup that GW 2 is using : http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/this-week-in-mmo-show/twimmoguild-wars-2-clone/

 

On top of this, they are also promoting this game as being an MMO that breaks away from tank and spank / 1 key spam and promotes 'action combat' similar to TERA and GW2. Paul Sage even goes on to promote the game as one that lets you 'play the way you want' in regards to exploring, questing, etc. in this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1R5R_9Huac

 

This hotbar layout would have a similar minimalist layout to that seen in GW 2. All classes will be able to block similarly to how all classes in GW 2 can dodge roll. They of course did mention two other abilities crouch (stealth for all classes, wtf? Lol) and sprint (run faster, from DAoC/WAR) I forgot to mention that they (TESO) also mentioned that there are cross class combinations that can be performed in the game again similar to GW 2. Even the art execution for the world and surrounding environments are a bit similar to those found in GW2.

 

I am not ignorant to believe that no company in this industry would 'take' and implement any game/companies ideas into their own game to make it better. For example, I recently was watching some TERA online video footage of the PvP and noticed that whenever someone registers a critical blow it displays a small gash of blood on the screen where the combat scrolling text is. I saw this same feature in the most recent BWE 2 event for GW 2.

 

Of course, there may be many more similarities found between GW 2 and other games but that is not the point. The point is that Zenimax just seems to be taking an easy route to promoting their game as being one similar to the next big MMO in GW 2 but their's (Zenimax - TESO) is a fan familiar IP in The Elder Scrolls franchise. If you watch the video above or any other footage from E3 you should get a sense of this as well. I could have sworn that some journalist in an article questioned a developer from TESO about it being similar to GW 2 and he responded by claiming that some of the ideas shared with GW 2 was implemented prior to Guild Wars 2 being in development which is just utter BS.

 

I was gonna go on in this section how they (Zenimax) did not display any footage to the public (at E3 2012) of the game considering it is going to be out in 2013 yet are puzzled as to why it got a mixed reception BUT it kinda makes sense doesn't it? If they showed footage of their game revealing the similarities to GW 2, wouldn't that cause a bit of an uproar? GW 2 is expected to launch this year and TESO is slated to launch by April-May 2013.

All said, I do hope for the best for TESO. I do feel that some of their implementations are what is needed for the next generation of MMOs. Still, I can't help but feel that they are slighting ArenaNet and GW 2 in various ways. Guess I am a GW 2 fanboi but I do not see passion from the game devs at Zenimax.

Comments

  • MadnessRealmMadnessRealm Montreal, QCPosts: 2,716Member Uncommon

    I wouldn't quite say the game is similar to GW2. Regarding the "play the way you want" is typical of the TES serie to begin with. As for the skills themselves and how they are used, one of the developers mentionned that for exemple if a Mage used a Fire Tornado and a melee party member ran into that tornado and used some whirlwind attack, it would shoot fireballs everywhere. I can't remember from which website that interview is from however (might be GT but not sure).

     

    Still, TESO will quite possibly fail. Why? Because they're using the TES brand without delivering a TES-like experience.

    ------
    Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  • andrewwkandrewwk hallandale beach, FLPosts: 6Member
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm

    I wouldn't quite say the game is similar to GW2. Regarding the "play the way you want" is typical of the TES serie to begin with. As for the skills themselves and how they are used, one of the developers mentionned that for exemple if a Mage used a Fire Tornado and a melee party member ran into that tornado and used some whirlwind attack, it would shoot fireballs everywhere. I can't remember from which website that interview is from however (might be GT but not sure).

     

    Still, TESO will quite possibly fail. Why? Because they're using the TES brand without delivering a TES-like experience.

    The part with skills and how they can be used as cross class combinations speaks for itself pretty much... GW 2 also has this feature.

     

    I agree with your final statement, it seems there is backlash from the TES community that wanted it to be similar to the games that helped make the franchise.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/06/15/zenimax-the-elder-scrolls-onlines-real-time-combat-is-all-pre/

     

    "Like our whole real-time combat system of blocking and dodging is all pretty much new," Firor explains.

     

    TAB target lock and hotbar activated abilities called Block and Dodge =/= "Real Time Combat"

     

    "Making an MMO is making an MMO. I worked in the industry before World of Warcraft, so I can tell you that World of Warcraft had a lot of influences from a lot of games. Our priority is to make a great game and not to make a clone of anything," Firor says.

     

    Nice of you to pigeon-hole how making an MMO should be and its great that youre letting us know how you we making MMOs pre-WoW. Yes WoW and many games have borrowed and/or copied from others (DAOC=EQlite), but.....Fantasy MMO, Levels, Classes, TAB target, 3 Locked Factions, 3 Faction specific Zones, 3-way PvP in 1 dedicated PvP Zone...sounds like youre cloning Dark Age of Camelot there. Ill bet you are even thinking of making the Falmer into Spraggon2.0

     

     

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • andrewwkandrewwk hallandale beach, FLPosts: 6Member
    Originally posted by PyrateLV

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/06/15/zenimax-the-elder-scrolls-onlines-real-time-combat-is-all-pre/

     

    "Like our whole real-time combat system of blocking and dodging is all pretty much new," Firor explains.

     

    TAB target lock and hotbar activated abilities called Block and Dodge =/= "Real Time Combat"

     

    "Making an MMO is making an MMO. I worked in the industry before World of Warcraft, so I can tell you that World of Warcraft had a lot of influences from a lot of games. Our priority is to make a great game and not to make a clone of anything," Firor says.

     

    Nice of you to pigeon-hole how making an MMO should be and its great that youre letting us know how you we making MMOs pre-WoW. Yes WoW and many games have borrowed and/or copied from others (DAOC=EQlite), but.....Fantasy MMO, Levels, Classes, TAB target, 3 Locked Factions, 3 Faction specific Zones, 3-way PvP in 1 dedicated PvP Zone...sounds like youre cloning Dark Age of Camelot there. Ill bet you are even thinking of making the Falmer into Spraggon2.0

     

     

      Such a great post. Lol @ Spraggon 2.0. Thank you for your addition

  • GreenishBlueGreenishBlue Baltimore, MDPosts: 263Member

     I am tired of the lazyness of MMO devs that can't provide at least a decent character creation or variety in magic spells in this time and age; devs want to cater to everyone and that's the problem; I would prefer if the devs releases an MMO with just PvE and quality content; once that's squared away, then add battlegrounds/open world PvP in patches/expansions; but these days is like they want to provide everything and it turns out a mediocre MMO at all levels.

    image
  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon

    I'm pretty impressed with this assessment, especially considering you've never played a TES game (something you should likely correct, if only just to know how great they are).

    Well said.

  • chefdiablochefdiablo Barrie, ONPosts: 202Member

    I understand that this game does not interest some people, but these threads are just the same thing over and over.

    Game X is not innovative due to reasons; blah, blah, blah.

    It is not going to change. You are going to be disappointed, why not move on already?

    Or are you going to be the nay sayers now, join the beta testing and complain further, buy the game and play it for two weeks and then tell us how you want a refund?

    Holy cow, it might the M.O. of trolls.

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by chefdiablo

    I understand that this game does not interest some people, but these threads are just the same thing over and over.

    Game X is not innovative due to reasons; blah, blah, blah.

    It is not going to change. You are going to be disappointed, why not move on already?

    Or are you going to be the nay sayers now, join the beta testing and complain further, buy the game and play it for two weeks and then tell us how you want a refund?

    Holy cow, it might the M.O. of trolls.

    It's not about not being interested.  The people who are complaining generally ARE interested, but they are interested in an Elder Scrolls MMO that lives up to the single-player experiences in many ways, and isn't a giant leap backwards for the franchise.

    I could care less about other MMOs whether they innovate or not, but ESO was something I'd been looking forward to for over 10 years, imagining the possibilities of an MMO with TES mechanics (something we already know is perfectly possible thanks to Darkfall and Mortal Online).

    You bet your ass I'll be in the beta, it is the one franchise I legitimately care about and I had high hopes for its eventual MMO.  I sure as hell won't buy the game unless they make significant changes however.

  • andrewwkandrewwk hallandale beach, FLPosts: 6Member
    Originally posted by Entinerint

    I'm pretty impressed with this assessment, especially considering you've never played a TES game (something you should likely correct, if only just to know how great they are).

    Well said.

    Fair enough.

  • andrewwkandrewwk hallandale beach, FLPosts: 6Member
    Originally posted by chefdiablo

    I understand that this game does not interest some people, but these threads are just the same thing over and over.

    Game X is not innovative due to reasons; blah, blah, blah.

    It is not going to change. You are going to be disappointed, why not move on already?

    Or are you going to be the nay sayers now, join the beta testing and complain further, buy the game and play it for two weeks and then tell us how you want a refund?

    Holy cow, it might the M.O. of trolls.

     

    The game does interest me because of Matt Firor's involvement (3 faction PvP) and a chance to get to know the lore behind TES. I just do not like their approach thus far. It is pretty crappy.

     

    I think ArcheAge is an MMO that will have some decent success and will be there hanging with other MMOs. I don't go and troll them or their fan sites. I actually think quite a few of the features in their game are impressive and innovative. If the game didn't seem like a grind and had some differential to it's PvE/PvP, I would give it a try. Otherwise, it is for sandboxer MMO fans I suppose.

    Would I try TESO in the (presumable) state it is now? Sure, but I don't think I would buy the game up front let alone pay a sub fee for it. I am actually quite impressionable from viewing game footage. I could tell when a game is gonna flop or not by the game footage. Does it upset me that TESO didn't release footage? Nope, I know it will come out eventually but I just find it strange that they didn't. I think someone at E3 made an analogy between EQ2 pulling off the same shtick and TESO. We'll see how that plays out for them (Zenimax) in the long run.

    I know how it feels to have trolls or punks come into a game a bash it while you are playing or cry about the smallest imperfection on the game's beta forums. I have seen less than a handful of them (thankfully) with the GW 2 BWE experiences. 

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon

    MMO devs love stealing stuff from eachother.§

    In fact about 98% of the MMOs are copies based on Meridian 59s original mechanics which were improved first by EQ and then by Wow.

    That ESO will steal from DaoC, Wow and GW2 makes a lot of sense. I wish they put more time developing their own ideas but I am not the least surprise.

    To actually use TES as a base to create a MMO mechanics that work would take a lot more work and talent then to copy and paste what others already have done, and sadly does almost all MMO devs think like that.

  • chefdiablochefdiablo Barrie, ONPosts: 202Member


    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by chefdiablo I understand that this game does not interest some people, but these threads are just the same thing over and over. Game X is not innovative due to reasons; blah, blah, blah. It is not going to change. You are going to be disappointed, why not move on already? Or are you going to be the nay sayers now, join the beta testing and complain further, buy the game and play it for two weeks and then tell us how you want a refund? Holy cow, it might the M.O. of trolls.
    It's not about not being interested.  The people who are complaining generally ARE interested, but they are interested in an Elder Scrolls MMO that lives up to the single-player experiences in many ways, and isn't a giant leap backwards for the franchise.

    I could care less about other MMOs whether they innovate or not, but ESO was something I'd been looking forward to for over 10 years, imagining the possibilities of an MMO with TES mechanics (something we already know is perfectly possible thanks to Darkfall and Mortal Online).

    You bet your ass I'll be in the beta, it is the one franchise I legitimately care about and I had high hopes for its eventual MMO.  I sure as hell won't buy the game unless they make significant changes however.


    It is true. This game is not going to be what you imagined for all that time. It is not going to be what I imagined it would be either and many others will feel the same way.

    My point is there is no amount of complaining about it that will lead to change. Some aspects will be altered prior to release, but most of the foundation that people are upset about will remain. They can type endlessly on these forums attempting to build an anit-TESO army but it will change nothing.

    I realize that this game is not going to be what I expected and will decide at the time of release whether I will play it or not. I will not create a new thread, or post in every other TESO disappoints thread trying to rally the troops to my cause.

    If the game is not my taste I just don't buy or play it. That is the most effective way to give your opinion.

    Bloating out the beta servers just to get a taste can give the developers false hope they are doing the right thing unless you actually are giving honest and realistice feedback, but most "testers" are truely not qualified to do so. They just think they are.

  • andrewwkandrewwk hallandale beach, FLPosts: 6Member
    Originally posted by Loke666

    MMO devs love stealing stuff from eachother.§

    In fact about 98% of the MMOs are copies based on Meridian 59s original mechanics which were improved first by EQ and then by Wow.

    That ESO will steal from DaoC, Wow and GW2 makes a lot of sense. I wish they put more time developing their own ideas but I am not the least surprise.

    To actually use TES as a base to create a MMO mechanics that work would take a lot more work and talent then to copy and paste what others already have done, and sadly does almost all MMO devs think like that.

     

    Great post. 

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by chefdiablo

     


    Originally posted by Entinerint

    Originally posted by chefdiablo I understand that this game does not interest some people, but these threads are just the same thing over and over. Game X is not innovative due to reasons; blah, blah, blah. It is not going to change. You are going to be disappointed, why not move on already? Or are you going to be the nay sayers now, join the beta testing and complain further, buy the game and play it for two weeks and then tell us how you want a refund? Holy cow, it might the M.O. of trolls.
    It's not about not being interested.  The people who are complaining generally ARE interested, but they are interested in an Elder Scrolls MMO that lives up to the single-player experiences in many ways, and isn't a giant leap backwards for the franchise.

     

    I could care less about other MMOs whether they innovate or not, but ESO was something I'd been looking forward to for over 10 years, imagining the possibilities of an MMO with TES mechanics (something we already know is perfectly possible thanks to Darkfall and Mortal Online).

    You bet your ass I'll be in the beta, it is the one franchise I legitimately care about and I had high hopes for its eventual MMO.  I sure as hell won't buy the game unless they make significant changes however.


     

    It is true. This game is not going to be what you imagined for all that time. It is not going to be what I imagined it would be either and many others will feel the same way.

    My point is there is no amount of complaining about it that will lead to change. Some aspects will be altered prior to release, but most of the foundation that people are upset about will remain. They can type endlessly on these forums attempting to build an anit-TESO army but it will change nothing.

    I realize that this game is not going to be what I expected and will decide at the time of release whether I will play it or not. I will not create a new thread, or post in every other TESO disappoints thread trying to rally the troops to my cause.

    If the game is not my taste I just don't buy or play it. That is the most effective way to give your opinion.

    Bloating out the beta servers just to get a taste can give the developers false hope they are doing the right thing unless you actually are giving honest and realistice feedback, but most "testers" are truely not qualified to do so. They just think they are.

    I think its perfectly reasonable to expect hardcore TES fans to spend a daily effort complaining about it unless they had something better to do.

    If Star Trek was going to come out with a new release and it involved a ship complement of babbons its reasonable to expect that a few Star Trek fans would make it a daily mission to say something about it even though they know it cant change.

     

    Agree?

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • iceman00iceman00 Westland, MIPosts: 1,363Member
    Originally posted by Entinerint
    Originally posted by chefdiablo

    I understand that this game does not interest some people, but these threads are just the same thing over and over.

    Game X is not innovative due to reasons; blah, blah, blah.

    It is not going to change. You are going to be disappointed, why not move on already?

    Or are you going to be the nay sayers now, join the beta testing and complain further, buy the game and play it for two weeks and then tell us how you want a refund?

    Holy cow, it might the M.O. of trolls.

    It's not about not being interested.  The people who are complaining generally ARE interested, but they are interested in an Elder Scrolls MMO that lives up to the single-player experiences in many ways, and isn't a giant leap backwards for the franchise.

    I could care less about other MMOs whether they innovate or not, but ESO was something I'd been looking forward to for over 10 years, imagining the possibilities of an MMO with TES mechanics (something we already know is perfectly possible thanks to Darkfall and Mortal Online).

    You bet your ass I'll be in the beta, it is the one franchise I legitimately care about and I had high hopes for its eventual MMO.  I sure as hell won't buy the game unless they make significant changes however.

    Besides, a lot of us realize something:  Even if two different companies are behind it, if TESO fails, that is going to impact the single player franchise.  Yet if Zenimax Online goes down this path, fail it will.

  • RyowulfRyowulf Greensburg, PAPosts: 668Member

    I think that is what many are worried about. The mmo could be good or bad and no one would care, but if by doing bad it means they don't make another single player or its delayed than yeah people start to care.

  • UhwopUhwop Wilm, DEPosts: 1,663Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by chefdiablo

     


    Originally posted by Entinerint

    Originally posted by chefdiablo I understand that this game does not interest some people, but these threads are just the same thing over and over. Game X is not innovative due to reasons; blah, blah, blah. It is not going to change. You are going to be disappointed, why not move on already? Or are you going to be the nay sayers now, join the beta testing and complain further, buy the game and play it for two weeks and then tell us how you want a refund? Holy cow, it might the M.O. of trolls.
    It's not about not being interested.  The people who are complaining generally ARE interested, but they are interested in an Elder Scrolls MMO that lives up to the single-player experiences in many ways, and isn't a giant leap backwards for the franchise.

     

    I could care less about other MMOs whether they innovate or not, but ESO was something I'd been looking forward to for over 10 years, imagining the possibilities of an MMO with TES mechanics (something we already know is perfectly possible thanks to Darkfall and Mortal Online).

    You bet your ass I'll be in the beta, it is the one franchise I legitimately care about and I had high hopes for its eventual MMO.  I sure as hell won't buy the game unless they make significant changes however.


     

    It is true. This game is not going to be what you imagined for all that time. It is not going to be what I imagined it would be either and many others will feel the same way.

    My point is there is no amount of complaining about it that will lead to change. Some aspects will be altered prior to release, but most of the foundation that people are upset about will remain. They can type endlessly on these forums attempting to build an anit-TESO army but it will change nothing.

    I realize that this game is not going to be what I expected and will decide at the time of release whether I will play it or not. I will not create a new thread, or post in every other TESO disappoints thread trying to rally the troops to my cause.

    If the game is not my taste I just don't buy or play it. That is the most effective way to give your opinion.

    Bloating out the beta servers just to get a taste can give the developers false hope they are doing the right thing unless you actually are giving honest and realistice feedback, but most "testers" are truely not qualified to do so. They just think they are.

     Once this game releases, what are the chances that us ES fans are ever going to get the "ES MMO we have always wanted"? 

    My guess is zero to none.  Game does well, they aren't going to make another one.  Game does poorly, they aren't going to make another one.  They have one chance to make "the ES mmo the fans have always wanted", not two, not three, one.

    A new RvR MMO by Matt firor is fine, but an ES MMO that is nothing like any ES game means that ES fans will NEVER get the mmo they've been waiting for.  It's even more insulting for them to announce the game as the ES MMO that ES fans have always wanted. 

    What ES fan was posting on the Beth forums that they wanted an ES mmo, but how great would it be if it was a themepark, with quest grinding like WoW, GW style combat, and DAoC RvR? 

     

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Uhwop
    Originally posted by chefdiablo

     


    Originally posted by Entinerint

    Originally posted by chefdiablo I understand that this game does not interest some people, but these threads are just the same thing over and over. Game X is not innovative due to reasons; blah, blah, blah. It is not going to change. You are going to be disappointed, why not move on already? Or are you going to be the nay sayers now, join the beta testing and complain further, buy the game and play it for two weeks and then tell us how you want a refund? Holy cow, it might the M.O. of trolls.
    It's not about not being interested.  The people who are complaining generally ARE interested, but they are interested in an Elder Scrolls MMO that lives up to the single-player experiences in many ways, and isn't a giant leap backwards for the franchise.

     

    I could care less about other MMOs whether they innovate or not, but ESO was something I'd been looking forward to for over 10 years, imagining the possibilities of an MMO with TES mechanics (something we already know is perfectly possible thanks to Darkfall and Mortal Online).

    You bet your ass I'll be in the beta, it is the one franchise I legitimately care about and I had high hopes for its eventual MMO.  I sure as hell won't buy the game unless they make significant changes however.


     

    It is true. This game is not going to be what you imagined for all that time. It is not going to be what I imagined it would be either and many others will feel the same way.

    My point is there is no amount of complaining about it that will lead to change. Some aspects will be altered prior to release, but most of the foundation that people are upset about will remain. They can type endlessly on these forums attempting to build an anit-TESO army but it will change nothing.

    I realize that this game is not going to be what I expected and will decide at the time of release whether I will play it or not. I will not create a new thread, or post in every other TESO disappoints thread trying to rally the troops to my cause.

    If the game is not my taste I just don't buy or play it. That is the most effective way to give your opinion.

    Bloating out the beta servers just to get a taste can give the developers false hope they are doing the right thing unless you actually are giving honest and realistice feedback, but most "testers" are truely not qualified to do so. They just think they are.

     Once this game releases, what are the chances that us ES fans are ever going to get the "ES MMO we have always wanted"? 

    My guess is zero to none.  Game does well, they aren't going to make another one.  Game does poorly, they aren't going to make another one.  They have one chance to make "the ES mmo the fans have always wanted", not two, not three, one.

    A new RvR MMO by Matt firor is fine, but an ES MMO that is nothing like any ES game means that ES fans will NEVER get the mmo they've been waiting for.  It's even more insulting for them to announce the game as the ES MMO that ES fans have always wanted. 

    What ES fan was posting on the Beth forums that they wanted an ES mmo, but how great would it be if it was a themepark, with quest grinding like WoW, GW style combat, and DAoC RvR? 

     

    Agreed.

    None of us were ever wishing for something like this.

    If some other developer came out tomorrow with a press release and said "We are going to make an MMORPG that is everything TESO *should* have been.  Granted we'll have to change the names, but we're going to give TES fans the MMO they deserve,"  I can't tell you how over-joyed I'd be and how much support they would instantly garner.

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