Consider how alive FFXI was. It is by design a "group" game, and every player in it MUST group or they won't be able to progress. It had a huge community for being a group-required game. It also suffered from all those "group-required" game flaws, such as long wait times to get a group, inability to progress if your friends/group mates weren't on, and reliance on others means reliant on stupid people...
Making games more solo friendly was merely a way to get rid of the above flaws. Now we have learned that making a game solo friendly can lead to its own set of problems...
I think the main point of all this is that it related to a rather pointed flaw in people themselves, or mayhaps just a trait:
If you came upon a real life problem that needed to be solved, how likely are you going to be grouping up with random people next to you to try and solve it?
My guess? Most people are going to try to solo the issue.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
The worst part of it is that both sides of the arguement are basically saying the samething which has valid points regardless of personal opinion on the points. Soloers want to be part of the game world to play along side other players, and to not be excluded completely from playing by thier chosen (maybe even forced) style play. Yet the groupers want there to be more reasons to group up for content or more incentives to make grouping a viable option for leveling by more players. The issue is that to many players it is not about community or playing with other players till they hit level cap, since well the game does not start till then anyways., and so leveeling solo allows them to maximise the rate at which they level. Also it is not the soloers that leave a game actually as most solo players will be playing thru all the contennt of the game, it is the speed levelers that rush to the cap that leave in droves when they arrive at the cap with few people to play wwith or no endgame content to play. Speed levelers ae not the same as soloers as they have two different goals (one wants to reach end game as quickly as possible, and the other wanting to play the game alone when time permitss them.), and a speed leveler will shift styles to the most efficent style of play to get to cap regardless of what it is. Also i have seen these so called soloers that whine for more solo content, and they are not soloers at all actually, most being speed levelers that want to be able to get to cap fast an then proceed to whine about the lack of end game prior to leaving the game.
Another thign is that like groupers only a very small sub-set of mmo solo players want to play solo all the time, with many of the solo an groupers wanting to to have both options availible to them. As i have been saying the biggest issues with group content is the reward gained compared to the time invested (and fustrations of some of the thgins that happen in the groups.) in doing them is just not worthwhile to that many people. The devs need to look at the rate they are making ht eplayer base level at right now an either slow the rate down to make the rewards for group content more worthwhile, or up the rewards to compensate for the differnce in leveling pace we have as well as many of the ills of grouping that makes it unpopular to do with strangers.). The other thing is that many players both solo an group based players still group up in mmos actually, but they refuse to do that with pug players that they do not know unless they absolutely have to. I also know many solo players that came into mmo wth games like rift an wow that played them like a single player rpg or 3d D&D game, but shifted as they hit cap to playing the game as a massive grouping game, with stil doing alot of soloing too. Very few players in mmo stay as soloers in mmos with the vast majority switching to group styles at cap, or merely soloing as a short cut to get to the end game.
I consider myself a solo player and i can tell you why I hate games that emphasis group over solo.
I personally hate being on someone elses' time. I like being able to log in do what I want to do and log the fuck out. If I choose to group up, I choose to do so BECAUSE I want to not because I have to. When i played aion, I used to do world bosses and that shit use to drive me nuts because people were never on time and so you had to stand around waiting for people which I extremely hate.
A lot of people are jerks, annoying and downright stupid. I generally like to minimize my time around those types of players.
I personally don't mind if you make content for group, just don't make it the focus of the game. So like the article said, if I leveled to max on my own, I shouldn't have to rely on groups at max. you either emphasis at level 1 or you don't but don't make it at level cap.
BTW I like good group content. What that means is challenging content that requires the muscle between your brain, not the crap that 99% of all MMO have called raids. So of my best gaming experience was beating 6 man content in aion as oppose to the 20+ world boss raids in the game,which just amounted to being a mindless spam your best skill while barely moving.
Also who said that MMOs are about the type of content that would be in the game? The only definition of MMO=massively mutliplayer online at no point did it say Massively multiplegroup online, as such solo or grouping it doesn't not matter. Just because grouping exist as a way to inflate how long it takes you to get gear which in turn means you pay more money doesn't make your perfered method of playing better than mine.
Not sure why OP claim that solo players play MMO's.
It is rather why lots of players whant to hunt,fight monsters solo rather than in a group.
I'm not going to guess whay that is,but one thing is for sure,those players might stay longer whithin the games if there was not the raid/group based endgame gear grind.
So my guess is that future games will have some endgame play for those that dont like raids.
I consider myself a solo player and i can tell you why I hate games that emphasis group over solo.
I personally hate being on someone elses' time. I like being able to log in do what I want to do and log the fuck out. If I choose to group up, I choose to do so BECAUSE I want to not because I have to. When i played aion, I used to do world bosses and that shit use to drive me nuts because people were never on time and so you had to stand around waiting for people which I extremely hate.
A lot of people are jerks, annoying and downright stupid. I generally like to minimize my time around those types of players.
I personally don't mind if you make content for group, just don't make it the focus of the game. So like the article said, if I leveled to max on my own, I shouldn't have to rely on groups at max. you either emphasis at level 1 or you don't but don't make it at level cap.
BTW I like good group content. What that means is challenging content that requires the muscle between your brain, not the crap that 99% of all MMO have called raids. So of my best gaming experience was beating 6 man content in aion as oppose to the 20+ world boss raids in the game,which just amounted to being a mindless spam your best skill while barely moving.
Also who said that MMOs are about the type of content that would be in the game? The only definition of MMO=massively mutliplayer online at no point did it say Massively multiplegroup online, as such solo or grouping it doesn't not matter. Just because grouping exist as a way to inflate how long it takes you to get gear which in turn means you pay more money doesn't make your perfered method of playing better than mine.
First, your playing the wrong games, that much is certain. Somebody that hates other players as much as you, is just torturing yourself with MMOs.
Second, your making the same assumptions that so many other soloers are doing. You link group content with raiding, and that is a strawman of the worst kind.
What about dungeons? World bosses? What about epic quests? What about PvP?
I wish that besides the RP servers they would dedicate some solo servers as well for people who mainly play by themselves.
What would the point of that be?
PvP server for those that like pvp 24/7.
Roleplay server for those that like to be in character and play the role.
PvE-G server for those that want to group.
PvE-S server for those that want to play solo. (allowing for the devs to make the group content in solo content)
Everyone is playing with those of like mind. Everyone gets what they want.
Doesn't work. Most solo players do like grouping even if it isn't to often. You're not adding choice with something like this you are removing it. To group you'd now have to reroll on a different server and etc.
I wish that besides the RP servers they would dedicate some solo servers as well for people who mainly play by themselves.
What would the point of that be?
PvP server for those that like pvp 24/7.
Roleplay server for those that like to be in character and play the role.
PvE-G server for those that want to group.
PvE-S server for those that want to play solo. (allowing for the devs to make the group content in solo content)
Everyone is playing with those of like mind. Everyone gets what they want.
Doesn't work. Most solo players do like grouping even if it isn't to often. You're not adding choice with something like this you are removing it. To group you'd now have to reroll on a different server and etc.
I somehow missed Loke's comment, and I think that is a freakin awsome idea!
Why not have a solo server? It makes perfect since, you can have all the solo game mechanics you dream of, why would any soloer be against that?
You cant have it both ways, your comment only proves what I have said all along, soloers are selfish. You want it all, and you dont care if players who prefer group content suffer for it.
You talk about choice, but only for soloers, while taking away choices for players who dont solo. The hypocrisy from the solo crowd is amazing!
I consider myself a solo player and i can tell you why I hate games that emphasis group over solo.
I personally hate being on someone elses' time. I like being able to log in do what I want to do and log the fuck out. If I choose to group up, I choose to do so BECAUSE I want to not because I have to. When i played aion, I used to do world bosses and that shit use to drive me nuts because people were never on time and so you had to stand around waiting for people which I extremely hate.
A lot of people are jerks, annoying and downright stupid. I generally like to minimize my time around those types of players.
I personally don't mind if you make content for group, just don't make it the focus of the game. So like the article said, if I leveled to max on my own, I shouldn't have to rely on groups at max. you either emphasis at level 1 or you don't but don't make it at level cap.
BTW I like good group content. What that means is challenging content that requires the muscle between your brain, not the crap that 99% of all MMO have called raids. So of my best gaming experience was beating 6 man content in aion as oppose to the 20+ world boss raids in the game,which just amounted to being a mindless spam your best skill while barely moving.
Also who said that MMOs are about the type of content that would be in the game? The only definition of MMO=massively mutliplayer online at no point did it say Massively multiplegroup online, as such solo or grouping it doesn't not matter. Just because grouping exist as a way to inflate how long it takes you to get gear which in turn means you pay more money doesn't make your perfered method of playing better than mine.
First, your playing the wrong games, that much is certain. Somebody that hates other players as much as you, is just torturing yourself with MMOs.
Second, your making the same assumptions that so many other soloers are doing. You link group content with raiding, and that is a strawman of the worst kind.
What about dungeons? World bosses? What about epic quests? What about PvP?
Than i would ay most players in mmo are in the wrong game as he/she only hates dealing with the problematic, annoying, and just largely worthless players that you see alot (a newbie is not this as they are learning, it is the players that just are annoying and egotistic that fall into this group for many players.). She/he evenn said they like to group even if it is on ttheir own time and in content that is worth the investment of time they put into it. I am the same way as badly made group content (quests, instances, raids, pvp, or what not.) ruins the experince of the party play when you do it, but good well made content improves it. The fact of not wanting to be on someone else time-frame is pretty well pervasive in that no one wants to have to wait to enjoy their entertainment, also this is just as common in group content an raiding in that many players will actually almost kick or leave if it takes too long to get thru.
Axtually he/she is linking more the fact of having to give up their own ability to enjoy a game by having to do group content that makes them have to deal with players that are not going to improve their own enjoyment of the game. THis is true of all group content in that you need all the players involved to mesh or gel well to have a good experince, or some of them will keep quite or rush thru the content to get thru it, as they find their partymates ruining their own enjoyment. All of the content for grouping you listed have the bad habit of requiring the player to hand over the fate of their enjoyment of the night to several other players (they might know or not know.), and so runs the rish of completely ruining their evening of gaming an relaxing just to accomadate other players desire to group. Also what they are looking at is challenging content for grouping which is commonly the domain of raiding in most mmos, as most players see small group instances as rather lackluster an easy comparitively.
So long as the player is enjoying themselves in the world of the mmo regardless of if they are grouping wiht others, talking, or merely just being a radom person out in the world playing, than they wre playing the game correctly. They are being apart of a massive gaame world populated with players, that allows them to interact with other players in this game world, but in no way does the game have to force a player to interact with other players to be playing mmos correctly. Like in the real world how you live your life is up to you weither you are a hermit in the deep forest or montains, or you are a social butterfly of a city's nightlife. Most players (on eitherside) do not care hoe you play your game in mmos so long as you do not impead their enjoyment of the game as well, but some soloers an groupers have this desire to show somehow that their way of playing is the only correct way of doing it.
I think the main point of all this is that it related to a rather pointed flaw in people themselves, or mayhaps just a trait:
If you came upon a real life problem that needed to be solved, how likely are you going to be grouping up with random people next to you to try and solve it?
My guess? Most people are going to try to solo the issue.
Extremely likely, because most real life problems of serious consequence REQUIRE the concerted effort of multiple parties in order to solve.
If I and a group of random hikers come across a black bear in the woods that is in the process of mauling some kid, I'm not likely to say "Hey you guys back off.... I got this bear..... don't exp leach off me!" ...... I'm likely to say "Hey there are a dozen of us, if we all work together, we might be able to scare it off...grab some rocks and fallen logs"
Unless they are foolish, most people in real life realize it's generaly alot safer and more effective to work together to tackle most (though not all) serious problems. Even when it's not, people have a tendency to group together in order to feel secure. Millions of years of instinct as pack animals still has a deeply ingrained effect on our psyche.
It's only in video games does this principle tend to get turned on it's head.
It's only in video games does this principle tend to get turned on it's head.
And most people realize this is just a game and ultimately, is nothing but a waste of free time. It doesn't matter. Anyone who takes this stuff that seriously probably has other issues they ought to be dealing with.
It's only in video games does this principle tend to get turned on it's head.
And most people realize this is just a game and ultimately, is nothing but a waste of free time. It doesn't matter. Anyone who takes this stuff that seriously probably has other issues they ought to be dealing with.
Was just answering the direct question asked by the poster.
I wish that besides the RP servers they would dedicate some solo servers as well for people who mainly play by themselves.
What would the point of that be?
PvP server for those that like pvp 24/7.
Roleplay server for those that like to be in character and play the role.
PvE-G server for those that want to group.
PvE-S server for those that want to play solo. (allowing for the devs to make the group content in solo content)
Everyone is playing with those of like mind. Everyone gets what they want.
Doesn't work. Most solo players do like grouping even if it isn't to often. You're not adding choice with something like this you are removing it. To group you'd now have to reroll on a different server and etc.
A solo player that groups.......really.....really?
Lets run with it....if a solo grouper was on a server with other solo groupers how would this not work? Seems there would be a whole server of like minded players. Win win for all.
It's only in video games does this principle tend to get turned on it's head.
And most people realize this is just a game and ultimately, is nothing but a waste of free time. It doesn't matter. Anyone who takes this stuff that seriously probably has other issues they ought to be dealing with.
Anytime spent pursuing your hobby isn't a waste. You spent your time entertaining yourself and maybe others. The stuff I leave at the bottom of the driveway once a week is waste. The stuff at the bottom of my toilet after using it is waste. It seems to me you need to find a hobby you enjoy so you don't view your time spent as a waste.
Comments
Based on the percentages in most games, they might set aside a single group server and that would probably be dead most of the time.
There just aren't that many groupers.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
The people who I find still playing these so called dead games are the ones who like to be in guilds and do groups and such.
Solo players are usually the first ones to jump ship.
Because they have other places to go, because just about every game out there is made with them in mind.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Consider how alive FFXI was. It is by design a "group" game, and every player in it MUST group or they won't be able to progress. It had a huge community for being a group-required game. It also suffered from all those "group-required" game flaws, such as long wait times to get a group, inability to progress if your friends/group mates weren't on, and reliance on others means reliant on stupid people...
Making games more solo friendly was merely a way to get rid of the above flaws. Now we have learned that making a game solo friendly can lead to its own set of problems...
I say pick your poison.
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
I think the main point of all this is that it related to a rather pointed flaw in people themselves, or mayhaps just a trait:
If you came upon a real life problem that needed to be solved, how likely are you going to be grouping up with random people next to you to try and solve it?
My guess? Most people are going to try to solo the issue.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
The worst part of it is that both sides of the arguement are basically saying the samething which has valid points regardless of personal opinion on the points. Soloers want to be part of the game world to play along side other players, and to not be excluded completely from playing by thier chosen (maybe even forced) style play. Yet the groupers want there to be more reasons to group up for content or more incentives to make grouping a viable option for leveling by more players. The issue is that to many players it is not about community or playing with other players till they hit level cap, since well the game does not start till then anyways., and so leveeling solo allows them to maximise the rate at which they level. Also it is not the soloers that leave a game actually as most solo players will be playing thru all the contennt of the game, it is the speed levelers that rush to the cap that leave in droves when they arrive at the cap with few people to play wwith or no endgame content to play. Speed levelers ae not the same as soloers as they have two different goals (one wants to reach end game as quickly as possible, and the other wanting to play the game alone when time permitss them.), and a speed leveler will shift styles to the most efficent style of play to get to cap regardless of what it is. Also i have seen these so called soloers that whine for more solo content, and they are not soloers at all actually, most being speed levelers that want to be able to get to cap fast an then proceed to whine about the lack of end game prior to leaving the game.
Another thign is that like groupers only a very small sub-set of mmo solo players want to play solo all the time, with many of the solo an groupers wanting to to have both options availible to them. As i have been saying the biggest issues with group content is the reward gained compared to the time invested (and fustrations of some of the thgins that happen in the groups.) in doing them is just not worthwhile to that many people. The devs need to look at the rate they are making ht eplayer base level at right now an either slow the rate down to make the rewards for group content more worthwhile, or up the rewards to compensate for the differnce in leveling pace we have as well as many of the ills of grouping that makes it unpopular to do with strangers.). The other thing is that many players both solo an group based players still group up in mmos actually, but they refuse to do that with pug players that they do not know unless they absolutely have to. I also know many solo players that came into mmo wth games like rift an wow that played them like a single player rpg or 3d D&D game, but shifted as they hit cap to playing the game as a massive grouping game, with stil doing alot of soloing too. Very few players in mmo stay as soloers in mmos with the vast majority switching to group styles at cap, or merely soloing as a short cut to get to the end game.
I consider myself a solo player and i can tell you why I hate games that emphasis group over solo.
I personally hate being on someone elses' time. I like being able to log in do what I want to do and log the fuck out. If I choose to group up, I choose to do so BECAUSE I want to not because I have to. When i played aion, I used to do world bosses and that shit use to drive me nuts because people were never on time and so you had to stand around waiting for people which I extremely hate.
A lot of people are jerks, annoying and downright stupid. I generally like to minimize my time around those types of players.
I personally don't mind if you make content for group, just don't make it the focus of the game. So like the article said, if I leveled to max on my own, I shouldn't have to rely on groups at max. you either emphasis at level 1 or you don't but don't make it at level cap.
BTW I like good group content. What that means is challenging content that requires the muscle between your brain, not the crap that 99% of all MMO have called raids. So of my best gaming experience was beating 6 man content in aion as oppose to the 20+ world boss raids in the game,which just amounted to being a mindless spam your best skill while barely moving.
Also who said that MMOs are about the type of content that would be in the game? The only definition of MMO=massively mutliplayer online at no point did it say Massively multiplegroup online, as such solo or grouping it doesn't not matter. Just because grouping exist as a way to inflate how long it takes you to get gear which in turn means you pay more money doesn't make your perfered method of playing better than mine.
Not sure why OP claim that solo players play MMO's.
It is rather why lots of players whant to hunt,fight monsters solo rather than in a group.
I'm not going to guess whay that is,but one thing is for sure,those players might stay longer whithin the games if there was not the raid/group based endgame gear grind.
So my guess is that future games will have some endgame play for those that dont like raids.
First, your playing the wrong games, that much is certain. Somebody that hates other players as much as you, is just torturing yourself with MMOs.
Second, your making the same assumptions that so many other soloers are doing. You link group content with raiding, and that is a strawman of the worst kind.
What about dungeons? World bosses? What about epic quests? What about PvP?
Doesn't work. Most solo players do like grouping even if it isn't to often. You're not adding choice with something like this you are removing it. To group you'd now have to reroll on a different server and etc.
I somehow missed Loke's comment, and I think that is a freakin awsome idea!
Why not have a solo server? It makes perfect since, you can have all the solo game mechanics you dream of, why would any soloer be against that?
You cant have it both ways, your comment only proves what I have said all along, soloers are selfish. You want it all, and you dont care if players who prefer group content suffer for it.
You talk about choice, but only for soloers, while taking away choices for players who dont solo. The hypocrisy from the solo crowd is amazing!
Than i would ay most players in mmo are in the wrong game as he/she only hates dealing with the problematic, annoying, and just largely worthless players that you see alot (a newbie is not this as they are learning, it is the players that just are annoying and egotistic that fall into this group for many players.). She/he evenn said they like to group even if it is on ttheir own time and in content that is worth the investment of time they put into it. I am the same way as badly made group content (quests, instances, raids, pvp, or what not.) ruins the experince of the party play when you do it, but good well made content improves it. The fact of not wanting to be on someone else time-frame is pretty well pervasive in that no one wants to have to wait to enjoy their entertainment, also this is just as common in group content an raiding in that many players will actually almost kick or leave if it takes too long to get thru.
Axtually he/she is linking more the fact of having to give up their own ability to enjoy a game by having to do group content that makes them have to deal with players that are not going to improve their own enjoyment of the game. THis is true of all group content in that you need all the players involved to mesh or gel well to have a good experince, or some of them will keep quite or rush thru the content to get thru it, as they find their partymates ruining their own enjoyment. All of the content for grouping you listed have the bad habit of requiring the player to hand over the fate of their enjoyment of the night to several other players (they might know or not know.), and so runs the rish of completely ruining their evening of gaming an relaxing just to accomadate other players desire to group. Also what they are looking at is challenging content for grouping which is commonly the domain of raiding in most mmos, as most players see small group instances as rather lackluster an easy comparitively.
So long as the player is enjoying themselves in the world of the mmo regardless of if they are grouping wiht others, talking, or merely just being a radom person out in the world playing, than they wre playing the game correctly. They are being apart of a massive gaame world populated with players, that allows them to interact with other players in this game world, but in no way does the game have to force a player to interact with other players to be playing mmos correctly. Like in the real world how you live your life is up to you weither you are a hermit in the deep forest or montains, or you are a social butterfly of a city's nightlife. Most players (on eitherside) do not care hoe you play your game in mmos so long as you do not impead their enjoyment of the game as well, but some soloers an groupers have this desire to show somehow that their way of playing is the only correct way of doing it.
Extremely likely, because most real life problems of serious consequence REQUIRE the concerted effort of multiple parties in order to solve.
If I and a group of random hikers come across a black bear in the woods that is in the process of mauling some kid, I'm not likely to say "Hey you guys back off.... I got this bear..... don't exp leach off me!" ...... I'm likely to say "Hey there are a dozen of us, if we all work together, we might be able to scare it off...grab some rocks and fallen logs"
Unless they are foolish, most people in real life realize it's generaly alot safer and more effective to work together to tackle most (though not all) serious problems. Even when it's not, people have a tendency to group together in order to feel secure. Millions of years of instinct as pack animals still has a deeply ingrained effect on our psyche.
It's only in video games does this principle tend to get turned on it's head.
most people who are hard core about games having groups just want someone to boss.
At least that is what I have found.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
And most people realize this is just a game and ultimately, is nothing but a waste of free time. It doesn't matter. Anyone who takes this stuff that seriously probably has other issues they ought to be dealing with.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Was just answering the direct question asked by the poster.
A solo player that groups.......really.....really?
Lets run with it....if a solo grouper was on a server with other solo groupers how would this not work? Seems there would be a whole server of like minded players. Win win for all.