To me the Norn seemed to have aptly forgotten that they were just defeated by Jormag, and everything is wonderful! They're just too oblivious and carefree at times.
Guild wars 2 is very much a pvp game with a side salad of pve. Stop trying to call a fish a chicken and see things for what they are.
Huh? Since when is Guild Wars 2 a pvp game only? The PVE in the game is superb compared to most, if not all, MMOs out there. I've yet to play a better PVE MMO and I've played them all.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Of course SWTOR class story is probably by far the best and most personal in a MMO we will see, and GW2 is quite behind that in that area. I often wished I had more answers to chose from, or a group dialogue. No MMO can be perfect in every aspect, so it doesn't diminish the fun.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I think Wicoa is saying that PVP will be the main source of endgame.
BTW, i personally like the "2 people next to each other" cutscenes. I think cinematic one are better, but it has a nice style to it IMO.
Anyway, personally, i don't like the way either GW2 or SWTOR do story. The whole "voice my character, branching paths with different outcomes" storyline belongs in a single players. There, the character is a pre-determined one with a backstory, emotional journey and where the choices you make REALLY affect the world around you. In both these games, the choices you make don't really impact anything.
I think SWTOR does it better, but we can't judge them fully until we see the end (that's the whole point of a story). But atleast, GW2 doesn't put much importance into it's personall story.
I have played both now and still in ToR even though I hardly play it these days. I can admit GW2 will be my main game upon release and I flat out think it's a better game than ToR. It does diminish the GW2 story for me or should I say it diminishes its delivery. The voice acting is medicore at best and that is being generous and the while some of ToR story elements are cheesy (jedi knight anyone?) they still round out to be good in the end.
It's one thing I can say ToR got right and delivered well. As a roleplayer I love the stories in games and find it a stretch to even say GW2's story deliverance is as good as ToR's because honestly...it isn't. That doesn't make the game bad. There is no perfect game anyway so there will be flaws but even this is still not a flaw. Just in comparison to a game that pretty much centered everything around story it falls short which should be expected.
Not to mention the amount of money ToR put into it *laughs*
One thing I noticed this weekend (it was my first time playing) is that the story just didn't excite me like SWTOR's personal story did. Had I never played SWTOR, I think I wouldn't have even noticed the flatness of the story.
Even though SWTOR's "choices" were generally just a facade, it still felt much more immersive than watching cinematics unfold with little say in how things turn out. Granted, there were a few occasions where I could guide the next event, but it was pretty rare.
This is my opinion, so I made a poll to see any of yours
Edit: I just want to add that I'm really not trying to troll. I enjoyed both games (although SWTOR fell short, as most agree these days). GW2 will be a good game regardless of the story. It was just hard not noticing the difference, and I want to see if others felt the same.
Also, this thread isn't really for commentary on SWTOR or GW2 as a whole, just the personal story part.
TOR story sucked and GW2 is about the same. Playing TSW the previous couple of weekends did set a much higher bar than either of those games though.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Someone already mentioned this, but my biggest problem with Guild Wars 2's cinematics is that there is a pause in dialogue which occurs really frequently. I can appreciate the two-character style which appears on screen, I enjoy the character models, and I like the background art. But, in addition to voice acting being very mediocre, my character waiting 3 seconds to respond to something outrageous is really annoying.
And to be perfectly honest, I preferred GW1 cinematics and storytelling over both SWTOR's and GW2's as far as I've seen, even though there was no choice in what I could say or do. I'll especially miss jewels like this.
TBH, I haven't really done much of the personal story in GW2. For me, MMORPGs are not, and really should not, be about the "story." Every single MMORPG I've played with a story experience (including SWTOR) has been inferior to the story experience of comparable single-player games.
I just see absolutely no incentive to go through a storyline in an MMORPG when I could do the same in a single player game...or even a book. It seems like every MMORPG I play, the story mechanics conflict with the MMORPG mechanics. This was extremely evident in SWTOR where you would see other players running around ignoring everyone and disappearing into instanced story areas because they were essentially playing a single player game in a shared world.
And even in GW2, it seems like the story clashes with the MMORPG elements of the game. People who like the story want to see what happens next, but are often disappointed when they discover that they need to level up in the open world between most story segments.
IMO...scripted "SPRPG-esque" stories should stay out of MMORPGs.
And even in GW2, it seems like the story clashes with the MMORPG elements of the game. People who like the story want to see what happens next, but are often disappointed when they discover that they need to level up in the open world between most story segments.
"There is no time to lose, we must go and save ____________"
"I'm on my way!"
Story instance complete.
Next instance 2 levels higher than player... Have to do some "open world" playing in order to level up but there are no consequences if I go there after a few in-game days, despite how urgent the matter is according to the npcs.
Yes indeed Single player RPG content should be left for single player RPGs.... Or maybe make the story content like this:
Play few quests in your personal story, resolve some issues, then go to the open world and level up more. When you reach an appropriate level another personal story sequence starts and so on. Telling me to "hurry" while the next instance is 2 levels higher than me is silly
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Short answer: No, it did not. I'd rather have the potential of a choice of voice than have a superb or iconic voice that is the only option.
And the only way it happens is if the voice actor isn't the focus of the story. I'll take hum-drum voices that don't kill the game budget and allow AN to let you pick your favorite from a set of options. (In theory - I don't know if AN will do it. But it's the only way it CAN happen, so it's the game design I want to see)
Yes, bad voice acting is bad, but it's not that hard to get it to average, and I'll live with average. It's just not *that* big of a difference between average and pro voices, to me anyway, that it will lessen the game experience. Iconic voice actors are nice if you can get them, but not at the cost of the game itself.
I actually like the story that plays out with actual gameplay. You know, the story behind the events or the lore by multiple npcs that piece together the story of the area you are in. People really seem to forget about that cutscenes do not equal story.
To answer the OP: No, GW2 story entertained me and SWToR's just bored me. Also, SWToR's cinematic animations are horrible in my eye. The main selling point of the game looked bad and just threw me off from even gettting immersed in it. It was like watching a movie with actors that were stiff and tried too hard get into poses.
TBH, I haven't really done much of the personal story in GW2. For me, MMORPGs are not, and really should not, be about the "story." Every single MMORPG I've played with a story experience (including SWTOR) has been inferior to the story experience of comparable single-player games.
I just see absolutely no incentive to go through a storyline in an MMORPG when I could do the same in a single player game...or even a book. It seems like every MMORPG I play, the story mechanics conflict with the MMORPG mechanics. This was extremely evident in SWTOR where you would see other players running around ignoring everyone and disappearing into instanced story areas because they were essentially playing a single player game in a shared world.
And even in GW2, it seems like the story clashes with the MMORPG elements of the game. People who like the story want to see what happens next, but are often disappointed when they discover that they need to level up in the open world between most story segments.
IMO...scripted "SPRPG-esque" stories should stay out of MMORPGs.
I agree, SPRG-esque stories hold no place in MMORPGs.
Something I would appriciate would be elaborate world events as story. They should be non-repeatable. They happen here and now. If you miss it for whatever reason, there should be some form of ingame database or other ways to get to know what happened in the world.
I have only played the Norn and Charr. The Norn story did remind me of SWTOR. Too much black and white. Too much bombast. The Charr story on the other hand really intrigued me. Though there is some black and white the story seems much more believable and interesting. Though I don't really want to run around looking like a Charr (I prefer dwarf-like toons) the story and the starting area is what I like the most.
If you understood the lore of the Guild Wars universe, then you would understand that with the Norn, everything IS black and white. It was that way, when listening to the Norn NPCs in GW1.
I think this is where people are missing out with GW2. The lore is very dee and intense and a.Net is trying to build on top of that for GW2. They did a very admirable job, in my humble opnion.
It makes me think of GW. I know that some people didn't like it, but I myself found the overall story pretty well done and delivered, with the nice setting up of Ascalon before the Searing that's still one of the most gorgeous areas and setpieces in the game and one of the most beautiful areas even compared with the areas of other MMO's. Which makes it even more heartrending when the Searing takes place and leaves everything in gloomy ruins. Nice touch. Also the rest of it, the trek through the mountains, the betrayals in Kryta, the Ascension and afterwards, at the end it really feels like a grand journey your characters have taken.
So far the personal storylines and overall storyline in GW2 seem to be slow burners. It doesn't have the suspense that I feel with TSW or the kick to it that GW's story had. But I haven't experienced much of the mid and high levels yet, so I can't say anything about that. Overall the GW2 areas present more context, detail and history to it than what usually can be experienced in areas in other MMO's, I like that.
Originally posted by Wicoa
What the....
Excuse me if I am wrong but I am sure people don't play GW2 for any kind of "story" they play GW2 to smack the faces in of two other factions which you can start doing from level 5 and never look back.
The OP's statement is all kinds of wrong.
I'm pretty sure that all kinds of people will play GW2 for various reasons that can be different from one person to the next. Comes with people not being all the same, with the exact same taste and preferences and all that.
Except that GW2 has very little pve and I would not recommend this game to a friend who was looking to story/pve/raid. Heck if you are looking for "story" Id recommend a roleplay guild in lord of the rings online. There are all types of games for different tastes. This is not a one size fits all scenario or industry.
I don't quite follow what you mean by very little pve. 70-80% of the game is pve, how much pve do you need to move out of the "very little" category?
Guild wars 2 is very much a pvp game with a side salad of pve. Stop trying to call a fish a chicken and see things for what they are.
Ok, so you have 4 zones for pvp and instanced structured pvp. You have 20+ zones of pve with over 1600 DE, a couple hundred hearts, and it is mainly pvp, gotcha.
Well this is bait for the GW2 haters who all play SWTOR.
And the SWTOR story is not that great.
Another important thing, swtor missed was this.
The Charr STARTING CITY has more areas in it than every city in SWTOR combined.
You want to know how Narr Shaddah should had been done? Or a Death Star?
Let GW2 show you what level design means.
Immersion is half the story after all. TOR has a meh story with no immersion at all, theres no contest here.
Hate to agree with you on bashing SW:TOR, but you're right. The cities of GW2 may be instanced (portals used to access), but they're HUGE and lively. There's an animal zoo in one of the lower subdistricts of Divinity's Reach, there's also a shooting gallery (not player interactive) with dozens of NPC's around it and a guy shooting moving wood targets. There's multiple botanical gardens, a giant pit called "The Sinking Gap", an aquarium walkthrough, a bazarr, and so much more. That's just one of the SIX major cities in the game.
Mind you still, the STORY of SW:TOR was/is great. The cutscenes there have animations, interactions, and make you feel part of the experience, rather than on the rails for the ride with hands inside not allowed to touch anything.
Well this is bait for the GW2 haters who all play SWTOR.
And the SWTOR story is not that great.
Another important thing, swtor missed was this.
The Charr STARTING CITY has more areas in it than every city in SWTOR combined.
You want to know how Narr Shaddah should had been done? Or a Death Star?
Let GW2 show you what level design means.
Immersion is half the story after all. TOR has a meh story with no immersion at all, theres no contest here.
Hate to agree with you on bashing SW:TOR, but you're right. The cities of GW2 may be instanced (portals used to access), but they're HUGE and lively. There's an animal zoo in one of the lower subdistricts of Divinity's Reach, there's also a shooting gallery (not player interactive) with dozens of NPC's around it and a guy shooting moving wood targets. There's multiple botanical gardens, a giant pit called "The Sinking Gap", an aquarium walkthrough, a bazarr, and so much more. That's just one of the SIX major cities in the game.
Mind you still, the STORY of SW:TOR was/is great. The cutscenes there have animations, interactions, and make you feel part of the experience, rather than on the rails for the ride with hands inside not allowed to touch anything.
The shooting gallery is actually a planned mini-game. Many of the things marked with point of interest markers inside cities are going to be used as mini-games if they look like one.
I found the main story cutscenes very F2P compared to the SWTOR cutscenes, that is me though. People trying to say this is a PvP centric game vs a PvE centric game really need a reality check.
Hold on, the SWTOR story was great? I mean, sure, it was cool. But it is super linear. Even in the GW2 beta I have had choices that actually efffect my gameplay. For instance, I got to choose whether to attack a group head on at their base, or ambush them, and the gameplay reflects it.
The SWTOR story doesn't mean crap, except that you get some light/dark points, get to have sex with someone, or get some money in the mail. Beyond that, it was completely pointless. Entertaining sure, but with out gameplay to back it up, it is definitely worse.
I feel like my decisions matter more in GW2 than in SWTOR, and I have only played it for a couple days. And honestly, I couldn't give 2 shits about the story. Gameplay is number one on my list, and SWTOR was one of the worst/easy-mode games I have played in a long time as far as gameplay. Then again, so is pretty much every Bioware game. Gameplay >>>>> everything else.
There is no reason to bash SWTOR in this thread.... that will cause unnecessary drama.
If they release Knights of the Old Republic 3 keeping everything plot-wise the same but changing the game to true single player I will certainly play it. So yes I did like the plot in SWTOR but it had absolutely no effect on how I saw the story in Guild Wars 2. Why should it anyway?
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Instead of trying to justify the story telling in Guild Wars 2 by comparing every other aspect of the game with SWTOR, I'll just go for the short answer to OP's question :P
Yes, I do believe that SWTOR might have spoiled me when it comes to story telling in MMOs. And yes, when it comes to (Guild Wars 2 vs SWTOR) story telling, SWTOR is the clear winner (IMO), BUT that does not mean I will enjoy Guild Wars 2 any less than I would if I never played SWTOR.
SWTOR showed me that story is the least important aspect of a video game. GW2's personal story is not my favorite part of the game. If it wasn't in the game my opinion of GW2 would be the same.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
do you guys know that gw2 is still in beta ? and that they are still working on alot of things. So things can still change
Yes, of course. I don't think the story will change much. However, if it could, now is the time to criticize. Letting ANet know the bar was raised and (in the area of story) they are below it is best done during beta, not after release...really it's best done in alpha or before
SWTOR showed me that story is the least important aspect of a video game. GW2's personal story is not my favorite part of the game. If it wasn't in the game my opinion of GW2 would be the same.
In some sense I agree with you. I think combat is probably the most important part.
However, SWTOR did show me that a fun story-line really drove my interest for my character himself. Without the story, the character is just a proxy for me to kill things. With the story, I feel more like I am living through him. Like you said though, good story alone wasn't enough to keep me after I got one character to the end
Comments
To me the Norn seemed to have aptly forgotten that they were just defeated by Jormag, and everything is wonderful! They're just too oblivious and carefree at times.
Huh? Since when is Guild Wars 2 a pvp game only? The PVE in the game is superb compared to most, if not all, MMOs out there. I've yet to play a better PVE MMO and I've played them all.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Of course SWTOR class story is probably by far the best and most personal in a MMO we will see, and GW2 is quite behind that in that area. I often wished I had more answers to chose from, or a group dialogue. No MMO can be perfect in every aspect, so it doesn't diminish the fun.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I think Wicoa is saying that PVP will be the main source of endgame.
BTW, i personally like the "2 people next to each other" cutscenes. I think cinematic one are better, but it has a nice style to it IMO.
Anyway, personally, i don't like the way either GW2 or SWTOR do story. The whole "voice my character, branching paths with different outcomes" storyline belongs in a single players. There, the character is a pre-determined one with a backstory, emotional journey and where the choices you make REALLY affect the world around you. In both these games, the choices you make don't really impact anything.
I think SWTOR does it better, but we can't judge them fully until we see the end (that's the whole point of a story). But atleast, GW2 doesn't put much importance into it's personall story.
I have played both now and still in ToR even though I hardly play it these days. I can admit GW2 will be my main game upon release and I flat out think it's a better game than ToR. It does diminish the GW2 story for me or should I say it diminishes its delivery. The voice acting is medicore at best and that is being generous and the while some of ToR story elements are cheesy (jedi knight anyone?) they still round out to be good in the end.
It's one thing I can say ToR got right and delivered well. As a roleplayer I love the stories in games and find it a stretch to even say GW2's story deliverance is as good as ToR's because honestly...it isn't. That doesn't make the game bad. There is no perfect game anyway so there will be flaws but even this is still not a flaw. Just in comparison to a game that pretty much centered everything around story it falls short which should be expected.
Not to mention the amount of money ToR put into it *laughs*
TOR story sucked and GW2 is about the same. Playing TSW the previous couple of weekends did set a much higher bar than either of those games though.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Someone already mentioned this, but my biggest problem with Guild Wars 2's cinematics is that there is a pause in dialogue which occurs really frequently. I can appreciate the two-character style which appears on screen, I enjoy the character models, and I like the background art. But, in addition to voice acting being very mediocre, my character waiting 3 seconds to respond to something outrageous is really annoying.
And to be perfectly honest, I preferred GW1 cinematics and storytelling over both SWTOR's and GW2's as far as I've seen, even though there was no choice in what I could say or do. I'll especially miss jewels like this.
TBH, I haven't really done much of the personal story in GW2. For me, MMORPGs are not, and really should not, be about the "story." Every single MMORPG I've played with a story experience (including SWTOR) has been inferior to the story experience of comparable single-player games.
I just see absolutely no incentive to go through a storyline in an MMORPG when I could do the same in a single player game...or even a book. It seems like every MMORPG I play, the story mechanics conflict with the MMORPG mechanics. This was extremely evident in SWTOR where you would see other players running around ignoring everyone and disappearing into instanced story areas because they were essentially playing a single player game in a shared world.
And even in GW2, it seems like the story clashes with the MMORPG elements of the game. People who like the story want to see what happens next, but are often disappointed when they discover that they need to level up in the open world between most story segments.
IMO...scripted "SPRPG-esque" stories should stay out of MMORPGs.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
"There is no time to lose, we must go and save ____________"
"I'm on my way!"
Story instance complete.
Next instance 2 levels higher than player... Have to do some "open world" playing in order to level up but there are no consequences if I go there after a few in-game days, despite how urgent the matter is according to the npcs.
Yes indeed Single player RPG content should be left for single player RPGs.... Or maybe make the story content like this:
Play few quests in your personal story, resolve some issues, then go to the open world and level up more. When you reach an appropriate level another personal story sequence starts and so on. Telling me to "hurry" while the next instance is 2 levels higher than me is silly
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Saying TOR influenced GW2 is ludicrous. GW2 was in development before TOR, so TOR may have stolen the idea from GW2.
I did play TOR beta and found it lacking in immersion and MMO play. GW2 is a true MMO.
Short answer: No, it did not. I'd rather have the potential of a choice of voice than have a superb or iconic voice that is the only option.
And the only way it happens is if the voice actor isn't the focus of the story. I'll take hum-drum voices that don't kill the game budget and allow AN to let you pick your favorite from a set of options. (In theory - I don't know if AN will do it. But it's the only way it CAN happen, so it's the game design I want to see)
Yes, bad voice acting is bad, but it's not that hard to get it to average, and I'll live with average. It's just not *that* big of a difference between average and pro voices, to me anyway, that it will lessen the game experience. Iconic voice actors are nice if you can get them, but not at the cost of the game itself.
Avatars are people too
I actually like the story that plays out with actual gameplay. You know, the story behind the events or the lore by multiple npcs that piece together the story of the area you are in. People really seem to forget about that cutscenes do not equal story.
To answer the OP: No, GW2 story entertained me and SWToR's just bored me. Also, SWToR's cinematic animations are horrible in my eye. The main selling point of the game looked bad and just threw me off from even gettting immersed in it. It was like watching a movie with actors that were stiff and tried too hard get into poses.
BOOYAKA!
I agree, SPRG-esque stories hold no place in MMORPGs.
Something I would appriciate would be elaborate world events as story. They should be non-repeatable. They happen here and now. If you miss it for whatever reason, there should be some form of ingame database or other ways to get to know what happened in the world.
Ok, so you have 4 zones for pvp and instanced structured pvp. You have 20+ zones of pve with over 1600 DE, a couple hundred hearts, and it is mainly pvp, gotcha.
Hate to agree with you on bashing SW:TOR, but you're right. The cities of GW2 may be instanced (portals used to access), but they're HUGE and lively. There's an animal zoo in one of the lower subdistricts of Divinity's Reach, there's also a shooting gallery (not player interactive) with dozens of NPC's around it and a guy shooting moving wood targets. There's multiple botanical gardens, a giant pit called "The Sinking Gap", an aquarium walkthrough, a bazarr, and so much more. That's just one of the SIX major cities in the game.
Mind you still, the STORY of SW:TOR was/is great. The cutscenes there have animations, interactions, and make you feel part of the experience, rather than on the rails for the ride with hands inside not allowed to touch anything.
The shooting gallery is actually a planned mini-game. Many of the things marked with point of interest markers inside cities are going to be used as mini-games if they look like one.
SWTOR Hater here.
If SWTOR does one thing right it's the story and immersion of the story.
Maybe it's just down to opinion, but I honestly don't think you've ever played TOR, or not for very long.
Of course GW2 fangurls won't agree with this.
(I don't dislike GW2, I just dislike GW2 fangurls who hate on every other game because it's not GW2.)
I found the main story cutscenes very F2P compared to the SWTOR cutscenes, that is me though. People trying to say this is a PvP centric game vs a PvE centric game really need a reality check.
Hold on, the SWTOR story was great? I mean, sure, it was cool. But it is super linear. Even in the GW2 beta I have had choices that actually efffect my gameplay. For instance, I got to choose whether to attack a group head on at their base, or ambush them, and the gameplay reflects it.
The SWTOR story doesn't mean crap, except that you get some light/dark points, get to have sex with someone, or get some money in the mail. Beyond that, it was completely pointless. Entertaining sure, but with out gameplay to back it up, it is definitely worse.
I feel like my decisions matter more in GW2 than in SWTOR, and I have only played it for a couple days. And honestly, I couldn't give 2 shits about the story. Gameplay is number one on my list, and SWTOR was one of the worst/easy-mode games I have played in a long time as far as gameplay. Then again, so is pretty much every Bioware game. Gameplay >>>>> everything else.
There is no reason to bash SWTOR in this thread.... that will cause unnecessary drama.
If they release Knights of the Old Republic 3 keeping everything plot-wise the same but changing the game to true single player I will certainly play it. So yes I did like the plot in SWTOR but it had absolutely no effect on how I saw the story in Guild Wars 2. Why should it anyway?
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
SWTOR showed me that story is the least important aspect of a video game. GW2's personal story is not my favorite part of the game. If it wasn't in the game my opinion of GW2 would be the same.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Yes, of course. I don't think the story will change much. However, if it could, now is the time to criticize. Letting ANet know the bar was raised and (in the area of story) they are below it is best done during beta, not after release...really it's best done in alpha or before
http://f.cl.ly/items/3n15423i0G2i111y3c2b/computer.gif
All SWTOR's personal story did was diminish my faith in BioWare's ability to write good stories.
In some sense I agree with you. I think combat is probably the most important part.
However, SWTOR did show me that a fun story-line really drove my interest for my character himself. Without the story, the character is just a proxy for me to kill things. With the story, I feel more like I am living through him. Like you said though, good story alone wasn't enough to keep me after I got one character to the end
http://f.cl.ly/items/3n15423i0G2i111y3c2b/computer.gif