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Why (most) MMO developers are insane.

dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member

Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

...

Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

...

This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

«13

Comments

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    See this is all in your head, that everybody is copying WoW.

     

    LoTRO for example, is AC3 with LoTR IP on top. follow AC1-3 you can see how it was slowly changing from Sandbox to themepark over time.

     

    also keep in mind that the Themepark model, which we tend to call WoW clones now days, was done by Everquest 1, years in advance, which is what the model is based fully on with added perks. WoW is no different in that logic as well.

    WoW is the most popular MMO on the market, so people compare everything to it, but seem to forget the parts where they try to be unique in.

    WoW is a clone of EQ1 with a few less time sinks. nothing really unique about it.  Post WoW MMO, have many unique concepts. you just over look them.

    image

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    The main problem is that games that release doing something 'different' still don't do that good, albeit for different reasons.

    DDO never did that well, they assume it was because it was "too different", but they fail to attribute it to the claustrophobic nature of the world design.

    Tera isn't doing all that well, they assume it's because it's "too different", but don't see how the west reacts to Eastern art styles and aesthetics (poorly).

    Mortal Online is doing... how it's doing... and they *know* it's because it;s "too different", but fail to see the mark of 'amateur' all over it that any normal person can see.

     

    It's a failure to see the big picture and be stuck in hyperbole. A business degree doesn't make one any kind of analyst, it just makes them a person who was able to afford a 3-4 year degree - nothing more.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • terrantterrant Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 1,683Member

    Funny story. A few years back, there was this MMO. It jumped into a very small, nearly non-existent game market, and took it by storm. It offered a streamlined, structured experience compared to the confusing open-ended messes prior to it. It had a sub count MANY times higher than anyone else.

     

    For years, EVERY MMO was accused of trying to be the one to kill it. Many even flat out claimed they could. But no one ever did. It's still running today, with a surprisingly large playerbase given its aged graphics and now-same-as-everyone-else gameplay.

     

    I am, of course, talking about the original Everquest.

     

    Oh wait, you thought I meant WoW. Hehe. I can see why. Point is, the whole "There's this King of MMOs everyone wants to beat that's an unheard of phenomena" is really nothing new. The scale's bigger now, perhaps, but it's the same thing. One day WoW will fall by the wayside, some new Big Thing will appear, and we'll gripe that X game is fail when it doesn't have 100+ million subs like The Next Big Thing.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    Except that LOTRO did very well and made a lot of money and a lot of gamers enjoy it.

    Except that Rift did very well and made a lot of money and a lot of gamers enjoy it.

    Except that SWTOR has done pretty good, made a lot of money and a lot of gamers enjoy it.

     

    So they aren't expecting different results, they are expecting the same reults.  To do very well, make a lot of money, and a lot of gamers will enjoy it.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • thekid1thekid1 GroningenPosts: 789Member

    Nice theory. But what if they don't want to beat WOW but just want a piece of the pie.

    AKA just copy another game so development is relative easy and rake up some profits. I'm sure all the games you list ARE making a profit or atleast don't lose money.

  • cooper85cooper85 Springfield, ILPosts: 386Member

    It makes no sense well the only sence it makes is that it's easier. So many companies take the easy way out when they can't deliver on promise. Instead of going further and making their cool idea work, they change it or cut it, then spin it as "We did this for you!"

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cooper85

    It makes no sense well the only sence it makes is that it's easier. So many companies take the easy way out when they can't deliver on promise. Instead of going further and making their cool idea work, they change it or cut it, then spin it as "We did this for you!"

    WoW did the same thing. Whats so different between WoW and EQ1 besides time sinks? come on...

     

    not much. same amount of difference can be traced in post WoW MMO. Just not done in the same manner like the transition from EQ to WoW was.

    image

  • RoyalPhunkRoyalPhunk Vancouver, BCPosts: 174Member

    +1 OP

     

    I have often thought the exact same thing. Wonder how long it will last...

  • NilenyaNilenya TMIPosts: 364Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    See this is all in your head, that everybody is copying WoW.

     

    LoTRO for example, is AC3 with LoTR IP on top. follow AC1-3 you can see how it was slowly changing from Sandbox to themepark over time.

     

    also keep in mind that the Themepark model, which we tend to call WoW clones now days, was done by Everquest 1, years in advance, which is what the model is based fully on with added perks. WoW is no different in that logic as well.

    WoW is the most popular MMO on the market, so people compare everything to it, but seem to forget the parts where they try to be unique in.

    WoW is a clone of EQ1 with a few less time sinks. nothing really unique about it.  Post WoW MMO, have many unique concepts. you just over look them.

     

    It is true that wow was inspired - alot- by EQ1, but then again you had 2 developers on Wow, having come straight from the two most successfull raiding guilds in EQ1, namely Furor, and Tigole - and so ofcourse there would be inspiration abound. But that DOES NOT make EQ1 a themepark mmo.

     

    EQ1 in its original form, from 1999 to roughly planes of power, not including the Ldon expansion was a true Sandbox mmo. 

     

     

    Stop namedropping oldschool mmo's if you cannot put them into context correctly. 

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by cooper85

    It makes no sense well the only sence it makes is that it's easier. So many companies take the easy way out when they can't deliver on promise. Instead of going further and making their cool idea work, they change it or cut it, then spin it as "We did this for you!"

    WoW did the same thing. Whats so different between WoW and EQ1 besides time sinks? come on...

    The fact that many EQ1 players came from UO and Meridian, with very few having it be their *first* MMO, while WoW is the exact opposite.

    The refer a friend program is what made WoW what it is today, because in doing so it popped a lot of MMO cherries, and now gives the kind of nostagia for them that I get when reminiscing over UO and SWG. I think those were the highlights of the entire genre, and now millions of others think WoW is.

    Nothing else can ever come out and change the way rose-tinted glasses work.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • Ashen_XAshen_X PLEASANT HILL, CAPosts: 363Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    This is only applicable if you can establish that these various developers actually expected to beat WoW.

     

    When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  • BanegrivmBanegrivm Camp Hill, PAPosts: 194Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

     

     

    You my friend, are a wise man. That's the root of the problem with the gaming industry right now when it comes to MMO's. That's not an industry problem however, it's a "business problem". People in business, at least investors, suits in companies, etc. don't like to experiment. They like to do what other companies are already doing that's making a profit and they will often try to append their copy with upgraded features. Hence all the WoW clones. However, the first company to innovate and succeed rakes in all the big bucks. 

     

    I've been playing MMO's since NWN on AOL, Shadows of Yserbius, Multiplayer Battletech, etc. and I am really sick of the WoW clones, I think this is the worst point ever in the history of MMO's. I keep looking back at those games I mentioned (all of which came out before UO and EQ), and they were so much more fun then the modern crop of MMO's. What's worse is those games run circles around modern MMO's and they were built on technologies that were seriously outdated and used EGA graphics. You could probably play any of those games on a cell phone I bet nowadays.

     

    I'm looking forward to picking up Day Z when I get some cash and I really can't wait for Mechwarrior Online. 

     

    Banegrivm
    Leader of the 1st Fist of Light
    www.1stfistoflight.com

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

     

    LOTRO is still running strong after so many years. So certainly it is making enough money.

    Rift seems to be doing fine since they also have new content and stuff.

    So while none of these games beat WOW, i do not seem a problem of copying WOW if at least some of them make money. You do not see HTC stop making phones even though Apple sells more iphones, do you?

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GTwander
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by cooper85

    It makes no sense well the only sence it makes is that it's easier. So many companies take the easy way out when they can't deliver on promise. Instead of going further and making their cool idea work, they change it or cut it, then spin it as "We did this for you!"

    WoW did the same thing. Whats so different between WoW and EQ1 besides time sinks? come on...

    The fact that many EQ1 players came from UO and Meridian, with very few having it be their *first* MMO, while WoW is the exact opposite.

    The refer a friend program is what made WoW what it is today, because in doing so it popped a lot of MMO cherries, and now gives the kind of nostagia for them that I get when reminiscing over UO and SWG. I think those were the highlights of the entire genre, and now millions of others think WoW is.

    Nothing else can ever come out and change the way rose-tinted glasses work.

    I would say it was the other way around in regards to EQ, by far the majority of people playing EQ it was their first, only a small number came from a previous game. 

    Yes WoW did have a lot of newcomers, no denying that.  But saying EQ didn't is IMO false.

    The refer a friend program started several years after WoW went big.  It actually started in 2008.  In January of 2008 WoW had allready achieved 10 million players.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Recruit-A-Friend

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft#Reception

    World of Warcraft was the best-selling PC game of 2005 and 2006.[86] As of January 22, 2008, World of Warcraft has more than 10 million subscribers worldwide, with more than 2 million subscribers in Europe, more than 2.5 million in North America, and about 5.5 million in Asia.[87]

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • GTwanderGTwander San Diego, CAPosts: 6,035Member

    Lies! that's what Blizzard wants you to think. >_>   <_<

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GTwander

    Lies! that's what Blizzard wants you to think. >_>   <_<

    Possibly but given a choice between a publicy traded company with investors, banking statements and federal oversight and some random guy on the net.  I'll go with the company unless the random net guy offers compelling evidence.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Nilenya

     

    It is true that wow was inspired - alot- by EQ1, but then again you had 2 developers on Wow, having come straight from the two most successfull raiding guilds in EQ1, namely Furor, and Tigole - and so ofcourse there would be inspiration abound. But that DOES NOT make EQ1 a themepark mmo.

     

    EQ1 in its original form, from 1999 to roughly planes of power, not including the Ldon expansion was a true Sandbox mmo. 

     

    Stop namedropping oldschool mmo's if you cannot put them into context correctly. 

    Umm you must have never played AC or UO if you think EQ was a sandbox.

    Stop namedropping oldschool mmo's if you cannot put them into context correctly.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by GTwander

    Lies! that's what Blizzard wants you to think. >_>   <_<

    Possibly but given a choice between a publicy traded company with investors, banking statements and federal oversight and some random guy on the net.  I'll go with the company unless the random net guy offers compelling evidence.

    I will to...Unless those aliens and their mothership returns.

  • chefdiablochefdiablo Barrie, ONPosts: 202Member

    I would like to know what people want MMOs to bring to the table that will not be like WOW.

     

    What features should developers leave out of their games in order to be unlike WOW?

    Moreover, after these features are left out of the game how do the developers sustain their game when the rest of the community turns around and demands most of those features to be included or else they will fail?

    Need proof? Read every single thread around here about Rift, SWTOR, TSW, GW2, Tera, and everyone else. There are countless threads of people stating how each and every game needs to fix features and add features. Those features they are requesting are all found in WOW.....the very game no one wants to have copied, but they must have those features in order to survive.

     

    Conclusion; People have no idea what they really want.

    Result; Developers make bland, generic games with blanket features. They are casting a large net hoping to land as many fish as possible.

  • BreitbartBreitbart Seattle, WAPosts: 22Member

    mmo's died with vanilla wow.  

     

    Not, taking STO and SW:TOR as perfect examples, mmo's are dead and are nothing more than lobby-system, heavily instanced cooperative online rpg's that enable suckers that think otherwise to pay $15 bucks for them.

     

    STO already lost the ballte, as did WAR and AoC, etc. and now we see TOR losing the battle.  There is only so much that even mmo appologists will put up with.  Paying $15/month for a lobby system rpg isn't one of them. 

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,657Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    Except that LOTRO did very well and made a lot of money and a lot of gamers enjoy it.

    Except that Rift did very well and made a lot of money and a lot of gamers enjoy it.

    Except that SWTOR has done pretty good, made a lot of money and a lot of gamers enjoy it.

     

    So they aren't expecting different results, they are expecting the same reults.  To do very well, make a lot of money, and a lot of gamers will enjoy it.

    Add to that, most of the MMOs presented never set out to beat WoW.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • DeaconXDeaconX Toronto, ONPosts: 3,067Member
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    Designers don't get their way.  Directors do.  There's a difference mate.

    image

    Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.

    BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    And yet... most of those are horrible examples of WoW clones. You got it right with SWTOR, you are probably right w/ Elder Scrolls (it's all speculation at this point, we have no idea how the game is actually going to ship).

    LotRO is definitely not a WoW clone. It plays different, it feels different, it's setup / designed different, and it's also a pretty successful MMO. It's goal was never to 'beat WoW'. It was to make a massive game around Tolkein lore, which, surprise surprise. It did.

    Age of Conan, is also very different from WoW in a number of ways. It has gear, quests, and dungeons. Great! must be a complete clone then, right? Age of Conan failed because it was released unfinished. Had nothing to do w/ WoW.

    Warhammer, again, was based more around a DAoC model, than the WoW one. Just because something has quests & gear doesn't make it WoW. WAR was far more PvP centered than WoW ever was. Like AoC, it failed because it was released too soon / unfished. It had a lot of bugs, and a lack of support from EA. Nothing to do w/ WoW.

    Rift is somewhere in between WAR & WoW. It is probably the next closest thing to a WoW clone, inspite them doing a good number of things differently. It's goal, again, was not to beat WoW. It's also still doing fairly well for a newer developer.

    And lastly... calling GW2 a WoW clone is absolutely laughable. It's fantasy, it has gear, it has dungeons... nearly everything else is so different from WoW it would take an entire new thread just to cover this. The developers are also basing their actions off of a design philosophy that is extremely differnet from Blizzard's. Really, a terrible example.

    - I'd agree with you (for the most part) if you actually picked good examples, lol. Most of these are basically ignoring most of what these games offered, in an attempt to fit them into the WoW mold. A lot of this seems to be in players heads, and in a way that is insanity. Constantly hoping to the next best thing, only to reduce it down to another WoW clone whether it is or not. This year actually has some good examples of games trying to do things differently. People just need to open their eyes to it.

  • Moaky07Moaky07 Flushing, MIPosts: 2,096Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Nilenya

     

    It is true that wow was inspired - alot- by EQ1, but then again you had 2 developers on Wow, having come straight from the two most successfull raiding guilds in EQ1, namely Furor, and Tigole - and so ofcourse there would be inspiration abound. But that DOES NOT make EQ1 a themepark mmo.

     

    EQ1 in its original form, from 1999 to roughly planes of power, not including the Ldon expansion was a true Sandbox mmo. 

     

    Stop namedropping oldschool mmo's if you cannot put them into context correctly. 

    Umm you must have never played AC or UO if you think EQ was a sandbox.

    Stop namedropping oldschool mmo's if you cannot put them into context correctly.

    Wow man saved me a post. Good job not being rude about it. /salute

     

    EQ had several sanboxy feeling items, but in no way/shape/form was there any doubt it was a themepark.

    Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Rift did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; it failed to beat WoW.

    ...

    Guild Wars 2 is doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    The Elder Scrolls Online appears to be doing the WoW formula for the most part.

    ...

    This is why pretty much every Lead Designer at a major studio working on an MMO is totally, stark raving bonkers.

    "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

     

    "A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary."

    An example of a delusion: believing that one knows the thoughts, motives, and intentions of another person or group of persons with whom they have had little to no contact.  It is indeed true that we can never truly know the thoughts of others, and it is delusional to presume we can.

    I mean no disrespect, i hope you can appreciate the humor in my response.  As others have pointed out, their motives in making those games were possibly more profit based than based on the notion that someone must  "Kill WOW."  I would correct your original post to something along the lines of:

     

    Lord of the Rings Online did the WoW formula; profit.

    Warhammer Online did the WoW formula; profit.

    Age of Conan did the WoW formula; profit.

    Rift did the WoW formula; profit.

    Star Wars The Old Republic did the WoW formula; profit.

    This is once again in jest, I of course have no clue what kind of revenue these businesses saw.  I can only assume it wasn't terrible as they seem to have stuck with the plan and every one of these games is still live!

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