The consensus is selfishness and elitism, of course not all soloers are, but in general they are anti-social, so they solo.
Even the group content, like in Aion, players simply level up high enough to solo it.
I don´t think so.
Many people just solo because it is faster, the real selfish people hang in groups but let the others do most work only to ninja and log out as soon as what they want drops.
A lot of people just follow the carrot and just a few years ago dungeons were the fastest way to level up. Now it is running fast soloquests.
Agree with you there Loke666 but there's another type of selfishness going on in the gaming community and that's of the hardcore players, they wish that all games be nothing more then hardcore and a time wasters so they can have the best stuff just to strut around with in the lobby type games where everyones hanging out in the big cities waiting for groups.
It's selfish not because of the crap they want to gather and wear to strut around in, it's selfish because they want EVERY game to be like that instead of these games being well balanced for the entire gaming community like they should be. A good example of this is SWTOR. Right now, it's basically a raid only group only game end game. There is nothing but the standard lobby style gameplay in it, standing around waiting for groups for the endless treadmill, it doesn't have any random events, community quests (not in the truest sense of community quests that repeat in an area), or event handling like what one would find in a balanced game where people could continue to not group and still earn currency/gear to progress/improve.
Balance is necessary even in games to get the largest gaming community possible to earn the most money. The gaming companies should be working towards balance not just for the fun of it but also for the good business practice of it, the more players you have the better and catering to niche players doesn't really bring in the money especially for the new games trying to capture WoW players.
If your main "grouping" experience comes from games like WoW, then you are sadly misleaded on what grouping in "forced" group MMOs works. Adalwulf mentionned EVE Online, and you should definitively check it out. I doubt you'd like it, but it's a perfect example of players getting together, forming long-term groups (turning into Clans) and achieving a lot of amazing things.
Do you even read what I write? I've been playing MMORPGs since UO, and MUDs before, and my experience, be it grouping or not, is definitely not limited to WoW and its clones.
I've seen games like UO or AC1 (one sandbox, one more "theme parkish"), which aren't group centric at all, but had communities much better than any "forced grouping" EQ clone. Forced grouping, no matter how it's done, does NOT make better communities. Forced "socialisation" is a recipe for bad communities.
And sorry, but in EvE, grouping is not forced. Forced grouping doesn't mean being in a guild/clan. Forced grouping means reaching a point where you can't progress anymore without grouping. See previous posts about the mentalities it breeds, and the inevitable elitism resulting of it.
My main point remains "do NOT blame "soloers" for problems that don't come from them, but from the game's design".
I do read what you write, and that's exactly why my post came out that way. You're using WoW players as your arguments and considering it's the very game that began catering to solo players, it's hardly the best example to talk about how grouping makes people elitist.
Games like UO are a lot more group-centric than you claim, but they also offer alternative activities that any players, group or solo, can partake in. The thing with these kinds of games was, and still is, that you are part of the world, a much larger group where the actions of groups and individuals matters. If I were to use an analogy, it's a bit like the internet. We're all part of a larger community, but actions of both groups and individuals can have an impact on the internet, just like the actions groups and individuals in UO or EVE could have an impact on their respective games. Here's a wonderful story from EVE, just 2 guys 1 Ponzi Scheme. But in the end, you're still part of that much larger group and your actions will determine how other players view you (even more so if the game is a FFA PvP with full loot). That is why these MMOs had a much better community.
The notion of "forced grouping" is silly to begin with, but something solo players have began to twist around thinking they'd have to be 24/7 with other players doing heroics. That's ridiculous, and definitively not what grouping used to be (and still is in games like EVE).
But yes, soloers are the problems. WAR, AOC, AION, Rift, SWTOR, and all the other clones that are attempting to imitate WoW's success, they're all solo-centric MMORPGs. Because that's what these players want.
Edit: I know that EVE is not a forced grouping MMORPG. I had put quotation marks around "forced" because I dislike the notion (as pointed above) but it's the best word to use for some players to understand sadly. Like with "hardcore" or any other words that's been twisted around times and times again to mean something entirely different from it's original intended purpose.
Nonsense. The elitism breeded by forced grouping gear centric games was already present in Everquest, which was a forced grouping game from level 1 to max. Your little theory that soloers ruin those games is just wrong. What ruins communities is the forced grouping to grind gear and make your character progress, which achieves the opposite effect than it's supposed to and breeds individualism because you compete with the people of your own team for gear you acquired in a group of 10, 25 or even 40+ people. I've never seen those attitudes except in EQ/WoW clones.
But please, keep on blaming your scapegoat, the soloer, while ignoring the real problems. In the meantime, I'll be playing GW2...
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I've noticed a trend -- and it may not be accurate, which is why I'm mentioning it was just a trend -- that the pvp-minded players are also the ones who seem to like forced grouping the most (or grouping, or suggested grouping...whatever term you prefer, its not meant to be insulting). I don't like pvp a lot at all. I like to solo things.
But as a player on Aion's 'new' server, I also have done a metric ton of group quests -- I didn't, as others said before, just level up higher and do it alone. I've had some decent groups, some great groups, and some really terrible groups (and even one group that was game-terrible, but too fun to leave. It was a trainwreck in the making.) I did a ton of group quests in WoW, from Burning Crusade to Cataclysm and I will do so again in Pandaria. I'll do dungeons and raids...and I'll solo old dungeons for fun and practice.
I also don't get all elitst on people when I'm in a group which is in direct contradiction to the blanket generalizations made about WoW players a page or two ago and how we're all elitists because we like to solo. I liked to solo in DDO, and despite having some good groups (primarily in the 'raid' style dungeons, TS, VoN, RR, Necro) I preferred to solo/solo with henchmen because I liked the challenge of it. I'll group if it sounds fun. If someone needs help, too. But the thought of 'having' to group as soon as I log on is just...well, tiring.
Then someone else called the 24/7 group mentality a strawman. Well, if you don't want us playing solo, and you're not always in a group...what are you doing all those other hours? I daresay if you're not in a group, you're soloing. It's two discrete states. I don't see how it's a strawman. If I've overlooked something, please tell me - I'm always open to new considerations.
Finally, someone said that solo players should never expect to see group content, and the best rewards should only be for groups. I think this is terrible, myself. Give me the option of grouping or using henchmen/NPC's. I won't always solo it, but the option remains there if I want it. Tune it to be hard but doable. I feel like a lot of people are young enough that they haven't envisioned a day where all their 'friends' are a very small number, most/all of whom won't even play the game they enjoy. Online friends are nice, but their lives are unpredictable also and you never know if they're going to really, truly be there until they actually show up for content - a problem RL friends don't have as much.
In closing, people know that this genre arose from pnp games...don't tell me you haven't ever played/ran a solo adventure for your friends and tossed in a couple NPC's to aid them. I guess that's not something done as commonly anymore, what with the nature of the changes that descended with 3rd edition...but I know it was really common back in the late 80's and into the 90's, and likely before that. How good would the Dungeon of Dread have been for example, if right after 'Turn to Page 3' it said 'You need 5 other people to buy this book before you continue.'?
The strawman is what Irus said, that people who like to group, want to be in groups 24/7, which is not true.
Your post is laughable at best, basically your claiming to be the ultimate exception, the soloer that groups, the soloer that isnt an elitist, the soloer that ....ect ...ect..
If your main "grouping" experience comes from games like WoW, then you are sadly misleaded on what grouping in "forced" group MMOs works. Adalwulf mentionned EVE Online, and you should definitively check it out. I doubt you'd like it, but it's a perfect example of players getting together, forming long-term groups (turning into Clans) and achieving a lot of amazing things.
Do you even read what I write? I've been playing MMORPGs since UO, and MUDs before, and my experience, be it grouping or not, is definitely not limited to WoW and its clones.
I've seen games like UO or AC1 (one sandbox, one more "theme parkish"), which aren't group centric at all, but had communities much better than any "forced grouping" EQ clone. Forced grouping, no matter how it's done, does NOT make better communities. Forced "socialisation" is a recipe for bad communities.
And sorry, but in EvE, grouping is not forced. Forced grouping doesn't mean being in a guild/clan. Forced grouping means reaching a point where you can't progress anymore without grouping. See previous posts about the mentalities it breeds, and the inevitable elitism resulting of it.
My main point remains "do NOT blame "soloers" for problems that don't come from them, but from the game's design".
I do read what you write, and that's exactly why my post came out that way. You're using WoW players as your arguments and considering it's the very game that began catering to solo players, it's hardly the best example to talk about how grouping makes people elitist.
Games like UO are a lot more group-centric than you claim, but they also offer alternative activities that any players, group or solo, can partake in. The thing with these kinds of games was, and still is, that you are part of the world, a much larger group where the actions of groups and individuals matters. If I were to use an analogy, it's a bit like the internet. We're all part of a larger community, but actions of both groups and individuals can have an impact on the internet, just like the actions groups and individuals in UO or EVE could have an impact on their respective games. Here's a wonderful story from EVE, just 2 guys 1 Ponzi Scheme. But in the end, you're still part of that much larger group and your actions will determine how other players view you (even more so if the game is a FFA PvP with full loot). That is why these MMOs had a much better community.
The notion of "forced grouping" is silly to begin with, but something solo players have began to twist around thinking they'd have to be 24/7 with other players doing heroics. That's ridiculous, and definitively not what grouping used to be (and still is in games like EVE).
But yes, soloers are the problems. WAR, AOC, AION, Rift, SWTOR, and all the other clones that are attempting to imitate WoW's success, they're all solo-centric MMORPGs. Because that's what these players want.
Edit: I know that EVE is not a forced grouping MMORPG. I had put quotation marks around "forced" because I dislike the notion (as pointed above) but it's the best word to use for some players to understand sadly. Like with "hardcore" or any other words that's been twisted around times and times again to mean something entirely different from it's original intended purpose.
Nonsense. The elitism breeded by forced grouping gear centric games was already present in Everquest, which was a forced grouping game from level 1 to max. Your little theory that soloers ruin those games is just wrong. What ruins communities is the forced grouping to grind gear and make your character progress, which achieves the opposite effect than it's supposed to and breeds individualism because you compete with the people of your own team for gear you acquired in a group of 10, 25 or even 40+ people. I've never seen those attitudes except in EQ/WoW clones.
But please, keep on blaming your scapegoat, the soloer, while ignoring the real problems. In the meantime, I'll be playing GW2...
Another strawman, this is so funny, but at the same time its not....
You keep lumping "forced grouping" and "gear centric" with elitists, and that is completly false. First of all, I have never heard a player say he wants to "force" anybody to group with him. We want game mechanics that "encourage" group play. There is a huge difference that you are ignoring.
The players who are "gear centric" are definitly elitist, but the only time they group is for a raid so they can get thier gear, this is not at all the same thing as "encouraged grouping" for quests or PvP.
Your strawman is not built well at all, I just burned it down.
i think you group centric folks are going to have to get over the fact that soloers are not going anywhere. You can cry, whine and moan but the fact is that there is a lot more soloers out there than the group only players. And developers want that bigger piece of pie.
so why do solo players play MMOs? because developers want them to and want their money, and they are creating content to accommodate them. So if you don't like it ... tough. you're going to have to deal with it or YOU are going to have to find something else to play .... not the soloer.
I only wish that not every MMO tried catering to both crowds. I wish more MMOs would pick a crowd and stick to it.
If you like soloing in an MMO, go play a solo friendly MMO, if you like a group dependant MMO you should have a choice to pick up a forced grouping MMO. My problem is that so many MMOs try to be everything to everyone and end up watered down and boring.
So as a forced grouping MMO fan, I wouldn't tell soloers to go play single player games, I'd tell them to find a solo friendly MMO they like and quit trying to push EVERY MMO in the solo friendly direction.
For the sake of argument I would say the same thing to groupcentric players too.
Originally posted by AticusWelles I only wish that not every MMO tried catering to both crowds. I wish more MMOs would pick a crowd and stick to it.
If you like soloing in an MMO, go play a solo friendly MMO, if you like a group dependant MMO you should have a choice to pick up a forced grouping MMO. My problem is that so many MMOs try to be everything to everyone and end up watered down and boring.
So as a forced grouping MMO fan, I wouldn't tell soloers to go play single player games, I'd tell them to find a solo friendly MMO they like and quit trying to push EVERY MMO in the solo friendly direction.
that actually sadly already exists and developers are finding out that if they don't do something fast to cater to more players they will lose money. THAT's why they are mixing the two. Gone are the days where an economy can support one or the other and not both.
Originally posted by AticusWelles I only wish that not every MMO tried catering to both crowds. I wish more MMOs would pick a crowd and stick to it.
If you like soloing in an MMO, go play a solo friendly MMO, if you like a group dependant MMO you should have a choice to pick up a forced grouping MMO. My problem is that so many MMOs try to be everything to everyone and end up watered down and boring.
So as a forced grouping MMO fan, I wouldn't tell soloers to go play single player games, I'd tell them to find a solo friendly MMO they like and quit trying to push EVERY MMO in the solo friendly direction.
By and large soloers are not the ones complaining. Soloers by and large are not on the boards yelling and having a fit. Soloers by and large don't tell the game what to do, they simply don't play it.
Look at the boards for any games. There are very very very few threads about,"this game sucks cause I can't solo," but there are tonnes of "This game sucks because there is not enough grouping, or stop catering to soloers."
The soloers are not making demands of the game, the game is coming after the soloer.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by AticusWelles I only wish that not every MMO tried catering to both crowds. I wish more MMOs would pick a crowd and stick to it.
If you like soloing in an MMO, go play a solo friendly MMO, if you like a group dependant MMO you should have a choice to pick up a forced grouping MMO. My problem is that so many MMOs try to be everything to everyone and end up watered down and boring.
So as a forced grouping MMO fan, I wouldn't tell soloers to go play single player games, I'd tell them to find a solo friendly MMO they like and quit trying to push EVERY MMO in the solo friendly direction.
that actually sadly already exists and developers are finding out that if they don't do something fast to cater to more players they will lose money. THAT's why they are mixing the two. Gone are the days where an economy can support one or the other and not both.
What's sad is it doesn't exist enough, aymore. Every MMO that comes out these days has solo players whining for solo content and most of the time developers are catering to them.
It would be nice to see more developers telling them to go play solo friendly MMOs. If it makes their game niche, so what?
Nintendo went after a niche market with their blue ocean strategy for the Wii, and look at the success they had....why continue floundering and failing in a market that's over saturated and full of failure after failure (red ocean) when you can target a market that there is very little competition in (blue ocean)?
The market is big enough for both to co-exist if every publisher didn't think they could build the next WoW phenom, and fail in the process.
I don't think they're lonely, there just aren't enough of them and they don't have enough content. You beat them relatively quickly and when they're done, there's very little replay value IMO. MMOs have more content added constantly and there are tons of MMOs to choose from. There's little chance of ever running out of available content.
This is really a simple topic, and you people always over anaylize it.
First and foremost MMORPG's is a niche genre. On the other hand people that want online RPG's are not. Single player rpgs should have evolved into oline rpg's. But they didnt. MMORPG's took steps backwards to fill that market. Unfortunatly no mmorpg has even tried to evolve. Its been so long since a new MMORPG has been made most people dont even know what an MMORPG is or could be now.
I dont have a problem with these so called MMO's that are basically online rpgs, What I have a problem with is there hasnt been a real attempt at making an MMORPG in over a decade. There was a market for them over 12 years ago, and there still is a market for them today.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Originally posted by AticusWelles I only wish that not every MMO tried catering to both crowds. I wish more MMOs would pick a crowd and stick to it.
If you like soloing in an MMO, go play a solo friendly MMO, if you like a group dependant MMO you should have a choice to pick up a forced grouping MMO. My problem is that so many MMOs try to be everything to everyone and end up watered down and boring.
So as a forced grouping MMO fan, I wouldn't tell soloers to go play single player games, I'd tell them to find a solo friendly MMO they like and quit trying to push EVERY MMO in the solo friendly direction.
By and large soloers are not the ones complaining. Soloers by and large are not on the boards yelling and having a fit. Soloers by and large don't tell the game what to do, they simply don't play it.
Look at the boards for any games. There are very very very few threads about,"this game sucks cause I can't solo," but there are tonnes of "This game sucks because there is not enough grouping, or stop catering to soloers."
The soloers are not making demands of the game, the game is coming after the soloer.
That's because the soloers were on the prelaunch forums bitching about having solo content built into the core of the game and developers listening to them.
Of course they aren't going to bitch post launch after they've had all their demands met.
Eq1 back in 2000 was my first MMO. It was basicly get group go have fun. I could solo all I want, I just had to accept that I wont level as fast as the people that group and that I wont get the rewards that the people who group did. I was fine with that.
Solo players nowadys equate there monthly sub to feeling entitled to get the same rewards as people who group.
You really see this when people use the "I have a real life excuse". If you are that busy than I have to question why you choose to spend money on a genre that is based on timesinks.........this mentality just boggles my mind.
Originally posted by AticusWelles I only wish that not every MMO tried catering to both crowds. I wish more MMOs would pick a crowd and stick to it.
If you like soloing in an MMO, go play a solo friendly MMO, if you like a group dependant MMO you should have a choice to pick up a forced grouping MMO. My problem is that so many MMOs try to be everything to everyone and end up watered down and boring.
So as a forced grouping MMO fan, I wouldn't tell soloers to go play single player games, I'd tell them to find a solo friendly MMO they like and quit trying to push EVERY MMO in the solo friendly direction.
that actually sadly already exists and developers are finding out that if they don't do something fast to cater to more players they will lose money. THAT's why they are mixing the two. Gone are the days where an economy can support one or the other and not both.
What's sad is it doesn't exist enough, aymore. Every MMO that comes out these days has solo players whining for solo content and most of the time developers are catering to them. It would be nice to see more developers telling them to go play solo friendly MMOs. If it makes their game niche, so what? Nintendo went after a niche market with their blue ocean strategy for the Wii, and look at the success they had....why continue floundering and failing in a market that's over saturated and full of failure after failure (red ocean) when you can target a market that there is very little competition in (blue ocean)? The market is big enough for both to co-exist if every publisher didn't think they could build the next WoW phenom, and fail in the process.
right and that's why every game coming out has nothing but lobby like systems in place to force grouping end game.
because the devs are catering to soloers thats why they have to put into every game a teleporting group finder code to help the lobbyist elitest group/raiders get their endless gear. ALL of the evidence points contrary to your statement i'm afraid. there isn't enough solo non-group non combat RP friendliness in any of these titles today and it shows. Name a single game that's come out since 2009 that has had this, any major title that has had significant solo content end game for any soloer/rper to enjoy?
I've noticed a trend -- and it may not be accurate, which is why I'm mentioning it was just a trend -- that the pvp-minded players are also the ones who seem to like forced grouping the most (or grouping, or suggested grouping...whatever term you prefer, its not meant to be insulting). I don't like pvp a lot at all. I like to solo things.
....
In closing, people know that this genre arose from pnp games...don't tell me you haven't ever played/ran a solo adventure for your friends and tossed in a couple NPC's to aid them. I guess that's not something done as commonly anymore, what with the nature of the changes that descended with 3rd edition...but I know it was really common back in the late 80's and into the 90's, and likely before that. How good would the Dungeon of Dread have been for example, if right after 'Turn to Page 3' it said 'You need 5 other people to buy this book before you continue.'?
Soloing should be only something poeple do while they wait for a group. At the core MMOs are about getting together with others to overcome challanges you couldn't alone, wiether it be a dragon, craving out a city from the wildness, defeating the emeny faction/guild in an epic battle, protecting your crafter as you explore a danagours area for loot, etc...
MMOs are not just about storys, thats what RPGs are for. They are not about killing 100s of mobs and being a badass, thats what FPS and action games are about. They are not about just getting better and better loot thats what you do in Action RPGs. They are about working together with other real poeple to defeat something you couldn't do on your own.
This is why all these Solo happy games since wow came out suck, because they just don't get what makes MMOs work.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
I've noticed a trend -- and it may not be accurate, which is why I'm mentioning it was just a trend -- that the pvp-minded players are also the ones who seem to like forced grouping the most (or grouping, or suggested grouping...whatever term you prefer, its not meant to be insulting). I don't like pvp a lot at all. I like to solo things.
....
In closing, people know that this genre arose from pnp games...don't tell me you haven't ever played/ran a solo adventure for your friends and tossed in a couple NPC's to aid them. I guess that's not something done as commonly anymore, what with the nature of the changes that descended with 3rd edition...but I know it was really common back in the late 80's and into the 90's, and likely before that. How good would the Dungeon of Dread have been for example, if right after 'Turn to Page 3' it said 'You need 5 other people to buy this book before you continue.'?
Soloing should be only something poeple do while they wait for a group. At the core MMOs are about getting together with others to overcome challanges you couldn't alone, wiether it be a dragon, craving out a city from the wildness, defeating the emeny faction/guild in an epic battle, protecting your crafter as you explore a danagours area for loot, etc...
MMOs are not just about storys, thats what RPGs are for. They are not about killing 100s of mobs and being a badass, thats what FPS and action games are about. They are not about just getting better and better loot thats what you do in Action RPGs. They are about working together with other real poeple to defeat something you couldn't do on your own.
This is why all these Solo happy games since wow came out suck, because they just don't get what makes MMOs work.
what is it with this attitude that people seem to want others to do things they clearly dont want to do.
I have no issue with making group content intresting in ways that are not possible in solo and vice versa but this attempt to force someone who really is not intrested in hanging out with someone is coming off as a really desperate lonely selfish and sad. Who wants to sit at the bar with someone who doesnt want to sit at the bar! that is nuts!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I've noticed a trend -- and it may not be accurate, which is why I'm mentioning it was just a trend -- that the pvp-minded players are also the ones who seem to like forced grouping the most (or grouping, or suggested grouping...whatever term you prefer, its not meant to be insulting). I don't like pvp a lot at all. I like to solo things.
....
In closing, people know that this genre arose from pnp games...don't tell me you haven't ever played/ran a solo adventure for your friends and tossed in a couple NPC's to aid them. I guess that's not something done as commonly anymore, what with the nature of the changes that descended with 3rd edition...but I know it was really common back in the late 80's and into the 90's, and likely before that. How good would the Dungeon of Dread have been for example, if right after 'Turn to Page 3' it said 'You need 5 other people to buy this book before you continue.'?
Soloing should be only something poeple do while they wait for a group. At the core MMOs are about getting together with others to overcome challanges you couldn't alone, wiether it be a dragon, craving out a city from the wildness, defeating the emeny faction/guild in an epic battle, protecting your crafter as you explore a danagours area for loot, etc...
MMOs are not just about storys, thats what RPGs are for. They are not about killing 100s of mobs and being a badass, thats what FPS and action games are about. They are not about just getting better and better loot thats what you do in Action RPGs. They are about working together with other real poeple to defeat something you couldn't do on your own.
This is why all these Solo happy games since wow came out suck, because they just don't get what makes MMOs work.
Actually, thats what theyre about for YOU. Not everyone has the same reasons for playing MMOs. There are various reasons for playing an MMO besides grouping. Just to name a few:
Living economy / markets
PvP
Non-PvP competition with others (leaderboards, rankings, achievements, etc)
Persistant worlds with new content added in with updates/expansions
The ability to chat with others while playing. This in no way requires you to group with people. There are other chats besides party chat.
What's funny is it is not thaat developers get told by the players to make more solo content, but that the devs as well as company knows that catering to those that prefer or have only time for solo content is a good idea money wise. Most soloers actually come into the mmos to spend time playing in a world or setting with other players around them, and having the opition to group up with those players when time allows for it or they actually want to. Having content that allows such gamers to enjoy your game means that your game gains even more subs, which means more money overall even if you lose some of the other players for doing it. Yet no where in any definition other than in the demented minds of some gamers, does mmo mean that you should be forced to group with people you do not want to, or have time to do group content just to progress or have fun in the game. Grouping or working with other people in a mmo should be a choice that does grant the player better rewards as well as progression, but should never be the sole form of play or absolute focus of the game. Also alot of games go casual/solo friendly later when the pool of players to do group content dwindles too low to make that content do able, and so having solo content in place relieves the need to spend more time and energy later that could be used on end game content or such.
I've noticed a trend -- and it may not be accurate, which is why I'm mentioning it was just a trend -- that the pvp-minded players are also the ones who seem to like forced grouping the most (or grouping, or suggested grouping...whatever term you prefer, its not meant to be insulting). I don't like pvp a lot at all. I like to solo things.
....
In closing, people know that this genre arose from pnp games...don't tell me you haven't ever played/ran a solo adventure for your friends and tossed in a couple NPC's to aid them. I guess that's not something done as commonly anymore, what with the nature of the changes that descended with 3rd edition...but I know it was really common back in the late 80's and into the 90's, and likely before that. How good would the Dungeon of Dread have been for example, if right after 'Turn to Page 3' it said 'You need 5 other people to buy this book before you continue.'?
Soloing should be only something poeple do while they wait for a group. At the core MMOs are about getting together with others to overcome challanges you couldn't alone, wiether it be a dragon, craving out a city from the wildness, defeating the emeny faction/guild in an epic battle, protecting your crafter as you explore a danagours area for loot, etc...
MMOs are not just about storys, thats what RPGs are for. They are not about killing 100s of mobs and being a badass, thats what FPS and action games are about. They are not about just getting better and better loot thats what you do in Action RPGs. They are about working together with other real poeple to defeat something you couldn't do on your own.
This is why all these Solo happy games since wow came out suck, because they just don't get what makes MMOs work.
what is it with this attitude that people seem to want others to do things they clearly dont want to do.
I have no issue with making group content intresting in ways that are not possible in solo and vice versa but this attempt to force someone who really is not intrested in hanging out with someone is coming off as a really desperate lonely selfish and sad. Who wants to sit at the bar with someone who doesnt want to sit at the bar! that is nuts!
Then don't go to the bar!
Why play a MMO, a game based on grouping, if you don't want to group? If you want to play a solo RPG, play a solo RPG not an MMO and then complain that you can't get the best loot or do the dungoens.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
I've noticed a trend -- and it may not be accurate, which is why I'm mentioning it was just a trend -- that the pvp-minded players are also the ones who seem to like forced grouping the most (or grouping, or suggested grouping...whatever term you prefer, its not meant to be insulting). I don't like pvp a lot at all. I like to solo things.
....
In closing, people know that this genre arose from pnp games...don't tell me you haven't ever played/ran a solo adventure for your friends and tossed in a couple NPC's to aid them. I guess that's not something done as commonly anymore, what with the nature of the changes that descended with 3rd edition...but I know it was really common back in the late 80's and into the 90's, and likely before that. How good would the Dungeon of Dread have been for example, if right after 'Turn to Page 3' it said 'You need 5 other people to buy this book before you continue.'?
Soloing should be only something poeple do while they wait for a group. At the core MMOs are about getting together with others to overcome challanges you couldn't alone, wiether it be a dragon, craving out a city from the wildness, defeating the emeny faction/guild in an epic battle, protecting your crafter as you explore a danagours area for loot, etc...
MMOs are not just about storys, thats what RPGs are for. They are not about killing 100s of mobs and being a badass, thats what FPS and action games are about. They are not about just getting better and better loot thats what you do in Action RPGs. They are about working together with other real poeple to defeat something you couldn't do on your own.
This is why all these Solo happy games since wow came out suck, because they just don't get what makes MMOs work.
Actually you are partially wrong there mmo are about existing as well as playing in a world populated by other players, which you can interact with in a persistent world. It just so hapens that you also interact by grouping up to fight mobs or some omg dragon with them, or they could just screw you by ganking you just before the dragon dies so they get the loot, both should be able to happen in the world of a mmo. MMOs are about existing in a game world with other non-scripted players that make it feel more real, and playing alongside them, or compeating with those players, and developing varied relationships with those people around you. What you talk about is just as small part of what an mmo is, mmo are about intereacting and existing in a online world with other players in real time.
right and that's why every game coming out has nothing but lobby like systems in place to force grouping end game.
because the devs are catering to soloers thats why they have to put into every game a teleporting group finder code to help the lobbyist elitest group/raiders get their endless gear. ALL of the evidence points contrary to your statement i'm afraid. there isn't enough solo non-group non combat RP friendliness in any of these titles today and it shows. Name a single game that's come out since 2009 that has had this, any major title that has had significant solo content end game for any soloer/rper to enjoy?
The way the raid systems are structured in these new mmo's is the problem, not group/solo content. The main problem is you have teired raids, which is the worst system ever introduced. Your on a gear merry-go-round. You have a group of players who complete all of T1, and dont want to do it anymore, because theres no need to. So of course you need some type of group finder.
IMO FFXI (Pre-abyssea) end-game is the gold standard for what end game should be like. All the end game gear was just as good as the new expansion gear, in some cases maybe not as good but your hard earned gear was NEVER outdated. Your LS(Guild) was constantly doing the new and old content, and there was a plethora of options for gear, party to alliance raids intanced and non instanced, open world.
What would a solo friendly end-game entail? I want to hear this. Because by judging from what I have seen from these new style MMO's it would be gather 50,000 rat tails and 75,000 boar hides, or travel to every ??? in every zone (notice I said zones and not a "World"). theoretically end game is group based because it adds a new deminsion to challenging content by forcing you to work with other players. Unfortunatly this has even diminished greatly as group content now is more about playing solo in a group, players really working together in a group has gone the way of the dodo.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I've noticed a trend -- and it may not be accurate, which is why I'm mentioning it was just a trend -- that the pvp-minded players are also the ones who seem to like forced grouping the most (or grouping, or suggested grouping...whatever term you prefer, its not meant to be insulting). I don't like pvp a lot at all. I like to solo things.
....
In closing, people know that this genre arose from pnp games...don't tell me you haven't ever played/ran a solo adventure for your friends and tossed in a couple NPC's to aid them. I guess that's not something done as commonly anymore, what with the nature of the changes that descended with 3rd edition...but I know it was really common back in the late 80's and into the 90's, and likely before that. How good would the Dungeon of Dread have been for example, if right after 'Turn to Page 3' it said 'You need 5 other people to buy this book before you continue.'?
Soloing should be only something poeple do while they wait for a group. At the core MMOs are about getting together with others to overcome challanges you couldn't alone, wiether it be a dragon, craving out a city from the wildness, defeating the emeny faction/guild in an epic battle, protecting your crafter as you explore a danagours area for loot, etc...
MMOs are not just about storys, thats what RPGs are for. They are not about killing 100s of mobs and being a badass, thats what FPS and action games are about. They are not about just getting better and better loot thats what you do in Action RPGs. They are about working together with other real poeple to defeat something you couldn't do on your own.
This is why all these Solo happy games since wow came out suck, because they just don't get what makes MMOs work.
what is it with this attitude that people seem to want others to do things they clearly dont want to do.
I have no issue with making group content intresting in ways that are not possible in solo and vice versa but this attempt to force someone who really is not intrested in hanging out with someone is coming off as a really desperate lonely selfish and sad. Who wants to sit at the bar with someone who doesnt want to sit at the bar! that is nuts!
Then don't go to the bar!
Why play a MMO, a game based on grouping, if you don't want to group? If you want to play a solo RPG, play a solo RPG not an MMO and then complain that you can't get the best loot or do the dungoens.
Or how about you go out to the bar, go play some co-up games, and sit down playing a large scale D&D game session if you want everyone to have to do what you want. No one has said the best gear should be gotten thru group or solo, but that you should have the choice to play either solo or grouped in a world that is populated with other gamers. Also stop with the mmo =groupng bull that is not what mmos are about, they are about existing in a game world with other players at the same time an interacting with them in various ways.
I have to say I understand soloing in MMOs more than I understand people who play Skyrim and bang out hundreds of daggers just to raise their crafting skill.
What's the point of churning out a bunch of junk just to sell it to NPCs until they run out of money?
MMOs offer points of interaction for players beyond just grouping. Some of us like an active economy, some like that added unpredictability that having other people around brings.
As sorry as some most new MMO releases seem to be, I really can't bring myself to invest much time in single player games anymore.
Comments
Agree with you there Loke666 but there's another type of selfishness going on in the gaming community and that's of the hardcore players, they wish that all games be nothing more then hardcore and a time wasters so they can have the best stuff just to strut around with in the lobby type games where everyones hanging out in the big cities waiting for groups.
It's selfish not because of the crap they want to gather and wear to strut around in, it's selfish because they want EVERY game to be like that instead of these games being well balanced for the entire gaming community like they should be. A good example of this is SWTOR. Right now, it's basically a raid only group only game end game. There is nothing but the standard lobby style gameplay in it, standing around waiting for groups for the endless treadmill, it doesn't have any random events, community quests (not in the truest sense of community quests that repeat in an area), or event handling like what one would find in a balanced game where people could continue to not group and still earn currency/gear to progress/improve.
Balance is necessary even in games to get the largest gaming community possible to earn the most money. The gaming companies should be working towards balance not just for the fun of it but also for the good business practice of it, the more players you have the better and catering to niche players doesn't really bring in the money especially for the new games trying to capture WoW players.
Nonsense. The elitism breeded by forced grouping gear centric games was already present in Everquest, which was a forced grouping game from level 1 to max. Your little theory that soloers ruin those games is just wrong. What ruins communities is the forced grouping to grind gear and make your character progress, which achieves the opposite effect than it's supposed to and breeds individualism because you compete with the people of your own team for gear you acquired in a group of 10, 25 or even 40+ people. I've never seen those attitudes except in EQ/WoW clones.
But please, keep on blaming your scapegoat, the soloer, while ignoring the real problems. In the meantime, I'll be playing GW2...
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
The strawman is what Irus said, that people who like to group, want to be in groups 24/7, which is not true.
Your post is laughable at best, basically your claiming to be the ultimate exception, the soloer that groups, the soloer that isnt an elitist, the soloer that ....ect ...ect..
Sorry, Im not buying it.
Another strawman, this is so funny, but at the same time its not....
You keep lumping "forced grouping" and "gear centric" with elitists, and that is completly false. First of all, I have never heard a player say he wants to "force" anybody to group with him. We want game mechanics that "encourage" group play. There is a huge difference that you are ignoring.
The players who are "gear centric" are definitly elitist, but the only time they group is for a raid so they can get thier gear, this is not at all the same thing as "encouraged grouping" for quests or PvP.
Your strawman is not built well at all, I just burned it down.
i think you group centric folks are going to have to get over the fact that soloers are not going anywhere. You can cry, whine and moan but the fact is that there is a lot more soloers out there than the group only players. And developers want that bigger piece of pie.
so why do solo players play MMOs? because developers want them to and want their money, and they are creating content to accommodate them. So if you don't like it ... tough. you're going to have to deal with it or YOU are going to have to find something else to play .... not the soloer.
If you like soloing in an MMO, go play a solo friendly MMO, if you like a group dependant MMO you should have a choice to pick up a forced grouping MMO. My problem is that so many MMOs try to be everything to everyone and end up watered down and boring.
So as a forced grouping MMO fan, I wouldn't tell soloers to go play single player games, I'd tell them to find a solo friendly MMO they like and quit trying to push EVERY MMO in the solo friendly direction.
For the sake of argument I would say the same thing to groupcentric players too.
Because it's entertaining to constantly kill other players.
that actually sadly already exists and developers are finding out that if they don't do something fast to cater to more players they will lose money. THAT's why they are mixing the two. Gone are the days where an economy can support one or the other and not both.
By and large soloers are not the ones complaining. Soloers by and large are not on the boards yelling and having a fit. Soloers by and large don't tell the game what to do, they simply don't play it.
Look at the boards for any games. There are very very very few threads about,"this game sucks cause I can't solo," but there are tonnes of "This game sucks because there is not enough grouping, or stop catering to soloers."
The soloers are not making demands of the game, the game is coming after the soloer.
that actually sadly already exists and developers are finding out that if they don't do something fast to cater to more players they will lose money. THAT's why they are mixing the two. Gone are the days where an economy can support one or the other and not both.
What's sad is it doesn't exist enough, aymore. Every MMO that comes out these days has solo players whining for solo content and most of the time developers are catering to them.It would be nice to see more developers telling them to go play solo friendly MMOs. If it makes their game niche, so what?
Nintendo went after a niche market with their blue ocean strategy for the Wii, and look at the success they had....why continue floundering and failing in a market that's over saturated and full of failure after failure (red ocean) when you can target a market that there is very little competition in (blue ocean)?
The market is big enough for both to co-exist if every publisher didn't think they could build the next WoW phenom, and fail in the process.
I don't think they're lonely, there just aren't enough of them and they don't have enough content. You beat them relatively quickly and when they're done, there's very little replay value IMO. MMOs have more content added constantly and there are tons of MMOs to choose from. There's little chance of ever running out of available content.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Hope: None
This is really a simple topic, and you people always over anaylize it.
First and foremost MMORPG's is a niche genre. On the other hand people that want online RPG's are not. Single player rpgs should have evolved into oline rpg's. But they didnt. MMORPG's took steps backwards to fill that market. Unfortunatly no mmorpg has even tried to evolve. Its been so long since a new MMORPG has been made most people dont even know what an MMORPG is or could be now.
I dont have a problem with these so called MMO's that are basically online rpgs, What I have a problem with is there hasnt been a real attempt at making an MMORPG in over a decade. There was a market for them over 12 years ago, and there still is a market for them today.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
By and large soloers are not the ones complaining. Soloers by and large are not on the boards yelling and having a fit. Soloers by and large don't tell the game what to do, they simply don't play it.
Look at the boards for any games. There are very very very few threads about,"this game sucks cause I can't solo," but there are tonnes of "This game sucks because there is not enough grouping, or stop catering to soloers."
The soloers are not making demands of the game, the game is coming after the soloer.
That's because the soloers were on the prelaunch forums bitching about having solo content built into the core of the game and developers listening to them.Of course they aren't going to bitch post launch after they've had all their demands met.
Eq1 back in 2000 was my first MMO. It was basicly get group go have fun. I could solo all I want, I just had to accept that I wont level as fast as the people that group and that I wont get the rewards that the people who group did. I was fine with that.
Solo players nowadys equate there monthly sub to feeling entitled to get the same rewards as people who group.
You really see this when people use the "I have a real life excuse". If you are that busy than I have to question why you choose to spend money on a genre that is based on timesinks.........this mentality just boggles my mind.
right and that's why every game coming out has nothing but lobby like systems in place to force grouping end game.
because the devs are catering to soloers thats why they have to put into every game a teleporting group finder code to help the lobbyist elitest group/raiders get their endless gear. ALL of the evidence points contrary to your statement i'm afraid. there isn't enough solo non-group non combat RP friendliness in any of these titles today and it shows. Name a single game that's come out since 2009 that has had this, any major title that has had significant solo content end game for any soloer/rper to enjoy?
GUYS!
there is a huge difference between 'content that supports better play with groups' and 'forced grouping'.
Only lonely sociopathic people in denial would want to 'force' people to do something they clearly would rather not do.
If you want to group, then group! you dont need to worry about the solo guy who doesnt like or care about you.
HOWEVER, what the industry should do is make group dynamics different that doing the same thing solo.
Two very different approaches
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Soloing should be only something poeple do while they wait for a group. At the core MMOs are about getting together with others to overcome challanges you couldn't alone, wiether it be a dragon, craving out a city from the wildness, defeating the emeny faction/guild in an epic battle, protecting your crafter as you explore a danagours area for loot, etc...
MMOs are not just about storys, thats what RPGs are for. They are not about killing 100s of mobs and being a badass, thats what FPS and action games are about. They are not about just getting better and better loot thats what you do in Action RPGs. They are about working together with other real poeple to defeat something you couldn't do on your own.
This is why all these Solo happy games since wow came out suck, because they just don't get what makes MMOs work.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
what is it with this attitude that people seem to want others to do things they clearly dont want to do.
I have no issue with making group content intresting in ways that are not possible in solo and vice versa but this attempt to force someone who really is not intrested in hanging out with someone is coming off as a really desperate lonely selfish and sad. Who wants to sit at the bar with someone who doesnt want to sit at the bar! that is nuts!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Actually, thats what theyre about for YOU. Not everyone has the same reasons for playing MMOs. There are various reasons for playing an MMO besides grouping. Just to name a few:
Living economy / markets
PvP
Non-PvP competition with others (leaderboards, rankings, achievements, etc)
Persistant worlds with new content added in with updates/expansions
The ability to chat with others while playing. This in no way requires you to group with people. There are other chats besides party chat.
What's funny is it is not thaat developers get told by the players to make more solo content, but that the devs as well as company knows that catering to those that prefer or have only time for solo content is a good idea money wise. Most soloers actually come into the mmos to spend time playing in a world or setting with other players around them, and having the opition to group up with those players when time allows for it or they actually want to. Having content that allows such gamers to enjoy your game means that your game gains even more subs, which means more money overall even if you lose some of the other players for doing it. Yet no where in any definition other than in the demented minds of some gamers, does mmo mean that you should be forced to group with people you do not want to, or have time to do group content just to progress or have fun in the game. Grouping or working with other people in a mmo should be a choice that does grant the player better rewards as well as progression, but should never be the sole form of play or absolute focus of the game. Also alot of games go casual/solo friendly later when the pool of players to do group content dwindles too low to make that content do able, and so having solo content in place relieves the need to spend more time and energy later that could be used on end game content or such.
Then don't go to the bar!
Why play a MMO, a game based on grouping, if you don't want to group? If you want to play a solo RPG, play a solo RPG not an MMO and then complain that you can't get the best loot or do the dungoens.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Actually you are partially wrong there mmo are about existing as well as playing in a world populated by other players, which you can interact with in a persistent world. It just so hapens that you also interact by grouping up to fight mobs or some omg dragon with them, or they could just screw you by ganking you just before the dragon dies so they get the loot, both should be able to happen in the world of a mmo. MMOs are about existing in a game world with other non-scripted players that make it feel more real, and playing alongside them, or compeating with those players, and developing varied relationships with those people around you. What you talk about is just as small part of what an mmo is, mmo are about intereacting and existing in a online world with other players in real time.
The way the raid systems are structured in these new mmo's is the problem, not group/solo content. The main problem is you have teired raids, which is the worst system ever introduced. Your on a gear merry-go-round. You have a group of players who complete all of T1, and dont want to do it anymore, because theres no need to. So of course you need some type of group finder.
IMO FFXI (Pre-abyssea) end-game is the gold standard for what end game should be like. All the end game gear was just as good as the new expansion gear, in some cases maybe not as good but your hard earned gear was NEVER outdated. Your LS(Guild) was constantly doing the new and old content, and there was a plethora of options for gear, party to alliance raids intanced and non instanced, open world.
What would a solo friendly end-game entail? I want to hear this. Because by judging from what I have seen from these new style MMO's it would be gather 50,000 rat tails and 75,000 boar hides, or travel to every ??? in every zone (notice I said zones and not a "World"). theoretically end game is group based because it adds a new deminsion to challenging content by forcing you to work with other players. Unfortunatly this has even diminished greatly as group content now is more about playing solo in a group, players really working together in a group has gone the way of the dodo.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Or how about you go out to the bar, go play some co-up games, and sit down playing a large scale D&D game session if you want everyone to have to do what you want. No one has said the best gear should be gotten thru group or solo, but that you should have the choice to play either solo or grouped in a world that is populated with other gamers. Also stop with the mmo =groupng bull that is not what mmos are about, they are about existing in a game world with other players at the same time an interacting with them in various ways.
I have to say I understand soloing in MMOs more than I understand people who play Skyrim and bang out hundreds of daggers just to raise their crafting skill.
What's the point of churning out a bunch of junk just to sell it to NPCs until they run out of money?
MMOs offer points of interaction for players beyond just grouping. Some of us like an active economy, some like that added unpredictability that having other people around brings.
As sorry as some most new MMO releases seem to be, I really can't bring myself to invest much time in single player games anymore.